Jordan Henderson | New Athletic Interview: I strongly believe that me playing in Saudi Arabia is a positive thing

Ajr said:
There is no scapegoating anyone.
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Quite literally is...you'd know..unless you live under a rock

Everyone knows the human rights abuses of Saudi, not just their LGBT laws unless you live under a rock. Even if being gay was legal, it wouldn't change any of their other abuses.
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My personal experience says most people don't. Yours says they do. In my previous post I suggested that most of the outspoken objectors likely couldn't name half the capital offenses there. It's all vague "human rights" statements parroting what they see others spouting about. And chances are many consider all middle Eastern states to be the same since I'm seeing copy paste from the Qatar discussion here
 
I'd love to see him on Have I Got News For You so Ian Hislop can rinse him the way he did Gary Neville.

The fallout would have been less if he'd just owned the decision and said the money for his family outweighs the atrocities he's supporting.
 
Appleyface said:
Wanted to add a perspective following a few recent posts on this thread.

Whether people appreciate it or not people who claim to be allies of a community will be held to a higher standard than those who do not.

Henderson went out of his way to show allyship to the LGBTQ+ community and personally I appreciated that, but when it became inconvenient for him he walked away. I am afraid he cannot have it both way, in my opinion it is immeasurably more damaging to the community as a queer person to see a supposed ally walk away when the going gets tough. Walking away when the going gets tough is not an option that is available to minorities of any group, which is why allies are so important. He was an ally until it might cost him a huge pay day, what kind of ally is that really?

He might not have enjoyed the negative attention, perhaps the money will help him get over it.
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This is it in a nutshell. Don’t make a big song and dance about how much you support LGBT and accept all the adulation and attention when it is positive if you can’t deal with the fact you’ll get slated for moving to Saudi.

I genuinely don’t have an issue with the Saudi League, any league is allowed to try and become No1 by throwing money at players (it’s basically what the PL did and Serie A did before that) and I’d respect players way more for just saying they couldn’t turn it down.
 
Appleyface said:
Wanted to add a perspective following a few recent posts on this thread.

Whether people appreciate it or not people who claim to be allies of a community will be held to a higher standard than those who do not.

Henderson went out of his way to show allyship to the LGBTQ+ community and personally I appreciated that, but when it became inconvenient for him he walked away. I am afraid he cannot have it both way, in my opinion it is immeasurably more damaging to the community as a queer person to see a supposed ally walk away when the going gets tough. Walking away when the going gets tough is not an option that is available to minorities of any group, which is why allies are so important. He was an ally until it might cost him a huge pay day, what kind of ally is that really?

He might not have enjoyed the negative attention, perhaps the money will help him get over it.
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Great post
 
Cloud7 said:
So who is an interview like this supposed to appeal to?
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Idiots (there are many of those out there).

And people who aren't actually idiots but who specialize in bad faith arguments: this is excellent material for them.

To what extent he has considered the specific benefits he'll get from appealing to idiots and/or trolls is another matter. He might belong firmly in the first category himself, and the statement could be regarded in light of that.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
This is it in a nutshell. Don’t make a big song and dance about how much you support LGBT and accept all the adulation and attention when it is positive if you can’t deal with the fact you’ll get slated for moving to Saudi.

I genuinely don’t have an issue with the Saudi League, any league is allowed to try and become No1 by throwing money at players (it’s basically what the PL did and Serie A did before that) and I’d respect players way more for just saying they couldn’t turn it down.
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Yeah exactly right.

To me it just implies a massively narcisstic human being - some people genuinely believe in the work they do for charity or good causes, or to help minority groups. Some people will simply use those causes to elevate themselves in front of other people in a "look how good a person I am" kind of fashion. Footballers rarely seem genuinely philanthropic to me, excepting the odd case (Juan Mata, Marcus Rashford) and oftentimes it feels like they are paying lip service to whatever the current popular cause is. See: G Neville, Jordan Henderson, Gary Lineker.

Those types happily try to hoover up all the adulation for being "good people", but as soon as a bigger paycheck comes it's out the window with their so called morality.
 
What a silly interview. There is nothing wrong with being a mercenary, but pretending he didn't leave for money is quite laughable.
 
Of course he left for money, we all know that

And if his allyship only was on social media and otherwise he did nothing tangible on ground to help LGBT folk (through donations of money/time/exposure), then yes he deserves all the flack he's getting for using the cause as a vehicle to get more popularity.

Otherwise, if he has tangibly helped LGBT causes in the past (proof of this is yet to be seen but I'm assuming this is the case) I struggle to see the logic in him deserving more flack than other players who have not supported LGBT rights and are playing in Saudi Arabia.

As it stands he's guilty of not being brutally honest. This is how the interview should have gone.

"I love LGBT people and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here to get paid."

"Including Saudi Arabia?"

"I love LGBT people and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here to get paid."

"What about those who say you playing in Saudi Arabia damages the LGBT cause?"

"How?"

"Well isn't the burden of proof on you Jordan to prove otherwise?"

"I love LGBT people and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here to get paid."
 
adexkola said:
"I love LGBT people and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here to get paid."
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"I love jews and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here at FC Adolf to get paid."
 
Tom Cato said:
Why wouldnt a guy who is an actual active advocate for LGBTQ rights playing in a league where he can voice his opinion from within? They dont give two shits what anyone outside of Arabia says.
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I’m not being funny but the legislation/laws/morals/principles/whatever are influenced directly by the Qaran. Why do you think one westerner can just go to their part of the world and his opinion can trump the ideology in a book that has been around for 1000s of years? (Btw I’m not saying their attitudes towards LGBTQIA+ folk are justified due to them having a religion to follow- I am instead speaking matter-of-factly)
 
JSArsenal said:
I don't get why "respecting" a religion is of more value than respecting who a person is. He says you have to respect both but to me that isn't possible when one interpretation of that religion criminalises people for being who they are.
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This. Not only that but you choose to follow a religion people don’t choose to be gay.
 
adexkola said:
Of course he left for money, we all know that

And if his allyship only was on social media and otherwise he did nothing tangible on ground to help LGBT folk (through donations of money/time/exposure), then yes he deserves all the flack he's getting for using the cause as a vehicle to get more popularity.

Otherwise, if he has tangibly helped LGBT causes in the past (proof of this is yet to be seen but I'm assuming this is the case) I struggle to see the logic in him deserving more flack than other players who have not supported LGBT rights and are playing in Saudi Arabia.

As it stands he's guilty of not being brutally honest. This is how the interview should have gone.

"I love LGBT people and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here to get paid."

"Including Saudi Arabia?"

"I love LGBT people and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here to get paid."

"What about those who say you playing in Saudi Arabia damages the LGBT cause?"

"How?"

"Well isn't the burden of proof on you Jordan to prove otherwise?"

"I love LGBT people and they should be free to go about their business everywhere. I also am here to get paid."
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Pretty much this.

And if you want to add fluff:
"I believe discrimination and persecution against the LGBTQ community has no place in modern society, however, in the twilight of my career I saw and took a rare opportunity to secure financial freedom for my family for generations"
 
Anyway I think he should have just come out and just say he went there for money. I don’t think he would be as demonised for it…he is not the first and last person ever to do questionable shit for money.
 
Spaghetti said:
Does anyone begrudge him for going for the money? He doesn’t need to dress it up as something it isn’t.

If I was offered an obscene amount of money to live a couple of years in Saudi Arabia, I’d be on the plane in a flash. And I’m sure most people would.
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Most likely, I guess it's a bit different for him though, he's not exactly penny pinching.

Personally, if I was set for life 50 times over, I would want to try La Liga or Serie A for a couple of seasons, imagine how nice the lifestyle for your family would be if you played for Real Sociedad, Valencia, Sevilla, Milan, Roma etc. but I guess he wanted the sweet spondoolies.
 
Sara125 said:
This. Not only that but you choose to follow a religion people don’t choose to be gay.
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I wonder how Henderson and co. Enjoy going to chop chop square. I honestly dont think they give damn.
 
adexkola said:
if he has tangibly helped LGBT causes in the past (proof of this is yet to be seen but I'm assuming this is the case)
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Why assume that without evidence? He said 'I wore the laces, I wore the armband', which kinda reads to me as 'what else do you want me to do?'.

It's pretty simple. He acted like an ally, benefitted from that, and then turned his back on that for the money. People are saying that they'd have more respect for him if he just said it was purely about the money - I'm not so sure I would be that generous. But it'd be honest at least.
 
Appleyface said:
Wanted to add a perspective following a few recent posts on this thread.

Whether people appreciate it or not people who claim to be allies of a community will be held to a higher standard than those who do not.

Henderson went out of his way to show allyship to the LGBTQ+ community and personally I appreciated that, but when it became inconvenient for him he walked away. I am afraid he cannot have it both way, in my opinion it is immeasurably more damaging to the community as a queer person to see a supposed ally walk away when the going gets tough. Walking away when the going gets tough is not an option that is available to minorities of any group, which is why allies are so important. He was an ally until it might cost him a huge pay day, what kind of ally is that really?

He might not have enjoyed the negative attention, perhaps the money will help him get over it.
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I don't agree with you on many things here but that's a very well written and framed post.

My biggest area of disagreement is that Henderson has willfully turned his back on the LGBT community and what I consider misled priorities and even hypocrisy.

An ally is not the same as a martyr. An ally has limits on what they can do to support you and ultimately, will need to serve themselves first.

What you and the rest of the LGBT community are looking for is a martyr. A self sacrificing individual in the name of the movement. That should be someone from within and it is both reckless and less meaningful to hold your allies to that expectation and then excoriate them for not falling on your sword.

Henderson is going to Saudi Arabia for his career - monetarily driven or not is moot - not to shun the LGBT movement. Frankly, you are not in the equation. Homophobia and transphobia are rife in the western world and in that arena, which is Henderson's home, he has actually supported you in (meaningless) ways that made you feel good about yourselves. If you're part of the movement it's absolutely a waste of time to focus your attention on this mediocre sporting figure going to a country that is back asswards for a thousand reasons expecting them to become enlightened in an area that even the US is failing miserably with, just because a few athletes shun their contracts?

I don't see LGBT folks leaving Budweiser and other major corpos in droves for reneging on their public U-turn on flying the rainbow flag. So many of my friends in the community still treat themselves to Chik fil A because "it doesn't really matter ", and yet these one or two athletes the barely speak English do?

The priorities need to be realigned.
 
adexkola said:
Sure Godwin.
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Godwin or not you have to admit that I have got a point. Or more generally you don't think it is objectionable to tell the abused that you are their friend and have their back and then suddenly go to the abuser and get paid. In what universe is that not morally bankrupt behavior?
 
Ted Lasso said:
What you and the rest of the LGBT community are looking for is a martyr. A self sacrificing individual in the name of the movement. That should be someone from within and it is both reckless and less meaningful to hold your allies to that expectation and then excoriate them for not falling on your sword.
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Kinda sounds like you're saying "we'll support you, but only up to the point where we have to actually do something that might inconvenience us". That inconvenience or 'self-sacrifice' is surely part of it, no? Whether that's challenging someone's homophobic viewpoints even though it might make the social setting a bit awkward, or whether that's not working to legitimise a such a regime that has laws against the community.
 
Ted Lasso said:
I don't agree with you on many things here but that's a very well written and framed post.

My biggest area of disagreement is that Henderson has willfully turned his back on the LGBT community and what I consider misled priorities and even hypocrisy.

An ally is not the same as a martyr. An ally has limits on what they can do to support you and ultimately, will need to serve themselves first.

What you and the rest of the LGBT community are looking for is a martyr. A self sacrificing individual in the name of the movement. That should be someone from within and it is both reckless and less meaningful to hold your allies to that expectation and then excoriate them for not falling on your sword.

Henderson is going to Saudi Arabia for his career - monetarily driven or not is moot - not to shun the LGBT movement. Frankly, you are not in the equation. Homophobia and transphobia are rife in the western world and in that arena, which is Henderson's home, he has actually supported you in (meaningless) ways that made you feel good about yourselves. If you're part of the movement it's absolutely a waste of time to focus your attention on this mediocre sporting figure going to a country that is back asswards for a thousand reasons expecting them to become enlightened in an area that even the US is failing miserably with, just because a few athletes shun their contracts?

I don't see LGBT folks leaving Budweiser and other major corpos in droves for reneging on their public U-turn on flying the rainbow flag. So many of my friends in the community still treat themselves to Chik fil A because "it doesn't really matter ", and yet these one or two athletes the barely speak English do?

The priorities need to be realigned.
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I absolutely think football needs to a martyr to go to and SA to get stoned.
 
BD said:
Why assume that without evidence? He said 'I wore the laces, I wore the armband', which kinda reads to me as 'what else do you want me to do?'.

It's pretty simple. He acted like an ally, benefitted from that, and then turned his back on that for the money. People are saying that they'd have more respect for him if he just said it was purely about the money - I'm not so sure I would be that generous. But it'd be honest at least.
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I mean, everyone here is assuming the opposite. I flipped a coin and went with heads.

And if he only did social media activism and wearing the bands, then fire away. The criticism from LGBT people included comments about his work meaning so much to them... if the work in question was just tweets and laces then talk about being easily impressed.
 
Ted Lasso said:
I don't agree with you on many things here but that's a very well written and framed post.

My biggest area of disagreement is that Henderson has willfully turned his back on the LGBT community and what I consider misled priorities and even hypocrisy.

An ally is not the same as a martyr. An ally has limits on what they can do to support you and ultimately, will need to serve themselves first.

What you and the rest of the LGBT community are looking for is a martyr. A self sacrificing individual in the name of the movement. That should be someone from within and it is both reckless and less meaningful to hold your allies to that expectation and then excoriate them for not falling on your sword.

Henderson is going to Saudi Arabia for his career - monetarily driven or not is moot - not to shun the LGBT movement. Frankly, you are not in the equation. Homophobia and transphobia are rife in the western world and in that arena, which is Henderson's home, he has actually supported you in (meaningless) ways that made you feel good about yourselves. If you're part of the movement it's absolutely a waste of time to focus your attention on this mediocre sporting figure going to a country that is back asswards for a thousand reasons expecting them to become enlightened in an area that even the US is failing miserably with, just because a few athletes shun their contracts?

I don't see LGBT folks leaving Budweiser and other major corpos in droves for reneging on their public U-turn on flying the rainbow flag. So many of my friends in the community still treat themselves to Chik fil A because "it doesn't really matter ", and yet these one or two athletes the barely speak English do?

The priorities need to be realigned.
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I don't think you really understand what an ally is. I would suspect, no offence intended, that this is probably a bit of a distant and purely theoretical matter for you, considering your messages.
 
Gehrman said:
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The criticism by Stephen Knight there is a bit too binary and unfair. The campaigns weren't done with the intent to change any laws, they were an expression of solidarity and perhaps a message aimed inwardly at football (fans and players) rather than national laws or rights. Henderson wearing rainbow laces can have a positive impact on gay footballers (of which still none are out despite the UK's liberal laws) and should not be disregarded as empty virtue signalling. He can do good without necessarily being on the frontlines, especially when those frontlines can be against a country like Saudi Arabia.
 
jadaba said:
The criticism by Stephen Knight there is a bit too binary and unfair. The campaigns weren't done with the intent to change any laws, they were an expression of solidarity and perhaps a message aimed inwardly at football (fans and players) rather than national laws or rights. Henderson wearing rainbow laces can have a positive impact on gay footballers (of which still none are out despite the UK's liberal laws) and should not be disregarded as empty virtue signalling. He can do good without necessarily being on the frontlines, especially when those frontlines can be against a country like Saudi Arabia.
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Id say wearing rainbow coloured what ever falls completely on its face when you decide to sign a contract with an employer who kills homosexuals for being homosexual.
 
fck said:
Godwin or not you have to admit that I have got a point. Or more generally you don't think it is objectionable to tell the abused that you are their friend and have their back and then suddenly go to the abuser and get paid. In what universe is that not morally bankrupt behavior?
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Again, if it was just talk, you'd have a point.

If all he did was tell the abused, "I'm your friend", and then takes money from the abuser, advocating harm against the abuser in the process, then sure that's morally bankrupt.

If only taking money from the abuser is significant enough to be deemed morally bankrupt, then it makes little sense only railing against Henderson, when there are 88 players who start for Saudi clubs every weekend and on a net basis, have done the same kind of harm while doing nothing positive in terms of LGBT rights.

For what it's worth, I don't think simply getting paid by Saudi Arabia (whether you play in their national League or do consultancy work for Saudia Airlines) is morally bankrupt. Promoting or supporting harm against LGBT people in Saudi Arabia is morally bankrupt.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Most likely, I guess it's a bit different for him though, he's not exactly penny pinching.

Personally, if I was set for life 50 times over, I would want to try La Liga or Serie A for a couple of seasons, imagine how nice the lifestyle for your family would be if you played for Real Sociedad, Valencia, Sevilla, Milan, Roma etc. but I guess he wanted the sweet spondoolies.
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Milan is a dump
 
MrWilliams said:
My point is these SJ campaigns are all lip service. Kneel down for ‘Black Lives Matter’ but what has really changed?

Euro nations wanted to wear the One Love armband at WC’22 but once a little pressure came they folded.

These campaigns are puffery for people to feel like they actually did something.
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So non if these campains have done anything?
Sad to hear that racism, homophobia and sexism is still at the same place now as decades ago. If only we would just stop fighting and campaining we will probably progress.
 
Tom Cato said:
So which ones of you who are extremely against Hendo playing in Saudi Arabia, while being a strong LGBTQ supporter, also watched the Qatar world cup?

Why wouldnt a guy who is an actual active advocate for LGBTQ rights playing in a league where he can voice his opinion from within? They dont give two shits what anyone outside of Arabia says.
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Which of us are criticising a single person that sold his morals and every one of his principles to sign a contract in the one place that goes against all of them?..

… also watched a global tournament that was sold illegally to a state that held the tournament?

All of us. Because your point is mental.
 
It's always funny that people make it seem like his choice was either go to KSA and earn or shit load of money, or remain in the UK/Europe and be poor.

When in reality, it's KSA's shit load of money vs UK/Europe's (slightly less) shit load of money that'll still make him richer than majority of the world.

Greed is a wonderful thing, the money is just never enough, is it?
 
Seveneric said:
It's always funny that people make it seem like his choice was either go to KSA and earn or shit load of money, or remain in the UK/Europe and be poor.

When in reality, it's KSA's shit load of money vs UK/Europe's (slightly less) shit load of money that'll still make him richer than majority of the world.

Greed is a wonderful thing.
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Or,

KSA's shit load of money, and be called a hypocrite by some people, but otherwise have no impact on any societal trends (xLGBTharm = 0)

vs

UK/Europe's lot of money, and be hailed by some people, but otherwise have no impact on any societal trends (xLGBTharm = 0)

Easy decision there, unless you value what people think about you over more money (like Kroos)
 
adexkola said:
Or,

KSA's shit load of money, and be called a hypocrite by some people, but otherwise have no impact on any societal trends (xLGBTdeaths = 0)

vs

UK/Europe's lot of money, and be hailed by some people, but otherwise have no impact on any societal trends (xLGBTdeaths = 0)

Easy decision there, unless you value what people think about you over more money (like Kroos)
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So a Liverpool legend does nothing good for the LGBTQ community by speaking up for them?
Of course people who other people idolize have an impact on social trends.
 
All I’ve ever tried to do is help. And when I’ve been asked for help, I’ve gone above and beyond to help. I’ve worn the laces. I’ve worn the armband.
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He said this?

Ok, he deserves all the flack he's getting, I renounce all my statements in support of Henderson
 
adexkola said:
Or,

KSA's shit load of money, and be called a hypocrite by some people, but otherwise have no impact on any societal trends (xLGBTharm = 0)

vs

UK/Europe's lot of money, and be hailed by some people, but otherwise have no impact on any societal trends (xLGBTharm = 0)

Easy decision there, unless you value what people think about you over more money (like Kroos)
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Yes, that's true. Until we see that Henderson's signing leads to increase in LGBT suicides in the UK, or an increase in gay people being murdered in KSA, there really is no harm or negative impact that a known LGBT "ally" playing in an openly anti-gay country can have.
 
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