Jesse Lingard will have an excellent season | Discuss in his player performance thread

[Rood]

Why would the pass before the assist be any more important than the pass before the pass before the assist?

Either one could have been the more creative pass. But with a key pass or assist you at least know that the pass gave someone the chance to get a shot away

People are actually trying to calculate that kind of thing nowadays: https://statsbomb.com/2018/08/introducing-xgchain-and-xgbuildup/

another interesting article here about the value of the pre-assist when assessing players like Iniesta or Modric:
https://medium.com/football-crunching/beyond-assists-the-modric-pass-fe5ccd50f824

Im not even saying that its something of great value when talking about Lingard as he doesnt seem to even have good stats for that, but its definitely something worth looking at and the general idea is that its too simplistic to only look at goals and assists for these types of player

 

[izec]

I lost any hope for him. I know some will call this hate, but it isnt hate. He is just not good enough. the day he isnt starting for us regularly will be the day we make the next steps forwards. One of the most important positions going forward occupied by a bang average player on the ball is a disgrace. He is holding us back.

 

[KennyBurner]

This might sound a bit silly, but if we had someone like KDB or similar.. Lingard would look so much better, if you watch closely Lingard makes a lot of penetrating runs inbetween oppo back 4, that get completely ignored, if someone actually picked their head up and could find a good weighted pass we'd be in all the time..

Making runs is part of his job description. Him and kdb play the same position so this comment doesn’t really make sense. He needs to replicate kdb and start creating instead hiding from the ball in the form of “running” as you say into space.

 

[RedSky]

Thank god we've got the kids from academy. They bailed us out right?

Seriously, this is exactly what I was expecting. We keep hammering about how good kids are at preseason only for us to rely on the same old players when it truly matters.

That's ultimately down to Ole for not giving them a chance. They have the quality but no opportunities. Instead we persist with players that we know aren't good enough. Pretty frustrating ultimately.

 

[Bestietom]

That's ultimately down to Ole for not giving them a chance. They have the quality but no opportunities. Instead we persist with players that we know aren't good enough. Pretty frustrating ultimately.

Seems Ole is a wee bit scared to give the youngsters a chance yet. Gomes is a confident little guy and he would love the chance to prove himself in the big games. He is Ready.

 

[Santoryo]

So what about the pre pre assist then? We just can't leave those stats out. Those might give a chance to get DeGea on the list

People are actually trying to calculate that kind of thing nowadays: https://statsbomb.com/2018/08/introducing-xgchain-and-xgbuildup/

another interesting article here about the value of the pre-assist when assessing players like Iniesta or Modric:
https://medium.com/football-crunching/beyond-assists-the-modric-pass-fe5ccd50f824

Im not even saying that its something of great value when talking about Lingard as he doesnt seem to even have good stats for that, but its definitely something worth looking at and the general idea is that its too simplistic to only look at goals and assists for these types of player

So if we're gonna take the pre assist stats seriously, and going by the stats you show then it means Lingard is on fire given is already on 3 pre assists while your list have the highest pre assister last season on 7 total.

Signs for Lingard topping the stats this season.

 

[Red00012]

Young and Matic gone from starting 11, Lingard needs to be the next to get the chop, just stick in Fred or Pereira and put Pogba further forward. It’s not rocket science

 

[Bestietom]

Pogba needs to be further forward if we want more goals scored.

 

[GMoore23]

He hides and refuses to make runs on purpose at times so he doesn't have to recieve the ball.

Have noticed this too. Sometimes he seems to avoid running into an attacking space as he probably knows his end product is pathetic.
A couple of times last night he had a chance to burst through for a through ball but instead came short to then complete a 5 ft pass back to midfield.
He's a coward of a footballer.

 

[Axle17]

Lingard reminds me of that kid in school who was always good at every sport but never the best at any one sport.
He can play different positions but not suited to any of them.

 

[Nikelesh Reddy]

Need much much more from Lingard.....

 

[Jacob]

What about pre - pre- assists?

 

[Greck]

Young and Matic gone from starting 11, Lingard needs to be the next to get the chop, just stick in Fred or Pereira and put Pogba further forward. It’s not rocket science

The combined shiteness of those two and Lukaku made it easy to overlook others. He quietly amassed one of the most fruitless runs since Dec 2018 while we were all too busy raining abuses on those 3

 

[devilish]

That's ultimately down to Ole for not giving them a chance. They have the quality but no opportunities. Instead we persist with players that we know aren't good enough. Pretty frustrating ultimately.

You don't simply throw 17-18 year olds into the deep end and expect them to perform especially in a team that is devoid of quality, experience and leadership. Its neither good for us nor good for them. A big chunk of those very few who prospered in similar (but still better conditions) then this ended up knackered in their early 30s as injuries/wear and tear ruined them.

 

[BootsyCollins]

Hopes his season starts soon

 

[romufc]

You don't simply throw 17-18 year olds into the deep end and expect them to perform especially in a team that is devoid of quality, experience and leadership. Its neither good for us nor good for them. A big chunk of those very few who prospered in similar (but still better conditions) then this ended up knackered in their early 30s as injuries/wear and tear ruined them.

Ronaldo, Messi both started at 17.

Ronaldo is 34 and still dominating
Messi is in his 30's and still dominating.

 

[devilish]

Ronaldo, Messi both started at 17.

Ronaldo is 34 and still dominating
Messi is in his 30's and still dominating.

For every Ronaldo and Messi there are tens of Owens, Kluiverts, Rooneys, Ronaldos (fat one), Ronaldinhos and Kakas. Also note that both Ronaldo and Messi played in their early years in a settled top quality side under decent managers.

 

[Kostov]

The combined shiteness of those two and Lukaku made it easy to overlook others. He quietly amassed one of the most fruitless runs since Dec 2018 while we were all too busy raining abuses on those 3

2 of them were better players in their respective positions than Lingard, and he was as shit as Young. Which makes it even more appalling that he is still starting and playing so much.

 

[RedSky]

You don't simply throw 17-18 year olds into the deep end and expect them to perform especially in a team that is devoid of quality, experience and leadership. Its neither good for us nor good for them. A big chunk of those very few who prospered in similar (but still better conditions) then this ended up knackered in their early 30s as injuries/wear and tear ruined them.

You don't have to start them, but bringing on Greenwood for example in the 89th minute while Gomes and Chong don't get look ins is rather poor.

We know exactly what Lingard and Mata can do in the first team and neither is good enough. We should be using our young players before they get frustrated and move elsewhere, which I think is a real possibility with Gomes if i'm honest.

 

[Kostov]

For every Ronaldo and Messi there are tens of Owens, Kluiverts, Rooneys, Ronaldos (fat one), Ronaldinhos and Kakas. Also note that both Ronaldo and Messi played in their early years in a settled top quality side under decent managers.

Christ what a set of players you listed there. If Gomes or any other youngster manages to have a career like anyone from that list, then we've got a fecking player.

 

[romufc]

For every Ronaldo and Messi there are tens of Owens, Kluiverts, Rooneys, Ronaldos (fat one), Ronaldinhos and Kakas. Also note that both Ronaldo and Messi played in their early years in a settled top quality side under decent managers.

The players you named were absolute brilliant players. I wouln't mind Greenwood becoming like anyone mentioned there. Also, he isnt going to play 38 league games, and he will still play U23 games...?

 

[Rood]

So what about the pre pre assist then? We just can't leave those stats out. Those might give a chance to get DeGea on the list


So if we're gonna take the pre assist stats seriously, and going by the stats you show then it means Lingard is on fire given is already on 3 pre assists while your list have the highest pre assister last season on 7 total.

Signs for Lingard topping the stats this season.

Did he get 2 against Chelsea? I cant remember

I was a bit surprised to see that the highest last season was supposedly 7 - not been able to verify if that table was actually correct

 

[Santoryo]

Did he get 2 against Chelsea? I cant remember

I was a bit surprised to see that the highest last season was supposedly 7 - not been able to verify if that table was actually correct

One when he passed Pogba before he sent that long ball to Rashford and the other when Rashford overhit the pass on the counter, Lingard recollected it and passed it to Perreira who then curled in a cross to Martial.

 

[Steven-UK]

Lingard should be nowhere near a United shirt, but who is to blame? Why did Solskjaer wait so long to bring the subs on when it obviously wasn't working for certain players?

That is very worrying moving forward.

 

[Rood]

One when he passed Pogba before he sent that long ball to Rashford and the other when Rashford overhit the pass on the counter, Lingard recollected it and passed it to Perreira who then curled in a cross to Martial.

Interesting so yes he is on 3 'pre-assists' for the season so far in that case - according to that table that's already more than the whole of last season.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Interesting so yes he is on 3 'pre-assists' for the season so far in that case - according to that table that's already more than the whole of last season.

You can't honestly be using that as a defence of his output?

 

[Omahahaha]

I really don't want him to play, but then I realize that the alternatives are also not very exciting.
We really messed up not strengthening AM this summer.

 

[Pace Abuser]

You can't honestly be using that as a defence of his output?

His fans will stop at nothing, no matter how absurd to normal football fans and oppos, to redeem Lingard's place in the first team.

I laughed out loud when I first saw this thread title. What will it take for Lingard to be seen for the fraud he is? I'm guessing being sold to Leeds or Swansea would finally make them see what a turd of a footballer they're backing as Manchester United quality. Even then I imagine we'll have a thread for him, with his religiously devoted fan club crowing about how hard he works.

 

[Van Piorsing]

You can't live forever off the goals from FA Cup and League Cup finals, especially when you're in your prime footballing years and supporters have absolute right to question his ablity and input, especially when he's part of the starting lineup, game after game.

 

[devilish]

You don't have to start them, but bringing on Greenwood for example in the 89th minute while Gomes and Chong don't get look ins is rather poor.

We know exactly what Lingard and Mata can do in the first team and neither is good enough. We should be using our young players before they get frustrated and move elsewhere, which I think is a real possibility with Gomes if i'm honest.

Look mate, if you think I am defending us playing Lingard and Mata then you're mistaken. If it was for me then the likes of Lingard, Mata, Sanchez and co would have been REPLACED long ago. However, its very naive for fans to think that 18-19 year old kids can just step in and take us to a higher level. As said, its neither realistic nor good for the kids themselves to do so. An injury at this point of their career would potentially end them.

That's why I always said we should do things the proper way

a- bring in some top quality players with the right leadership/talent who can provide us with a solid foundation.
b- start giving kids some game time which is slowly increased the older they get.
c- if they are good enough then when they are at the right age and with the right experience then we should get rid of the player ahead of them and give them the job.

That's what Sir Alex did. Instead we're using kids as an excuse for the club not to spend money.

 

[Rood]

You can't honestly be using that as a defence of his output?

Im not even trying to defend him, Ive said myself that he needs to up his output on goals and assists if he wants to be regular starter

however I do also think its too simplistic to just look at those 2 stats which is why I was interested to look at some more modern stats to assess it

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Im not even trying to defend him, Ive said myself that he needs to up his output on goals and assists if he wants to be regular starter

however I do also think its too simplistic to just look at those 2 stats which is why I was interested to look at some more modern stats to assess it

But even if we put any worth into pre assists, they've been 5 yard sideways passes.

Goals and assists genuinely aren't the be all and end all I agree, but I think Lingards lack of output has gone to such an extreme level it is what the focus should be on

In any team , in any division if you had an attacking player going 14 games without a goal or assist they'd be nowhere near the first 11 and the source of huge criticism.

 

[kouroux]

Im not even trying to defend him, Ive said myself that he needs to up his output on goals and assists if he wants to be regular starter

however I do also think its too simplistic to just look at those 2 stats which is why I was interested to look at some more modern stats to assess it

He won't need to up anything because Ole clearly loves him and play him whenever he feels Lingard is playing well according to his demands.
Lingard is a player who isn't asked to score, nor create (not talking about assists only) because otherwise there is no way he would keep starting so much for Ole. Seems like they are happy with him running around and doing next to feck all

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Just shows that he isn't good enough. You cannot go months without end product. It's madness.

 

[Craig Ward]

You don't simply throw 17-18 year olds into the deep end and expect them to perform especially in a team that is devoid of quality, experience and leadership. Its neither good for us nor good for them. A big chunk of those very few who prospered in similar (but still better conditions) then this ended up knackered in their early 30s as injuries/wear and tear ruined them.

But we have the option of doing so.

We could play Gomes/Chong as a #10.

We could also play Periera or Pogba as a #10.

Lingard isn't the ONLY option there, and I understand the frustrations of fans. Lingard has been poor for 5 seasons, yet still gets a starting role. Why? God knows, its not based on his quality return of assists and goals is it?

At least the kids will play with intent and enthusiasm. Lingard is just a waste of a shirt, I genuinely think he makes us worse. He's an atrocious footballer. How can a player deemed worthy of starting as our playmakers best attribute be "running into space"

He is a big issue for us.

Needs to be replaced and given a similar squad status to Jones and Smalling, as in: not in the squad

 

[Rood]

But even if we put any worth into pre assists, they've been 5 yard sideways passes.

Goals and assists genuinely aren't the be all and end all I agree, but I think Lingards lack of output has gone to such an extreme level it is what the focus should be on

In any team , in any division if you had an attacking player going 14 games without a goal or assist they'd be nowhere near the first 11 and the source of huge criticism.

Well an assist can also be a 5 yard sideways pass and if its done at the perfect time and tempo then its still an important part of any goal anyway

I posted the article earlier which talked about the low amount of goals and assists from players like Iniesta and Modric who conversely score highly in the pre-assist charts - to be fair though, they are not usually playing as high up the pitch as Lingard is for us

So yes He does deserve criticism for lack of output, especially when we have seen that he is capable of scoring spectacular goals and has even done it on high profile occasions (cup finals, world cup etc) but as usual some of the criticism goes way overboard

 

[RedSky]

Look mate, if you think I am defending us playing Lingard and Mata then you're mistaken. If it was for me then the likes of Lingard, Mata, Sanchez and co would have been REPLACED long ago. However, its very naive for fans to think that 18-19 year old kids can just step in and take us to a higher level. As said, its neither realistic nor good for the kids themselves to do so. An injury at this point of their career would potentially end them.

That's why I always said we should do things the proper way

a- bring in some top quality players with the right leadership/talent who can provide us with a solid foundation.
b- start giving kids some game time which is slowly increased the older they get.
c- if they are good enough then when they are at the right age and with the right experience then we should get rid of the player ahead of them and give them the job.

That's what Sir Alex did.

I'm not entirely sure thats true. The below are some random academy players:

Wes Brown aged 19 got 1,441mins in all comps
Darren Fletcher aged 19 got 2,299mins in all comps
Jonny Evans aged 19 got 1,427mins in all comps while on loan to Sunderland (who were in the PL)
Danny Welbeck aged 19 got 1,961mins in all comps while on loan to Sunderland (who were in the PL)
Gerard Pique aged 19 got 2,039mins in all comps while on loan to Real Zaragoza (who were in La Liga)
Gisueppe Rossi aged 19 got 1,545mins in all comps while on loan to Parma (who were in Serie A)

Feel free to ask me about any others and i'll check but most of the decent young prospects at the club got a chance either at United or on loan to a top tier team. Seem to recall Cleverely went on loan to Watford aged 19 but they were in the Championship. Either way, the above youth players who were all tipped to be first team players got decent experience at Chong and Gomes' age. We could throw in players like Jones, Smalling, Rooney, Ronnie who were also purchased youth players who got plenty of minutes.

I think the difference between Sir Alex and now is that our top quality youth who weren't going to feature much in the first team were sent out on loan to decent clubs instead rather than being part of the first team squad but never involved in the actual game. Ultimately the fans might be over hyping this batch of youth players when the Management actually think they're not cut out for it. I mean either neither Chong or Gomes can displace Lingard who is so fecking ineffective in the final third then it's a worrying sign. Still early days and perhaps Ole is giving our senior players a chance before they get displaced.

 

[El Zoido]

That’s astonishing. I knew he was bad, but had no idea he was this bad.

 

[Nanotron]

Im a fan of Lingard for his movement and ball retention but its very difficult to argue with those stats for an attacking player

Does anyone know where I can find good stats comparing pre-assists (aka secondary assist) for PL players? Would be interesting to see if Lingard fares better on that measure which is usually overlooked but actually very important

Why stop there, lets dig out the stats for pre pre pre assists.

 

[devilish]

I'm not entirely sure thats true. The below are some random academy players:

Wes Brown aged 19 got 1,441mins in all comps
Darren Fletcher aged 19 got 2,299mins in all comps
Jonny Evans aged 19 got 1,427mins in all comps while on loan to Sunderland (who were in the PL)
Danny Welbeck aged 19 got 1,961mins in all comps while on loan to Sunderland (who were in the PL)
Gerard Pique aged 19 got 2,039mins in all comps while on loan to Real Zaragoza (who were in La Liga)
Gisueppe Rossi aged 19 got 1,545mins in all comps while on loan to Parma (who were in Serie A)

Feel free to ask me about any others and i'll check but most of the decent young prospects at the club got a chance either at United or on loan to a top tier team. Seem to recall Cleverely went on loan to Watford aged 19 but they were in the Championship. Either way, the above youth players who were all tipped to be first team players got decent experience at Chong and Gomes' age. We could throw in players like Jones, Smalling, Rooney, Ronnie who were also purchased youth players who got plenty of minutes.

I think the difference between Sir Alex and now is that our top quality youth who weren't going to feature much in the first team were sent out on loan to decent clubs instead rather than being part of the first team squad but never involved in the actual game. Ultimately the fans might be over hyping this batch of youth players when the Management actually think they're not cut out for it. I mean either neither Chong or Gomes can displace Lingard who is so fecking ineffective in the final third then it's a worrying sign. Still early days and perhaps Ole is giving our senior players a chance before they get displaced.

I was thinking more in terms of the class of 92 tbh. Most of the players you mentioned ended up squad players at best which is hardly what we need at the moment.

Most were sent away on loan to smaller clubs with far less pressure then playing with Manchester United. Fletcher was given bits and pieces of games in a team which was way better then this one. Meanwhile I can't help thinking that Wes was mismanaged, which lead to injuries that kind of ruined his career. Same thing with Jones and Smalling.

We're asking the kids to just go into this team and basically play better then the first teamers. That's not how football works unfortunately. Even if these kids were to do that, then the risk of them picking injuries or suffering wear and tear is too high. Id rather wait for Greenwood to burst into scene next year or the year after only to remain a key player for the club till he's 34 then having to rely on him now only for him to look shit at age 32.

So I stick to what I said. Build the foundations, let the kids grow, give them time and then replace accordingly.

PS: Mismanagement is a cruel word to use which implies that it was all the manager's fault. I don't think its the case. Sometimes manager's hand are forced into taking decisions that are basically brain farts.

Take Wes for example. Wes debuted against Leeds. It was one of those Ronaldesque debuts were you knew, from day 1, that the boy is special. I mean, he literally humiliated jimmy floyd hasselbaink so much that the guy ended up seeing red. Then United sold of Stam to 'give him space'. At the time I thought it was far too early to do so. Turned out I was right as Wes started picking injuries. Guess what, years passed, and it turned out it wasn't Sir Alex's idea either. Stam basically said that the real reason why he was sold was because the club wanted cash and basically told Sir Alex to pick a top dog for them to sell. Which means it wasn't Sir Alex fault.

Things are indirectly similar with Rooney, Jones and Smalling. The club was forced to fork big money to sign them up. Because of those fees, we were forced to play them quite regularly. What was the result of that? In Jones/Smalling case it translated in injuries at the early stage of their career, which in turn hindered their development. Rooney's story was different. He was lucky to avoid that but years of playing in the EPL meant that he was finished by the time he hit 31. Ronaldo who was always wiser then the rest, knew that the only way he could protect his career, was to leave the physically demanding EPL. In fact he gradually moved to a less physically demanding league, first from the EPL to La Liga and then to the Serie A.