Jeff Buckley

[moses]

Don't agree with a lot of that but it's a cracking argument!

Agree that he was no great shakes as a song-writer and I doubt he was gonna churn out a whole load of brilliant albums. But that album stands on it's own two feet as one of THE great albums. Sure it's derivative (isn't all music?), sure the best song is a cover and sure the myth of the man has caused it to become incredibly mainstream - which somehow cheapens it as a result. But, at the end of the day, it's a collection of beautiful tunes that are fantastically sung, well-produced and - for it's time - more or less unique.

Yep, I hear you, we could go round and round about what makes a great album, and on many levels this is one, if only because so many people feel it is.

It's hard to explain why I don't rate the album without sounding like a complete knob but it's pretty close to what I said above. But I just feel a great album shouldn't need a famous dad, should have better songs and shouldn't hang on a cover version as it's cornerstone (even if it is one of the best covers ever).

His great 'talent' being a loss irks me, I feel he shot his load with Grace, unlike Nick Drake who was far more than a good voice, or Elliot Smith.

I just like the idea that I've never convinced anyone that I'm right. And I also don't understand why it's frequently the sole musical divergence I have with lots of people - especially when you take into account how right I am!

 

[moses]

.

Maybe, on this one occasion, the combination of 90s nous and the artistic purity of the 60s just worked, by combining the best bits of each!

did you add this ?

My point is it always works if what you want is superficial? But the most obvious thing is that I don't get what a lot of people do and I suppose my argument is that it's not there to get - the emperors new clothes if you like?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Yep, I hear you, we could go round and round about what makes a great album, and on many levels this is one, if only because so many people feel it is.

It's hard to explain why I don't rate the album without sounding like a complete knob but it's pretty close to what I said above. But I just feel a great album shouldn't need a famous dad, should have better songs and shouldn't hang on a cover version as it's cornerstone (even if it is one of the best covers ever).

His great 'talent' being a loss irks me, I feel he shot his load with Grace, unlike Nick Drake who was far more than a good voice, or Elliot Smith.

I just like the idea that I've never convinced anyone that I'm right. And I also don't understand why it's frequently the sole musical divergence I have with lots of people - especially when you take into account how right I am!

Aha, now we've found some common ground. Big fan of Nick Drake and (to a lesser extent) Elliot Smith and I agree that these guys were much better song-writers than Buckley so, in terms of the quality and quantity of potential music denied to us fans, they're probably a bigger loss.

There's something about the whole Jeff Buckley/Grace mythology that is kind of perfect though. This young, beautiful and talented musician produces one great (or at least, very very good) album - heavily influenced by his old man, another star that burned too bright - then he dies before anyone has a chance to see his flaws.

It's corny as hell. But in a good way.

I can see why it rubs a bitter, misanthropic fecker like you up the wrong way though!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

did you add this ?

My point is it always works if what you want is superficial? But the most obvious thing is that I don't get what a lot of people do and I suppose my argument is that it's not there to get - the emperors new clothes if you like?

Yeah, sorry, I'm always editing the hell out of my posts.

It's the curse of being obsessive and indecisive.

 

[moses]

Aha, now we've found some common ground. Big fan of Nick Drake and (to a lesser extent) Elliot Smith and I agree that these guys were much better song-writers than Buckley so, in terms of the quality and quantity of potential music denied to us fans, they're probably a bigger loss.

There's something about the whole Jeff Buckley/Grace mythology that is kind of perfect though. This young, beautiful and talented musician produces one great (or at least, very very good) album - heavily influenced by his old man, another star that burned too bright - then he dies before anyone has a chance to see his flaws.

It's corny as hell. But in a good way.

I can see why it rubs a bitter, misanthropic fecker like you up the wrong way though!

yep, maybe it just makes too many people feel warm ... the cnuts.

It should be an album I love, I just don't. I'd rather the Jeff Buckley records be taken from my collection way before, his pop, Tim Hardin, the aformentioned two and many more of that genre ... I even think Ray Lamontagne has more talent.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

yep, maybe it just makes too many people feel warm ... the cnuts.

It should be an album I love, I just don't. I'd rather the Jeff Buckley records be taken from my collection way before, his pop, Tim Hardin, the aformentioned two and many more of that genre ... I even think Ray Lamontagne has more talent.

And there's an excellent note to end this chat. I've got myself a couple of tickets to see him, next February. His latest album is taking a while to grow on me but - purely in terms of the song-writing - I would rate Trouble as one of the best albums this last decade. Lovely stuff.

Although that "even" does make me wonder if you're not quite as keen on him as I am!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

P.S. Pops recently got me into Bon Iver. Skinny Love is an absolute cracker of a tune. I'm guessing you've already heard of him - being a muso an' all - but if not, check it out.

 

[Spammy]

Did I rain on your little love in? That's a lot of indignation from someone who doesn't have his best album.

I'm willing to discuss it. There's no denying he has a great voice, but so do the cnuts form x-factor. As far as songwriting is concerned he doesn't even make a blip on the radar.

feck off!

Songwriting wise I agree (well maybe not fully), but he's still got fantastic talent with a guitar and his voice is fecking brilliant.

 

[Eyepopper]

And there's an excellent note to end this chat. I've got myself a couple of tickets to see him, next February. His latest album is taking a while to grow on me but - purely in terms of the song-writing - I would rate Trouble as one of the best albums this last decade. Lovely stuff.

Although that "even" does make me wonder if you're not quite as keen on him as I am!

I'd agree with that, Trouble is a fantastic album.

 

[moses]

P.S. Pops recently got me into Bon Iver. Skinny Love is an absolute cracker of a tune. I'm guessing you've already heard of him - being a muso an' all - but if not, check it out.

Yep, great stuff. Big fan. For Emma is amazing.

Enjoy the show, Ray's second album doesn't have the impact of Trouble, but a year or so on I'm starting to think it might be better.


and Spammy I know I was pushing it a bit there!

Gnight caffers.

 

[moses]

I'd agree with that, Trouble is a fantastic album.

Ah, consenus! The production is fantastic. Blew me away when I heard it first.

 

[Youngie]

Hate to be the bringer of bad news but I have it on very good authority that this years eventual X-Factor winner will be covering "Hallelujah" as the Christmas Single......Imagine that little pug-faced runt murdering such a classic!!!
Chainsaws at the ready.

 

[Virtuoso]

Jeff Buckley is one of my favourite music artists ever. I have accumalated a lot of his back-catalogue; both solo albums, live CDs, DVDs and read "Dream Brother" (which is divided between him and his father who died in similar circumstances to him and was also a very talented solo artist). It is a travesty that he died so young but that also means that the level of mystique never diminished and he has left the music scene as a cult legend and mythical figure. For me at least, he was a surreal talent: incredibly emotive voice, fantastic range in his lyrics and a seemingly endless amount of skill with a guitar.

P.S. Pops recently got me into Bon Iver. Skinny Love is an absolute cracker of a tune. I'm guessing you've already heard of him - being a muso an' all - but if not, check it out.

I bought the Bon Iver album recently too, just started getting into his music.

 

[Melbourne Red]

Does Jeff Buckley really need to be introduced?

He's not exactly the sort of obscure indie artist whose records you pull out of the bottom of a dusty bargain bin.

 

[Christofaux]

His CD gets re-released and re-released and re-released beyond comprehension...

 

[Jopub]

Interesting thread

Buckley is gifted but imo more for his vocals , instrumental ability than his songwriting

He did write good stuff but on repeated hearing it's not of lasting quality imo

His 'Hallelujah' is of course a miracle fusion of controlled vocal emotion and beautifully understudied guitar playing - I never tire of hearing that or playing it on guitar - use to play my two kids to sleep with that tune (quite a simple tune really) ...brings tears to my eyes now - wonderful

Grace is a quality album but as music is about opinion I'm not sure its a great album when stood alongside more recognised 'great' albums

...... From what I've read he was a troubled soul a terrible musical loss to us all. RIP Jeff

 

[pillory]

I'm no expert but I don't know many (any?) other singers out there who can convey so much emotion and make such great use of their vocal range, without irritating R&B gymnastics.

I actually think the way he uses his voice can be quite annoying. Hallelujah happens to be a good example, he crams too much "emotion" into it. You know, all that trembling of voice. For starters, it doesn't sound like genuine emotion,* it sounds like what happens after a professorish-looking piece of metal has said "I shall now proceed to demonstrate some techniques used by humanoids to express various emotional states".

And neither emotion nor "emotion" suits the lyrics, which are the words of a world-weary, brainy cynic. There is of course a fair bit of passion in them, but it's a passion the speaker has lost and is trying to remember. Cohen's own cool delivery is much more appropriate. (Also because the lyrics are so brilliant it all gets somewhat absurd if the singer sounds like he's feeling rather than thinking.)**

For peer review purposes, here are some examples of what I consider bollock-gripping singing. (Why on earth isn't Tired Eyes on YouTube?)


* I generally detest the notion that music (or anything) has to be "genuine" in order to be good, so I'm not quite sure what I'm up to here.
** I actually think Buckley's version is very nice, just not fantastic.

 

[Laphroaig]

what

Sandy Denny is brilliant, or rather was, but I'd say this version is even better. (Not only better lyrics, but a better version overall, not least the lyrics.)

 

[Jopub]

I actually think the way he uses his voice can be quite annoying. Hallelujah happens to be a good example, he crams too much "emotion" into it. You know, all that trembling of voice. For starters, it doesn't sound like genuine emotion,* it sounds like what happens after a professorish-looking piece of metal has said "I shall now proceed to demonstrate some techniques used by humanoids to express various emotional states".

And neither emotion nor "emotion" suits the lyrics, which are the words of a world-weary, brainy cynic. There is of course a fair bit of passion in them, but it's a passion the speaker has lost and is trying to remember. Cohen's own cool delivery is much more appropriate. (Also because the lyrics are so brilliant it all gets somewhat absurd if the singer sounds like he's feeling rather than thinking.)**

For peer review purposes, here are some examples of what I consider bollock-gripping singing. (Why on earth isn't Tired Eyes on YouTube?)


* I generally detest the notion that music (or anything) has to be "genuine" in order to be good, so I'm not quite sure what I'm up to here.
** I actually think Buckley's version is very nice, just not fantastic.

Mmm

srry but the vocal control on that take of Hallelujah is awesome altho you're right here and there he does 'lose' it but that only adds to the effect of it imo

Also agree about the lyrical content and Cohen's much more low key original

However music, for me anyway, is ultimately about being 'moved' by a song or performance of one and in that respect Buckley is head and shoulders superior to the original.

I've listened to the examples you've given and frankly to my ear there is nothing memorable about any of them. Are you winding us up?

Another thing about Buckleys vocals on Hallelujah is the actual sweet sound he exudes , you're born with that, you cannot cultivate it and that is more bollock gripping than any of that stuff you've put up. Imo of course

 

[Laphroaig]

srry but the vocal control on that take of Hallelujah is awesome altho you're right here and there he does 'lose' it but that only adds to the effect of it imo

Is that supposed to be a reply to what you quoted? Can't really see a relation there.

I've listened to the examples you've given and frankly to my ear there is nothing memorable about any of them. Are you winding us up?

Chan Marshall (Cat Power) is a superb singer, there's nothing to doubt about that although she's lost the plot a bit lately. Sandy Denny (Fairport Convention) is widely acknowledged as one of the great British vocalists.

Pillory seems to equate emotions with having someone grab his balls though, and that is a bit peculiar, and may well cause some confusion.

 

[pillory]

I've listened to the examples you've given and frankly to my ear there is nothing memorable about any of them. Are you winding us up?

Some of them were intended to illustrate that my tastes/opinions aren't necessarily of any consequence to a Jeff Buckley fan, but Sandy Denny and Diamanda Galas (and in fact almost all of them) are regarded as exceptional singers by everyone who knows what they're talking about, Vashti Bunyan has the sweetest voice in the history of music, and Neil Young's groans on Tired Eyes amount to the most moving vocal performance ever.

 

[pillory]

Pillory seems to equate emotions with having someone grab his balls though, and that is a bit peculiar, and may well cause some confusion.

If was referring to the bollocks of God, not my own.

 

[sidsutton]

Buckley's is the definitive version.

is it feck

 

[Cornell]

In my top 3 favourite artists ever. Grace was brilliant, one the best albums i've heard. Buckley admitted in interviews he hadn't got the whole writing lyrics/songs thing before he died. I think it's on youtube if anyone wants to watch it. I couldn't care less if they're not well written, they're bloody brilliant.

Sketches for My Sweetheart the Drunk was also absolute quality considering it was unfinished. Opened Once is 3 minutes of perfection. And to whoever reccomend Live @ Sin-e, I agree. One of the simplest but best live albums ever recorded.

Could crap on about this mans genius all night.

 

[SmashedHombre]

Finally

I like the Buckley version better anyway. Cohen's voice is too deep for my liking..

John Cale's is the best version in my honest and humble opinion.

 

[spinoza]

Grace has a fantastic cover version, arguably the definitive version, of a great song. And Jeff was pretty. Without those two facts Grace would be as obscure as it deserves to be. His father was a bit better, if only for 'Buzzin Fly'. I know I'm going against the grain here, but I won't bow to being outnumbered, Celine Dion after all has sold nearly 200 million albums .

I agree.

His version of Hallelujah is incredible.

Everything else - good and listenable, but that's it.

 

[Wibble]

I thought he was great but you do wonder if his legend has been significantly enhanced by his early death.

 

[Rood]

I thought he was great but you do wonder if his legend has been significantly enhanced by his early death.

Almost definitely it has

 

[Spammy]

is it feck

feck it is.

 

[moses]

I actually think the way he uses his voice can be quite annoying. Hallelujah happens to be a good example, he crams too much "emotion" into it. You know, all that trembling of voice. For starters, it doesn't sound like genuine emotion,* it sounds like what happens after a professorish-looking piece of metal has said "I shall now proceed to demonstrate some techniques used by humanoids to express various emotional states".

And neither emotion nor "emotion" suits the lyrics, which are the words of a world-weary, brainy cynic. There is of course a fair bit of passion in them, but it's a passion the speaker has lost and is trying to remember. Cohen's own cool delivery is much more appropriate. (Also because the lyrics are so brilliant it all gets somewhat absurd if the singer sounds like he's feeling rather than thinking.)**

I agree, nail on the head ... back to style over substance.

 

[spinoza]

I actually think the way he uses his voice can be quite annoying. Hallelujah happens to be a good example, he crams too much "emotion" into it. You know, all that trembling of voice. For starters, it doesn't sound like genuine emotion,* it sounds like what happens after a professorish-looking piece of metal has said "I shall now proceed to demonstrate some techniques used by humanoids to express various emotional states".

And neither emotion nor "emotion" suits the lyrics, which are the words of a world-weary, brainy cynic. There is of course a fair bit of passion in them, but it's a passion the speaker has lost and is trying to remember. Cohen's own cool delivery is much more appropriate. (Also because the lyrics are so brilliant it all gets somewhat absurd if the singer sounds like he's feeling rather than thinking.)**
[/SIZE]

hmm

I think the emotion in the delivery changes the meaning of the lyrics. Into what I'm not sure (pain, exhaustion, sadness, nostalgia spring to mind), but it's like Gary Jules' version of Mad World, whole new different take on the song.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I actually think the way he uses his voice can be quite annoying. Hallelujah happens to be a good example, he crams too much "emotion" into it. You know, all that trembling of voice. For starters, it doesn't sound like genuine emotion,* it sounds like what happens after a professorish-looking piece of metal has said "I shall now proceed to demonstrate some techniques used by humanoids to express various emotional states".

And neither emotion nor "emotion" suits the lyrics, which are the words of a world-weary, brainy cynic. There is of course a fair bit of passion in them, but it's a passion the speaker has lost and is trying to remember. Cohen's own cool delivery is much more appropriate. (Also because the lyrics are so brilliant it all gets somewhat absurd if the singer sounds like he's feeling rather than thinking.)**

See, I pretty much object to all of this on principle. I'm probably being a massive hypocrite by saying this after pontificating at length in this thread but I hate it when people are too analytical about music. You hear a tune, you like the sound of it, the lyrics make a little bit of sense to you and that should be it. Music should never be broken down like some kind of mathematical formula, IMO.

I don't really care if there's some sort of discrepancy between the lyrics and the style in which the song is sung and I certainly don't care if he may or may not be being too emotional. It sounds great, it's a great song, it's sung brilliantly and, the first time I heard it, it moved me. That's good enough for me.

 

[pillory]

I hate it when people are too analytical about music.

But it's fun!

Having said that, I should stress that my opinion on Buckley and Hallelujah isn't a result of analysis, it's the other way around. I've always felt there's something not quite right about Buckley's voice and his Hallelujah, and the above analysis is an attempt to figure out what.

(I'm sick of typing 'analysis' now. It makes me feel like a pompous git.)

 

[sammymc]

the only two songs of his I like are covers....hallelujah and Night Flight...everything is i can do without...especially the actual song Grace...feck me its woeful....caterwauling cnut.

 

[moses]

See, I pretty much object to all of this on principle. I'm probably being a massive hypocrite by saying this after pontificating at length in this thread but I hate it when people are too analytical about music. You hear a tune, you like the sound of it, the lyrics make a little bit of sense to you and that should be it. Music should never be broken down like some kind of mathematical formula, IMO.

I don't really care if there's some sort of discrepancy between the lyrics and the style in which the song is sung and I certainly don't care if he may or may not be being too emotional. It sounds great, it's a great song, it's sung brilliantly and, the first time I heard it, it moved me. That's good enough for me.

But people with complex opinion on music often don't spend hours listening to it, they might get it all from the first hearing, the way you did. It's like anything, some people look at a painting and like the image, they don't see the style, the influences, the fine detail in technique or ornamentation. Like the way people can tell a fake Monet, others can hear music in a lot of detail. But you are right, if you like it you like it, lots of people say this about visual art. Same thing.

Lot's of people don't give a shit about Phil Spector and his wall of sound, or the reactionary nature of John Wesley Harding, or the influence of Sgt peppers on Pet Sounds, or why it's even relevant. Or Dylans myriad producers and the effect they had on each other. Some people will sit and analyse things to death but to some it's more complex than just liking or not liking because it just is more complex than liking or not liking ... I have lots of records that are genius on some level but I don't necessarily 'like' them the way you like 'Grace' for example. I have lots of German prog rock from the late 60's and early 70's , some of it is unlistenable and some of it is out of this world fanatastic. Why I have these records is because they influenced artists like Bowie, Lou Reed and Iggy and I wanted to find out why they gravitated to Berlin; and it's an amazing story with amazing sounds and all done in a very German manner, completely at odds with the way musical scenes developed in places like the US and the UK, movements which had, to some degree, their origins in this Krautrock.

It's like football to you and a lot of heads on here, you watch a game and see it simply and you analyse it according to your opinions and what you know, all without thinking too much, but because of what you know it's simple to you , but not so for someone who doesn't understand the game. To use a cliche - like explaining offside to a woman.

And it is difficult to say this without sounding like a know all cnut, especially about music because almost everyone likes muisc to some degree and get offended. But music is like every cultural thing, it has many guises , from the primal , through traditional to the arty high brow wank. I love all of it. High Fidelity was a documentary for me.

 

[Steev]

Hate to be the bringer of bad news but I have it on very good authority that this years eventual X-Factor winner will be covering "Hallelujah" as the Christmas Single......Imagine that little pug-faced runt murdering such a classic!!!
Chainsaws at the ready.

But they don't really care for music, do they?

 

[samabachan]

Is that supposed to be a reply to what you quoted? Can't really see a relation there.


Chan Marshall (Cat Power) is a superb singer, there's nothing to doubt about that although she's lost the plot a bit lately. Sandy Denny (Fairport Convention) is widely acknowledged as one of the great British vocalists.

Pillory seems to equate emotions with having someone grab his balls though, and that is a bit peculiar, and may well cause some confusion.

Cat Power can sing yes but she never tries to sing like a normal human being, she warbles on in the strangest fashion before briefly showing some actual ability and then striking a strange pose and stopping singing again. Awful to listen to IMO.

 

[Eyepopper]

See, I pretty much object to all of this on principle. I'm probably being a massive hypocrite by saying this after pontificating at length in this thread but I hate it when people are too analytical about music. You hear a tune, you like the sound of it, the lyrics make a little bit of sense to you and that should be it. Music should never be broken down like some kind of mathematical formula, IMO.

Bang on...

Incidentally... almost every songwriter I know (and I know a LOT) of songwriters list Jeff Buckley as a massive influence...

 

[Jopub]

........... There's no denying he has a great voice, but so do the cnuts form x-factor.

As far as songwriting is concerned he doesn't even make a blip on the radar.

kinell 'X factor great voices' - you need to get those ears of yours sorted out mate

Agree about the writing though JB was good but 'great' is another thing entirely

Same argument about footballers really - there's the often 'great' footballer who upon deliberation is actually very good, but no more.

 

[moses]

Bang on...

Incidentally... almost every songwriter I know (and I know a LOT) of songwriters list Jeff Buckley as a massive influence...

Have any of them written any decent songs because I don't think Jeff has?


But seriously that is getting technical, if his songwriting influences people then it must be scientific, as it's a process of sorts , very few songwriters I know work in a stream of consciousness manner ... some of the trad musicians I know do but that's entirely different). How does he influence them in terms of songwriting? I can understand if he inspires people to write songs or pick up a guitar but what is it in his songwriting specifically that is influential? I just don't see he has given anything at all unique or influential to the art of songwriting. I see the Smiths as influential becasue they brought something new to the table, as Pogue said earlier Buckley is quite derivative.

I'm genuinely asking because although I'm surrounded by musos all day every day and can play a bit I've never written a song; but I do know and have worked with some really amazing songwriters, some who make a living and some who try... and they always quote more technical songwriter as their influences.

Damien Dempsey's 'Factories' is sheer poetry and you get the idea it was hewn from rock , worked on, moulded until perfect. And it gets stronger with every listen. I feel Jeff Buckley could do a Boyzone cover in that breathy fashion and it would sound great but still not be a good song.

Whatever about the merits of Grace, I really don't think Buckley was a good songsmith.