I agree as admittedly there's always a bit of hindsight involved when calling a player a has been , i usually consider it to be two consecutive seasons of dropped off performances but it obviously isn't perfect.
Joao Felix / on loan to Chelsea
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Love to hear that.
Like you know, I’ve touched on this before, loaning a player without getting a buy option is sometimes seen as something a big club shouldn’t do. ‘We aren’t a farm team’, ‘why should we develop other team’s players’.
But if Felix comes here and is a success — who got the leverage when negotiate a deal in the summer? Can Atleti hold us hostage? No, not if Felix really likes it here, loves ETH and definitely don’t want to go back to Atleti.
Let’s say Felix is very good for us, but not like ‘great’. If we offer 70-75m for him and Atleti wants 100m — what is their option? To bring him back into a really toxic situation with Atleti? Could Arsenal/Chelsea come out of the blue and swoop him up? It doesn’t work like that. We could never have bought Odegard from Real after his loan stint with Arsenal (unless really overpaying), he knew what he was going to get at Arsenal, not here. He wouldn’t want to risk that. And neither of those team would offer 125m for Felix either.
Like sure, if Felix comes here and is our best player, looks like KDB II, then the price goes up. But that won’t happen, he has potential, but he isn’t going to settle in and be a big star from day 1.
So we get him with no obligation to buy in the summer, what happens if he comes here has an absolute worldy and we can’t even buy him anyway. Athletico get a fired up rejuvenated player who is still worth 100million and other clubs are now sure of him because he smashed it at united in the PL.
I get we need a striker/attacker but long term it does nothing for us and everything for Felix and athletico.
I get we need a striker/attacker but long term it does nothing for us and everything for Felix and athletico.
We're in such dire need of a centre-forward that even a ridiculously short term deal is worth it.
But the other side of that equation is what if we get him with an obligation and hes crap?
Ideally we reduce the loan fee and get an option for the summer, but its not the end of the world if we dont.
He cleary wont want to go back to Atletico and if he does well enough here that they think hes worth £100m again then its likely he’ll put his foot down and insist on not going anywhere but here.
It gets us through a tough euros and could see us back in the Champions League. That’s long term enough for the time being.
thats true.. I guess it’s a risk we would have to take.
if We can get him with a option to buy then for me it’s worth the 15mil fee as he has potential to be one of the best, there’s just no way of knowing how he would fare in PL and in our system already having Bruno as no10. Can he cut it as a striker in the PL.. only way we can possibly know is if he comes. It’s just if he can’t be bought at the end of it, it seems pointless and atletico can be very stubborn.
Why don't you think he will settle straight away when that is what we will need to happen if he is going to make an impact in six months and we are paying his huge wages?
Personally I think he will be a good squad option but isnt a long term fit for us or the premier league in general.
I think we should sign him but only on loan and then see how it goes. A £6m fee plus £6m in wages is roughly what we would have paid Ronaldo so thats a fair amount for us to pay for anyone we bring in.
It isn't. Ronaldo is an outlier
I'm really uncomfortable about the absence of a buy clause (assuming atleti won't sell to other Spanish clubs which we can't be sure of anyways) that leaves us competing with every other English club plus some other Continental ones.
The idea of pouring effort into getting a player hit peak form while not even being guaranteed about keeping him is very unappealing.
The idea of pouring effort into getting a player hit peak form while not even being guaranteed about keeping him is very unappealing.
I agree with you on that one
It's quite a win-win. We are not really buying him to develop him. We are buying him to give us squad depth. If he is a success, he will want to continue to be here. It is not just AM's decision. He has to agree as well which club go to.
I mean “fair” in the sense that its money we had already budgeted to spend this season, so it would be “unfair” of the glazers to not allow the club to spend that money.
We could see eye to eye after allI agree with you on that one
I think people are talking about this as if it's a surefire thing, there's absolutely no guarantee that he would want to stay here when there exists the possibility of moving to more appealing cities (London or any of the Italian clubs ) or just a club that will pay him better, not to mention the bidding warfare that will ensue.
We could see eye to eye after all
I think people are talking about this as if it's a surefire thing, there's absolutely no guarantee that he would want to stay here when there exists the possibility of moving to more appealing cities (London or any of the Italian clubs ) or just a club that will pay him better, not to mention the bidding warfare that will ensue.
Joao Felix is talented but in no way is he nor has he ever been prolific. For these scenarios to come true he would have move to a new country and a new league and perform better in 6 months than he has at any point in his career.
Having experienced what its like to end up at the wrong club, how easily do you think he will just give up on a team where he’s enjoyed the most prolific period of his career? Odegaard was in a similar position and he certainly wouldn’t have gone anywhere else.
We’re in a position now where if he is as good as you hope he will be; we will definitely qualify for the top 4, probably at the expense of Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool. We’ll have new (probably Middle Eastern) owners so we’ll have no problem with the fee or wages and we’ll have a largely Portuguese speaking squad that he feels comfortable with and at a club where he has plenty of his countrymen living locally to him (United, City and Liverpools Portuguese players).
In the scenario where he does so well Atletico want to charge £100m and other clubs are willing to pay it - I don’t see how he just dumps all of the above for a paycheque we could also provide.
The other scenario is that he doesnt do that well and we either don’t want him at all or we will take him but for a much lower fee. At which point his performances don’t justify the asking price, we haven’t made the top 4, but for some magical reason another team is willing to outbid us on a player that actively caused us to nose dive from our current position.
There is definitely competition between players in who can get the best deal at a club regarding wages and we are kidding ourselves if we think different.We could see eye to eye after all
I think people are talking about this as if it's a surefire thing, there's absolutely no guarantee that he would want to stay here when there exists the possibility of moving to more appealing cities (London or any of the Italian clubs ) or just a club that will pay him better, not to mention the bidding warfare that will ensue.
Joao Felix not being in the squad today seems very significant. I’m surprised that journalists / social media hasn’t made much of it
Or am I missing something? Was it against the Spanish Charlton?
Or am I missing something? Was it against the Spanish Charlton?
Good stuff in this thread! I agree with everything said. But there is no real scenario that worries me.
1. There is no guarantee that he will like it here, that is true, but if he for example don’t hit it off with ETH — what are the odds that we would want to keep him?
2. I am not worried that he would be out of this world great. I think he got potential, sure he could have like a 4 assist game or whatever, but over the long run he would definitely have his ups and downs. The PL is a tough league, we aren’t dominant, it will take time for him to develop chemistry with all his teammates. I remember Henry’s first season for Arsenal, it’s a long time ago but as far as I recall he was a down right disappointment. Just like he had been in Italy. Sure there are exceptions, but over 5 months I can’t imagine that he will be like Player of the Month or something like that at any point. Player of the week, sure. But not POTM if you get what I mean, requires a different kind of consistency.
3. Look, the atmosphere around the team is really good right now. We will have ups and downs, but we have some great characters on the roster. Even if we tackle off and finish 5-6, there will be optimism about the future. Anyone that comes here and does well will get really appreciated, and anyone that is appreciated by us really loves it.
He won’t want to go to Chelsea or PSG. Solid season here, cautiously optimistic about him being able to take another 2-3 steps to the next level. He would be ours for a fair rate. Atleti needs all the money they can get. They aren’t doing well and must tinker some with that squad. Getting rid of Josi’s wages and getting good return is crucial for them. Do they want to wait to the last day of the summer transfer window?? Nah, I like the position this puts us in.
1. There is no guarantee that he will like it here, that is true, but if he for example don’t hit it off with ETH — what are the odds that we would want to keep him?
2. I am not worried that he would be out of this world great. I think he got potential, sure he could have like a 4 assist game or whatever, but over the long run he would definitely have his ups and downs. The PL is a tough league, we aren’t dominant, it will take time for him to develop chemistry with all his teammates. I remember Henry’s first season for Arsenal, it’s a long time ago but as far as I recall he was a down right disappointment. Just like he had been in Italy. Sure there are exceptions, but over 5 months I can’t imagine that he will be like Player of the Month or something like that at any point. Player of the week, sure. But not POTM if you get what I mean, requires a different kind of consistency.
3. Look, the atmosphere around the team is really good right now. We will have ups and downs, but we have some great characters on the roster. Even if we tackle off and finish 5-6, there will be optimism about the future. Anyone that comes here and does well will get really appreciated, and anyone that is appreciated by us really loves it.
He won’t want to go to Chelsea or PSG. Solid season here, cautiously optimistic about him being able to take another 2-3 steps to the next level. He would be ours for a fair rate. Atleti needs all the money they can get. They aren’t doing well and must tinker some with that squad. Getting rid of Josi’s wages and getting good return is crucial for them. Do they want to wait to the last day of the summer transfer window?? Nah, I like the position this puts us in.
We’ve offered 4, they want 12, split the difference - 8m plus wages, something around that you’d think gets it done. No one else is paying that much for 6 months
because we're short of numbers and options are limited in January
If he’s out of the game despite being available to play and fit to play, then movement is pretty imminent no?
Like within next week imminent? Players absolutely don’t want to lose that match fitness and sharpness so any time out longer than a week or two messes up any good form they had potentially, and he has been in decent form the past six weeks or so with Atletico and Portugal.
Like within next week imminent? Players absolutely don’t want to lose that match fitness and sharpness so any time out longer than a week or two messes up any good form they had potentially, and he has been in decent form the past six weeks or so with Atletico and Portugal.
Very true but like the poster said it still doesn't solve our striker issue until end of the season
Much as I want it I'm certain we can't afford both
It doesn't. Would rather Felix than nothing though. It also gives us a chance to try before you buy. He might not be that suited to the PL, or he might take to it like a duck to water. I expect ETH might try him in the false 9 if we did get him, as well.
Nonsense post. We signed Martinez, Casemiro, Malacia, Eriksen and Antony in the summer. That’s some pretty effective thumb twiddling. And because of that spending, we don’t have unlimited dosh to drop on an exhorbitant loan fee. The club is only ever going to operate within its financial means unless we are bought by a sugar daddy or nation state.
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Definitely agree with that. It’s one or the other. Felix has the quality we need but the demands are too high for a player we have to give back in six months. If we can get Thuram in for 10m and think he has the quality to be an effective rotation option, I’d prefer that. He can be sold in 18mos for twice what we paid for him. Although that should never be the goal, just a fringe benefit. ETH has been pretty clear that he only wants players that he believes can improve the squad. So if he goes for Thuram, I’m all for it.
Regarding Felix, I wouldn’t be opposed to a 15m loan fee if it was applicable to the fee negotiated for a permanent transfer in the summer. But it appears that isn’t an option right now. More to the point I suspect there are doubts that he’d be a good investment at 100m, or whatever the eventual fee would be. I am a big fan of his, his technical qualities are superb, but I do harbour doubts about whether he is worth that sort of money. He’s somewhat goal shy, and for a 100m that doesn’t really work. Could be the system he’s deployed in, and it could be that he’s yet to realise his enormous potential. But doubts persist.
I certainly see the merits in that argument. In my previous post (just above this one), I do express doubts over him, although I hadn’t considered his desire to be here as one of them. Interesting point, although hard to verify.
We would've saved at least 20m on Antony had we not dithered and waited until after we lost our first two games of the season. We were reactive instead of proactive last summer (as always).
If we have enough money for dividends to be paid to out to the Glazers every year then of course we have enough money to spend on a January signing. The club isn't going to be in any sort of financial trouble off the back of 20-40m in transfers spent this month (especially after saving a few mil in Ronaldo's wages). The only reason we're being reluctant to spend money is because the Glazers don't want to sanction funds when they're looking to sell the club in the immediate future.
I think too many are assuming that we would be bringing in Felix to be the "main man" or pouring effort into it. In reality, he's the best option for the next 6 months because A.) We are obviously cash strapped and can't make some big signing in Jan and B.) Felix offers cover for every position in the front 4 with a serious upgrade in technical quality. It's worth getting him even on loan because we are in a great position to win some trophies while pushing for top 4, but that's going to take a huge hit if even just Martial gets hurt, much less Rashford or Bruno. Felix provides cover for all 3 at a time when our other options are an 18 year old youngster in Garnacho, Elanga who's terrible, and Eriksen who is better from deep. We can't rely on Sancho to give us anything given the current conditions; anything he can contribute will basically be a bonus at this point in the year.
Worst case scenario: He's a versatile upgrade on Elanga and plays some nice stuff but doesn't make a huge impact production wise and we return him. Best case, he lights it up playing in an actual attacking side with some fluidity, playing LW/ST/RW/CAM and we pay the big fee to Atletico in the summer anyways since he wants to leave already and we would be the clear preferred destination at that point.
What's the difference with us loaned Henrik Larson in the past? We didn't look into his potentially increased price because he's playing for us.
Why does it matter if Felix ends up more expensive because he's so good with us? That's also the price we have to pay if, for example, Arsenal gets him on loan and he's having a 6 month worldie.
I’ve always rated Felix but my concern is that he comes and he becomes yet another player in the squad who is only at their best playing from the left.
I wouldn’t want to disrupt Rashford’s momentum at this stage or limit Sancho or Garnacho’s development for a 6 month loan.
Is there any chance Felix could become a dynamic, modern number 9 who can link the play but also stretch defences and score goals? That’s the player we need him to be really.
Is it possible he has been so stifled at Atletico and explodes into life in a different environment? I’m not sure.
I wouldn’t want to disrupt Rashford’s momentum at this stage or limit Sancho or Garnacho’s development for a 6 month loan.
Is there any chance Felix could become a dynamic, modern number 9 who can link the play but also stretch defences and score goals? That’s the player we need him to be really.
Is it possible he has been so stifled at Atletico and explodes into life in a different environment? I’m not sure.
Can't really see him becoming a modern number 9 who can do the stuff outlined,ideally we need two different types of attackers but we can't afford
Let us just say we do get him on loan and the loan fee is a middle ground of what Atletico are asking and we are proposing.
Does Felix start in front of Martial in the big games?
Does Felix start in front of Martial in the big games?
I’m not defending the Glazers and nor do I need a lesson on the impact of dividends. That’s a completely separate conversation being used to deflect from you making a blanket statement about us always twiddling our thumbs, which is blatantly not true. As for Antony, I am going to say that you have zero knowledge of the actual inner workings of the club, and that statement is just baseless speculation used to confirm your original hypothesis.
The deal we can put on the table is an option to buy clause at a predetermined fee. Others have thought of this of course, but what can be added to an option clause is a subclause that allows Atleticò to an accept an offer that comes in say 20m over the predetermined fee. So if we’ve agreed to a 100m transfer fee and we‘re so blown away with Felix and no one comes near that with an offer, the boy is ours. But if Real or let’s say Ronaldo’s new Saudi club comes in at 120m or more, he’s theirs. I suppose Felix himself would have to have some say but I’m not sure how to work that out, but it can’t be that difficult. Perhaps Felix could be allowed to refuse a move to a club outside of La Liga and the PL.
I suppose one thing he could do is provide real competition for Bruno in that creative role. Can't we at least get a CF in time for next league game then if we have to negotiate with Atletico until the end of Jan so be it.
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I think Felix would be enough for now, he could play the f9 role and Rashford or Martial could play up front.
Martial, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho, Antony, Garnacho, Felix.
Felix could give every one a good kick and drive.
Martial, Rashford, Bruno, Sancho, Antony, Garnacho, Felix.
Felix could give every one a good kick and drive.
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