Jadon Sancho (Out)

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@THE ZOL

Zol, I replied to you in the Sancho performance thread but you seemed to have missed it. The reply seems apt here though as well to your above posts so I'll post it again.


1) Sancho didn’t warrant being criticised publicly? Why not? Other plays have been, rashford and garnacho are two example of this. So why shouldn’t sancho be called out if he hasn’t met the mgrs requirement.

2) Being criticised isn’t humiliation, and nobody has said Sancho needs to grovel. Furthermore, where has it come from that he apologised in private and ETH demand it be public? By the accounts I’ve read, sancho has refused to apologise entirely, and that’s all he needs to do. Not that anything has to be made public.


This is one I'd really like to understand?!?!?::

One final thing i don’t really understand as well is what sancho thinks he is actually being scape goated for?
He hasn’t played enough for anyone, pundit or fan, to blame our results or performances on, so what is it he/you thinks he is being scapegoated for?
 
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Trequarista10 said:
Garnacho is 19 and already roughly as productive as Sancho has been for us, so its a weird comparison, and even weirder to try and use it to downplay Garnacho.
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Roughly? Garnacho has had loads of good games and looks everything Sancho hasn't for us.
 
Sandikan said:
Roughly? Garnacho has had loads of good games and looks everything Sancho hasn't for us.
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Based on the goals and assists stats posted above, they're roughly similar, which is what I'm referencing by "productivity". Although it only counted appearances not minutes, but I would assume Garnacho has more substitute appearances and a higher G+A per 90. But yeah, it's also more than that, as you say. Garnacho has shown for more drive, impetus, attitude and willingness to be the difference maker than Sancho ever has for us. At 18/19. I'm quite baffled by the poster who says Sancho has done more.
 
Trequarista10 said:
Based on the goals and assists stats posted above, they're roughly similar, which is what I'm referencing by "productivity". Although it only counted appearances not minutes, but I would assume Garnacho has more substitute appearances and a higher G+A per 90. But yeah, it's also more than that, as you say. Garnacho has shown for more drive, impetus, attitude and willingness to be the difference maker than Sancho ever has for us. At 18/19. I'm quite baffled by the poster who says Sancho has done more.
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I cannot believe we spent so much on him. And paid him the weekly wage we have.
 
Frosty said:
I cannot believe we spent so much on him. And paid him the weekly wage we have.
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Its tough to swallow for sure. I do get why we did, but it's just another example of the poor oversight and planning though. In the right setup, there's a good player there. The system at Dortmund suited him perfectly and he looked worthy of the price tag. But he wasn't suited to our formation nor our style. Arguably he doesn't even have the physicality for the PL at all. And his behaviour suggests that he doesn't have the required mentality either. If we had a DoF who knew what they were doing they'd likely gave pieced it together and concluded against signing him.
 
THE ZOL said:
If a place in a team picked by Ten Hag is the litmus test for quality then Antony is our best winger, right? His performances have undoubtedly been the best, right? Because he never seems to be dropped and gets unlimited chances to play himself into form.

This is likely Sancho’s grievance and why he feels scapegoated. Ten Hag clearly has his favourites. Antony has a bad game and gets a chance to rectify it in the next game. Sancho doesn’t set the world alight and he’s at the back of the queue being reduced to garbage minutes again. You can see why he feels that it’s not just a case of “if I work hard the manager will give me a shot” because the manager has shown that he just doesn’t fancy Sancho stylistically.

you also need to stop conveniently ignoring the good performances Sancho had towards the end of last season.
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Sancho has never had what I'd call a good performance for us or even looked like applying himself in order to adapt to the league and make the most of his talent. Your posts are completely deluded and a bit of a joke tbh.
 
zizi said:
@THE ZOL

Zol, I replied to you in the Sancho performance thread but you seemed to have missed it. The reply seems apt here though as well to your above posts so I'll post it again.


1) Sancho didn’t warrant being criticised publicly? Why not? Other plays have been, rashford and garnacho are two example of this. So why shouldn’t sancho be called out if he hasn’t met the mgrs requirement.

2) Being criticised isn’t humiliation, and nobody has said Sancho needs to grovel. Furthermore, where has it come from that he apologised in private and ETH demand it be public? By the accounts I’ve read, sancho has refused to apologise entirely, and that’s all he needs to do. Not that anything has to be made public.


This is one I'd really like to understand?!?!?::

One final thing i don’t really understand as well is what sancho thinks he is actually being scape goated for?
He hasn’t played enough for anyone, pundit or fan, to blame our results or performances on, so what is it he/you thinks he is being scapegoated for?
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I’m going to make points I have made repeatedly.

1) Why should any player be criticised publicly? That’s not good management. Feel free to criticise behind closed doors but in public it is humiliation. Do you remember how much this fanbase hated it when Jose used to do this to the likes of Shaw, Pogba, Martial and Rashford? The club that Sir Alex built was a family club based upon an us vs. the world mentality. Our internal issues were kept indoors. And even if Sir Alex saw fit to take a dispute public, as he did with Rooney, it certainly wasn’t a player that had already shown themselves to be rather sensitive. Ten Hag showed that he doesn’t have emotional intelligence.

2) The Atheltic’s Laurie Whitwell reported that Ten Hag demanded an apology to be made public. Sancho refused as it would effectively assert that the claims which he disputes are true.

3) It’s clear for us to see how Sancho is held to a different standard to Antony. For Sancho to feel scapegoated it was probably due to him being criticised following the loss against Arsenal when Ten Hag left him out of the squad altoget


Withnail said:
Sancho has never had what I'd call a good performance for us or even looked like applying himself in order to adapt to the league and make the most of his talent. Your posts are completely deluded and a bit of a joke tbh.
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You’re calling me deluded but you’re saying that Sanch has not even had ONE good performance. I can think of two off the top of my head: Leeds away 21/22 and Chelsea home 22/23. He also scored at City, Chelsea and Spurs and at home vs. Liverpool.

You’re saying “he hasn’t even looked like applying himself” as you watch him train or you know what goes on inside his head. You’re basing this Sancho laziness stuff on the briefings made against him by the club to attack the character of their own employee to justify Ten Hag’s decision to banish him. Who cares if he stays up at night sometimes playing Fifa or comes in late sometimes? It doesn’t make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things and it wasn’t an issue when he was at BVB. None of this stuff even mattered before he rebuked Ten Hag’s statement.

You can call me deluded all you like. At least I’m using my critical thinking to not blindly buy the narrative fed to us by a club that is rotten to the core.
 
THE ZOL said:
You’re calling me deluded but you’re saying that Sanch has not even had ONE good performance. I can think of two off the top of my head: Leeds away 21/22 and Chelsea home 22/23. He also scored at City, Chelsea and Spurs and at home vs. Liverpool.

You’re saying “he hasn’t even looked like applying himself” as you watch him train or you know what goes on inside his head. You’re basing this Sancho laziness stuff on the briefings made against him by the club to attack the character of their own employee to justify Ten Hag’s decision to banish him. Who cares if he stays up at night sometimes playing Fifa or comes in late sometimes? It doesn’t make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things and it wasn’t an issue when he was at BVB. None of this stuff even mattered before he rebuked Ten Hag’s statement.

You can call me deluded all you like. At least I’m using my critical thinking to not blindly buy the narrative fed to us by a club that is rotten to the core.
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Scoring goals doesn't mean he played well or to his potential. He's played in fits and starts and in moments. For a spell it looked like he could pull it together but no I don't remember him having what I'd call a good game. Decent? yes looking like he could be finding form? sure. He's never looked all that bothered for us. I don't need to see him in training, I'm talking about applying himself in games.

And trying to claim that being more interested in playing games all night then turning up on time and being well rested for training isn't important. That's absolutely ludicrous. You're just proving my point here.

This stuff was happening at Dortmund and he was dropped in 2017/18 for coming in late to training repeatedly. He was also dropped in 2019 for arriving back late from England duty and again from the starting line up against Barca. The rumour as he was again late for team breakfast, morning warm-up and a talk by the coach. When it was put to the coach by journalists he said 'it wasn't exactly that' which isn't a stringent denial.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/jadon-sancho-dropped-borussia-dortmund-20652943


https://www.the42.ie/jadon-sancho-borussia-dortmund-dropped-disciplinary-reasons-4911986-Nov2019/

You also remember when he felt 'humiliated and scapegoated' at Dortmund?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...Liverpool-target-dropped-Barcelona-clash.html

But no he never had any problems at Dortmund. None at all. They must also be a basket case club who were briefing against poor Jadon.
 
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It’s not even about ability at this point, it’s attitude. He doesn’t deserve to wear this shirt. It’s that simple. Plus he has always been crap for us, let’s not act like he hasn’t.
 
THE ZOL said:
1) Why should any player be criticised publicly? That’s not good management. Feel free to criticise behind closed doors but in public it is humiliation. Do you remember how much this fanbase hated it when Jose used to do this to the likes of Shaw, Pogba, Martial and Rashford? The club that Sir Alex built was a family club based upon an us vs. the world mentality. Our internal issues were kept indoors. And even if Sir Alex saw fit to take a dispute public, as he did with Rooney, it certainly wasn’t a player that had already shown themselves to be rather sensitive. Ten Hag showed that he doesn’t have emotional intelligence
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There's a huge difference between a small bit of constructive criticism (Sancho's didn't train well enough this week) and the toxic over-the-top criticism that Mourinho constantly went on with. It is not remotely comparable.

Let's not pretend that ETH said this out of the blue. Sancho has been talked about as being unprofessional and a poor trainer throughout his entire career. It is almost certain that ETH has tried multiple things behind the scenes to get him to pull his head out of his arse, and they ultimately haven't worked. Saying he didn't train well this week was one further step along the way, and if a player is so weak that he can't handle that (when it was almost certainly true) then that is on him, not the manager. Just like when it happened at Dortmund. Ultimately, Sancho is showing that he simply isn't mentally strong enough and professional enough to succeed at any club which sets high standards. Rather than drop the standards for him, he should rightfully be called out.

And before you point at other players not being held to high standards, perhaps that is the point. In a group of players that are lazy and not good enough, Sancho still manages to stand out as being the worst. Just how bad must he be?
 
Withnail said:
Scoring goals doesn't mean he played well or to his potential. He's played in fits and starts and in moments. For a spell it looked like he could pull it together but no I don't remember him having what I'd call a good game. Decent? yes looking like he could be finding form? sure. He's never looked all that bothered for us. I don't need to see him in training, I'm talking about applying himself in games.

And trying to claim that being more interested in playing games all night then turning up on time and being well rested for training isn't important. That's absolutely ludicrous. You're just proving my point here.

This stuff was happening at Dortmund and he was dropped in 2017/18 for coming in late to training repeatedly. He was also dropped in 2019 for arriving back late from England duty and again from the starting line up against Barca. The rumour as he was again late for team breakfast, morning warm-up and a talk by the coach. When it was put to the coach by journalists he said 'it wasn't exactly that' which isn't a stringent denial.

https://www.irishmirror.ie/sport/soccer/soccer-news/jadon-sancho-dropped-borussia-dortmund-20652943


https://www.the42.ie/jadon-sancho-borussia-dortmund-dropped-disciplinary-reasons-4911986-Nov2019/

You also remember when he felt 'humiliated and scapegoated' at Dortmund?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/f...Liverpool-target-dropped-Barcelona-clash.html

But no he never had any problems at Dortmund. None at all. They must also be a basket case club who were briefing against poor Jadon.
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I should have been clearer. His persistent lateness wasn’t an issue to the extent that he had to be banished to some Dutch mountains or exiled totally. It didn’t impact his on the pitch performances. Maybe BVB just accepted that this is his weakness and approached it with more patience.

On the public criticism point - the Sancho criticised by Lucien Favre back in 2019 isn’t the same as Sancho of today. That Sancho was a kid with the world at his feet that played with a bit of arrogance. Perhaps it was necessary to humble him a little bit.

Sancho of 2023 is a fragile man. The penalty miss at the Euros and the racial abuse that followed, the death of a close mate from Kennington, one of his aunts passing away, the scrutiny of being at United and not instantly setting the world alight after illness plus entering a dysfunctional team entering a crisis… all of these things add up. You don’t know what life is like in his shoes and you cannot compare struggles or how you would handle them.

But good post anyway. Appreciate the effort and time you took finding sources and whatnot.


MadDogg said:
There's a huge difference between a small bit of constructive criticism (Sancho's didn't train well enough this week) and the toxic over-the-top criticism that Mourinho constantly went on with. It is not remotely comparable.

Let's not pretend that ETH said this out of the blue. Sancho has been talked about as being unprofessional and a poor trainer throughout his entire career. It is almost certain that ETH has tried multiple things behind the scenes to get him to pull his head out of his arse, and they ultimately haven't worked. Saying he didn't train well this week was one further step along the way, and if a player is so weak that he can't handle that (when it was almost certainly true) then that is on him, not the manager. Just like when it happened at Dortmund. Ultimately, Sancho is showing that he simply isn't mentally strong enough and professional enough to succeed at any club which sets high standards. Rather than drop the standards for him, he should rightfully be called out.

And before you point at other players not being held to high standards, perhaps that is the point. In a group of players that are lazy and not good enough, Sancho still manages to stand out as being the worst. Just how bad must he be?
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See what I wrote above re: Sancho’s mental state to understand why Ten Hag’s public criticism was unwise and not sensible. As a manager you should know better and you should be more sensible to these things. But clearly that’s not ETH’s style, as evidence in his current reported unwaivering stance vis-a-vis squad dissatisfaction over training.

As for high standards at United… seriously? Standards at this club have been in free fall since the day Sir Alex retired. When our aging squad needed reinforcements and all we got was Fellaini on deadline day. When Moyes said our aim would be to make it hard for City (pause). When LvG told us to trust a process that would take at least 3 months. When we started being happy with top 4 finishes. When we let Leicester win the league. When it became acceptable that we would finish 6th because we won two cups. When Sevilla dumped us out of the cup and it was just football ‘eritage. Old Trafford’s roof leaking. The jacuzzi that hadn’t changed in the 11 years Cristiano was gone. Players like Phil Jones getting Death Row contracts constantly renewed despite contributing nothing on the pitch. Investment bankers running the club and firing proper football people if they dare to challenge them.

We’ve literally lost 13 games before Xmas, in our worst form post-SAF, haven’t scored in 4 games, we routinely get beaten with ease but continue using the same awful tactics, -5 GD, only Sheffield United scored less than us and only Luton and Sheffield United concede more shots than us. Yet most of the fanbase still wants to give the manager time… standards are absolutely in the mud, mate!
 
THE ZOL said:
I should have been clearer. His persistent lateness wasn’t an issue to the extent that he had to be banished to some Dutch mountains or exiled totally. It didn’t impact his on the pitch performances. Maybe BVB just accepted that this is his weakness and approached it with more patience.

On the public criticism point - the Sancho criticised by Lucien Favre back in 2019 isn’t the same as Sancho of today. That Sancho was a kid with the world at his feet that played with a bit of arrogance. Perhaps it was necessary to humble him a little bit.

Sancho of 2023 is a fragile man. The penalty miss at the Euros and the racial abuse that followed, the death of a close mate from Kennington, one of his aunts passing away, the scrutiny of being at United and not instantly setting the world alight after illness plus entering a dysfunctional team entering a crisis… all of these things add up. You don’t know what life is like in his shoes and you cannot compare struggles or how you would handle them.

But good post anyway. Appreciate the effort and time you took finding sources and whatnot.

---

See what I wrote above re: Sancho’s mental state to understand why Ten Hag’s public criticism was unwise and not sensible. As a manager you should know better and you should be more sensible to these things. But clearly that’s not ETH’s style, as evidence in his current reported unwaivering stance vis-a-vis squad dissatisfaction over training.

As for high standards at United… seriously? Standards at this club have been in free fall since the day Sir Alex retired. When our aging squad needed reinforcements and all we got was Fellaini on deadline day. When Moyes said our aim would be to make it hard for City (pause). When LvG told us to trust a process that would take at least 3 months. When we started being happy with top 4 finishes. When we let Leicester win the league. When it became acceptable that we would finish 6th because we won two cups. When Sevilla dumped us out of the cup and it was just football ‘eritage. Old Trafford’s roof leaking. The jacuzzi that hadn’t changed in the 11 years Cristiano was gone. Players like Phil Jones getting Death Row contracts constantly renewed despite contributing nothing on the pitch. Investment bankers running the club and firing proper football people if they dare to challenge them.

We’ve literally lost 13 games before Xmas, in our worst form post-SAF, haven’t scored in 4 games, we routinely get beaten with ease but continue using the same awful tactics, -5 GD, only Sheffield United scored less than us and only Luton and Sheffield United concede more shots than us. Yet most of the fanbase still wants to give the manager time… standards are absolutely in the mud, mate!
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There is only so long you can take it easy on someone and effectively baby them where they don't have to fulfil the same expectations that the other players are. At some point you have to start pushing them to step up. If they are incapable of doing so, you cut them loose. But you don't do that without trying both the carrot and the stick, so unless you think ETH and Ole before him didn't try any positive reinforcement first and went straight to the stick (which I find hard to believe) then it simply had to happen. Then when it did, Sancho basically reacted the worst way he possibly could have.

At the point of the criticism, Sancho should have put his head down and worked harder. Even at the point that he made that public post in response, if he'd deleted it quickly and made another post about it being a mistake (preferably with an outright apology for doing so) then he probably would have had to cop another week or two suspension before being bought back in, at which point he'd have been expected to step up his training. But from memory he left that post up for almost a week, and has since refused to make any kind of apology or even acknowledgment that he shouldn't have made it. In that situation, he's simply left the manager no choice. No manager could bring him back in without basically destroying his authority in the players eyes, the media, the fans, and the board. At which point he'd be a dead man walking and may as well be fired on the spot.

As for the standards, yes they are just about at rock bottom. Which alludes to my point that if Sancho manages to stand-out negatively in a sea of poor standards, that is an indication of how bad he has been. When trying to turn things around you have to start at both ends if you ever want to fix it. The people at the top who have allowed such issues to fester and grow in the club, and the worst examples of it amongst the players.

If ultimately it comes out that ETH was a hard-arse on Sancho right from day one and has been unfairly criticising him and making him feel like shit at a time where he was struggling mentally, then I'll put my hand up and acknowledge that I was equally harsh on Sancho. It would be something similar that I've regularly criticised Mourinho for with his treatment of Martial at a time that he had a lot of shit going on (although even then that was worse seeing as Martial was actually our best performing attacker when given opportunities, something Sancho certainly hasn't been). But playing the odds, that's the least likely scenario.
 
Let's see if we can get rid of him in January..and get a player who's available
 
THE ZOL said:
I should have been clearer. His persistent lateness wasn’t an issue to the extent that he had to be banished to some Dutch mountains or exiled totally. It didn’t impact his on the pitch performances. Maybe BVB just accepted that this is his weakness and approached it with more patience.

On the public criticism point - the Sancho criticised by Lucien Favre back in 2019 isn’t the same as Sancho of today. That Sancho was a kid with the world at his feet that played with a bit of arrogance. Perhaps it was necessary to humble him a little bit.

Sancho of 2023 is a fragile man. The penalty miss at the Euros and the racial abuse that followed, the death of a close mate from Kennington, one of his aunts passing away, the scrutiny of being at United and not instantly setting the world alight after illness plus entering a dysfunctional team entering a crisis… all of these things add up. You don’t know what life is like in his shoes and you cannot compare struggles or how you would handle them.

But good post anyway. Appreciate the effort and time you took finding sources and whatnot.
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You're making excuses though. Maybe because he was younger he was given a bit more more lee way. Maybe he was able to get away with it in Germany and rely on his natural talent but the PL is a step up and defences are much more organised and prepared. The point is the issues were there and he's obviously not gotten anymore professional in the mean-time or sorted out whatever it is that means he isn't focussed on his football.

But again you're twisting what happened to suit your defence of Sancho. He wasn't banished for that. He was banished because he overreacted in an immaturely manner to quite mild criticism, publically undermining the manager, and then refused to apologise.

He's clearly fragile, we agree there and without knowing the details the club have tried to sort it out but it's up to him at the end of the day. Not to discount what anyone is going through but we all have personal issues and we've all gone through bereavement of those close to us. These problems predate all of that.
If he can't get his head right, turn up on time, train well and do what he's told by the manager then he won't be in the team no matter where he goes.
 
Have there been any (somewhat) reliable rumors about him? I keep seeing his name pop up from time to time on Dortmund related twitter posts and sometimes some articles seem to mention him vaguely, but I don't think I've seen an actual direct claim.
 
do.ob said:
Have there been any (somewhat) reliable rumors about him? I keep seeing his name pop up from time to time on Dortmund related twitter posts and sometimes some articles seem to mention him vaguely, but I don't think I've seen an actual direct claim.
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Not much. The only one I am willing to grant some plausibility and tangibility is that Juventus are/were very interested in loaning him (as per Romano), though the newest update (from a worse source) is that they are moving on as they cannot afford a transfer (which does not exclude a loan of course).
 
@THE ZOL

THE ZOL said:
I’m going to make points I have made repeatedly.

1) Why should any player be criticised publicly? That’s not good management. Feel free to criticise behind closed doors but in public it is humiliation. Do you remember how much this fanbase hated it when Jose used to do this to the likes of Shaw, Pogba, Martial and Rashford? The club that Sir Alex built was a family club based upon an us vs. the world mentality. Our internal issues were kept indoors. And even if Sir Alex saw fit to take a dispute public, as he did with Rooney, it certainly wasn’t a player that had already shown themselves to be rather sensitive. Ten Hag showed that he doesn’t have emotional intelligence.

2) The Atheltic’s Laurie Whitwell reported that Ten Hag demanded an apology to be made public. Sancho refused as it would effectively assert that the claims which he disputes are true.

3) It’s clear for us to see how Sancho is held to a different standard to Antony. For Sancho to feel scapegoated it was probably due to him being criticised following the loss against Arsenal when Ten Hag left him out of the squad altoget
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1) - Why shouldn't players be criticised in public? ETH has criticised other players, Rashford and Garnacho are two example of this. Neither threw their toys out the pram, they took it on the chin and came back into the team . Fergie has done it before, Rooney as you mentioned, Nani aswell when we lost to chelsea. It wasn't long ago when Guardiola publicly said Kalvin Phillips coming back from pre season overweight was the reason he wasn't playing.

If anything ETH has gone above and beyond for Sancho. How many players take 3 months out of a season to go on a bespoke training/mental health camp? ETH kept everything in house for over a season, but at some point if the carrot doesnt work then the stick comes out. if Sancho doesnt respond to either than maybe he is too sensitive to play in the highest pressured enviroments.

2) - Incorrect. The athletic reported that ETH demanded an apology. It was Murtough/Arnold who said that the club - not Sancho/ETH - would make it public. The club also quite clearly feel that Sancho is not in the right here.

3) - Again, quite simply, what is Sancho being scapegoated for? He didn't accuse ETH of having double standards, he said he was personally being scapegoated. They are completely different things.

I don't understand what he is being scapegoated for? He didn't even play the arsenal game so it can't be that loss?
 
zizi said:
@THE ZOL



1) - Why shouldn't players be criticised in public? ETH has criticised other players, Rashford and Garnacho are two example of this. Neither threw their toys out the pram, they took it on the chin and came back into the team . Fergie has done it before, Rooney as you mentioned, Nani aswell when we lost to chelsea. It wasn't long ago when Guardiola publicly said Kalvin Phillips coming back from pre season overweight was the reason he wasn't playing.

If anything ETH has gone above and beyond for Sancho. How many players take 3 months out of a season to go on a bespoke training/mental health camp? ETH kept everything in house for over a season, but at some point if the carrot doesnt work then the stick comes out. if Sancho doesnt respond to either than maybe he is too sensitive to play in the highest pressured enviroments.

2) - Incorrect. The athletic reported that ETH demanded an apology. It was Murtough/Arnold who said that the club - not Sancho/ETH - would make it public. The club also quite clearly feel that Sancho is not in the right here.

3) - Again, quite simply, what is Sancho being scapegoated for? He didn't accuse ETH of having double standards, he said he was personally being scapegoated. They are completely different things.

I don't understand what he is being scapegoated for? He didn't even play the arsenal game so it can't be that loss?
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Have you ever considered that public criticisms or any form of tough love do not work on everyone? Especially not somebody who is already mentally fragile? Someone who received racial abuse after missing a crucial penalty along some other family issues and a major life change?

You’re trying to justify the public criticism saying the stick and carrot approach was necessary. Why? If Ten Hag was this frustrated with Sancho why not just sell him?

You trying to use Arnold and Murtough to justify your points is only weakening it. Like Ten Hag, they do not belong at the club and Murtough especially is highly responsible for the awful past decade. I wouldn’t trust them to decide what socks to wear let alone any football decisions.
 
THE ZOL said:
Have you ever considered that public criticisms or any form of tough love do not work on everyone? Especially not somebody who is already mentally fragile? Someone who received racial abuse after missing a crucial penalty along some other family issues and a major life change?

You’re trying to justify the public criticism saying the stick and carrot approach was necessary. Why? If Ten Hag was this frustrated with Sancho why not just sell him?

You trying to use Arnold and Murtough to justify your points is only weakening it. Like Ten Hag, they do not belong at the club and Murtough especially is highly responsible for the awful past decade. I wouldn’t trust them to decide what socks to wear let alone any football decisions.
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@THE ZOL


At the fourth time of asking, could you please tell me what he has been scapegoated for so I can understand?



Yes - I agree public criticism won't work with everyone including Sancho evidently. But if you're not putting in the effort that is required of you, than your manager is going to try and change that. As ETH did. He tried the nice approach, he took him out of the spotlight in the middle of the season for three months, and gave Sancho plenty of time. Sancho still didn't put the effort in, so obviously ETH is going to try a different approach. Now that hasn't worked either, it is likely Sancho will be sold.
 
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A transfer thread where very little discussion about him being transferred is happening.
 
TwoSheds said:
Well only Gerrard is stupid/desperate enough to buy him.
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I do think it’s very telling that despite his previous showings of elite talent at Dortmund that there aren’t a line of suitors competing for his signature.
 
City would have taken a loss and wrote off this kid a long time ago. Do you think Pep would have put up with this in the squad?
 
All anyone needs to know about Sancho is how Harry Maguire conducted himself while being marginalised.

You can also add McTominay to the equation as well considering United were actively trying to get rid of him and Maguire yet both have remained professional, worked hard and taken any opportunity they have been given.

Sancho on the other hand...

Anyone who thinks Ten Hag is in yhewrong here just needs to take the above into account. No matter what, Ten Hag leaves the door open for a player if they are ready to prove themselves. Sancho decided against it. If he decides to grow up then that door is almost certainly open as long as he is here.
 
THE ZOL said:
Have you ever considered that public criticisms or any form of tough love do not work on everyone? Especially not somebody who is already mentally fragile? Someone who received racial abuse after missing a crucial penalty along some other family issues and a major life change?

You’re trying to justify the public criticism saying the stick and carrot approach was necessary. Why? If Ten Hag was this frustrated with Sancho why not just sell him?

You trying to use Arnold and Murtough to justify your points is only weakening it. Like Ten Hag, they do not belong at the club and Murtough especially is highly responsible for the awful past decade. I wouldn’t trust them to decide what socks to wear let alone any football decisions.
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He gave him a carrot by letting him take a 3 month break to get his head straight. When the carrot constantly fails, you give the stick.

You genuinely might be the worst poster on the forum.
 
THE ZOL said:
Have you ever considered that public criticisms or any form of tough love do not work on everyone? Especially not somebody who is already mentally fragile? Someone who received racial abuse after missing a crucial penalty along some other family issues and a major life change?

You’re trying to justify the public criticism saying the stick and carrot approach was necessary. Why? If Ten Hag was this frustrated with Sancho why not just sell him?

You trying to use Arnold and Murtough to justify your points is only weakening it. Like Ten Hag, they do not belong at the club and Murtough especially is highly responsible for the awful past decade. I wouldn’t trust them to decide what socks to wear let alone any football decisions.
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There are no mental health issues reported with Sancho. That is entirely an invention on your and others part, to suit your argument. The truth which is staring you in the face since his Dortmund days, hell since his City days, is that this is an unprofessional tit who thinks he's above working hard to maximise his talent. He will go nowhere with his attitude, and the sooner he's doing that elsewhere and out of this club which he has been stealing an exorbitant wage from, the better.
 
VP89 said:
He gave him a carrot by letting him take a 3 month break to get his head straight. When the carrot constantly fails, you give the stick.

You genuinely might be the worst poster on the forum.
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Ihave the same reaction score as you and you’ve had a head start of 8 years and 29,000 posts.

Maybe that’s because your primary contributions are regularly insulting posters who have different football opinions to you.


DJ Jeff said:
There are no mental health issues reported with Sancho. That is entirely an invention on your and others part, to suit your argument. The truth which is staring you in the face since his Dortmund days, hell since his City days, is that this is an unprofessional tit who thinks he's above working hard to maximise his talent. He will go nowhere with his attitude, and the sooner he's doing that elsewhere and out of this club which he has been stealing an exorbitant wage from, the better.
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Ok? :wenger:

It’s all made up, isn’t it? The racial abuse, the friends and family dying, the having to deactivate from social media etc. etc.?

Ironic you say that I’m inventing things to suit my argument but you say: “he’s an unprofessional tit who thinks he’s above working hard”.
 
JagUTD said:
All anyone needs to know about Sancho is how Harry Maguire conducted himself while being marginalised.

You can also add McTominay to the equation as well considering United were actively trying to get rid of him and Maguire yet both have remained professional, worked hard and taken any opportunity they have been given.

Sancho on the other hand...

Anyone who thinks Ten Hag is in yhewrong here just needs to take the above into account. No matter what, Ten Hag leaves the door open for a player if they are ready to prove themselves. Sancho decided against it. If he decides to grow up then that door is almost certainly open as long as he is here.
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This and you can add AWB to the list, he wasnt fancied at all by ETH but worked his way back from injury/illness (I don't remember well), took his opportunity in the final and became a key player from there on. Sancho doesn't have the heart to fight for 50/50s in games and he certainly won't fight to get back. A 19 year old Garnacho has overtaken him, get rid.
 
JagUTD said:
All anyone needs to know about Sancho is how Harry Maguire conducted himself while being marginalised.

You can also add McTominay to the equation as well considering United were actively trying to get rid of him and Maguire yet both have remained professional, worked hard and taken any opportunity they have been given.

Sancho on the other hand...

Anyone who thinks Ten Hag is in yhewrong here just needs to take the above into account. No matter what, Ten Hag leaves the door open for a player if they are ready to prove themselves. Sancho decided against it. If he decides to grow up then that door is almost certainly open as long as he is here.
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Yes, thank you.

We have absolutely no use for Sancho. Some people are hanging on to what they thought he was, or what they think he could be. Just take a look at what he has actually delivered - feck all.

With everything the club has gone through in the last ten years, it’s completely baffling to me that people are essentially advocating for more player power. Whether ETH is the right man for the long run or not he is still the manager, and you fecking do as he says. Or you can find some other club.
 
Sancho probably hoping we got tonked on Boxing Day and that would lead to Ten Hag’s firing. Now that he’s seen the team really playing for him and the pride of wearing the shirt, maybe he comes to his senses. I think he’s lost his place even if he did apologize at this late date. I’d rather see Rashford and Garnacho than him play.
 
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JagUTD said:
All anyone needs to know about Sancho is how Harry Maguire conducted himself while being marginalised.

You can also add McTominay to the equation as well considering United were actively trying to get rid of him and Maguire yet both have remained professional, worked hard and taken any opportunity they have been given.

Sancho on the other hand...

Anyone who thinks Ten Hag is in yhewrong here just needs to take the above into account. No matter what, Ten Hag leaves the door open for a player if they are ready to prove themselves. Sancho decided against it. If he decides to grow up then that door is almost certainly open as long as he is here.
Click to expand...

I back the manager here. He dealt with Sancho with compassion and care before the world cup, sending him on a camo to get phyisically and mentally resillient. Hes publicly tried to coax a good player to be consistent eg the liverpool game at home, personally didint think he played amazing, he got a goal but so be it.

So when hes not reaching the required standard in training to be considerd for a game, ETH was right to offer an honest reply to the question. If Sancho is that fragile he cant take honesf feedback publicly thats cool, but get better advisors around you and dont be going on social media to up the ante. There really should only be one winner there.

Maybe a different manager can get more out of him, best for all to part ways
 
We are talking about a more than highly paid PROFESSIONAL athlete here - if this athlete has to be babied or even persuaded to reach the required standard then he should not be a professional footballer. We are well past the age of players surviving on talent alone. No one was scapegoated, no one was publicly humilated by others, only by themselves through behaviour more fitting to teenager going puberty. You could argue it is not his fault our stupid management pays him as much as they do, but these wages come with a certain expectation even obligation to perform to the required standards. One can feel for him but ultimately no one forced anyone to choose the profession of a professional athlete.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
I do think it’s very telling that despite his previous showings of elite talent at Dortmund that there aren’t a line of suitors competing for his signature.
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As I just posted in another thread, his contract is obscene. He won’t leave for a pay cut, and because you so massively overpaid to attract him to the club you’re stuck with a very expensive player on a long contract.

Quite simply, clubs which would like him or where I could picture him going (mid to high tier clubs like Juventus, BvB, Atletico, maybe Villa/Spurs) can’t afford him.

He is on over £13m a year salary plus bonuses until 2027. A club would then also have to pay a transfer fee to Manchester United, a huge agent fee (notorious agent Emeka Obasi), signing on fee…

In short, the only clubs who could afford to take him on a permanent move don’t need him. The clubs that would want him can’t afford him.

I strongly suspect a loan next month back to Germany - if Ten Hag stays.
 
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