[united_99]

That goal had far more to do with the quality of the cross than it did the finish (I'm still not entirely convinced it wasn't an OG) I don't think you'll find many posts in the Valencia thread pointing out that he won us our first point of the season. Instead, they will focus on his overall performance. Which is as it should be.

Re our strikers. Yes, they never looked like scoring. Are we expecting them to finish off goals they create for themselves? Or perhaps the other players in the team are supposed to create chances for the strikers to finish. Our number 10, for example.

Well the strikers didn't get much service but I clearly remember incidents with both RvP and Rooney where they received the ball, even had space, but did absolutely nothing apart from losing the ball.

Everyone has reasons ppl blame them, with Mata it's the price tag, so whatever he does ppl will expect more.
At the same time with Rooney it's his wages and him being captain now that ppl expect more.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Well the strikers didn't get much service but I clearly remember incidents with both RvP and Rooney where they received the ball, even had space, but did absolutely nothing apart from losing the ball.

Everyone has reasons ppl blame them, with Mata it's the price tag, so whatever he does ppl will expect more.
At the same time with Rooney it's his wages and him being captain now that ppl expect more.

The same applies to every one of our attacking players. It was a bit of a theme for the game as a whole!

I just think that it's incredibly unfair to pick on our strikers for that particular performance. The formation we chose was supposed to allow the two of them play as out and out strikers, yet the service they got was diabolical. Like I said, not a single clear chance created for either of them over 90 minutes. That's atrocious. Obviously, they both had chances to try and create something out of nothing but it was invariably against a packed defence because our inept midfield took so long to get the ball to them that Sunderland always had loads of time to get back and defend.

For me, the main sinners were Cleverley and Fletcher but Mata was given a free role to link midfield and attack so has to share the stick they've both been getting for our painfully laboured approach work. In that scenario I don't really get why so many people are laying into Rooney and so few criticising Mata. The difference in the levels of vitriol between these two threads is amazing and doesn't reflect what actually happened on the pitch.

 

[Nighteyes]

Yep, Rooney plays like Mata has 10 games in a row and people still back him to bounce back. Mata has two bad games and all of a sudden he should be dropped. There's this tendency to play down players who people feel generally excited about.

This has got to be a joke surely?

The Rooney thread has mostly been full of people calling him a fat useless wanker (or words to that effect) for well over a year. People who brought up his goals and assists record were ignored in favour of pointing out a ball he might have miscontrolled.

 

[Sarni]

This has got to be a joke surely?

The Rooney thread has mostly been full of people calling him a fat useless wanker (or words to that effect) for well over a year. People who brought up his goals and assists record were ignored in favour of pointing out a ball he might have miscontrolled.

Not talking about the general notion as Rooney has been disliked for a while by a number of posts, just the certain type of posters on here who will defend Rooneys and Valencias (and some other players) but will play down players like Mata, Kagawa etc., for some reason.

 

[Ringo 07]

I think when Giggs dropped Mata for his first game in charge as manager I think he was making a statement that he doesn't rate him......Mata has played some great games when we are spanked inferior teams.....but from what I have seen of him since last January i'd be stunned if he's not dropped soon......I hope he can prove me wrong obviously though

 

[Vato]

I can't help to think that a few posters' opinions on Mata are being swayed due to Gary Neville not rating him.

 

[united_99]

The same applies to every one of our attacking players. It was a bit of a theme for the game as a whole!

I just think that it's incredibly unfair to pick on our strikers for that particular performance. The formation we chose was supposed to allow the two of them play as out and out strikers, yet the service they got was diabolical. Like I said, not a single clear chance created for either of them over 90 minutes. That's atrocious. Obviously, they both had chances to try and create something out of nothing but it was invariably against a packed defence because our inept midfield took so long to get the ball to them that Sunderland always had loads of time to get back and defend.

For me, the main sinners were Cleverley and Fletcher but Mata was given a free role to link midfield and attack so has to share the stick they've both been getting for our painfully laboured approach work. In that scenario I don't really get why so many people are laying into Rooney and so few criticising Mata. The difference in the levels of vitriol between these two threads is amazing and doesn't reflect what actually happened on the pitch.

Well if our 2 strikers were advised to just play as out and out strikers then it is even more unfair on Mata as he was left alone with a useless midfield behind him. But as far as I could see Rooney and Mata were dropping deep and God knows what RvP was doing, he was annoying me the most yesterday.

Mata has only been here for half a season whereas some ppl are just fed up with Rooney being hot and cold for years. He has been living on past glories for more than 2 years now. In 2012/13 we relied on RvP and last season apart from first few games where he was playing for a new contract he was average and even more useless than Fellaini in some (Bayern, Everton for example). He has lost a lot of his positive attributes which made him the player he once was. Now if he scores a tap-in and is not completely useless, his fanbois like yourself are happy. So pls let's not pretend as ppl are blaming poor Rooney for nothing. Difference between Mata and Rooney is that since Mata has been here he has been the better player (which doesn't say much as Rooney has been useless), but while Mata still has the excuse for settling in, Rooney has been below-par for at least 2 years now.

 

[united_99]

I can't help to think that a few posters' opinions on Mata are being swayed due to Gary Neville not rating him.

Definitely, and that everyone's darling Mourinho got rid off him.

 

[Walrus]

I can't help to think that a few posters' opinions on Mata are being swayed due to Gary Neville not rating him.

My opinion has been swayed by the fact that he simply hasnt performed as well for us as his reputation and price tag would suggest. We have changed to a formation which he is meant to be one of the key beneficiaries of, but he is anonymous for a lot of the game.

I think he needs to be a bit more disciplined in his play - stick in the hole, stop dropping so deep or pushing so far ahead of the strikers.

That said, the strikers also need to do a better job of creating space for him - drag the opposition defenders around, and show some better movement for Mata to pick them out.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I can't help to think that a few posters' opinions on Mata are being swayed due to Gary Neville not rating him.

I don't watch the Sky Sports punditry so not guilty on that score. Admittedly the fact that one of the shrewdest managers in the business deemed him surplus to requirements does set a few alarm bells ringing. But the main fact is that he has not played very well for United in games that matter irrespective of his displays for his former club. Admittedly he has joined United in difficult circumstances and he may come good as the team improves, but he needs to be assessed on an objective basis like the rest, without qualifications for him being a nice guy or Chelsea's player of the season under Rafa.

 

[Randall Flagg]

I can't help to think that a few posters' opinions on Mata are being swayed due to Gary Neville not rating him.

I think its more that fact he hasnt been anywhere near his best since his move, although even with this I am impressed with his goal and assist return.

But he has come into a bad situation. He has joined the worst positioned Man Utd for 25 odd years.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I've been critical of him of late but yesterday he was one of the positives. He got involved a lot more which is what we've needed from him. His generally was tidy without being exceptional and he got a goal.

 

[NotoriousISSY]

Since he joined only Rooney has scored more PL goals (9) for United than Mata (7).

Since Mata joined no one has more PL assists than Mata (4).

The most depressing part is how those figures aren't close to what he was producing at Chelsea and how disjointed our attacking players are. He should definitely be performing better, he should definitely offer more threat as a £37m player BUT there are several other who fall into a similar category but because they weren't a David Moyes signing/previously part of a winning team with us, they get out of jail free a bit.

I think he'll end up having a decent season and all of the early moaners are going to look back with palms on faces.

 

[united_99]

Since he joined only Rooney has scored more PL goals (9) for United than Mata (7).

Since Mata joined no one has more PL assists than Mata (4).

The most depressing part is how those figures aren't close to what he was producing at Chelsea and how disjointed our attacking players are. He should definitely be performing better, he should definitely offer more threat as a £37m player BUT there are several other who fall into a similar category but because they weren't a David Moyes signing/previously part of a winning team with us, they get out of jail free a bit.

I think he'll end up having a decent season and all of the early moaners are going to look back with palms on faces.

With a couple of them probably penalties which Mata won.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He looks more like a support striker than the type of player who can pull strings between the lines. Great in the box, not so great outside it.

I actually think we'd have looked better on Sunday with Mata much closer to Rooney and Kagawa or Januzaj as our attacking midfielder, with RvP on the bench.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

He's probably been our most productive player the past six months, how are people labeling him a poor signing?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

With a couple of them probably penalties which Mata won.

Rooney stopped taking our pens long before we signed Mata.

 

[Raees]

He looks more like a support striker than the type of player who can pull strings between the lines. Great in the box, not so great outside it.

I actually think we'd have looked better on Sunday with Mata much closer to Rooney and Kagawa or Januzaj as our attacking midfielder, with RvP on the bench.

Not a bad suggestion to be honest.

 

[united_99]

Rooney stopped taking our pens long before we signed Mata.

Maybe. But Mata won a pen against Aston Villa which Rooney converted. RvP was probably injured then.

 

[buckooo1978]

I've been a critic myself and haven't been bowled over by Mata.

I think is certainly an excellent footballer but not one we needed given our options at number 10.

Being objective though - which United players have impressed in 2014 since Mata arrived? De Gea is genuinely the only player who I feel has played well. I think Jones and Blackett have started this season well.

I don't think we will really see the ability of Mata until, collectively as a team, we get over this slump we've been in for a year now - when we turn the corner (hopefully quicker than Houllier) we'll start to see the best of Mata as he links up with Rooney, Di Maria etc....

 

[HabeasC]

He needs players to make runs and he needs the ball a lot earlier. At the minute, he is getting the ball with no one ahead of him and surrounded by opposition players, as he is being passed the ball after it has touched every defensive member of our team.

 

[united_99]

He looks more like a support striker than the type of player who can pull strings between the lines. Great in the box, not so great outside it.

I actually think we'd have looked better on Sunday with Mata much closer to Rooney and Kagawa or Januzaj as our attacking midfielder, with RvP on the bench.

Like Müller then?
I would say there are some similarities, but they are not identical. And ofc he is not a playmaker like Silva, he is probably something between Müller and Silva if it makes sense.

 

[Pexbo]

He looks more like a support striker than the type of player who can pull strings between the lines. Great in the box, not so great outside it.

I actually think we'd have looked better on Sunday with Mata much closer to Rooney and Kagawa or Januzaj as our attacking midfielder, with RvP on the bench.

He'd have looked much better if he had Wingbacks providing more threat wide so Sunderland were stretched and he could drift outside the area looking to make some angles.

As it was, they sat comfortably in shape with the wing backs holding the line and the centre mids cutting the space in front of the centrebacks. Now the old joke is "getting to the byline" and it's all well and good taking the piss out of that phrase if your only plan is to whack a cross in every time you "get to the byline" but it doesn't matter what formation you play, you need players who can attack wide areas and force the opposition defensive line back into their own area which means not only space around their area but also pockets of space in the area. It's a tactic Barcelona used to use to great effect, they'd have someone attack wide, a midfielder would come and collect and shift it back centrally or to the other wing until they were stretched and an angle or opening was forged.

When your fullbacks can't beat a man and create space beyond the 18 yard line in wide areas, you're screwed for space, the ball just gets shifted to across to nowhere and the opposition push out and push you back.

The hope is that having someone like Di Maria attacking from anywhere will force the opposition deeper and we can exploit the space created by that.

 

[legball]

The problem is that we never needed him in the first place, Mata is best behind a single striker. We have one genuine striker [RVP], and another [Rooney] who likes to drop deep, thereby congesting the area where the #10 should be doing his thing. Secondly, he needs a defensively sound midfield behind him, who will constantly feed him the ball which will allow him concentrate on the final third, that's where he's at his best. At United, he doesn't have this, meaning, he has to drop deeper and deeper to get the ball and by doing this his influence in the final third is diminished because he's not particularly fast. He also needs runners and if we have those, he'll pick them out with ease, but we are slow and have zero off the ball running/movement. Mata is and was never a player to force a game or carry a team, but when there are certain things in place as i mentioned, he's a joy to watch. So, we'll have to make a BIG decision about him, either sell or drop Wayne Rooney because RVP is quite comfortably a better striker and player all together.

 

[bosnian_red]

He needs players to make runs and he needs the ball a lot earlier. At the minute, he is getting the ball with no one ahead of him and surrounded by opposition players, as he is being passed the ball after it has touched every defensive member of our team.

Yep. Needs players like januzaj and di Maria on the wings to stretch teams and give him space, rather then everyone crowd him out. Wouldn't be surprised is suddenly our front players all took their game to another level with di Maria here. Just hope we use Januzaj on the other wing.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The problem is that we never needed him in the first place, Mata is best behind a single striker. We have one genuine striker [RVP], and another [Rooney] who likes to drop deep, thereby congesting the area where the #10 should be doing his thing. Secondly, he needs a defensively sound midfield behind him, who will constantly feed him the ball which will allow him concentrate on the final third, that's where he's at his best. At United, he doesn't have this, meaning, he has to drop deeper and deeper to get the ball and by doing this his influence in the final third is diminished because he's not particularly fast. He also needs runners and if we have those, he'll pick them out with ease, but we are slow and have zero off the ball running/movement. Mata is and was never a player to force a game or carry a team, but when there are certain things in place as i mentioned, he's a joy to watch. So, we'll have to make a BIG decision about him, either sell or drop Wayne Rooney because RVP is quite comfortably a better striker and player all together.

Hasn't looked it for at least 12 months, probably longer. Without doubt the least effective of the three of them against Sunderland.

 

[legball]

Hasn't looked it for at least 12 months, probably longer. Without doubt the least effective of the three of them against Sunderland.

By his standards was poor last season but somehow managed to outscore Rooney [if am not mistaken] who we're told had an excellent season, was relatvely good in the WC where Rooney was poor as usual, in terms of technique and general play, RVP is quite comfortably better than Rooney.

 

[Lennon7]

Talks of Mata being dropped to accommodate Di Maria. This can't happen... he's one of our best players and is a great presence on the pitch.

 

[bosnian_red]

By his standards was poor last season but somehow managed to outscore Rooney [if am not mistaken] who we're told had an excellent season, was relatvely good in the WC where Rooney was poor as usual, in terms of technique and general play, RVP is quite comfortably better than Rooney.

You are mistaken, he had less goals.
He's really not better then Rooney any more. Rooney up top will give you a similar amount of goals but these days van Persie hardly gets involved in the game.

 

[MoskvaRed]

By his standards was poor last season but somehow managed to outscore Rooney [if am not mistaken] who we're told had an excellent season, was relatvely good in the WC where Rooney was poor as usual, in terms of technique and general play, RVP is quite comfortably better than Rooney.

I thought RVP was largely anonymous in the latter stages of the WC, despite having probably the tournament's best player on his flank. Rooney didn't set on the world on fire either but came up with a nice assist against Italy and scored against Uruguay. I think the uncomfortable truth is that both may have seen their best days and that, before too long, the club will have to splash out again. Hopefully before then we will get one or two more productive seasons from them as we aim to reconsolidate in the top 4.

 

[legball]

You are mistaken, he had less goals.
He's really not better then Rooney any more. Rooney up top will give you a similar amount of goals but these days van Persie hardly gets involved in the game.

Rooney gets involved but it's sometimes to the detriment of the team, his poor touch doesn't help too. RVP is better for me.

 

[acnumber9]

Hasn't looked it for at least 12 months, probably longer. Without doubt the least effective of the three of them against Sunderland.

He really wasn't though. Van Persie at least dropped deep and got himself involved for the goal. Drove at their defence and could've got himself a penalty. Rooney did nothing. Both weren't good enough mind you. One's only coming back into the team though.

 

[Kaos]

He needs a solid sitting midfield behind him. We have someone like Vidal or even De Jong giving him that protection, he'll be lethal IMO.

 

[noodlehair]

I get people want Mata/Rooney etc to do more, the former could do more to raise the tempo and the latter needs to get his touch/reaction speed up but both are limited by what's around them. Unless you want Mata to pick the ball up and run past people (which isn't his game) then I'm not sure how much he can do. It's like we could have Scholes back and he could keep playing great balls to Valencia/Young etc in good areas but if they either don't get a cross in or stop and turn back inside then what else could he really do? He can't force players to make runs or to try to link up or be positive when they get the ball.

I personally defend Mata because I'm confident that with players who make runs and look to link up and move forward that he would look much better. I think a top player player who isn't a dribbler or a power house would struggle to shine in our attack and even they would be limited to indiivudal bursts of brilliance.

Where as with the other players they're the one's not doing their job for individual reasons. Young/Valencia see the ball more than anyone and pass the buck more than anyone other than Clev maybe. Fletcher just can't seem to deal with the pace of games. Between the 4 of them they're not doing their jobs properly and the blame for that is much more with them than the other players around them.

Rooney/Mata/RVP have limitations being shown up by the poorness of the other players around them but I think they could all play better if the other players around them even if they weren't off the right quality were making runs and showing the right desire.

The issue for me is I see Rooney and Mata actively shirking the responsibility of making something happen. Rooney just wants to get the ball out wide rather than drive towards goal and Mata's first intention is always to go backwards and get rid.

So there's no movement ahead of him? There's not going to be when 90% of the time his first touch is to deliberately turn away from goal or into a safe area...so by the time he gets round to looking for a forward pass (if he even does, which by the way he was guilty of not even doing numerous times yesterday) there isn't going to be one.

Even so, he could try committing a player for a give and go, running towards the box and trying to play off one of the strikers. He only did either of these things once from memory, in an entire 90 minutes of football, and even then he only went for the give and go because Welbeck's layoff forced him to, and it ended with him lying uselessly on the floor.

He's a £42m player and the most technically gifted player in the team. He's not there to pansy around waiting until other people start playing well so he can turn up and share in the glory. Again its a self defeating argument. If he's completely reliant on other players and the system doing most of his job for him, then we shouldn't have been paying £42m for him in the first place.

£42m should be buying you some solid foundations to build on, not a piece of fancy decorative wallpaper.

 

[shabadu84]

Since he's arrived, Mata has not lit the world on fire but he's been comfortably better than Rooney or RVP. He hasn't reached their heights as a match-winner, no, but imo he also hasn't reached their depths and been a complete passenger like RVP or lead-footed lump like Rooney.

All 3 could and should be playing better. IMO, that will come soon enough, once they are all match fit and used to their respective roles in this system. The de-Moyes-ification is still in process.

 

[OneUnited24]

Since he's arrived, Mata has not lit the world on fire but he's been comfortably better than Rooney or RVP. He hasn't reached their heights as a match-winner, no, but imo he also hasn't reached their depths and been a complete passenger like RVP or lead-footed lump like Rooney.

All 3 could and should be playing better. IMO, that will come soon enough, once they are all match fit and used to their respective roles in this system. The de-Moyes-ification is still in process.

Thing is, i wonder if we are far too congested in the middle with those three. RvP mentioned it last season and i wonder if that will always be a problem. Similar players making similar runs. If Mata was played a little further back it might work wonders

 

[Amar__]

I like how Rooney fans are turning this into "Mata was equally bad as Rooney" even though Rooney was crap in both games, and not just that, but he messed up everything pretty much every time he touched the ball looking like championship player in the procces.
Mata was easily our best attacking player against Sunderland(Rooney was nothing better than the likes of Valencia, Fletcher), so even comparing these two is just showing how unfair some people are on Mata. Against Swansea both were wank tbf, but at least Mata didn't have problems like controling the ball and passing it to teammate who is standing 5 feets next to him. But it's always nice to see how Rooney's fans are blaming everyone except him, last year it was RvP, and this season it could be Mata.
Now, I am not saying he was out of this world since he came here(at least he was easily one of the best performers in the team, that wasn't hard though), but when Rooney scores 7 in 8 games that's usually described as him being back to his best.

 

[united_99]

Thing is, i wonder if we are far too congested in the middle with those three. RvP mentioned it last season and i wonder if that will always be a problem. Similar players making similar runs. If Mata was played a little further back it might work wonders

Mata didn't even play in the game after which RvP made that statement. But yes, they all have to interchange more like Ronaldo/Rooney/Tevez did. If Di Maria can play a bit of that Ronaldo role it will be a huge help.

 

[Nighteyes]

I like how Rooney fans are turning this into "Mata was equally bad as Rooney" even though Rooney was crap in both games, and not just that, but he messed up everything pretty much every time he touched the ball looking like championship player in the procces.
Mata was easily our best attacking player against Sunderland(Rooney was nothing better than the likes of Valencia, Fletcher), so even comparing these two is just showing how unfair some people are on Mata. Against Swansea both were wank tbf, but at least Mata didn't have problems like controling the ball and passing it to teammate who is standing 5 feets next to him. But it's always nice to see how Rooney's fans are blaming everyone except him, last year it was RvP, and this season it could be Mata.
Now, I am not saying he was out of this world since he came here(at least he was easily one of the best performers in the team, that wasn't hard though), but when Rooney scores 7 in 8 games that's usually described as him being back to his best.

What a shite post.

 

[OneUnited24]

Mata didn't even play in the game after which RvP made that statement. But yes, they all have to interchange more like Ronaldo/Rooney/Tevez did. If Di Maria can play a bit of that Ronaldo role it will be a huge help.

Well at the time we had Kagawa playing which i guess is similar to Mata. Ronaldo/Tevez/Rooney were all different types of players though