I’d say Carrick has proved himself too...
Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added
- Thread starter Suedesi
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Ok, let's take a look. If we define proven as consistent on the highest level, has won trophies, and has been a major contributor in those wins:
De Gea - fair enough, but he's the one player nobody is questioning is world class
Pogba - He won because he was on a team that dominated Italian football (and still does without him), and he was far from a key player there. He's on the French national team that hasn't won anything, and it's also arguable that he's a key player there
Sanchez joined literally 2 games ago
Valencia - Ok, but he's not a difference maker
Lingard - Won cups, and has made his contributions in those cup wins, but not a key player, and not even a consistent player yet
Martial - Same as Lingard
Lukaku - Proven goal scorer on a smaller team. Unproven in a big team, CL, or on international stage
Sanchez, Matic, and De Gea are the three players that qualify as "proven".
Let me illustrate my point further; take a look at the couple of games that Sanchez played and compare him to the rest of the attackers (Martial, Lingard, Lukaku, Rashford). He does all of the following consistently throughout the game: control the ball, hold up the ball, get open, make simple passes, dribble without losing the ball, make penetrating passes, defensive work (pressure defenders, track back, tackle). None of the others (and you can throw Pogba in there too) do any of these things consistently, and for that reason I label them as unproven. If all of them at least put in the effort that Sanchez does, the team would perform exponentially better.
And to be honest, maybe Jose is wrong in trying to make Pogba into something that he's not, but nobody can tell me that Pogba is even trying. I mean look at his movement on defense; it looks more like pretending to play defense than actual defense. He's trying very hard not to catch anybody or get the ball. Not to mention the plain out ridiculous lack of decision making, when he constantly loses the ball in dangerous areas because he's trying to be fancy instead of playing it safe and doing the simple and logical thing.
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I think sooner or later the players will push Mourinho out of the club, like what Chelsea players did to him. They will stop giving their all for the manager.
Pogba was the key player for Juventus, there is no doubt about that. Pobga is proven player and just because he has 2 bad games doesn't make any difference.
Pogba was also named in Serie A team of the year in 3 out of 4 years and only season he didn't feature was his first year.
From football italia.
Pogba needs Pirlo and Vidal to get best out of him is one of the biggest myth. He made 33 starts in the league in 2015-16, next best was Marchisio with just 23. Then there are lot of players with 20 or less.
Pogba is proven as much as De Gea or Sanchez, if anything I would be say he is the player who showed bighest ability and potential (playing for Juventus even against biggest teams)in our team except De Gea
Why doesn't he take France onto his shoulders then? Why doesn't he boss the midfield for United? Because he's in the wrong position, that's it?
There's a youtube video of Henry explaining how Guardiola subbed him out of a game because he abandoned his position and went and scored a goal. Pogba abandons his position on a regular basis, and what does he produce when he does that?
In any case, the subject was not Pogba. My argument is that the best players on the team, who should be the difference makers, are unproven talents; and that they should shut up and put in some effort instead of whining to the newspapers about their best positions. God knows they are paid well enough to at least try doing what their manager tells them.
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Bossing midfield also depends on coach and how he sets up. We always boss against smaller teams and when your coach plays defensive game how can attack minded midfielder boss the game?
Midfield of Herrera, Rooney, Fellaini bossed the game against Chelsea at Stamford bridge when Jose was their manager.
Jose's team rarely goes toe to toe against biggest teams. His teams concede possession and play on counter, except we don't even play on counter, he just hoof the ball.
Next four games are crucial for him and the club.
Bad results in them and we could staring into the abyss.
Bad results in them and we could staring into the abyss.
Good point, this.
We beat Chelsea at home last year with Herrera, Fellaini and Pogba in midfield did we not? Against Arsenal we pressed, took a 2-0 lead and then sat on it. Spurs came to OT and we beat them this year?
We had around 30-35% possession against Middlesbrough and 40% against Southampton. If we talk about just few games then yes, you can make any point.
Also I was one of the few here who always argued we never play/played for draw at home, so I won't disagree with your point here. At home we will attack, away from home we won't. (maybe I should have mentioned that)
Well we attacked against Arsenal? Not our fault Arsenal capitulated and we took a 2-0 lead so quickly. It’s difficult to say against Spurs because we conceded so quickly but we were attacking and created good chances in the opening 20 mins. The lineup was not a defensive one. Game at Stamford Bridge was end to end and quite open despite us missing Pogba.
We created good chances in 20 mins and then gave up all together after second goal. We didn't even bother to compete, never mind toe to toe, at least on counter.
Did we create any chance against Chelsea? I don't remember that game properly but all I remember is Chelsea created so many chances and luckily all fell to Bakayoko.
Us giving up after 20 mins is not just on the manager. He didn't tell them to stop playing.
It was difficult for us to break from midfield without Pogba. We had 10 shots in that game for what its worth. I don’t remember it that well either but it was end to end especially at the beginning.
Edit - I remember Mkhi being anonymous as well
At times we look like a national team. Players look like they have never played with each other, playing players out of position, odd selections and the team looking disjointed overall.
Just need a good CL run, maybe win the FA Cup and finish top four and work on the squad in the summer. I hope Mourinho a bit more ruthless in selling players this time
Just need a good CL run, maybe win the FA Cup and finish top four and work on the squad in the summer. I hope Mourinho a bit more ruthless in selling players this time
Us giving up after 20 mins is not just on the manager. He didn't tell them to stop playing.
It was difficult for us to break from midfield without Pogba. We had 10 shots in that game for what its worth. I don’t remember it that well either but it was end to end especially at the beginning.
Edit - I remember Mkhi being anonymous as well
Us giving up after 20 mins is manager issue and the way he set up the game. He didn't even change anything at half time when Spurs were all over us and our midfield couldn't cope.
Btw this is what Jose said when he first managed in 2004.
Numerical advantage in midfield is very important, at least if not advantage, at least match them with numbers.
I agree with what he is saying in regards to 3 man midfield. The fact is though Spurs played with 2 as well. Lingard has been used to drop deeper into midfield as well. Perhaps Pogba did not follow instructions well enough, wasn’t defending well enough. At 2-0 down at HT he tried to reiterate to Pogba and the team what needed to happen. He did it again on the sidelines second half. He then subbed him off.
Lingard was suppised to work as a player who could drop deeper and also link play with our forwards. You can say it was right or wrong, but I suspect it was a problem with Pogba and Lingard which saw us overrun.
They were both subbed at the same time.
Spurs played 2 in midfield with 2 defensively strong midfielders, Eriksen and Alli then played compact game to outnumber our midfield. Like you said Lingard tried to do the same but failed. Problem is deeper than just numbers too.
Us giving up after 20 mins is not just on the manager. He didn't tell them to stop playing.
It was difficult for us to break from midfield without Pogba. We had 10 shots in that game for what its worth. I don’t remember it that well either but it was end to end especially at the beginning.
Edit - I remember Mkhi being anonymous as well
Our players gave up with 20 minutes to go. Our fans gave up with 10 games to go.
Yes but the idea was to have Lingard play like that was an offensive idea. He could have taken one of Martial or Lingard out the team and play Herrera to be more defensive. He thought Spurs would play with 2 and tried to match it instead. It didn’t work, and I suspect players like Pogba didn’t follow certain instructions defensively so we could transition into attacks effectively. I mean, I think that’s the point in having players like Lingard and Pogba, it’s about defending as a team and then the transition because they are both players who can play on the break.
I disagree with the logic that playing Lingard is attacking or playing 3 in the midfield is defensive. It's how you play that defines it rather than whom you play.
I’m saying that Mourinho used Lingard as the 3rd man and link player to be more offensive. If we play with a 3 man midfield we do lose a more natural link man and number 10. Im just offering ideas because I do not think we entered that game trying to be defensive. There was just issues for example with Pogba and what he was supposed to be doing defensively and positionally. That’s why him and Lingard were subbed.
Yeah agree with that.
Given that he’s considered to be the dogs bollocks in front of the cameras, todays presser is looking to be quite important in the midst of the recent shitstorm concerning Pogba, Alexis, our lack of balance, losses, conceding pathetic goals etc.
Probably the biggest test in his time here in regards to squad harmony, and will set the tone for the next few months.
Hopefully he just keeps it postive and the club will have to sort out their differences over the summer.
Yeah our upcoming run will make or break our season. Chelsea and Liverpool at home are great chances to put a buffer between us and them to help cement 2nd, but our performances against top teams have been poor so these could also mean sliding down the table. Two tough away games against Palace and West Ham where we probably can't afford to drop points but can see us doing so. Amongst all of that we have our 2 games v Seville, we should progress but the nature of cup competitions mean this could be a big banana peel. If we come out of these games with the right results then all's well, but if we continue to struggle though this period then we're up shit creek.
I hate our approach to football... absolutely detest it.
It's like any team, whether it's Barcelona or a team from the third tier. It's as if we surrender the ball and territory to any team that show ambition to press.
We are too reliant on out ability to defend.
It's like any team, whether it's Barcelona or a team from the third tier. It's as if we surrender the ball and territory to any team that show ambition to press.
We are too reliant on out ability to defend.
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It's almost like van Gaal never left.
Yep same. I love Mourinho but you look at the standard of our games like today and can't help but feel disappointed regardless of score line. And before anyone jumps on me, of course I would take winning over everything, but still don't agree with the tactics and shape.
he just can't get us playing. team doesn't even look like they train together
Look at our midfield and FBs. The constant mistakes from our CBs also is not helping. If we still play like this after getting in a couple of midfielders and a RB, then you can blame the manager.
Honestly , How many of you guys really look forward to our matches anymore.
We play like an LVG side with more expensive players. I don't blame mourinho since this is how he has always set up his teams and it's not good enough anymore. I'll support him while he's here but I think we need to make a change to move to the next step.
We play like an LVG side with more expensive players. I don't blame mourinho since this is how he has always set up his teams and it's not good enough anymore. I'll support him while he's here but I think we need to make a change to move to the next step.
I argued earlier last year that our football wasn't much better than Van Gaal's and, of course, it caused a fair degree of disagreement. I had a point then and I think you've got a point right now. We aren't even dominating possession like we did back then. We also have better players.
This is actually bemusing.
Regardless of the stupid VAR decision, we haven't looked good for the scoreline, we've let Huddersfield trample all over us, why haven't be pressed on and attacked to kill the game off, our (should of been allowed) second goal proves that if we attack we can do something pretty good. We're just inviting trouble with this garbage football. Also, no, the joy from watching United player football is quite non existent now
The anti football claims aimed at Jose were always stupid I thought, but the football we play.....
There are no legs in midfield, I don’t get what people want him to do in this situation. Chasing and pressing with this midfield would be suicide.
Come on. We have a much better selection pool than Huddersfield, no excuse to be over run aside from bad tactics.
The midfielders we have are decent but they are a certain type. Carrick has lost his legs completely even if he is still good on the ball.
dude he has been here for nearly two seasons. the team has no cohesiveness and is good at NOTHING. that falls on the manager.
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