Jose Mourinho appreciation thread

[giorno]

I'm sure it was widely reported that Maguire was available for £40M that summer Mourinho wanted him, in our infinite wisdom we decided to wait another year and pay £80M instead.

Was it? Fair enough. Point doesn't change. Do you think the guy who had the club spend 40m on Bailly, 30 on Lindeloff and wanted to blow another 40 on Maguire, back-to-back-to-back, is someone whose judgement is worth trusting?

 

[Glorio]

I'm sure it was widely reported that Maguire was available for £40M that summer Mourinho wanted him, in our infinite wisdom we decided to wait another year and pay £80M instead.

Was it? Didn't hear about it myself and I've not really heard folks use it as a stick to beat us with. You'd think that would be a popular one, similar to the Antony debacle

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

His comment on the referee last night is an all timer. I was in stitches.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

‘He told me something incredible’

I was in tears watching this. He’s spectacular.

 

[TheGame]

 

[MiceOnMeth]

Was it? Fair enough. Point doesn't change. Do you think the guy who had the club spend 40m on Bailly, 30 on Lindeloff and wanted to blow another 40 on Maguire, back-to-back-to-back, is someone whose judgement is worth trusting?

After selling Blind, a better CB than both lindelof and Bailly and who could also play FB and DM

 

[Rodgerzzz]

Was it? Fair enough. Point doesn't change. Do you think the guy who had the club spend 40m on Bailly, 30 on Lindeloff and wanted to blow another 40 on Maguire, back-to-back-to-back, is someone whose judgement is worth trusting?

Was it? Didn't hear about it myself and I've not really heard folks use it as a stick to beat us with. You'd think that would be a popular one, similar to the Antony debacle

Excuse the source (the sun...), only one I could quickly find on my work PC but we were definitely looking at him for around that the summer before we ended spunking the £80million:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/foot...ransfer-news-harry-maguire-50m-jose-mourinho/

Totally agree with Bailly & Lindelof, although didn't we have Smalling, Jones & Rojo as the other centre back options so in hindsight you could see why he felt the need for a more reliable player.

 

[CallyRed]

Looks more like he was appealing for LBW

 

[pocco]

People aren't monoliths, so yes he can still get along with younger players. But his methods eventually wear them out. He was good at Roma for 2 seasons, and in his third he was a disaster. Which is the pattern of his career post Chelsea. The problem is, it's one thing to get the likes of Mancini, Pellegrini and Zalewski - people for whom being coached by José is the highlight of their existence - to buy in, quite another to get the Pogbas, Fabregas, etc, to do the same.

He is still a good manager by any metric you care to look at. He's also not a top manager anymore, by any metric you care to look at. Roma, Fener, Olympique Lyon, Porto, these are his level now

To be fair though, that is all guesswork as we don't know why some players do and don't buy into him. I have my own theories, and I think it has more to do with personality of some players he has worked under. Pogba was always going to be a dream or disaster between them on the face of it, given what we know about them both. There were times when they were good together, but Jose won't stand for some of the actions that Pogba did. I don't think it's necessarily a Gen Z thing or generational thing, but simply a player with a poor attitude.

I agree he's not a top manager at the moment. But I would argue that he hasn't had the opportunities to show that either, given the standard of the clubs he's been at. I do honestly think he'd do a good job if given something he can work with properly. I do like the guy and would like to see him have some good success just one last time, although not with another PL team.

 

[pocco]

Competing with United in Europe is not really an achievement, let's be honest.

No that is true, but we were favourites. Although we've probably been favourites for every game so far and haven't won a single on yet.

I didn't think much of the players Fener had last night, but I was pleased to see him set them up in a way that is considered more modern and progressive, it should put to bed this idea that he's a negative manager only. Some of the football Roma played was good too.

 

[giorno]

But I would argue that he hasn't had the opportunities to show that either, given the standard of the clubs he's been at. I do honestly think he'd do a good job if given something he can work with properly. I do like the guy and would like to see him have some good success just one last time, although not with another PL team.

He'd need to show the kind of amazing results he hasn't managed at these smaller clubs for any big club to roll the dice on him at this point. He's failed too much and too often and always in the same ways since leaving Madrid. No big club is gonna risk the guy whose most notable skill for the past decade has been falling out with his players, not unless he were pulling up trees in terms of results

 

[pocco]

He'd need to show the kind of amazing results he hasn't managed at these smaller clubs for any big club to roll the dice on him at this point. He's failed too much and too often and always in the same ways since leaving Madrid. No big club is gonna risk the guy whose most notable skill for the past decade has been falling out with his players, not unless he were pulling up trees in terms of results

Oh I agree, but it's difficult for anybody to do that with these teams as the players are just not that good. He had a player in his team last night that had only played in lower leagues before Fenerbahce.

But what is daft is that we've got people that say things like 'even Pep would struggle with this United squad', whilst in other threads people are slating Jose for only winning minor trophies with the like of Roma, or not winning anything with teams like Spurs. The expectations are just way off. But a guy like Jose doesn't just become a worse coach, or not recognise the changes in football. It's just bizarre to hear people think they understand modern football but he doesn't (I don't mean you). I think you hit the nail on the head with the fact that him falling out with people is probably why nobody will touch him. But I think he falls out with people because he's expected to deliver and not given the tools to do so.

 

[MadDogg]

I see this said a lot, but how do you think he's past it? Tactically? Lost his mojo?

Both.

Tactically the game moved past him, and rather than evolve he seemed to take the comparisons with Pep's football personally and decided to double-down on his own defensive style to try to prove it can beat the Pep-inspired possession football. Except it doesn't.

Mentally I also think what happened at Real broke his trust in players. Before that he tended to go out of his way to draw the attention to himself so as to protect the players and reduce the pressure they were under. After the way it ended at Real he started doing the exact opposite, throwing players under the bus so as to protect himself as soon as things start going wrong.

 

[MadDogg]

But after his 2nd place finish he was given Lee Grant, a 19 year old Dalot and Fred . I was with him for being pissed with the board. He wasn’t allowed to keep building after two promising seasons.

However the players that he had bought for big money before were failing and were some of the ones he wanted to spend big money on replacing. The other important thing that a lot of people who make your argument here tend to forget is that we know most of the players that he wanted us to sign that season. At the time they didn't look like great signings, and in hindsight not a single one of them other than maybe Peresic for a couple of years would have been a real success. I guess signing Maguire 12 months earlier for 10m less would have been more successful than signing him the following season, but that's a qualified 'success'.

So you're basically saying we should have allowed Mourinho to spend more big money to leave the squad in an even worse position (most of the players he wanted were on the older side). The club absolutely did the right thing not to allow Mourinho to do that. In saying that, the club itself should still have had better scouting and decision making to sign better players than it did. And if Mourinho had a problem with that, that's on him.

 

[MadDogg]

I'm sure it was widely reported that Maguire was available for £40M that summer Mourinho wanted him, in our infinite wisdom we decided to wait another year and pay £80M instead.

£40m? No, Leicester were holding out for £70m. Still less than what they then demanded (and we paid) the following season, but certainly not that much less.

 

[giorno]

Oh I agree, but it's difficult for anybody to do that with these teams as the players are just not that good. He had a player in his team last night that had only played in lower leagues before Fenerbahce.

The great managers are doing that just fine. Xabi Alonso, Gasperini, Amorim, Slot, even ten Hag, all have been managing the kind of results to make the big clubs take notice, at clubs with limited resources

Mourinho isn't as good as any of those guys

 

[Ole'sattheWheel]

I see this said a lot, but how do you think he's past it? Tactically? Lost his mojo?

yeah it's a weird one - the obvious thing to point to is the "game's changed" and his style doesn't work anymore, but I think there may be more to it in terms of him and his expectations of the clubs and players being warped somehow

 

[NotChatGPT]

So you, some guy sat on his sofa whilst posting on RedCafe, can recognise the changes in football, but Jose Mourinho can't? Could you not see a stark difference in his football last night to the football he's shown in the past? Give him the same team and same tactics he had at Chelsea and Real and I bet he'd still win titles.

Oh i have no doubt that Mourinho has an infinite amount of more football knowledge than me, doesn’t make much of a difference in terms of being able to deal with it.

 

[Deco10Legend]

I think he made bad choices in terms of jobs as well, Man Utd ok, poisoned chalice, but it was once in a lifetime opportunity.

Now Tottenham and Roma he overestimated his ability and chances of succeeding there.
Maybe should have waited more for PSG or something easier.

 

[pocco]

Oh i have no doubt that Mourinho has an infinite amount of more football knowledge than me, doesn’t make much of a difference in terms of being able to deal with it.

Deal with what? I'm not having a dig but genuinely curious. He wasn't just some flash in the pan manager, he was one of the best. A great analyst, a great man manager (when happy), hugely successful. You don't just lose the. Football isn't that complicated a game, I'm sure there's nothing he doesn't recognise himself that happens right now.

And last night I read surprised to see him taking a poor team on paper and establishing a pretty good brand of football with modern principles. Everything we've been told for years that he couldn't do. So now I'm wondering, what could he do if given the keys to a much better team?

 

[pocco]

I think he made bad choices in terms of jobs as well, Man Utd ok, poisoned chalice, but it was once in a lifetime opportunity.

Now Tottenham and Roma he overestimated his ability and chances of succeeding there.
Maybe should have waited more for PSG or something easier.

I don't know if he even overestimated his ability, but more others did. They expected miracles.

What I've found is that Jose talks a hell of a lot of sense. Hell say something outlandish and people think "oh Jose has lost the plot again" but a year or two down the line and you realise he was spot on. He saw something before anybody else. The time he said his 2nd place finish with us is one of his best achievements, we all laughed. But now it doesn't look so crazy. I think we took his success here for granted because we all thought we were still number 1. But it's took many years for us to realise and even accept that we actually aren't, and haven't been for a long time.

He was the one man involved with the club in the last 10 years that I can say I fully trusted his opinions and I genuinely felt he was wanting standards to be set that are expected here. Only the fans didn't listen, the club didn't listen. Instead they clapped the players and laughed at Pogba making a mockery of Jose, and us. That was the turning point for me when I realised we'd truly lost a grip as a club and a fan base.

 

[NotChatGPT]

I'm sure it was widely reported that Maguire was available for £40M that summer Mourinho wanted him, in our infinite wisdom we decided to wait another year and pay £80M instead.

Widely reported. Good one. They wanted a lot more than £40mill..

Maguire signed for Leicester in 2017 for a £12mill fee. The same transfer window where we signed Lindeløf for about 3 times that. A year later, after Maguires first season at Leicester, Mourinho wanted him and the potential fee was a world record one for a defender.

I think he made bad choices in terms of jobs as well, Man Utd ok, poisoned chalice, but it was once in a lifetime opportunity.

Now Tottenham and Roma he overestimated his ability and chances of succeeding there.
Maybe should have waited more for PSG or something easier.

I’d hardly call it a poisoned chalice. The club went a long way in terms of getting him every player he wanted, like Sanchez on a long term contract making him one of the best paid players in the league. It was just never enough.

Deal with what? I'm not having a dig but genuinely curious. He wasn't just some flash in the pan manager, he was one of the best. A great analyst, a great man manager (when happy), hugely successful. You don't just lose the. Football isn't that complicated a game, I'm sure there's nothing he doesn't recognise himself that happens right now.

And last night I read surprised to see him taking a poor team on paper and establishing a pretty good brand of football with modern principles. Everything we've been told for years that he couldn't do. So now I'm wondering, what could he do if given the keys to a much better team?

Deal with modern football and everything that comes with it. Fergie often spoke about needing to adapt to modern footballers where their needs are different. How you can’t apply the same method to all players and expect them to respond the same way. Mourinho was on the opposite end of that scale and he’d often create situations just to see how the player responded. At the end of the day it puts a strain on the team and after a while it collapses. There’s a reason his career has gone downhill and he now finds himself in Turkey, managing Fenerbache, and it’s not because he’s the same genius manager that he was 12 or so years ago, is it?

 

[Art]

Still think Newcastle will be a great fit for Jose. Bobby Robson's heir et all.

 

[The Cat]

He's great as long as he's not at your club.

 

[giorno]

And last night I read surprised to see him taking a poor team on paper and establishing a pretty good brand of football with modern principles. Everything we've been told for years that he couldn't do. So now I'm wondering, what could he do if given the keys to a much better team?

fenerbahce signed him to much fanfare, had a big transfer window for him, and so far are worse than last season

As for how Mourinho could go from one of the best managers ever to Fenerbache, the answer is the same for nearly every other great manager: he got old. Same as Capello, Lippi, Wenger, Robson, Dalglish, Clough, Trapattoni, Hitzfeld, Del Bosque, Cruyff, Van Gaal, Benitez, etc, etc

 

[Bastian]

By that point he wanted the club to get rid of Pogba - the player he made them sign for a PL record money just 2 years before...he also wanted to spend a record fee for Maguire - after having already spent big money on CBs the previous 2 summers...

Kinda understandable the club wouldn't trust his judgement anymore

I think I read recently that Pogba was a club signing, not a Jose signing. And as far as gen-z players are concerned, I think Pogba is in a league all by himself. Jose defended him staunchly for 18 months against constant criticism. But when Pogba started to really hit Peter Pan mode and started undermining the manager there was nothing left to do but bin him, and that's where we've had the cultural malaise for such a long while with players being able to undermine managers, not put in effort, constantly leak shit to the press, etc.

I am also not sure Jose identified the players bought. He definitely chose Zlatan and he definitely chose Matic, I'm not sure about the others. I remember one game against West Ham where Issa Diop had a good game against us and Jose had this pointed remark about good scouting (after we'd spent 31m on Lindelof in 2017 and 30m on Bailly in 2016).

Jose also made some comment about Lindelof's aerial ability or lack thereof as a pundit during an International tournament at which point Lindelof was taking part in the warm-up and subsequently missed a header right on cue. I don't think a man who is responsible for choosing him does that.

Another thing with the gen-z bit you put out, Lingard, who is one of the most immature, unprofessional and self-entitled players I've ever seen at United (and we've had a galore of them in recent years) worked his socks off for Jose.