Bottom line it comes down to him just not being as good as once believed, add the weekly wage and it probably doesn't make much sense to keep him around.
Jadon Sancho (Out)
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When it comes to managing people, their personalities, their characters, strengths and weaknesses etc. you can’t adopt a one-size-fits-all approach.
You need to respect and understand that different people, especially at a football club that recruits from across the world, grew up in different circumstances, different cultures, different environments and had different experiences that shape who they are and how they behave.
Perhaps Sancho has had a reccuring issue with things like timekeeping but his numbers and performances at Dortmund were only rivalled by Kylian Mbappe in his age group. If he achieved this with persistent lateness and poor training then it just proves why the one-size-fits-all approach doesn’t work for everyone.
Moreover, you need to remember that, at a very young age, he left the comfort of his South London home to go live in digs first in West London, then Manchester and then Germany. This demonstrates that there is some mental fortitude, maturity and professional commitment inside of him.
These are the things that need to be harnessed to bring the best out of him. Maybe he needs more autonomy and independence? Maybe he needs to be freed from the shackles of micro-management? It’s also important to remember that much of Sancho’s generation clearly do not take too well to the disciplinarian / tough love approach adopted by both Jose and Ten Hag. Even Sir Alex knew this which is why he varied how he treated different players towards the end of his regime.
With regards to what you said about “hangers on” and so on… I don’t want to go all woke but, to me, it seems like an assumption has been made about his character because he comes from a, let’s say, “urban” background. Either way, I don’t think Sancho is a Nile Ranger or Ravel Morrison case and he’s far away from London where his “hangers on” are likely to be
The reason that there is an intense focus on United’s forwards defensive abilities is because we keep less of the ball and are forced to defend more whereas top teams generally don’t need their forwards to defend too frequently as they are predominantly attacking.
Even so, there are plenty of forwards / wingers who have others do the running for them. Let us just put aside the likes of Neymar, Cristiano, Kylian and Messi as they are on a different level.
But let us take City for example when they switch to 442 defensive shape. If Mahrez was starting on the right-wing, he would be part of the 2 up top because it is known that he has a low defensive workrate. KdB would then cover the full-back on the right.
By contrast, if it was Bernardo playing on the right-wing, he would be the wide midfielder in the 442 and he would cover the full-back on the right because he has more of a defensive workrate.
In a similar fashion, Real Madrid do this with Vini Jr when he is the left-winger. When the team is out of possession and goes into a 442 defensive shape, he used to stand next to Benzema on the forward line, where he would already be in a good position for the counter attack.
Another example is Liverpool. Salah and Mane would seldom track their full-back all the way back to their own box because they would be picked up by the wide midfielder, whether it was Henderson or Gini.
The top teams these days are all about hiding the flaws of their players and putting their strengths on show.
Sancho’s numbers as a teenager were better than Ronaldo and Messi combined. Perhaps he will not reach their level but it is clear that he has the talent.
1. Sancho has had some promising performances for United, albeit incosistently. He’s scored at the Bridge and the Etihad, and he has scored the opener vs. Liverpool that was the launchpad for Ten Hag after two losses in a row. Off the top of my head, he also dominated games vs Leeds away 2021/22 and Chelsea home 22/23.
2. Let me give a better example. Sir Alex wouldn’t treat Rooney and Nani in the same way if they made the same mistake because they are different personalities who react differently to being reprimanded. Rooney would get angry and go into beast mode if he got the hairdryer. Nani might cry and hide behind players. Nonetheless, Rooney and Nani still had their uses although one was more important than the other. So this flexibility is important. A more pertinent example would be, you wouldn’t hold McTominay and Sancho to the same standard. I hope that makes sense.
3. I covered this above. The best teams these days reduce the defensive workload of their forwards either through keeping possession or having a defensive shape that ensures players with low defensive workrate like Sancho, Mahrez etc. can stay up top. It’s all about building a team that hides the flaws and promotes the strengths of your players.
4. I’m pretty sure that Sancho set the Bundesliga alight before Haaland and Bellingham game. Either way, Sancho was primarily tasked with chance creation. Haaland and Bellingham aren’t particularly creative players and he regularly laid it on a plate for them. Nonetheless, there were players at BVB who bought the best out of Sancho. Hakimi and Guerrero as an overlapping full-backs made runs that opened up space for him and also enabled him to use his best qualities: vision and weight of pass. He also combined well with the likes of Julian Brandt and Marco Reus as they are very good at playing the sort of one-twos that Sancho likes. Sancho is a combination player. United lack these sort of players who can play in tight spaces beyond those who are gone or on the way out such as Donny, Fred and Martial. Our full-backs are not great at making runs either. The fact that Sancho hasn’t done great at United is less of an indictment on his quality as a player. Rather, it shows how we should never have signed him in the first place, because we do not have the players who bring the best out of him.
Been shit / not shit has no baring on whether he comes back from been exiled . I mean Antony is shit so do we exile him also. Your argument makes no sense .
And just so you know I never want to see Sancho play for the club again. He obviously doesn’t give a crap about the fans / badge/ the club or his team mates. Hope we get rid asap
Hes that good a player there was only Utd after him when we signed him. Get shut. If he hasnt learned his lesson at 23 he never will.
Our problem is not skill.
Our deadwoods in the past, players we loathe and cant wait to ship out turns out to be decent and actually can do a good job without much fuss. Players like Evans, Darmian, Blind, Smailing all are doing well in other club. I'm sure they will do just fine as squad players
The problem is a cancer that has been building post SAF where professional players are marginalized and forced our by primadonna who seems to be running the dressing room. Started with LVG contingent who has no working ethos and ruining the already built team ethics, followed by Pogba, and now Rashford and co.
As much as we dont like Ronaldo he was right in critizing the working ethics of our players
Until we fix that it wont matter which new player we bought.
Sancho push up is a blatant show of disrespect to professional footballer. Is just one example. Rashford sulking and jogging around. It's a matter of professionalism not technical
Our deadwoods in the past, players we loathe and cant wait to ship out turns out to be decent and actually can do a good job without much fuss. Players like Evans, Darmian, Blind, Smailing all are doing well in other club. I'm sure they will do just fine as squad players
The problem is a cancer that has been building post SAF where professional players are marginalized and forced our by primadonna who seems to be running the dressing room. Started with LVG contingent who has no working ethos and ruining the already built team ethics, followed by Pogba, and now Rashford and co.
As much as we dont like Ronaldo he was right in critizing the working ethics of our players
Until we fix that it wont matter which new player we bought.
Sancho push up is a blatant show of disrespect to professional footballer. Is just one example. Rashford sulking and jogging around. It's a matter of professionalism not technical
Yes.
First Martinez has been brilliant. Solame story with Erikswn
Onana's start has been over blown and his statistics prove he is one of the best keepers in the league. Not for getting he has the best in all Europe last season.
Second, Hojlund hit 5 goals in the UCL, theapex club competition in the game, inspite of being statistically the striker in the top 5 leesgues with the least supply from midfield and wide areas this season
Third, Weghorst, who was signed on loan thanks to the Glazers making us broke, enabled Rashford to be able to the best scoring career of his career to date. Heights he hasn't got near in his absence ironically
Mount has been injured since he put on our shirt. People can start telling he isng worth it when he actually starts playing regularly and flops.
Malacia and Amrabat were brought in as back up. Amrabat in particulararrivec injured and with no pre season. I'm willing to give him time to get up fo speed with the league. For he is obviously far from useless.
Heck Evans and Regullion who raised eyebrows when we bagged em are helping us stay float in the worst injury crisis we've had at United since SAF in about 2005/2006...
So yea. I trust ETH.
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Bingo. That is ALL we should care about
I think the issue is Sancho doesn't acknowledge those as things to rectify. If he has problem in timekeeping, he should take proactive steps to hire a personal bulter and chauffeur to ensure he reach the training place on time (if he has not yet done so). He is well resourced to do initiatives to change for the better but it seems like he jusy don't give a feck to that.
Want to know why the club is in this state? If only Sancho had half of Nani and Rooney's work ethic.
He may have had a case if he performs like Tevez and Hazard did in the PL, but Saka for example is already the better player and works much harder.
Sancho's just not that special. Deal with it.
good shout actuallyThat's just not true though. Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Villa, City, Newcastle, Brighton all have front lines that expect you to either press or play on the transition - sprinting for prolonged periods and big spaces.
That's just a mischaracterisation of Mahrez, you can look up his defensive stats. He doesn't track a full back all the way, but he did press properly. Again, Sancho does neither.
Again, Vini Jr still presses.
Salah and Mane didn't do that out of tactic, but they often got lauded when they sometimes did, because they were both willing pressers and defenders when necessary.
I agree, but no team builds their whole team around one player and his lack of defensive effort unless they're elite at what they do - which Sancho has shown he is not. That's why Messi, Neymar, Mbappe, etc are given a lot of rope. Not to mention - bar Mbappe, when they were 23, they all put in far more effort on the pitch than Sancho has ever shown.
Correct, and then you’ve got the discipline issues and lateness on top of that. Many reasons why he shouldn’t be kept.
All this stuff conveniently ignores the fact he was already 3rd choice in his favoured position and was playing himself out of any future at the club. Other than a few games here or there he’s been an insipid presence at the club for two and a half years. Now he’s sitting tight, hoping to outlast the manager. Get rid.
Tried him on the left
Tried him on the riiiiiight
Then even as a flase 9
But Jadon is shite
Tried him on the riiiiiight
Then even as a flase 9
But Jadon is shite
He's a bell end cut our losses.
If I could pick one United player for my team, it would be him. Sancho was outstanding at Dortmund and United should quesfion why he couldn't replicate those performances.
Because he's a wet paper bag of a footballer. He has zero fight and a poor attitude but was made to look good in the BL by the players around him. He's been average at best for both club and country. He can be an aesthetically pleasing player to watch - he's technically pretty good - but lacks the physicality, heart and attitude for him to succeed here.
Sancho does have a lot of time on his hands
That's not true. Sancho performed to an enormously high level at the Bundesliga. Over a period of 2-3 seasons, he performed at Robben- and Ribery-levels. That would already have been special in his prime but he accomplished that as a very young player. I'm not saying that he isn't to blame for his underwhelming spell at United but the notion that he never was that good to begin with is most definitely untrue. I think it is rather a case of a great talent joining a team in disarray that on top of that stands for a style of football that's incompatible with Sancho's and he then got caught in a negativity spiral that pivoted in his clash with Ten Hag. All in all a huge misunderstanding from both sides, start to finish. It was a terrible misjudgment on United's part to sign him and a terrible career decision by Sancho to join you. A bad fit on all levels imaginable.
Apparently, Dortmund treated him like a baby. Sending someone to wake him up from bed, take him to training etc. The bloke is thoroughly unprofessional. Dortmund can afford to do that because their entire model is about moving players in for big money. United can’t. Once we start taking that attitude as normal, we are finished.
Definitely an element of truth here but I genuinely think he lacks the physical and mental attributes to really kick on and be a top tier player. He had a good couple of years at Dortmund but has looked average in every other context (club and country).
The biggest problem is can we confidently assess any player at utd currently? I think Kane would look shite in any utd side of the last decade....
I think this is blown out of proportion. In general, players get pampered to unimaginable extents especially at top clubs. And Dortmund fined him for lateness a couple of times as well. It is not like they just accepted it. Plus punctuality is actually not the strong suites of various top players as well - Leroy Sané e. g. had problems with his punctuality all the time at Bayern. Some coaches are more strict with things like these, others aren't.
It is very early to make judgments like these. Over his refusal to apologize some seem to forget that Sancho showed some genuinely classy games for United as well. One way or another, we've only witnessed Sancho for BVB, United and England. To me, United and England are generally similar cases as Southgate isn't a good fit to Sancho's style of play either. He belongs in a possession oriented team that moves the ball around a lot in which he is surrounded with movement and possibilities for one twos or dribblings in tight spaces, not the typical kick and rush brand of football in which he has to take on his fullback one on one.
You might be right in the end, especially regarding the mental aspect, but you could also be proven wrong if Sancho joins a team like Barca or so which plays to his strengthes. There were rumours about him joining Leverkusen recently and I think he would totally flourish for us.
Yep, I also wouldn't be too surprised to see him turn out really well either. From what I've seen of him I think it unlikely but you could well end up being right. All of which is to say: he's yours for 120 million
If Sancho can only play well in the Bundesliga, then he should go back there.
@Zehner I'm interested in where you think he'd fit in your current Leverkusen set up. I've not seen loads of you guys, but I guess it would be either Wirtz or Hoffman?
Yep, I also wouldn't be too surprised to see him turn out really well either. From what I've seen of him I think it unlikely but you could well end up being right. All of which is to say: he's yours for 120 million
I fear that's not gonna happen, even for a reasonable price
That said I'm almost rooting for him to stay in England or go to Spain anyway so that the 'he can only do it in the Bundesliga' talk stops Kane has looked great in mediocre Spurs teams. Teams we've finished above. So I don't think that adds up.
The biggest and only problem with Sancho is Sancho.
The last thing ETH wants is to lose the use of a forward player when we're struggling for goals and assists.. So think how bad Sancho must be for ETH to make this decision. Not just this season but half a season last year as well.
I wasnt being literal, just making the point that not many players at Utd are easy to assess given the backdrop of the last 10 years. Players historically arrive here and get worse rather than better.
Yep, in the same way he thought leaving one of the most experienced centre halfs in the world on the bench was a good idea.
Sancho has some responsibility in this but not the whole of it and if performances are the basis of players being 'bad', best get a bigger bench.
Sounds about right. I do think the right manager/team could have gotten the best out of him. Anyway, right now this isn't a good look for either of them but I'm more disappointed in Sancho than ETH although I think a better man manager would have squashed this way before it became a thing....
We can confidently assess that he has a dogshit attitude, and doesn't deserve his wages. Get rid.
Totally agree. I’ve never viewed the Sancho saga as being solely a dispute between Sancho and EtH; Sancho acting the way he has is showing disrespect to the fans who help to pay his wages. If he cared about the club/ team/ fans then he’d find a resolution with the Manager; the fact that he doesn’t appear willing to do so means that he’s done in my book and I never want to see him play for us again. I want him back about as much as I want MG back.
Why doesn't that also apply to the manager? The managers ego means that an asset the fans have funded the best part of £100m is out of commission, and the club has to take a massive hit on even to get rid.
It does apply to the manager. It's not his fault Sancho is a tit.
And it's not Sancho's fault the managers just as big of a tit.
Good point and I agree that it does apply to the Manager. At this stage, this dispute does not reflect well on either of them but, and I appreciate that plenty of people may not agree with this opinion, I feel that Sancho over-reacted to what was a fairly innocuous criticism from EtH. I further feel that EtH appears to be trying to bring some much needed discipline to the squad and this sort of fallout is probably an inevitable consequence of that. However, my opinion remains that if EtH is shown the door then I don't want to see Sancho welcomed back into the fold as some sort of martyr.
As juvenile as this is, its also very true we have been waiting for 3 years for a run of games from him where he achieved good performances in a row and he hasnt been able to do it and he has been catered for in terms of postions and time off etc he has been a very bad signing, having talent is useless without the correct mentality and he just doesnt have it.
That’s just how our fanbase is. You’re only as good as your last game. If it ends badly for you, you were bad all along. It was like that with Ole (a lot of people forgot the good spells). There was also a lot of historical revisionism with Pogba and Martial. People make out like they were flops who were never that good in the first place but really they were part of inconsistent teams which, to some extent, they carried during various stages of their United careers.
This is what is happening with Sancho now. Posters are saying he was never that good, he was carried by Haaland and Bellingham, he has always been a bad professional and so on and so forth.
I even remember that when Di Maria was disillusioned at United people were saying that he only looked good because he had Cristiano, Bale, Benzema and Modric around him.
The reality is that post-SAF United has been a graveyard for talent. Players seem to regress here. Alexis came as one of the best players in the league and left a shadow of himself. The careers of promising talents like Martial, Pogba and Sancho stagnated. Di Maria hopped out quickly and recovered his career. I am absolutely certain that if a player like Rashford came through City’s academy rather than ours not only would he be more consistent, but he would have a far better football IQ.
The most upsetting thing for me is this focus on the attitudes of our players and them being scapegoated for creating a culture of slack and lack of professionalism and discipline. I just find it a coincidence that Pogba, Rashford, Martial and Sancho are all percieved to be unprofessional spoiled brats who are were uninterested in returning United to former glories. If it is not a coincidence, there can only be two common denominators here for us to ascertain a pattern.
Firstly, it is that they are from Afro-Carribean immigrant backgrounds raised in major European cities. This suggests that these communities inherently have a culture that is not conducive to professionalism (I strongly disagree with this notion, but I suspect that a lot of people imply it in a dogwhistle manner when discussing these players and the “culture” at United).
Secondly, it is that the structure and environment at United itself destroys these talents. Cristiano put it on blast already.
I would favour going with the second theory because even South American stars known for their work-ethic and professional commitment like Alexis and Di Maria floundered at this club.
If you can't get yourself to work on time and apply effort that's not down to any structural issues at the club that's down to the player and the player alone, in fact it probably means the club didn't do a proper due diligence in the player as there were rumours of BVB having to send a driver to make sure a player went to training on time I mean I work with 18/19 year olds that can get to work on time with no issues and don't need a driver to do so.
He was good for Borussia and he was that's undeniable but that was 3 years ago at some point you need to deliver now, it's a bit like United fans saying well we were a good side years ago so our performances now are ok because we used to be good.
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