Jadon Sancho (Out)

[RedRonaldo]

Read my post carefully again. Thanks.

I read. And I don't think anyone with sensible mind would have thought signing of Sancho would be a mistake back then.

 

[Zehner]

If you scouted Haaland, Bellingham, and Mbappe and thought there was no difference between them and Sancho, then you should probably lose your job as a scout.

Sancho didn't look any worse than Haaland. The only reason to have Haaland ahead of him back then was Haaland's hunger and professionalism but Sancho was at least as integral in Dortmund's cup win. Terrific player.

 

[eire-red]

There are a few really good young English players who’d have been much better and infinitely cheaper signings for us with the benefit of hindsight. Eze, Olise, Gibbs-White to name three. Huge transfers rarely work out. Even more rarely from the BL. Doesn’t mean the BL is a bad source of players, just means I would hardly ever spend big money on a BL player unless they were unequivocally brilliant. Haaland, De Bruyne, Lewandowski level.

Otherwise I’d be capping my spend on that league to 40ishM. Wirtz looks a big talent from there, but I’d want a heavily incentivised deal to sign him. Like 40-50m up front and the rest in bonuses. Only BL player I’d spend big on right now, who looks a sure bet for any league in the world, is Musiala.




TBF there were plenty of warning signs that most of us wanted to ignore. Including me. Was signed to play right wing, because that was our problem position, despite everyone knowing deep down he preferred the left. Never, ever possessed any extraordinary physical gifts, in that he wasn’t rapier quick or strong. Just a moderately quick acceleration. If you looked at a lot of his highlights from the BL, he tallied up great numbers taking advantage of space he wouldn’t be afforded in the PL, especially playing for a top team against low blocks. He also had lots of fitness issues at Dortmund, not so much with injuries, but returning from the off season in poor shape, being overweight etc. He was also admonished a few times for poor discipline and time keeping.

These were all things we chose to ignore, because we’ve been desperate for a revival of our fortunes for so long.

He’s clearly better than what he’s shown, but I don’t think he was ever anywhere near as good as any of us thought. A big reason he rarely, ever stood out for England, even at his peak Dortmund confidence days.

Another shit transfer where the club hasn’t done its homework or used a data driven approach. We can file Antony under that category too. Players who were signed under the “eye test”, by popular demand, or due to manager familiarity. I bet if you look at the underlying data of both, in metrics that would apply to the PL, the data would show them to be shit potential transfers.

Three years ago I think it was the Athletic who used a data driven analysis to analyse the gaps in United’s on field performance and then tried to match them with players whose on field metrics matched the needs of the team. The two names that stood out head and shoulders above the rest, in terms of being transformative in how we’d play were Camavinga and Frimpong. Who were both available at very reasonable fees at the time.

It wasn’t too long after we ignored what the data was telling us, by instead signing Sancho, Varane and Ronaldo; that it fell apart. At that point, another data driven analysis by the hugely unpopular Rangnick, suggested we buy Enzo Fernandez (available for <20m), Nkunku, Gvardiol (would’ve cost about what Casemiro cost at that time), Julian Alvarez (25m) and Luis Diaz. So there is quite literally evidence out there in the public domain that we could’ve had a team with Gvardiol, Frimpong, Camavinga, Enzo, Nkunku, Diaz and Alvarez for about what Sancho, Antony, Mount and Varane cost. We also wouldn’t have had to spend 65m on a 30 year old DM either.

And this is just shit in the public domain. Imagine how bad it is behind the scenes. The players we’ve ignored, the recommendations we’ve brushed aside. We set up a whole DoF style system under a proven DoF in Rangnick and then ditched it because of a bad six months as coach and on the advice of the new manager who wanted full control. Which is the antithesis of the whole purpose of having a DoF. This club just doesn’t have any joined up thinking.

Frankly, if United are interested in a player under the Glazers, I just assume that he is overpriced shit at this point.

You've called out a good few valid points. I think United have been caught in this perpetual cycle of buying players who can deliver right now, because every summer we seem to need to replace 4/5 of the starting 11.

Even this coming summer, after buying Casemiro, Eriksen, Mount and Amrabat on loan, we probably still need 2 CM's. Add that to the fact that we need to replace Varane and probably need another CB along with that, and both of those recruits have to come in and hit the ground running.

We never seem to be in a position where we can take a punt on those under the radar talents because we have glaring holes in the starting 11, but the cycle is just and endless spiral because we're not planning for a team in 2 / 3 years, because the manager is never sure he has that long and United demand results right now.

Building a team to win major honours is as much an art as it is a science in my view. For all the information and data points we collect on players. You never know how the mentality and attitude of a player will fit at a club like United.

I think you're right though, it's time we scrapped the marquee signings every summer and focused on the collective. I never feel like we're building a starting 11 looking at it from a unit point of view. Like, for what we needed in midfield, Kovacic was the better buy from Chelsea than Mount because he dovetails better with what Bruno and Casemiro lack. Is that not obvious to see? Not saying we should have signed Kovacic, but there's not one obvious attribute that Mount has that we're sorely lacking in our midfield?

Hojlund is a good signing up front, but are Antony, Rashford and Garnacho the best players to get the most out of him? It's all seems too individualistic and point in time approach. But I do have sympathy for EtH. Would we have gotten 3rd and won the EFL without Casemiro last season? I genuinely don't think so. The knives would have been out for him last season, and if he didn't have some credit in the bank from last season he would be under a lot more pressure right now.

I think rebuilding United is the most demanding job in world football right now. Teams like Madrid, PSG, Barca are guaranteed CL football and a title challenge every season, unless they are absolutely terrible. They can go under the radar a lot more.

Madrid have Joselu as their only out and out striker and are relying on Rodrygo and Vini for goals. I think they'd struggle in the prem with that team, and same for Barca and PSG. But you can have those off-periods and paper over the cracks with a good CL run and you're still in with a decent shout of winning your domestic league. The margin for error is so small in the PL.

 

[DanClancy]

What’s his current book value now? I.e. what do we need for FFP.

He signed a 5 year contract and cost around £72m, he'll have done 2.5 year by Janaury but from an accounting point of view I don't know whether they count 6 months?

If they don't United need around £43m but that drops to £30m come this summer, unless the Saudi's bail United out it will be a loan this January.

 

[simonhch]

You've called out a good few valid points. I think United have been caught in this perpetual cycle of buying players who can deliver right now, because every summer we seem to need to replace 4/5 of the starting 11.

Even this coming summer, after buying Casemiro, Eriksen, Mount and Amrabat on loan, we probably still need 2 CM's. Add that to the fact that we need to replace Varane and probably need another CB along with that, and both of those recruits have to come in and hit the ground running.

We never seem to be in a position where we can take a punt on those under the radar talents because we have glaring holes in the starting 11, but the cycle is just and endless spiral because we're not planning for a team in 2 / 3 years, because the manager is never sure he has that long and United demand results right now.

Building a team to win major honours is as much an art as it is a science in my view. For all the information and data points we collect on players. You never know how the mentality and attitude of a player will fit at a club like United.

I think you're right though, it's time we scrapped the marquee signings every summer and focused on the collective. I never feel like we're building a starting 11 looking at it from a unit point of view. Like, for what we needed in midfield, Kovacic was the better buy from Chelsea than Mount because he dovetails better with what Bruno and Casemiro lack. Is that not obvious to see? Not saying we should have signed Kovacic, but there's not one obvious attribute that Mount has that we're sorely lacking in our midfield?

Hojlund is a good signing up front, but are Antony, Rashford and Garnacho the best players to get the most out of him? It's all seems too individualistic and point in time approach. But I do have sympathy for EtH. Would we have gotten 3rd and won the EFL without Casemiro last season? I genuinely don't think so. The knives would have been out for him last season, and if he didn't have some credit in the bank from last season he would be under a lot more pressure right now.

I think rebuilding United is the most demanding job in world football right now. Teams like Madrid, PSG, Barca are guaranteed CL football and a title challenge every season, unless they are absolutely terrible. They can go under the radar a lot more.

Madrid have Joselu as their only out and out striker and are relying on Rodrygo and Vini for goals. I think they'd struggle in the prem with that team, and same for Barca and PSG. But you can have those off-periods and paper over the cracks with a good CL run and you're still in with a decent shout of winning your domestic league. The margin for error is so small in the PL.

Your point about the knives being out for ETH last season without the 3rd and League Cup trophy is a very salient point because it’s exactly why you don’t let the manager drive recruitment. Manager’s inherently face a win or perform now mentality, and therefore will buy players who will deliver immediately, a la Casemiro, and be damned the consequences next season or the season after. This is why you need a DoF. To secure the long term health of the squad. A squad should have a diverse spread of age profiles with only 2-3 turnovers needed per season. SAF was one of the few managers to understand this and be afforded the luxury of time to build it.

 

[bond19821982]

Think if we can get Chiesa back from Juve , I would do a swap deal.

 

[Fortitude]

It's also pretty telling that Ten Hag decided to abandon his typically Ajax positional game approach to play a transition style. Sancho would have been ideal for the football Ten Hag wanted to see in the Netherlands but definitely not for whatever he's trying now. Even though he can definitely do a better job than he did.

I honestly thought this manager would be absolutely delighted to work with the player because of what he provides and represents. Couldn't have been more wrong.

Although I will say even if he knows how to use Sancho in isolation, he doesn't seem to know how to construct a team to play cohesive football from the personnel he has at his disposal. With or without Sancho, we do not play fluid football, and a lot of intricacy has been replaced by verticality, which is a nightmare for a technician like Sancho who thrives off intricacy and interplay.

It's very hard to gauge the fallout, however, I don't know what followed what: did Sancho check out before ten Hag even got a chance to work with him? Did ten Hag not fancy the player, which lead to bubbling discontent into the shitshow that's led here? Was it something else? It's all so difficult to assess from the outside in.

But as a club, if we weren't intending to switch to a more considered style of football, I don't know why Sancho was pursued at all.

 

[Nedved]

Think if we can get Chiesa back from Juve , I would do a swap deal.

The best Italian footballer (although not as explosive as pre-injury) for a player frozen out of your squad. Makes sense for all parties.

 

[Offsideagain]

Sancho was bought by the media. The papers and TV pundits were all over how good Sancho was and think United followed that narrative, same with Hojlund who at least gives it a go. We all know Sancho will be sold at a loss, even with amortisiation lowering his value on the books. He will, of course return to OT with another team and have a blinder as most players that leave do. I thought he's be an assett having watched a few Dortmund games on TV, he's a shadow of that player as is Antony according to a Dutch football hack. I wonder why it is these players suddenly become Pub players (with all due respect to pub players) when the red shirt goes on.

 

[Stacks]

If we get the £72m or whatever we paid back that’d be good business.

Same. We can buy a forward who scores in the prem and maybe sneak top 4!

 

[DJ_21]

Same. We can buy a forward who scores in the prem and maybe sneak top 4!

Wishful thinking. Doubt we’re getting a proven goalscorer in January. I mean best we could do last year was Weghorst.

 

[Alex99]

Wishful thinking. Doubt we’re getting a proven goalscorer in January. I mean best we could do last year was Weghorst.

He's got 3 in 9 for Hoffenheim. Maybe we should hijack the loan.

 

[Unam333]

Sancho was bought by the media. The papers and TV pundits were all over how good Sancho was and think United followed that narrative, same with Hojlund who at least gives it a go. We all know Sancho will be sold at a loss, even with amortisiation lowering his value on the books. He will, of course return to OT with another team and have a blinder as most players that leave do. I thought he's be an assett having watched a few Dortmund games on TV, he's a shadow of that player as is Antony according to a Dutch football hack. I wonder why it is these players suddenly become Pub players (with all due respect to pub players) when the red shirt goes on.

Bolded part I kinda agree. I remember Neville saying that Varane, Sancho and Kane will make us title contenders (well, he is right about Kane, he's pretty injury free and world class).

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

This signing has me convinced that Manchester United have been cursed by an actual demon.

 

[bond19821982]

The best Italian footballer (although not as explosive as pre-injury) for a player frozen out of your squad. Makes sense for all parties.

Exactly my point. It was a sarcastic comment which you missed completely. With Juve, we don't expect anything but a loan for 2 years and no obligation to buy and 100% of the wages on us.

 

[FootyGirl88]

Think if we can get Chiesa back from Juve , I would do a swap deal.

Id prefer his replacement to have PL experience, we need someone that can come in and hit the ground running.

 

[Isotope]

Id prefer his replacement to have PL experience, we need someone that can come in and hit the ground running.

If their clubs are willing to part away, Solly March or Olise would be nice.

 

[2 man midfield]

Id prefer his replacement to have PL experience, we need someone that can come in and hit the ground running.

I’d snap their hand off for Chiesa. We aren’t getting any money for Sancho, and don’t have any of our own to spend.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

The only reason to have Haaland ahead of him back then was Haaland's hunger and professionalism but Sancho was at least as integral in Dortmund's cup win.

Also that Haaland just seemed more of a freak in terms of extreme qualities, or if you will: just better on the whole.

But, yeah, I agree with the general gist of your argument (as I take it): to ordinary fans, Sancho obviously seemed a very good prospect, and it's ridiculous to pretend otherwise now.

I remember there was a debate on here over those two, actually. And many people preferred Sancho, I won't say most (because I can't back that up), but many did.

ETA The idea that Haaland was a flat track bully, a flash in the pan, would be "found out" in England...and so forth was common. Let's not forget that. A lot of people on here ended up with egg on their faces.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I could be wrong, but I doubt you are one of those very very very few people out there (probably they don't exist) who are being strongly vocal against the signing of Sancho back then.

You're wrong.
Also, I'm not a scout.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

What makes you think Haaland, Bellingham or even Mbappe would have shined here? The set up at our club is partly to blame for ruining some players careers.

Because they are world class.

 

[Alex99]

What makes you think Haaland, Bellingham or even Mbappe would have shined here? The set up at our club is partly to blame for ruining some players careers.

They've all shone outside of Dortmund.

As others have pointed out, Sancho has always been a fairly anonymous presence for England.

 

[Jeffthered]

Hope he goes. He will enjoy that league.... rubbish football, no expectations and lots of cash. Sancho needs to take a very long look in the mirror. If he does indeed go to Saudi, it's actually a bit of an embarrassment for him.

 

[DJ_21]

Because they are world class.

As was Ronaldo still when he came back to us. Pogba was probably in that bracket when we re signed him. We turn world class players into mediocre players.

 

[DJ_21]

They've all shone outside of Dortmund.

As others have pointed out, Sancho has always been a fairly anonymous presence for England.

Has he even had a fair shot for England? This isn’t me defending Sancho but I’ve seen him have a few sub appearances.

 

[Fortitude]

Has he even had a fair shot for England? This isn’t me defending Sancho but I’ve seen him have a few sub appearances.

Southgate would have absolutely no idea how to use Sancho. Without a progressive coach Sancho stands no chance of a career at international level.

 

[jeff gurr]

If we get the £72m or whatever we paid back that’d be good business.

I would be surprised if any club would pay much over 30m right now especially with the wage he is on. The feud with ETH will keep driving the price down even further.

 

[Lash]

Has he even had a fair shot for England? This isn’t me defending Sancho but I’ve seen him have a few sub appearances.

What @Fortitude said and he also managed to piss Southgate off with his timekeeping, so not really any chance of him ever trusting him.

 

[Alex99]

Has he even had a fair shot for England? This isn’t me defending Sancho but I’ve seen him have a few sub appearances.

Define "fair shot".

He made his debut at 18 and has 23 caps, which seems fair enough to me. As a note, the only cap he's had since joining United was against Andorra, the September after he joined.

 

[DJ_21]

Southgate would have absolutely no idea how to use Sancho. Without a progressive coach Sancho stands no chance of a career at international level.

Agreed. We thought he’d show more under ETH since he’s suppose to be a progressive coach.

 

[DJ_21]

Define "fair shot".

He made his debut at 18 and has 23 caps, which seems fair enough to me. As a note, the only cap he's had since joining United was against Andorra, the September after he joined.

How many as he started though?

 

[Still ill]

Southgate would have absolutely no idea how to use Sancho. Without a progressive coach Sancho stands no chance of a career at international level.

The endless tactical debate, whereby players are completely inhibited from showing that they can play football because their clueless coach plays them 10 yards further back than he's supposed to exhausts me. I think the majority of us would give him the benefit of the doubt if he brought some intensity and desire to the field when he got the opportunity. If we felt it mattered to him. If we felt he cared about being here. But he didn't. So get rid.

 

[Alex99]

How many as he started though?

12 by my count.

How many chances does a player get at international level before a lack of impact sees them dropped? He was in the squad for about three years.

 

[ayushreddevil9]

How many on here think he will be a success in his next club?

 

[DJ_21]

12 by my count.

How many chances does a player get at international level before a lack of impact sees them dropped? He was in the squad for about three years.

The likes of Henderson, Phillips, still get games for England… what have they done to have earned that? They’re awful for country.

 

[Alex99]

The likes of Henderson, Phillips, still get games for England… what have they done to have earned that? They’re awful for country.

They're fortunate that there's a lack of options in midfield.

Are you suggesting Sancho play as a holding midfielder?

 

[DJ_21]

They're fortunate that there's a lack of options in midfield.

Are you suggesting Sancho play as a holding midfielder?

Not at all. Just making a point in which you said how many chances do players get at international level…

 

[Alex99]

Not at all. Just making a point in which you said how many chances do players get at international level…

Well you'll obviously get more chances if there's less competition.

I wouldn't say any of those players shone at international level either. They've just played a fair bit.

This started with a comparison to Haaland and Bellingham, with the clear implication being that they all looked good at Dortmund. The obvious difference is that Bellingham has looked good for Birmingham, England and Real Madrid, and Haaland has looked good for Molde, Norway, Salzburg and City, in addition to looking good at Dortmund.

Sancho has looked good for Dortmund.

 

[didz]

How many on here think he will be a success in his next club?

I mean if he fails at Al Hilal, he's got bigger problems than anyone thought...

 

[ayushreddevil9]

I mean if he fails at Al Hilal, he's got bigger problems than anyone thought...

Going by the news, Saudi is not his preference