Jose's pop at Pep

Ishdalar said:
"Remember that time I chose the job at Real with Ronaldo, Benzema, Pepe, Ramos, Casillas, Xabi Alonso, Ozil...? that was quite a challenge"
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He was up against one of the greatest club sides ever though, that Barcelona team was incredible.
 
Raoul said:
Or the time I won the Champions League with Benny McCarthy at striker....
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Then Ranieri would be a god right now, don't know why United, Chelsea, City, Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Juve, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, England or Italy weren't crazy to get him this summer

When it comes to "challenge" it depends on how you look at it, as a famous manager signing for Newcastle on relegation and staying in the championship is a hell of a challenge, getting the job from Bayern after they won everything was quite a challenge, basically if you don't even win the UCL people can say you're a failure

So, excuse me if I don't consider taking the reins of the most expensive squad ever with Cristiano Ronaldo as one of the greatest challenges ever, Real is always a challenging job, Mou's personality just took a hard job (as everyone at Real) and turned it into epic poetry, sorry but I won't buy his version
 
Lentwood said:
The City job isn't as easy as some have made out - however it should be noted that Pellegrini seemed to actually hold them back quite significantly at times and it wasn't necessarily that they had a bad squad or team. This is a view that many City fans would back up

The team they had last year should EASILY have been top 2 whereas you couldn't really argue that Utd finished any lower/higher than the calibre of the playing squad deserved
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lol what?
 
Wonder if it was a kind of revenge swipe after Pep's post-Bournemouth comments?


"Bournemouth are the best side we have faced this season," Guardiola told BBC Radio Five Live. The coach then went on to say that other clubs have 'just used the long ball' against City this term, despite Kevin De Bruyne scoring City's first goal against United from a long-ball routine.
 
Ishdalar said:
Then Ranieri would be a god right now, don't know why United, Chelsea, City, Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Juve, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, England or Italy weren't crazy to get him this summer

When it comes to "challenge" it depends on how you look at it, as a famous manager signing for Newcastle on relegation and staying in the championship is a hell of a challenge, getting the job from Bayern after they won everything was quite a challenge, basically if you don't even win the UCL people can say you're a failure

So, excuse me if I don't consider taking the reins of the most expensive squad ever with Cristiano Ronaldo as one of the greatest challenges ever, Real is always a challenging job, Mou's personality just took a hard job (as everyone at Real) and turned it into epic poetry, sorry but I won't buy his version
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Well he would be if not for a career of prior flops. Had he won the CL with a side like Cagliari early on in his career then your comparison may have a bit of merit.
 
Reddevilboy said:
Yet that was the last time they won the league.
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Real and Florentino were all about la decima, everything was a "failure" if it didn't bring the 10th UCL home, that's why Ancelotti, who did a worse job than Mou and "fed" on his legacy will be loved more than Mourinho in the future.
 
Ishdalar said:
Pellegrini finished 4 points behind Barcelona, it's not like he took Real Madrid from a 3 year title drought, with 2 of their stars leaving and having finished 18 points behind their rivals last season and made them win everything. Know who did that? Guardiola



In 3 seasons he won 1 Cup and 1 league, Barcelona won 2 leagues and a cup. Your definition of "winning" seems biased

Nevermind that season when he came, lost the league and lost in SF against Barcelona who later won the CL, Mou won the cup so maybe by your definition it was a win for Mourinho
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Your argument was that Jose has an easy job,not that Pep did/didn't.

You are going off tangent because you know you really have no point to add here.
 
Raoul said:
Well he would be if not for a career of prior flops. Had he won the CL with a side like Cagliari early on in his career then your comparison may have a bit of merit.
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Ranieri was just unlucky, he set the foundation for Valencia's brighter era, with 2 league titles, a UEFA and two UCL finals. Then he did the same with Chelsea.

I just think (and this is just my personal opinion, not defending this as an absolute truth) that luck played a great part in Mou and Pep's legacy. Mou won the UCL with Porto in a year where the European giants were awful, he got lucky against Deportivo when the ref sent off their best defender for patting Deco (his friend) and got lucky again with Inter in semis against Barcelona. If Madrid, Bayern, Barcelona, Juve... weren't this big today, Emery could've achieved something similar with Sevilla
Pep got lucky against Chelsea with Iniesta's goal and the ref screwing them. In football, I refuse to base my arguments just in silverware, Di Matteo managed to win the UCL with Chelsea, that doesn't make him a better manager than Mou who failed to achieve it multiple times
 
Ishdalar said:
"Remember that time I chose the job at Real with Ronaldo, Benzema, Pepe, Ramos, Casillas, Xabi Alonso, Ozil...? that was quite a challenge"
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You forgot Florentino, Raúl, Marca, As and their various agendas and what their history of manager turnover tells you about how easy a job it is.
 
K2K said:
Your argument was that Jose has an easy job,not that Pep did/didn't.

You are going off tangent because you know you really have no point to add here.
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No, I didn't say that, you're saying that for me, but maybe I went overboard with my sarcasm. Any top club job is always hard, I just don't get how coaching Real with that squad was such an epic challenge. Madrid is always the hardest job in football, but from the quote in this post I get the idea that Mourinho is selling us his task at Madrid as something bigger than it was.

In hindsight and with a biased opinion yeah, Pep had it easy, but Pep took Barcelona in a crisis (3 years without titles, Ronaldinho and Deco out, 18 points behind Madrid, just lost 4-1 against them, the board facing an uprising to throw them out) and won everything. We can agree that the Bayern job was easy, but after they had a perfect season (destroying Barcelona in the way) there was no way you could come out of that job without people saying "you took the best club in the world and failed to win x" so it was a challenge in its own way
 
Gentleman Jim said:
Wonder if it was a kind of revenge swipe after Pep's post-Bournemouth comments?


"Bournemouth are the best side we have faced this season," Guardiola told BBC Radio Five Live. The coach then went on to say that other clubs have 'just used the long ball' against City this term, despite Kevin De Bruyne scoring City's first goal against United from a long-ball routine.
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This
 
Ishdalar said:
In hindsight and with a biased opinion yeah, Pep had it easy, but Pep took Barcelona in a crisis (3 years without titles, Ronaldinho and Deco out, 18 points behind Madrid, just lost 4-1 against them, the board facing an uprising to throw them out) and won everything. We can agree that the Bayern job was easy, but after they had a perfect season (destroying Barcelona in the way) there was no way you could come out of that job without people saying "you took the best club in the world and failed to win x" so it was a challenge in its own way
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Yeah, and everything at Real was just honky dory. They hadn't won the cup and the league in 2 years, they were getting knocked out of the CL in group stages and couldn't pass the first knockouts in the CL.

Aside from that, he faced Barcelona (probably one of the greatest sides in football ever) with a Messi in his peak (the greatest footballer, no doubt about that) and one of the best midfielders in Xavi and Iniesta all entering their peak years.

Not an easy job at all, and the fact that he managed to fix all three - he won them the cup, he got them past the CL's group stages, and regularly gave them semi-finals and he won them the league that hasn't been won since him even though the current Barca side is much weaker than the one before that (Let's be real, even with Suarez-Messi-Neymar, this Barca side is far from what Barca used to be under Pep when they were killing teams left and right.
 
Ishdalar said:
No, I didn't say that, you're saying that for me, but maybe I went overboard with my irony. Any top club job is always hard, I just don't get how coaching Real with that squad was such an epic challenge. Madrid is always the hardest job in football, but from the quote in this post I get the idea that Mourinho is selling us his task at Madrid as something bigger than it was.

In hindsight and with a biased opinion yeah, Pep had it easy, but Pep took Barcelona in a crisis (3 years without titles, Ronaldinho and Deco out, 18 points behind Madrid, just lost 4-1 against them, the board facing an uprising to throw them out) and won everything. We can agree that the Bayern job was easy, but after they had a perfect season (destroying Barcelona in the way) there was no way you could come out of that job without people saying "you took the best club in the world and failed to win x" so it was a challenge in its own way
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I'm not even remotely fussed about this manager record comparison stuff, but it's obvious that those challenges you point out that Guardiola faced, he faced them with nothing to lose. It was an opportunity. Mourinho has had something to lose reputation-wise for over a decade, yet he does indeed seek and take on new challenges.

In any case, Guardiola has nothing to do with this. You say it yourself: Madrid is the hardest job in football, but then say it wasn't exactly a challenge. You can't complain if people react to you dissing the manager.
 
Ishdalar said:
Real and Florentino were all about la decima, everything was a "failure" if it didn't bring the 10th UCL home, that's why Ancelotti, who did a worse job than Mou and "fed" on his legacy will be loved more than Mourinho in the future.
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Yes I am aware of that but you never take into account of the fact that Real underachieved in the Champions League for many seasons prior to his arrival.

Since Real Madrid won the Champions League in 2001, here's their record:
2002-2003: Semi-finals (Del Bosque)
2003-2004: Quarter-finals (Queiroz)
2004-2005: Round of 16 (Camacho)
2005-2006: Round of 16 (Luxemburgo/Ramon Lopez)
2006-2007: Round of 16 (Capello)
2007-2008: Round of 16 (Schuster)
2008-2009: Round of 16 (Schuster)
2009-2010: Round of 16 (Pellegrini)
2010-2011: Semi-finals (Mourinho)
2011-2012: Semi-finals (Mourinho)
2012-2013: Semi-finals (Mourinho)

They have been knocked out in the round of 16 for 6 consecutive years and after Mourinho came in, they made it to the semi-finals on 3 consecutive seasons. I'd even dare say that this gave them the self-belief and mental strength to win La Decima with Ancelotti as Ancelotti took over the spine of Mourinho's team and I always hold this belief that it takes a team many near-misses to finally win the Champions League. Dortmund, Atletico Madrid and even City will get there one day.

You also seem to conveniently left out the fact that Pep failed to win the Champions League with Bayern too.

IMO, I think that Mourinho is one of Real's most successful managers as he made them competitive again in Europe and toppled one of the greatest Barca team.
 
antohan said:
You forgot Florentino, Raúl, Marca, As and their various agendas and what their history of manager turnover tells you about how easy a job it is.
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That comes with the job, doesn't matter if you're Mourinho, Zidane, Schuster or Lopez Caro.

I just don't get why it was such a challenge with Mourinho just because Barcelona were good (and got lucky) the year before. Madrid were already strong and kinda close to Barcelona, with their resources if you do a good job is just a question of time until you match any team in the world

But then again, I'm kinda special, when someone is named after the feat of "defeating the best team ever" I'm reluctant to aknowledge that, at best you defeated a different version of what once was the best team ever, but if the squad is not the same then they're not the same team. Bayern went to 3 UCL finals in 4 years, winning a treble and thrashing Barcelona in their way and they don't get the credit Mou gets for dethroning Barcelona with Madrid, that's absurd for me
 
Ishdalar said:
Then Ranieri would be a god right now, don't know why United, Chelsea, City, Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern, Juve, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, England or Italy weren't crazy to get him this summer

When it comes to "challenge" it depends on how you look at it, as a famous manager signing for Newcastle on relegation and staying in the championship is a hell of a challenge, getting the job from Bayern after they won everything was quite a challenge, basically if you don't even win the UCL people can say you're a failure

So, excuse me if I don't consider taking the reins of the most expensive squad ever with Cristiano Ronaldo as one of the greatest challenges ever, Real is always a challenging job, Mou's personality just took a hard job (as everyone at Real) and turned it into epic poetry, sorry but I won't buy his version
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Nah man this isn't the same raneri was a one off Jose with Porto won uefa cups and league titles, not just a flash in the pan as Leicester are so obviously proving to be right now. If he wins the cl with Leicester come back with that argument but right now it's not worth discussing
 
VorZakone said:
Guardiola will have surpassed Saf when he's 70. The guy is only 45 and has won 6 league titles already in Germany/Spain, some cups and 2 CL's.
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Nope. He doesn't want to manage that long. International football and then back to Barca as president (?) seems to be the general opinion on his career goals.
 
Ishdalar said:
"Remember that time I chose the job at Real with Ronaldo, Benzema, Pepe, Ramos, Casillas, Xabi Alonso, Ozil...? that was quite a challenge"
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.... against Messi Iniesta Xavi Busquets and Alves? Likely the best team this generation has seen? Yeah I'd say it's a challenge.
 
cyberman said:
Nope. He doesn't want to manage that long. International football and then back to Barca as president (?) seems to be the general opinion on his career goals.
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3-4 UCL, an 80%+ title win rate, a World Cup and a revolution of football will make him by far the greatest manager in the history of football.

I think there is a good chance that he will do that, even if he doesn't manage in his end sixties. When he is 55 years old or so, he will probably eclipse the achievement of any manager that came before him.
 
Revan said:
3-4 UCL, an 80%+ title win rate, a World Cup and a revolution of football will make him by far the greatest manager in the history of football.

I think there is a good chance that he will do that, even if he doesn't manage in his end sixties. When he is 55 years old or so, he will probably eclipse the achievement of any manager that came before him.
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You're getting ahead of yourself. It's not that easy. He could have won a CL with Bayern and he didn't, I wouldn't be so sure he would win another 2.

Edit: And a World Cup? Yeah, right.
 
Dumat12 said:
You're getting ahead of yourself. It's not that easy. He could have won a CL with Bayern and he didn't, I wouldn't be so sure he would win another 2.

Edit: And a World Cup? Yeah, right.
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I think that he'll win an UCL with City in the next years (likely not on this season though), and then maybe take Spain which has a good collection of players. So yep, I think that there is a good chance that he'll win an another UCL (at least) and a World Cup (this is more difficult). If he wins the title, it would be 7 titles in 8 attempts or 87.5% win rate, which is higher than pretty much any manager ever.
 
Revan said:
I think that he'll win an UCL with City in the next years (likely not on this season though)
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Mate, mate, mate, mate. This isn't FM. Bayern were way better than the current City team, and probably a future City team that he will create (I don't think he is very good at the whole transfer thing) and he didn't win it with them.

What makes you think that he will suddenly win a CL with City?
 
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Dumat12 said:
Mate, mate, mate, mate. This isn't FM. Bayern where way better than the current City team, and probably a future City team that he will create (I don't think he is very good at the whole transfer thing) and he didn't win it with them.

What makes you think that he will suddenly win a CL with City?
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Inter and Porto weren't as good as Chelsea or Madrid, Leicester wasn't as good as the other teams Ranieri managed, etc etc. I think that he is making a very good team at City and will be able to challenge any team in Europe. City were in UCL semi last season, so they weren't far off (an 1-0 loss to eventual champion), they will only get better. I also think that if the 'cyclic' thing is really true, it is time for an English team to win it, and City have the best chances of them lot.
 
Fitchett said:
Will be harder for Spain to win a World Cup without Dr. Fuentes though
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Long said that Pep wants to be Brazil's first ever foreign manager.
Maybe I'm making this up in my mind but wasn't it said he will never become Spain manager due to his Catalonia leanings?
 
Revan said:
3-4 UCL, an 80%+ title win rate, a World Cup and a revolution of football will make him by far the greatest manager in the history of football.

I think there is a good chance that he will do that, even if he doesn't manage in his end sixties. When he is 55 years old or so, he will probably eclipse the achievement of any manager that came before him.
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What happens when Carlo pads his title wins with Bayern?
There wouldn't be that much between them? Heck Carlo could stay at Bayern for a decade and own the CL.
That's just as likely as your Pep scenario.
 
Dumat12 said:
Yeah, and everything at Real was just honky dory. They hadn't won the cup and the league in 2 years, they were getting knocked out of the CL in group stages and couldn't pass the first knockouts in the CL.

Aside from that, he faced Barcelona (probably one of the greatest sides in football ever) with a Messi in his peak (the greatest footballer, no doubt about that) and one of the best midfielders in Xavi and Iniesta all entering their peak years.

Not an easy job at all, and the fact that he managed to fix all three - he won them the cup, he got them past the CL's group stages, and regularly gave them semi-finals and he won them the league that hasn't been won since him even though the current Barca side is much weaker than the one before that (Let's be real, even with Suarez-Messi-Neymar, this Barca side is far from what Barca used to be under Pep when they were killing teams left and right.
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The way you talk about Real when Mou got there, then you would say that Pep didn't have an easy time at Barcelona, right? That's just what I'm saying, if Madrid was such a challenge for Mourinho, no one can say something different for Guardiola in his first year at Barcelona.

And I'm sorry but I don't have the same opinion, I think this Barcelona is better than the 08/12 version, we have won almost as many titles, we have more weapons, the squad is better (this year's squad is just unbelivable) our rivals are better and we don't depend on luck as much as that team had to.

antohan said:
I'm not even remotely fussed about this manager record comparison stuff, but it's obvious that those challenges you point out that Guardiola faced, he faced them with nothing to lose. It was an opportunity. Mourinho has had something to lose reputation-wise for over a decade, yet he does indeed seek and take on new challenges.

In any case, Guardiola has nothing to do with this. You say it yourself: Madrid is the hardest job in football, but then say it wasn't exactly a challenge. You can't complain if people react to you dissing the manager.
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Well that's your opinion, when he took the job at Barcelona it could've been just a make it or break it. If he didn't manage to turn it around as fast as he did he could easily be out of job as a top manager forever. He took the risk of getting rid of Deco and Ronaldinho, wanted Eto'o out, benched Toure and gave his spot to Busquets, no one expected anything from Busquets. He put Pedro on the line when most of us thought he was just an "ok" player for the reserve team. If that didn't work and he got the sack then it would be the end, something similar to what happened to Neville at Valencia.

Reddevilboy said:
Yes I am aware of that but you never take into account of the fact that Real underachieved in the Champions League for many seasons prior to his arrival.

Since Real Madrid won the Champions League in 2001, here's their record:
2002-2003: Semi-finals (Del Bosque)
2003-2004: Quarter-finals (Queiroz)
2004-2005: Round of 16 (Camacho)
2005-2006: Round of 16 (Luxemburgo/Ramon Lopez)
2006-2007: Round of 16 (Capello)
2007-2008: Round of 16 (Schuster)
2008-2009: Round of 16 (Schuster)
2009-2010: Round of 16 (Pellegrini)
2010-2011: Semi-finals (Mourinho)
2011-2012: Semi-finals (Mourinho)
2012-2013: Semi-finals (Mourinho)

They have been knocked out in the round of 16 for 6 consecutive years and after Mourinho came in, they made it to the semi-finals on 3 consecutive seasons. I'd even dare say that this gave them the self-belief and mental strength to win La Decima with Ancelotti as Ancelotti took over the spine of Mourinho's team and I always hold this belief that it takes a team many near-misses to finally win the Champions League. Dortmund, Atletico Madrid and even City will get there one day.

You also seem to conveniently left out the fact that Pep failed to win the Champions League with Bayern too.

IMO, I think that Mourinho is one of Real's most successful managers as he made them competitive again in Europe and toppled one of the greatest Barca team.
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They underachieved because they were a joke, just as we (Barcelona) were a joke for half a decade, but we still were feckin Barcelona, it just took Rijkaard and Ronaldinho to turn it around, now I have to believe that if those two managed to change our history (and got rewarded with a place at Milan at Galatasay, kudos) then it was such a heavy task for Mourinho and Ronaldo with all that they had achieved before and with their ego and claims as "best manager and player ever"?

And again, I'm not downplaying Mou's role at Real, he did a good job, he went to war against Barcelona (but he didn't win it, knocked us to the ground two times, we still won the fight), he laid the foundations for la decima and even the 11th, but that's just what one of the best managers in the world can do when he has as much money as he wants and one of the better squads in history. He surely had it harder than Schuster or Zidane, but it was still just a fair challenge for Madrid standards, nothing impossible or to brag about for the rest of his life



P.S: I'd like to remind people in this post, English is not my native language, so keeping an argument with 4 people at the same time, not knowing who is who and trying to explain my views via wall of text is not easy, forgive me if I sometimes say something in a harsher way than I intended or if I sound extremely arrogant/petulant.
 
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cyberman said:
What happens when Carlo pads his title wins with Bayern?
There wouldn't be that much between them? Heck Carlo could stay at Bayern for a decade and own the CL.
That's just as likely as your Pep scenario.
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I have much doubt that Carlo will win many titles at Bayern, in fact, I think that BVB will win the league this season.

Carlo is just awful at league competitions. There will come a period in the second half of the season when Bayern will lose/draw a few matches in the row, IMO.

And anyway, his record is so much worse than Pep's. 3 league titles in 15+ seasons in Juve, Milano, Chelsea, Madrid and PSG is quite bad.
 
He really should shut up. I genuinely don't care how he thinks people see him, and he shouldn't either.

He should do his job and stop acting childishly.
 
Tom Van Persie said:
City are like their 2nd club now.
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Definitely. They look for any thread that possibly criticizes Pep or about someone supposedly criticizing him or having a pop at him.
Camilo said:
He really should shut up. I genuinely don't care how he thinks people see him, and he shouldn't either.

He should do his job and stop acting childishly.
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Did he say anything wrong or childish?
 
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