[NotoriousISSY]

He's not really shown a great deal of quality (like others) since 2013 before Sir Alex retired. It's worrying as far as I'm concerned because I thought the rough diamond had finally been shaped by then but he shows far less composure in possession nowadays, this season has made a few notable errors (one or two which have led to goals) and the injuries are creeping back too.

He's one of those who you'd have to say is quite dispensable but he has the quality somewhere in him, so hopefully he can nail it soon enough. Chris Smalling has been notably worse more recently though, and what worries me about that is so many people on here really rate Smalling, and for some reason I just never have. He epitomises gormless when it comes to having to play football from the back.

 

[Getsme]

He's had some good sustained run of form, but has never demonstrated that he's a truly world class defender. At his best, he's very good, but not at that very top level. I don't really seem him getting there, either.

We don't have any defenders that are World Class, not one. Should we get rid of them all? In fact through the whole team we only have two players who would be considered to be in the category. In midfield we only have Di Maria and up front only Falcao would be considered World Class.
Leaves us kinda short doesn't it.

 

[ivaldo]

We don't have any defenders that are World Class, not one. Should we get rid of them all? In fact through the whole team we only have two players who would be considered to be in the category. In midfield we only have Di Maria and up front only Falcao would be considered World Class.
Leaves us kinda short doesn't it.

That really depends on how you interpret 'world class' doesn't it. Evans has been oyr worst defender this season by a considerable distance, is old and looks far less likely to ever reach his potential, which is lower than the likes of Jones, Smalling and probably even Blackett, that's why.

 

[Getsme]

That really depends on how you interpret 'world class' doesn't it. Evans has been oyr worst defender this season by a considerable distance, is old and looks far less likely to ever reach his potential, which is lower than the likes of Jones, Smalling and probably even Blackett, that's why.

He's played 2.5 league games this season, while he has been on the pitch we have conceded one goal.
He hasn't been our worst defender, he has make some mistakes but which defender hasn't this season, he's 26, since when has that been old

 

[ivaldo]

He's played 2.5 league games this season, while he has been on the pitch we have conceded one goal.
He hasn't been our worst defender, he has make some mistakes but which defender hasn't this season, he's 26, since when has that been old

Typo there, was supposed to be oldER. No he hasnt played 2.5 games, don't just pick and chose which manner of football you judge him on, why ignore his shameful performance against MK Dons for example or anything in preseason? Over the last few years he actually gotten worse.

 

[Getsme]

Typo there, was supposed to be oldER. No he hasnt played 2.5 games, don't just pick and chose which manner of football you judge him on, why ignore his shameful performance against MK Dons for example or anything in preseason? Over the last few years he actually gotten worse.

His shameful performance, it was the entire team. It was a makeshift team in which it was his first game back in ages, most of that team aren't even at the Club now.
Over the last few years he's getting worse, instead of saying it prove it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He's probably the only senior defender to exclusively play in that awful 352 which blatantly confused the shit out of everyone. Not to mention he was usually playing alongside rookie defenders who have made our defence look terrible even when they played in a familiar formation (e.g. Blackett vs Leicester) Bit stupid to make any conclusions based on that small sample of games.

Last season he had a spell of playing really well. One of only two or three United players you could say that about. Obviously, injury derailed his season but its ridiculous the way this is getting ignore and people have decided he's our worst defender now after a tiny sample of games, in a crappy formation.

 

[ivaldo]

His shameful performance, it was the entire team. It was a makeshift team in which it was his first game back in ages, most of that team aren't even at the Club now.
Over the last few years he's getting worse, instead of saying it prove it.

Don't be ridiculous, why don't you 'prove' he isn't deteriorating, however you do that I don't know. Again you can't pick and choose which games, it was a totally inexperienced back line and he shouldve lead by example, letting 4 in against a league 1 side isnt shameful?

 

[Getsme]

Don't be ridiculous, why don't you 'prove' he isn't deteriorating, however you do that I don't know. Again you can't pick and choose which games, it was a totally inexperienced back line and he shouldve lead by example, letting 4 in against a league 1 side isnt shameful?

Of course it is, it was a shameful team performance as I have ever seen, but it was a team full of players who had never played together, a team that only had their first shot on target on 70 odd minutes, a team that looked disjointed and unorganised a team full of players who are no longer at the Club or have been loaned out. However, when playing with regular first team players we have only conceded 1 goal when he has played and 9 when he hasn't. (2.5 played, 4.5 missed)

You say it's ridiculous for me to ask you to prove or give legitimate reasons as to why he has 'gotten worse' over the last couple of years. Why? Surely it shouldn't be that hard to prove, right?
I've gave reasons many times in this thread why I think he is a good player, I'm not going to repeat them over and over again.

 

[ivaldo]

Of course it is, it was a shameful team performance as I have ever seen, but it was a team full of players who had never played together, a team that only had their first shot on target on 70 odd minutes, a team that looked disjointed and unorganised a team full of players who are no longer at the Club or have been loaned out. However, when playing with regular first team players we have only conceded 1 goal when he has played and 9 when he hasn't. (2.5 played, 4.5 missed)

You say it's ridiculous for me to ask you to prove or give legitimate reasons as to why he has 'gotten worse' over the last couple of years. Why? Surely it shouldn't be that hard to prove, right?
I've gave reasons many times in this thread why I think he is a good player, I'm not going to repeat them over and over again.

Yes, a game in which he was the leader, the experienced playing who's job it was to guide the fringe and younger plays through, a game against a league 1 side, LEAGUE ONE, a game in which he was disasterous, but yeah we shouldn't count that when looking at his performances so far...

Please, show me how I can prove that he is accident prone, has been positioning poor, has made several errors in the short time he's played for us. Its funny how your opinion is enough to prove that he's a good player but you won't accept mine without evidence, no? It already appears painfully obvious that the only thing that matters when judging a player to you is their stats.

You've already tried manipulating those stats too, telling me that he has only conceded one goal for us, despite being present when we shipped 4 against MK Dons. You discount that because the players around him were poor but you're happy for him to take credit for his defensive performances in those '2.5 games', funny how you fail to mention the players around him then, you can't have it both ways.

 

[Getsme]

Yes, a game in which he was the leader, the experienced playing who's job it was to guide the fringe and younger plays through, a game against a league 1 side, LEAGUE ONE, a game in which he was disasterous, but yeah we shouldn't count that when looking at his performances so far...

Please, show me how I can prove that he is accident prone, has been positioning poor, has made several errors in the short time he's played for us. Its funny how your opinion is enough to prove that he's a good player but you won't accept mine without evidence, no? It already appears painfully obvious that the only thing that matters when judging a player to you is their stats.

You've already tried manipulating those stats too, telling me that he has only conceded one goal for us, despite being present when we shipped 4 against MK Dons. You discount that because the players around him were poor but you're happy for him to take credit for his defensive performances in those '2.5 games', funny how you fail to mention the players around him then, you can't have it both ways.

Do you even read posts, or just post the same old stuff for the sake of it? Conceding goals in an unorganised team who have never played together, who had most likely had little to no training together always has the potential to go wrong. We didn't get a shot on target until the 70th odd minute, even though we had Welbeck, Hernandez and Januzaj in the team. Obviously Evans has to take some of the blame, if I remember correctly he was at fault for one of the goals but as a team the performance was truly awful.
When he's played with more senior players his performances has been better, he was playing well against Leicester until he got injured, an injury that came about due to a good tackle if I remember correctly. I'm not ignoring the MK Dons game, but when put into perspective you should be able to understand why. It's like saying he conceded 4 in a reserve game so that should count against him, that's the standard of player he had around him a team of players unfamiliar with each other, It's just another stick for those with blinkered vision to hit him with.

I haven't said my opinion is enough to prove he is a good player, again, by failing to properly read my post you missed the part where I said 'I've gave reasons many times in this thread why I think he is a good player, I'm not going to repeat them over and over again'

You discount that because the players around him were poor but you're happy for him to take credit for his defensive performances in those '2.5 games', funny how you fail to mention the players around him then, you can't have it both ways.

So a player won't play better with better players around him?

 

[Viral United]

For some reason he is the new scapegoat, no idea why. Some posters on here tend to jump on the bandwagon when a player is singled out and only have tunnel vision when it comes to talking about or discussing him.

Evans and Nani are always scapegoat for some people.
When they can't blame anyone they blame this players.

You will never going to win Evans argument.

 

[Getsme]

Evans and Nani are always scapegoat for some people.
When they can't blame anyone they blame this players.

You will never going to win Evans argument.

I know, but what can you do

 

[Loublaze]

The good thing for Northern Irish fans is that once we sell Evans they have McNair to look forward to seeing in a red shirt.

 

[Mrs Smoker]

Or better yet, Evans AND McNair.

 

[Nighteyes]

Evans has not been scapegoated. He's actually been shite this season and has looked all over the place.

That's not to say he's not a good player, just a player in bad form.

 

[Getsme]

Evans has not been scapegoated. He's actually been shite this season and has looked all over the place.

That's not to say he's not a good player, just a player in bad form.

I'm not saying he's been brilliant, but in the league he has played 2.5 games and conceded one goal, hardly shocking stuff.

 

[Getsme]

The good thing for Northern Irish fans is that once we sell Evans they have McNair to look forward to seeing in a red shirt.

Is McNair World class now?

 

[ivaldo]

Do you even read posts, or just post the same old stuff for the sake of it? Conceding goals in an unorganised team who have never played together, who had most likely had little to no training together always has the potential to go wrong. We didn't get a shot on target until the 70th odd minute, even though we had Welbeck, Hernandez and Januzaj in the team. Obviously Evans has to take some of the blame, if I remember correctly he was at fault for one of the goals but as a team the performance was truly awful.
When he's played with more senior players his performances has been better, he was playing well against Leicester until he got injured, an injury that came about due to a good tackle if I remember correctly. I'm not ignoring the MK Dons game, but when put into perspective you should be able to understand why. It's like saying he conceded 4 in a reserve game so that should count against him, that's the standard of player he had around him a team of players unfamiliar with each other, It's just another stick for those with blinkered vision to hit him with.

I haven't said my opinion is enough to prove he is a good player, again, by failing to properly read my post you missed the part where I said 'I've gave reasons many times in this thread why I think he is a good player, I'm not going to repeat them over and over again'



So a player won't play better with better players around him?

Don't be so idiotic, its MK Dons for feck sake!!!! They play in league 1! We had established internationals playing for us, we shouldn't be losing that game let alone conceding 4! It doesn't take ANYTHING away from the fact he was as absolute horseshit in that game and was directly responsible for at least one of those goals, he should be a shining light playing with lesser players, not worse than them.

"I've gave reasons many times in this thread why I think he is a good player, I'm not going to repeat them over and over again", that's your opinion that youre not willing to share with me yet you want me to PROVE he's been poor, why don't you PROVE to me he hasn't been, understand the difference between proof and opinion yet or perhaps instead of insulating I havent read your post you should have taken a little more time reading mine? If you want me to prove he's been poor, you need to prove he hasnt.

You claim I have blinkered vision when it comes to Evans but I'm willing to judge him on all games played, not just the ones that I fancy. He's become so accident prone of late he's become a complete liability, for me he's now behind Jones, Smalling, McNair and Blackett.

 

[Getsme]

Don't be so idiotic, its MK Dons for feck sake!!!! They play in league 1! We had established internationals playing for us, we shouldn't be losing that game let alone conceding 4! It doesn't take ANYTHING away from the fact he was as absolute horseshit in that game and was directly responsible for at least one of those goals, he should be a shining light playing with lesser players, not worse than them.

"I've gave reasons many times in this thread why I think he is a good player, I'm not going to repeat them over and over again", that's your opinion that youre not willing to share with me yet you want me to PROVE he's been poor, why don't you PROVE to me he hasn't been, understand the difference between proof and opinion yet or perhaps instead of insulating I havent read your post you should have taken a little more time reading mine? If you want me to prove he's been poor, you need to prove he hasnt.

You claim I have blinkered vision when it comes to Evans but I'm willing to judge him on all games played, not just the ones that I fancy. He's become so accident prone of late he's become a complete liability, for me he's now behind Jones, Smalling, McNair and Blackett.

Calm down

 

[Loublaze]

Is McNair World class now?

Er no....never said that. Maybe he'll at least be dependable.

 

[Loublaze]

Calm down

Oh the irony...

 

[Getsme]

Er no....never said that. Maybe he'll at least be dependable.

Yeah, maybe, but I thought we were only after World Class defenders like Vidic, Rio, Southgate and Stam
Joke

 

[Getsme]

Oh the irony...

Where?

 

[Loublaze]

Yeah, maybe, but I thought we were only after World Class defenders like Vidic, Rio, Southgate and Stam
Joke

We should be. I didn't say anything about McNair being a first team regular or being the answer to our problems. With Evans out of the way maybe he or another youth player can go on to replace him as a reliable backup player.

 

[Getsme]

We should be. I didn't say anything about McNair being a first team regular or being the answer to our problems. With Evans out of the way maybe he or another youth player can go on to replace him as a reliable backup player.

Why does a Evans have to be out of the way for that to happen?

 

[Nighteyes]

I'm not saying he's been brilliant, but in the league he has played 2.5 games and conceded one goal, hardly shocking stuff.

You need to watch the Burnley game again. Yes, we kept a clean sheet but it wasn't because we defended well. Evans was dreadful in that game and only De Gea's save prevented from repeating what he did against MK Dons. Wasn't much better in the first half against QPR either and put unnecessary pressure on some of our other players with his shoddy passing.

 

[Getsme]

You need to watch the Burnley game again. Yes, we kept a clean sheet but it wasn't because we defended well. Evans was dreadful in that game and only De Gea's save prevented from repeating what he did against MK Dons. Wasn't much better in the first half against QPR either and put unnecessary pressure on some of our other players with his shoddy passing.

Our entire team performance in the Burnley game wasn't great, yes Evans wasn't at his best but he was coming back from a long layoff. Against QPR he had a good game, he stopped a certain goal after a de Gea and a Rojo mix up and was starting to show good form in the Leicester game before that unfortunate injury.

 

[Still ill]

Rozay posted coherently about this in the Ron Vlaar thread......

"I wouldn't mind Concrete myself. I don't think we necessarily need a 'World-Class defender'. That is just the result of the short-termists we have become of late and have lost sight of what it takes to build a top side I think. It is panic.

Our league has been full of teams with very good defences for years simply made up of good, organised defences. Tony Pulis doesn't require Mats Hummels to get a team to stop conceding every half an hour, for example. I also think that our defenders are actually good enough anyway, although I do hold question marks re: Evans.

The likes of Demichelis has come into an organised back-four at City and been excellent. Concrete could help us to improve. We are getting the basics wrong at the back at the minute. I reckon the line between a 'world-class centre half' and a 'good' one can be a bit blurry in my opinion anyway. It largeley depends on what team you play for, for starters. I think centre-half is the one position where it is not as simple as taking a world class player out of one team and putting him in another and expecting world class performances. The whole teamdefends.

I think Rio Ferdinand, for instance, was undoubted world-class. Vidic, however, I think, was certainly a world class player in the end, but not necessarily more talented than Vlaar and in the Villa side may have looked little better. The conditions at United were just right for Nemanja's strengths to blossom, but I do believe that another player in his mould could have probably replaced him competently who may well have spent most of the last decade at Europa League level.

Basically, some teams just know how to defend. We don't right now. I'm more inclined to believe that could be fixed on the training ground (and in the medical centre) as much as it could be in the transfer market. I think Senderos is the worst PL centre-half of recent times (although Mike Williamson is rapidly closing on him), but even he has had excellent international tournaments in the Swiss defence. Materazzi was a nobody struggling at Everton, but in the Inter team he became a CL winner and World Cup winning international regular. Right now, I don't think Hummels would change much. Bringing in Tony Pulis to fix our defence would be more effective, providing he has fit defenders to work with anyway."

Centre-halves more than possibly any other position on the pitch need context when discussing their performances. The unit that they are part of is hugely important. My contention would be that when Jonny has been part of a settled unit, he's been good, outstanding at times. I would like to see him judged when we have settled in to a defensive system that we're happy with, in a partnership that doesn't change from one week to the next. If anyone thinks the solution to all our defensive woes is parachuting Mats Hummels in full-stop, they're kidding themselves.

 

[Getsme]

Spoiler

Rozy posted coherently about this in the Ron Vlaar thread......

"I wouldn't mind Concrete myself. I don't think we necessarily need a 'World-Class defender'. That is just the result of the short-termists we have become of late and have lost sight of what it takes to build a top side I think. It is panic.

Our league has been full of teams with very good defences for years simply made up of good, organised defences. Tony Pulis doesn't require Mats Hummels to get a team to stop conceding every half an hour, for example. I also think that our defenders are actually good enough anyway, although I do hold question marks re: Evans.

The likes of Demichelis has come into an organised back-four at City and been excellent. Concrete could help us to improve. We are getting the basics wrong at the back at the minute. I reckon the line between a 'world-class centre half' and a 'good' one can be a bit blurry in my opinion anyway. It largeley depends on what team you play for, for starters. I think centre-half is the one position where it is not as simple as taking a world class player out of one team and putting him in another and expecting world class performances. The whole teamdefends.

I think Rio Ferdinand, for instance, was undoubted world-class. Vidic, however, I think, was certainly a world class player in the end, but not necessarily more talented than Vlaar and in the Villa side may have looked little better. The conditions at United were just right for Nemanja's strengths to blossom, but I do believe that another player in his mould could have probably replaced him competently who may well have spent most of the last decade at Europa League level.

Basically, some teams just know how to defend. We don't right now. I'm more inclined to believe that could be fixed on the training ground (and in the medical centre) as much as it could be in the transfer market. I think Senderos is the worst PL centre-half of recent times (although Mike Williamson is rapidly closing on him), but even he has had excellent international tournaments in the Swiss defence. Materazzi was a nobody struggling at Everton, but in the Inter team he became a CL winner and World Cup winning international regular. Right now, I don't think Hummels would change much. Bringing in Tony Pulis to fix our defence would be more effective, providing he has fit defenders to work with anyway."

Centre-halves more than possibly any other position on the pitch need context when discussing their performances. The unit that they are part of is hugely important. My contention would be that when Jonny has been part of a settled unit, he's been good, outstanding at times. I would like to see him judged when we have settled in to a defensive system that we're happy with, in a partnership that doesn't change from one week to the next. If anyone thinks the solution to all our defensive woes is parachuting Mats Hummels in full-stop, they're kidding themselves.

Good post

 

[ivaldo]

Calm down

What @Loublaze said.

 

[Loublaze]

Why does a Evans have to be out of the way for that to happen?

Because i'd rather see a promising player get game time than one who has been here for years and who will never fulfill his promise. You gave the 'back from a long lay off' excuse for Evan's recent poor showings. Whether its a valid excuse or not, its still a big problem because Evans is usually coming back from a big layoff. Must we just accept it with this player?

 

[Getsme]

Again

Because i'd rather see a promising player get game time than one who has been here for years and who will never fulfill his promise. You gave the 'back from a long lay off' excuse for Evan's recent poor showings. Whether its a valid excuse or not, its still a big problem because Evans is usually coming back from a big layoff. Must we just accept it with this player?

Again you failed to answer my question, why do we have to get rid of Evans for this to happen.

 

[Getsme]

What @Loublaze said.

I asked him so I'll ask you as well, where is the irony?

 

[Lu Tze]

why do we have to get rid of Evans for this to happen.

Because there's only a finite amount of minutes available every year.

 

[Loublaze]

Again

Again you failed to answer my question, why do we have to get rid of Evans for this to happen.

Are you seriously asking this? When Evans makes a full recovery he's probably going to start a few games, but seeing as he's failed to make more than 7 consecutive appearances in the last two years he's probably going to wind up injured again. He'll be back from another lay off, play like shit, you'll make excuses and the cycle will continue. Instead of affording him chance after chance only for him to be disrupted, i'd rather we gave the game time that Evans would other wise get to another player. Simple as that. We're going nowhere with Evans, no progress, zero, zilch! Why delay the inevitable?

 

[Getsme]

Because there's only a finite amount of minutes available every year.

True, but why do we have to get rid of Evans for a youth player to get games? If he is good enough he will play no matter who is in front of him. You keep going on about Evans not being good enough yet want to replace him with a youth team player who has it all to prove.
Youth team players break through because they are deemed good enough by the manager, no other reason.

 

[Getsme]

Are you seriously asking this? When Evans makes a full recovery he's probably going to start a few games, but seeing as he's failed to make more than 7 consecutive appearances in the last two years he's probably going to wind up injured again. He'll be back from another lay off, play like shit, you'll make excuses and the cycle will continue. Instead of affording him chance after chance only for him to be disrupted, i'd rather we gave the game time that Evans would other wise get to another player. Simple as that. We're going nowhere with Evans, no progress, zero, zilch! Why delay the inevitable?

Yes I am asking it.
As I said above if the manager thinks a youth team player is good enough he will be promoted to the first team, it doesn't matter what players we move on. You have still failed to answer the question, the truth is, you can't.

 

[ivaldo]

I asked him so I'll ask you as well, where is the irony?

 

[Getsme]

Ah ok.