That’s because they’ve played for other teams to be good for them. Sancho might of done very well at Salzburg and Molde. He jumped into a club that was a mess and has no structure… it’s very hard for any player to thrive for us at the minute…. We’ve got no clear plan or style of play like them teams you’ve just mentioned. We’ve gone from Ole to ETH so 2 different complete managers who see football differently, that wouldn’t have helped him either.
Jadon Sancho (Out)
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I've not seen anything pertaining to his preference in recent media, so I'm just going off the fact that Sancho is only getting top dollar in one place, Al Hilal have a need in his position, and the player would probably be swayed by the prospect of playing with a player he idolises.
Quite a conflation in your post between effort and the kind of football being played. Southgate is a poor coach who has been given a golden generation of talent, which is damning in itself because this is the period of time where England have a genuine chance at both the European and World Cup.
Southgate does not play technical nor complex football; no bedazzling systems or patterns of play or intricacy. He’s always going to opt for the best vertical players; athletes with varying degrees of ability. Kane breaks that rule, but for the remainder it’ll be athletes over technicians, or at the very least, technicians dropped well before the athletic players. Sancho isn’t the only fall guy, but he is the most affected, being the least athletic of the lot.
The conditions Sancho needs don’t rely upon where he starts out, but how many players he has to play off who are comfortable playing combination football and pass and move stuff to the highest degree. That’s Sancho’s wheelhouse and where he has few peers. He has dependencies in that he needs to be in proximity of good, technical players, but under that proviso, the golden boy status he always had will be on display as this is where others cannot keep up with him.
Putting it another way, one technical player (who isn't an elite athlete) amongst those who struggle to play that rapid one and two touch football, is going to be found wanting; two technical (but not particularly elite athletes) players bouncing passes between themselves and constantly re-working position and new angles for themselves becomes a big problem; three or four of them, and you have a plague that is giving teams fits because they cannot track the movement or keep up with the progression of the ball. In this manner, Sancho is essentially a Spaniard in an English body and kit, but that's not to say England couldn't play that way under an able coach, after all, Sancho, Foden and Grealish (now) are honed from the same school of coaching and principles and certainly the former two can ping passes between themselves blindfolded. Sancho's template is not now - it was formed years ago, when he was taking the Youth World Cup by storm and earning countless plaudits on his way up to becoming a pro, and carrying straight over into professional football. All football of a similar brand, and yes, he is more bound to teammates than those solo players who don't need particular conditions to thrive. Literally all of that should be basic stuff for any suitor to know and cater for or not pursue him.
The disconnect with a lot of United fans and the player came from him not being some Best/Giggs/Ronaldo flying, maverick winger who could take on wave after wave of opponents by himself and then burst into dangerous passing or shooting positions with nobody else in sight. Sancho was never that player. In fact, I thought we'd be changing the way we play to cater to Sancho's game, or better to say, facilitate it and get ourselves playing a more modern brand of football. what's ended up happening more often than not is us isolating him and taking away the very things he's made his name off of. It's not just Sancho that has been compromised by that, btw. Antony has some of the same issues, and we should have been looking at flying wingers if we wanted... flying wingers, and that's on whoever made the assessment before purchase to ascertain - you don't just blindly buy such expensive players and have no clue how to use them.
But that's all on the pitch. That thing about wanting it and appetite for the game, yeah, I dunno about him and that. Being a bit tardy and unprofessional is one thing, but major insubordination, I wouldn't have known he has that in him, and that has been disappointing, as has his desire to give everything, but I still think that's a case of a golden boy being a bit shell-shocked and probably having to go back and work on himself in the face of adversity he's never known before as a player.
Would like to end by saying these are not 'excuses' rather, the player as I've perceived him ever since setting eyes on him. He hasn't changed as a footballer - his YWC games are accessible and it's the same player as he was at Dortmund. How we didn't know what we were buying kind of blows my mind, or probably better to say, disappoints even further as we seem to be experts at missing the mark when it comes to player recruitment.
I think that is some revisionist history. 17 goals and 17 assists in the 32 Bundesliga games in 19/20. He was outstanding at Dortmund, so very much a signing that the manager and most fans wanted.
The fee was probably justified, but the salary we gave him was crazy.
Talent level is all there. But his character is severally lacking. We signed some low character individuals.
Rio did an interview with Ange Postecoglou last week. Rio is always talking about signing the right characters. Ange said that most players are all pretty similar from a talent perspective, but its all about signing those with the right attitude and character....
Molde and Salzburg aren't really the point, as they're relatively shit, in relatively shit leagues.
You have a point about the club being a mess. However, if he was remotely arsed, we should have still seen something from a player of Sancho's supposed calibre. The same is true for his England performances.
Even Martial has managed to look brilliant at times.
I agree with Ange on that. In terms of talent we should have one of the strongest 11s in the league comfortably, but character and attitude? No chance.
I may have been a bit glib in my first response. I accept there are systems that suit every player better than others. I maintain that top class players bring basics to every situation. This could be/ have been his one chance at a nominally top tier club and you have to grasp those opportunities regardless of the imperfection of the tactical system. In no way has he done that. The premise that character is an outdated concept, not something necessarily claimed by yourself but implied in many conversations on this area, is a ludicrous one. Who is he? Has he shown us who he is? Not in any positive way. Allow him the fact that we haven't played to his strengths. What has he shown us?
Really good analysis.
Thanks to @eire-red @Mylock @Kingslayer18 @Isotope @Murder on Zidane's Floor @Ali Dia @Wing Attack Plan R @BenitoSTARR @Ludens the Red and @Baxquux for their compliments and responses to my post.
Hypothetically he could play as a 10, with Bellingham as an all-purpose 8 (though Sancho would need to earn that chance, ideally by playing as a 10 for a run of games elsewhere). I can't but help think he would need a Guardiola - someone able to iron out issues in his game and someone who Sancho would have to respect - to truly get his career back on track, rather than at (second) best moving to a slightly slower league and being a decent to good wide forward.
Mark Goldbridge reckons Ratcliffe has told the club to end the ETH vs Sancho dispute and he could be staying. What are his sources for this? He's claiming it's come from a number of outlets.
The mirror reported it
The mirror reported it
Fair enough, though I think there could be more mileage to this one and it will be interesting to see how Ratcliffe and his football guys approach it. Don't think it will be as simple as him being loaned or sold - we simply can't loan him as it makes a laughable situation look even worse. And he won't agree to join the Saudi or another shit league.
Ratcliffe can't come in and undermine the manager.
Sancho's showed absolutely nothing in his time here. Shit performances, shit attitude. Get rid.
Sancho's showed absolutely nothing in his time here. Shit performances, shit attitude. Get rid.
Exactly this, we aren't talking about a rift with say Bruno or Rashford, it is a disappointing Sancho who seems £75M or so largely wasted and he is stinking up the place. There are flops like DVDB who are nowhere near good enough bit at least are not doing what he did... the one thing he learned from his spell with CR7 was this
Even though his performances for United were much worse than what we were used to, it was obvious that he has great technique, is excellent in small spaces and has brillant linkup play. If you didn't see that, you probably simply don't have an eye for such things.
Anyway, it is a stupid to only judge him based on his performances for United as most players drop several levels when joining this team. This whole line of argument builds on the Bundesliga being so far worse than the EPL that a player who set records in terms of goal contributions both in total as well as per 90 isn't even good enough to cut it at a top 6 team in England. And while it might be fun as a United fan to shit on the Bundesliga, if you use your brain for one second then it is completely obvious that this reasoning is totally illogical. The teams you aspire to be built their success on Bundesliga talent, the reigning triple winner had three former Dortmund players in their starting eleven who all perform better in the EPL than in the BL. So if Sancho was an elite dribbler, an elite passer, an elite finisher in the Bundesliga, he should still do relatively well in the EPL. Maybe not 17/17 in 2500 minutes kind of well, but still much better. And I'm absolutely sure he would confirm his Dortmund form in the EPL as well if he hadn't made such a terrible career decision in joining Manchester United.
I mean, let's be real: Most people just shit on the Bundesliga because it makes them feel better about the depressing state United is in. But if it makes you feel better, just stick with it
it makes absolute sense to judge him on his performances for United as those are the only performances that matter for United fans. His form in the Bundesliga doesn't help us in the here and now and were 2 and half years ago. Whether the Bundesliga is weaker, the same level or stronger than the premier league doesn't matter, as all that matters is Sancho's performances for united within the premier league. Whilst he may have been an "elite" dribbler etc in the bundesliga, its evident as day that he is not that in the Prem. He has shown nothing in his time at united to show that he is an elite player, let alone a player deserving of starting for this United team which is far from the strongest it has ever been.
Regarding the Bundesliga vs Prem debate, its quite clear the Prem is stronger, but even putting that aside its clear the Prem has different characteristics. It is quicker, players are more powerful and stronger, tactically the teams are more astute and so whilst Sancho was able to look like an elite dribbler, passer etc in the Bundesliga and champs league, he has not been able to do so in the prem. He won't be the first Bundesliga player to not cut it in the prem and won't be the last. He may be a elite Bundesliga player but is far from an elite Premier league player.
When he signed, I was a bit surprised to see us getting a cut price.
Now that price seems to have been way over the top and Dortmund ripped us off yet again.
Him taking it all personally even when we’ve been patient with him on and off the field really shows how immature he is - the ultimate waste of talent.
Now that price seems to have been way over the top and Dortmund ripped us off yet again.
Him taking it all personally even when we’ve been patient with him on and off the field really shows how immature he is - the ultimate waste of talent.
That doesn't make sense. You make it sound as if football in the EPL is a different sport but it isn't. City is playing completely different to what is generally associated with English football and they are dominating the league almost at will.
And yes, it absolutely does matter what Sancho did before his United days as you should wonder why the hell he doesn't perform like that for you. The idea that it is because of the league is absolutely ridiculous and in all honesty so stupid that it is hard to take seriously.
Kennington rather than Kensington surely? He knows all the Harlem Spartans gang members from SE11 like Loski etc.
All true. But @Zehner has a point that he looks far worse in the PL than he should based on his Dortmund performances, and he isn't the only player who experienced this after his move to United. So while I absolutely agree that he has to be judged on his performances for United I still think it's a valid question why he is just so disappointingly bad.
If we would only discuss his level of talent here I probably would even agree on the league argument, but we are talking about a player who was a leading figure for Dortmund, not just a talented player. And this aspect is totally gone and can't be explained by playing in a different league, instead it feels like part of the reason why he performs so bad.
And to be clear I don't want to defend or excuse him with this, I just want to criticise his character instead of his talent which I still believe he has.
Haha Kennington I had meant to say.
Kensington definitely not as impressive for street football.
Good chance Ratcliffe doesn't want ETH here for the long term. It makes even less sense to get rid of a player due to a disagreement with the manager, only to then get rid of the manager after and no longer have the player.
Given the clear flaws in his character, I think the move itself, the fee involved, and the daft wage we gave him probably played a huge part.
Nothing left to work for because no club is ever going to pay more for him or give him more money, so what's the point?
No matter who the manager is the player is burning money. The sooner he's gotten rid off the better. Nothing to be done with a character like that.
I take it that you'd be happy if your club paying 70m with current wages for Sancho?
Dortmund is like the shadiest drug dealer in town. We buy from them, bang, it’s baby laxative. Then scrape money together and go back, buy from them again. Another bag of baby laxative. Sancho was our third attempt and we thought we had the upper hand because we waited a year and our pusher knocked a few grand off the price tag. This time, it’s baby laxative spiked with ghost peppers.
Some people find the truth hard to take seriously. Especially when they’ve been creaming themselves over the player for years.
Look, playing for Manchester United this past decade isn’t easy. It comes with a club with a deeply flawed executive structure and recruitment strategy / capabilities. However great players tend to shine regardless to the extent they can whether that be Martinez, Casemiro, Ibrahimovic, Martial pre injuries, Rashford pre sulk, Bruno during most of his time here, DDG and more. Would those players be better in a more comfy environment - sure? But have they been so lacking in effort and application that they have been first relegated to the bench and then out of the squad and that too not after some great displays here and there but utter tripe for two seasons? Nope. Sancho should be a case study in how a player can shine when circumstances are tailor made for them and fall apart when they need to struggle and sacrifice to come good. His mentality is rotten and unless he grows up as a professional athlete he’ll fail to make anything substantial of his obvious talent.
It’s not really about a “disagreement with the manager”. It’s about meeting baseline professional standards that need to be met at an enormous football club like Manchester United.
Somehow City doesn't seem to have the same issue.
Is the worst signing we've had from Dortmund? Even worse than Kagawa?
Maybe they aren’t seasoning their drugs with baby laxatives and blaming their dealer for it.
At this point I'm just watching in amazement for how long people can cry about other clubs or leagues doing them wrong when you can basically lay a save bet that just about every big signing that United make will turn to shit sooner or later.
What's it to you? You guys are making out like bandits, fleecing us again and again. Probably shining up the new wonder boy for us to buy next year.
Bynoe-Gittens is almost ready to fix your right wing.
Yes can't wait, would you sell us Can for our midfield problems as well?
Taking Dortmund's captain would really put them in their place.
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I don't think there is much talent there to waste.
You would be devastated to lose Can for loads of money. It would be so tough to replace him.
Finally a chance for United to get some sweet revenge. And he's PL proven, too!
Let's put it like this, I'd be happy to make him our record signing and top earner.
But that is a completely different opinion to what I've been disagreeing with
Yes, Sancho isn't professional enough. But United is utterly terrible at getting the best out of their players and even worse at managing difficult personalities. Sancho and United were not only a bad fit in terms of playing style but also in terms of personality/culture, bringing out the worst of each other.Anyway, almost every example of "great players" you named came with an asterisk. That's because there are no players that performed constantly good. Plus most of the ones you named profit the very vertical playstyle the club and the fans seemingly want to see, such as Bruno and Rashford. But from what I've seen of those two, I don't believe for a second that they would be able to reproduce what Sancho did at Dortmund. They stand out in a team that plays chaotic football for different reasons but they are unfit to play sophisticated, structured football as the top teams play. And for some absurd reason, United seem to believe that this has to be their brand as evidenced by Ten Hag abandoning the playstyle he showed at Ajax (and in which Sancho would have fitted perfectly) to play some vertical transition system that no elite team in the world is using (and for which Sancho is a terrible fit).
Honestly, I'll be so pissed off if Sancho goes to the Saudi League. It would be totally ambitionless by him but I'm already at this point at which I role my eyes everytime a player I like watching is linked with United as this club is ruining promising young talents left, right and center.
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