Jose's pop at Pep

Green_Red said:
We're 5 games in and the best team theyve played is us and its not like they ran riot against us. Beating Swansea (whose manager is on the ropes), West Ham (whose manager is on the ropes), Stoke (whose manager is on the ropes) and Bournemouth is hardly a sign theyre going to dominate every team they play. Lets see how well they are going after theyve played some teams in the top half of the table.
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Our points this season vs equivalent fixtures last season

Sunderland H 3/3
Stoke A 3/0
West Ham H 3/0
Man Utd A 3/1
Bournemouth H 3/3
Swansea A 3/1

We are 10 points ahead of those accrued in the same fixtures last season.
It's not to our problem that some of those Managers are under pressure, (arguably Mourinho came close to joining that group), as you can only beat the team put before you. Sometimes you'll get strugglers sometimes teams on a winning streak.
All part of the game.
 
Lentwood said:
Right, so I am not really sure what you are arguing here. I am saying that based on our individuals/squad and our 'team' we probably finished in the right position last year. My argument is that City had a better squad and team and were in a false position. Hence my point that Jose has a lot more work to do than Pep
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That's the point i am arguing. You can't just decide who has to work more because where they finished last season and we did finish on same points. False position or whatever is bs. We were on false position too because we should have been in top 4 then.

There are other factors of course. But eventually, where you end up on the table at the end of season will count. We didn't give much of excuses for previous managers not to finish where we should. It will be the same with both pep and jose.
 
:nervous: Umm.. Peps got quite the challenge too
 
Jed I. Knight said:
It's a poor dig, if it indeed was one aimed at Guardiola. We finished on the same amount of points as them last season, and Mourinho has been given a carte blanche in the transfer market. So I'd say they were more or less starting from the same place.
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I don't really agree......I think City had a superstar in every position for the past couple of seasons but just didn't have the right manager who could make it all click. When you compare what we had last season to them...Daley Blind as a central defender as opposed to the endless center backs they had like Otamendi/Mangala/Kompany when not injured etc.......in central mid we played a tumescent overweight Rooney and Carrick...They had Yaya and Fernandinho.....Up front we had a rookie in Martial while they had Aguerro....On the wings they had Silva and Sterling and we had Lingard and Mata.....They horribly underachieved last season because Pelligrini was miles out of his depth despite being a decent coach for a team outside the top 6......How we got level on points with them despite our second worst season in premier league history shows how badly Pellegrini was out of his depth.....Guardiola has come in and given all those stars a winning mentality again while being able to address the problems areas in the team with real quality....I don't think his rebuild was as severe as what Jose had to face with so much mediocrity in the team he inherited such as Fellaini/Darmian/Schweini/Rooney/Lingard/Blind as a central defender/Rojo/Mata as a winger etc
 
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Champagne Football said:
I don't really agree......I think City had a superstar in every position for the past couple of seasons but just didn't have the right manager who could make it all click. When you compare what we had last season to them...Daley Blind as a central midfielder as opposed to the endless center backs they had like Otamendi/Mangala/Kompany when not injured etc.......in central mid we played a tumescent overweight Rooney and Carrick...They had Yaya and Fernandinho.....Up front we had a rookie in Martial while they had Aguerro....On the wings they had Silva and Sterling and we had Lingard and Mata.....They horribly underachieved last season because Pelligrini was miles out of his depth despite being a decent coach for a team outside the top 6......How we got level on points with them despite our second worst season in premier league history shows how badly Pellegrini was out of his depth.....Guardiola has come in and given all those stars a winning mentality again while being able to address the problems areas in the team with real quality....I don't think his rebuild was as severe as what Jose had to face with so much mediocrity in the team he inherited such as Fellaini/Darmian/Schweini/Rooney/Lingard/Blind as a central defender/Rojo/Mata as a winger etc
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Agreed, to an extent, I think Jose has the much harder job too but that doesn't make his easy either.

They've a better squad on paper - but their formation wasn't helping, their play was almost as ponderous as ours, Silva was massively underperforming, they had some ageing stars to get rid of and their defence was (and still is) creaky. Didn't think he'd have it easy and so far it seems he's done well and got them playing fast attractive and effective football, credit where it's due. Not seen that much of his signings yet though.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Our points this season vs equivalent fixtures last season

Sunderland H 3/3
Stoke A 3/0
West Ham H 3/0
Man Utd A 3/1
Bournemouth H 3/3
Swansea A 3/1

We are 10 points ahead of those accrued in the same fixtures last season.
It's not to our problem that some of those Managers are under pressure, (arguably Mourinho came close to joining that group), as you can only beat the team put before you. Sometimes you'll get strugglers sometimes teams on a winning streak.
All part of the game.
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No its not your problem theyre under pressure. But beating 3 out of the bottom 5 teams in the league doesnt make you title contenders no matter what the pundits on tv say. When City have played Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham then lets see where they are and how much of a messiah Pep is then. Ffs, if you cant beat teams with less than 3 points in 5 games youre in trouble. Not a true reflection of form beating a team with 1 point is it?

And the fact those teams (stoke and west ham) are struggling this season is an important difference between how they were doing last season. West Ham were 2nd this time last year if I remember correctly?
 
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Parry Gallister said:
Agreed, to an extent, I think Jose has the much harder job too but that doesn't make his easy either.

They've a better squad on paper - but their formation wasn't helping, their play was almost as ponderous as ours, Silva was massively underperforming, they had some ageing stars to get rid of and their defence was (and still is) creaky. Didn't think he'd have it easy and so far it seems he's done well and got them playing fast attractive and effective football, credit where it's due. Not seen that much of his signings yet though.
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Absolutely credit where it's due......Pep has been awesome and the Premier League will finally be feared on the continent again because of his arrival.....I can see City possibly running away with it this year unless Liverpool add consistency to their very admirable form....For sure Utd has a chance also but it appears Pep has found his winning formula earlier than anticipated and that gives him a huge advantage this season over Jose. Pep seems to have answered the question already as to whether his success at Bayern and Barca had more to do with the squad he had as opposed to his managerial brilliance. We might not see the best of Mourinho until next season when the likes of Rooney/Schweini/Darmian will be shown the door with one or two more massive signings in their prime coming in to replace them....although I do worry a little about top 4 this season with Spurs and Liverpool so strong but you'd have to think Jose can achieve more points than Chelsea and Arsenal once he settles on his best XI
 
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If he's talking about Pep then I don't think it's an accurate critique in this case. While City have had a less "broken" football system than us, we have bought players to negate that as well as having IMO better solidarity, defence and mentality last season as compared to them.

I mean, would City have started the season as brilliantly had Sterling not been on fire? On the other hand, mourinho has got nothing out of Martial. So, it's not just about how easy the job. It's also what the two managers make of it. Pep, to me, appears to be making it look easy more than anything. I can see the argument for city being easier to fix, but it's not an easy job and not vastly different anyhow.
 
Green_Red said:
No its not your problem theyre under pressure. But beating 3 out of the bottom 5 teams in the league doesnt make you title contenders no matter what the pundits on tv say. When City have played Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham then lets see where they are and how much of a messiah Pep is then. Ffs, if you cant beat teams with less than 3 points in 5 games youre in trouble. Not a true reflection of form beating a team with 1 point is it?

And the fact those teams (stoke and west ham) are struggling this season is an important difference between how they were doing last season. West Ham were 2nd this time last year if I remember correctly?
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Wow such stress.
At the start of the season away at Stoke and United were put up by many as games where Pep would struggle while getting to grips with the PL but having won them we get the "aah but" syndrome kicking in.
We've played some good stuff but only in patches and believe me we're nowhere near our peak.
Injuries (Gundogan, Sane, Silva, Kompany and now KDB) and suspensions have meant an over reliance on some players but it's why you have a squad.

Funny how you're putting up those above teams as proving grounds for City. Surely the greatest test would be a trip to Old Trafford with Pep's nemesis Mourinho and the influx of top class summer signings?
Surely you rate yourselves better than those other teams?
Why do you refer to Guardiola as the "Messiah"? Only ever heard that from United fans in spite. Genuinely never heard that fron a Blue.
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Wow such stress.
At the start of the season away at Stoke and United were put up by many as games where Pep would struggle while getting to grips with the PL but having won them we get the "aah but" syndrome kicking in.
We've played some good stuff but only in patches and believe me we're nowhere near our peak.
Injuries (Gundogan, Sane, Silva, Kompany and now KDB) and suspensions have meant an over reliance on some players but it's why you have a squad.

Funny how you're putting up those above teams as proving grounds for City. Surely the greatest test would be a trip to Old Trafford with Pep's nemesis Mourinho and the influx of top class summer signings?
Surely you rate yourselves better than those other teams?
Why do you refer to Guardiola as the "Messiah"? Only ever heard that from United fans in spite. Genuinely never heard that fron a Blue.
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Guardiola hasnt really been tested yet. Swansea put up a good fight last week in the cup. United only played for 1 half and the way we have been we arent much of a test. Personally I dont see City winning the league. And with Stones and Otamendi you have two defenders that will really be tested against good forwards. Kompany isnt the player he was, he reminds me of Rio towards the last year or two. When yous do get tested its going to be something Guatdiola hasnt had to deal with in his career and it could rock yous. I also think yous are playing at your peak tbf.
 
I don't think this really is a dig at pep to be honest. I don't even really buy that they hate each other. Yeah they're big rivals but football is a game, I think the only manager Mourinho really hates is Wenger for whatever reason.
 
Green_Red said:
No its not your problem theyre under pressure. But beating 3 out of the bottom 5 teams in the league doesnt make you title contenders no matter what the pundits on tv say. When City have played Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham then lets see where they are and how much of a messiah Pep is then. Ffs, if you cant beat teams with less than 3 points in 5 games youre in trouble. Not a true reflection of form beating a team with 1 point is it?

And the fact those teams (stoke and west ham) are struggling this season is an important difference between how they were doing last season. West Ham were 2nd this time last year if I remember correctly?
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I agree that we haven't had the most testing of starts in terms of opponents faced and there will of course be bigger challenges ahead. However, it's been proven in the past that this league can be won without having a good record against close rivals in the table and I'll give you 2 examples - in the interests of impartiality one is United and one is City:

United 2008-2009 - You won the league with 90 points. Your record against the bottom 12 teams was an incredible W23 D1 L0 and 70 points accrued. Astonishingly the drawn game was the first game of the season against Newcastle at Old Trafford and after that you didn't drop a single point against the bottom 12 teams. On the flip side, your record in the top 4 mini league that season was worse than the other 3 clubs but it didn't stop you winning the league.

City 2013-2014 - We won the league with 86 points yet our record against the 2 teams directly below us - Liverpool and Chelsea - was atrocious with both teams doing the double over us. *Edit - no they didn't. We beat Liverpool at home - not like me to get a stat like that wrong lol but it was still 9 points dropped in the 4 games against those 2 teams.
 
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Isn't his comments aimed at the press for the criticism against him and the team?
 
M18CTID said:
I agree that we haven't had the most testing of starts in terms of opponents faced and there will of course be bigger challenges ahead. However, it's been proven in the past that this league can be won without having a good record against close rivals in the table and I'll give you 2 examples - in the interests of impartiality one is United and one is City:

United 2008-2009 - You won the league with 90 points. Your record against the bottom 12 teams was an incredible W23 D1 L0 and 70 points accrued. Astonishingly the drawn game was the first game of the season against Newcastle at Old Trafford and after that you didn't drop a single point against the bottom 12 teams. On the flip side, your record in the top 4 mini league that season was worse than the other 3 clubs but it didn't stop you winning the league.

City 2013-2014 - We won the league with 86 points yet our record against the 2 teams directly below us - Liverpool and Chelsea - was atrocious with both teams doing the double over us. *Edit - no they didn't. We beat Liverpool at home - not like me to get a stat like that wrong lol but it was still 9 points dropped in the 4 games against those 2 teams.
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Chelsea had the worst top 4 record in 2008/09, 1 point worse than us.
But that season was an exception as Benitez is the master of draws who at many times couldn't buy a win.
Normally PL history shows that in order to win the PL you at least need a decent record in the top 4 league and if you lose twice to your closest rival / 2nd placed team, you'll lose the league, too.
 
united_99 said:
Chelsea had the worst top 4 record in 2008/09, 1 point worse than us.
But that season was an exception as Benitez is the master of draws who at many times couldn't buy a win.
Normally PL history shows that in order to win the PL you at least need a decent record in the top 4 league and if you lose twice to your closest rival / 2nd placed team, you'll lose the league, too.
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Yes, you're correct - damn, 2 stats wrong in one post is almost unheard of for me ;) And Benitez's Liverpool did indeed draw a lot of games that season (I think they only lost 2) yet did the double over United and still lost the league to you.

Anyway, the point I was making is that while it's not a common occurrence for a team to win the title despite having a poor record against their closest challengers, it's not impossible.
 
Jose couldn't give a crap about the comparisons to Pep and I believe Pep cant be arsed with it either.

Whatever way you look at it both have extremely strong arguments to claim they are the best coaches in the world at the moment. Neither by the way are anywhere near the level of SAF. Whilst were at it why dont we mention Klopp and his work at Dortmund, one of the most sensational pieces of management we have ever seen, Dortmund were no where near Bayern and for a couple of years took them all the way and beat them.

Pep is a wonderful tactician with a steely resolve and ideas about the game that are new and quite unique HOWEVER, I would argue that his teams are regimented and somewhat stale and boring. City are playing blinders, beating teams convincingly but its all a bit boring, its a bit clinical and whilst the fans of City must be creaming themselves, that is not how you get fans nor enhance yourself to a wider football public. In this point in time Pep is far far bigger than City, hence he gets the plaudits whilst the name of City is simply his vehicle.

Jose IS NOT bigger than United, he has been brought into an already humongous institution and has two out of the previous managers as similarly revered managers as him in SAF (way more) and LVG (Arguable). Our squad is full of players with the eye for the dramatic, Rashford, Martial, Ibra, Rooney, Pogba, glimpses of Herrera, Mata and Bailly showing dramatic moments over continuous grind that the Pep machine seems to be.

By getting Jose we basically got blockbuster/hollywood style appointment and the same players followed and will come further, they key to Jose's teams is having this dramatic eye for games, the Pogba flicks, the Ibra rockets the entertainment. Jose will become the biggest manager in the world as he blossoms into the United hotseat and raises his level. Pep is working to bring City up to his level, the question is, ultimately what level is higher? Peps best, or Uniteds best?

The battle is United vs Pep, not United vs City as there never was, there never will be any contest in that regard.

Jose will get it right, and when he does it will be glorious.

This season Pep wins the league, next season will be entirely different and I am seriously going to enjoy the ride.
 
M18CTID said:
Yes, you're correct - damn, 2 stats wrong in one post is almost unheard of for me ;) And Benitez's Liverpool did indeed draw a lot of games that season (I think they only lost 2) yet did the double over United and still lost the league to you.

Anyway, the point I was making is that while it's not a common occurrence for a team to win the title despite having a poor record against their closest challengers, it's not impossible.
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Yeah, you can thankfully only laugh at Benitez. His record against Fergie prior to 2008/09 was atrocious: Played 8, drawn 1, lost 7. FACT!
Even when we were a bit crap between 2004 and 2006 we ended up beating them.
Then finally he manages to not only beat Fergie, but actually does the double and still ends up losing the league to him. Ouch!
 
Ishdalar said:
"Remember that time I chose the job at Real with Ronaldo, Benzema, Pepe, Ramos, Casillas, Xabi Alonso, Ozil...? that was quite a challenge"
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It was a challenge because he was facing another team with a clearly superior coach. Which is also why this job now is a bigger challenge.

For Pep, there's no such challenge. He's always at the team with the best coach, the coward.
 
Cristiano Lell said:
It was a challenge because he was facing another team with a clearly superior coach. Which is also why this job now is a bigger challenge.

For Pep, there's no such challenge. He's always at the team with the best coach, the coward.
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:lol::lol:
It's difficult for that to be different. What can he do?
 
FCBarca said:
:D

No one has spent more as a coach than Mou either
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Pep didn't have to spend much as he already had Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, Puyol, Valdes at Barca and whole Bayern team who were Champions league winners and almost complete squad as it can get.

Despite that he spent a lot and was in top 5 IIRC.
 
Green_Red said:
Guardiola hasnt really been tested yet. Swansea put up a good fight last week in the cup. United only played for 1 half and the way we have been we arent much of a test. Personally I dont see City winning the league. And with Stones and Otamendi you have two defenders that will really be tested against good forwards. Kompany isnt theo player he was, he reminds me of Rio towards the last year or two. When yous do get tested its going to be something Guatdiola hasnt had to deal with in his career and it could rock yous. I also think yous are playing at your peak tbf.
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Agree that CB looks a weakness for us right now as we are short of cover. Pep often gets around these problems with switches of tactics/personnel. He values versatility as much as individual brilliance when squad building.
The likes if Kolarov/F'dinho and Fernando have helped tighten things up when called upon.
Sadly Kompany does look shot. Great pity as too young to be written off.
Nobody in Academy ready to be promoted and looks like Denayer short of required srandard so will need to dip into market for maybe one of Bonucci , Laporte or Kimmich but they would be a very tough and expensive signing.
This myth about Pep never being tested is just risible. You can do nothing more than beat what's put in front of you and he's mostly done that.
He's dealt with Real mostly, BVB always in the League and Ferguson led United twice in CL and early signs are that he will likely win PL thus season. If you disagree why not back your opinion and lay City on Betfair?
Plenty of hipsters and mugs ready to take you on there.
 
Parry Gallister said:
Agreed, to an extent, I think Jose has the much harder job too but that doesn't make his easy either.

They've a better squad on paper - but their formation wasn't helping, their play was almost as ponderous as ours, Silva was massively underperforming, they had some ageing stars to get rid of and their defence was (and still is) creaky. Didn't think he'd have it easy and so far it seems he's done well and got them playing fast attractive and effective football, credit where it's due. Not seen that much of his signings yet though.
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I don't see that Jose has the harder job, in the short term at least. Jose is expected to make top 4, challenge for the league (to a point) and improve on last year. Considering we won the FA Cup last year, he may fall short.

On the other hand, Pep is expected to win the league and challenge for the Champions League. If we accept those as his targets, he has the tougher job.

Sickens me to say it, but we're a good 18/24 months behind City right now.
 
Attila said:
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Thank you for posting that.

How anyone could conclude that it's about Guardiola - I really don't understand. (And if that specific sentence had not been highlighted at the end of the article - almost certainly
by the editor, not by the author - no one probably wood.)
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Agree that CB looks a weakness for us right now as we are short of cover. Pep often gets around these problems with switches of tactics/personnel. He values versatility as much as individual brilliance when squad building.
The likes if Kolarov/F'dinho and Fernando have helped tighten things up when called upon.
Sadly Kompany does look shot. Great pity as too young to be written off.
Nobody in Academy ready to be promoted and looks like Denayer short of required srandard so will need to dip into market for maybe one of Bonucci , Laporte or Kimmich but they would be a very tough and expensive signing.
This myth about Pep never being tested is just risible. You can do nothing more than beat what's put in front of you and he's mostly done that.
He's dealt with Real mostly, BVB always in the League and Ferguson led United twice in CL and early signs are that he will likely win PL thus season. If you disagree why not back your opinion and lay City on Betfair?
Plenty of hipsters and mugs ready to take you on there.
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No idea how betfair works. But I would take that bet. What are the odds for City to win the league?
 
They said it was 8/13 last night.
Those odds are ridiculous with only 6 games played.
 
Fans really love rivalries I guess, they'll see what they'll want to see as soon as someone says something slightly vague.
 
lonelyred said:
Thank you for posting that.

How anyone could conclude that it's about Guardiola - I really don't understand. (And if that specific sentence had not been highlighted at the end of the article - almost certainly
by the editor, not by the author - no one probably wood.)
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It's because it fits into the narrative of some people on here that Guardiola always profits from other managers work (Barca, Rijkaard - Bayern, van Gaal - City Pellegrini) and doesn't actually accomplish anything himself but makes teams play boring possession football and fall over at every touch. They would love nothing more than Mou blowing into the same horn.
 
Green_Red said:
No idea how betfair works. But I would take that bet. What are the odds for City to win the league?
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They're currently trading at 1.71 so you're offering to pay 0.71 in the £ to punters who want to back City. There's a small commission to pay to Betfair if you win.
You don't have to nominate who does win the PL to win the wager just be correct in your opinion that City won't.
 
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