Not to be Roy Keane here but that's a huge part of his job if you're going to play as a winger at a big club. Fans can forgive a wide forward for not getting many goals or assists if they're a phenomenal hard worker (think Park Ji Sung) but Sancho was putting in 15/20 goals for Dortmund once. His stats for goals and assists over the last 4 seasons have been really bad (for United, Dortmund and now Chelsea) and there's no hardcore work ethic to really endear him to fans either.I know these players, you don't need to describe them to meAnd all of them were either disappointments based on the performances they had shown prior to their United move or conducted themselves unprofessionally at some point (at least when held against the standard you set for Sancho by quoting Favre), some of them even both. I mean, you already admitted yourself that United has problems in regards to dressing room power and culture post-Fergie so I don't really understand the point you're trying to make.
And how many games have you seen of Sancho for Dortmund? To me, it feels as if most people judged his loan spell based on goal involvements although it was his playmaking that really improved Dortmund.
I haven't seen much of him at Chelsea but his highlights and advanced stats look at least decent.
Jadon Sancho - Chelsea (loan) watch | £5M opt-out fee
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
He is (and was during his loan spell) obviously nowhere near his form during his first stint in Dortmund and should be doing much better. But he was still one of their best players despite not scoring much, simply because he's always good at progressing the ball and creating space.
That’s shockingly poor.
Didnt he start very well at Chelsea? What happened then?
He settled back to his natural, underwhelming level of effort
It doesn't at all really, because I'm sure there are thousands of cases in football where a managers spoken to a player privately that they are not happy with their attitude/effort/application etc and they've responded. But we don't know about them because it was kept private as it should be. No reason to think that approach couldn't have worked with Garnacho as well.
The only thing it forced was a public drama and fed the negative news cycle that the British media love to churn out about Manchester United.
My point was if Ruben wasn't happy with Rashford, to the point where he wanted to loan him out or sell him asap, fine no problem. But he didn't need to be frozen out of the matchday squad when he was still training with the first team anyway. Keep him on the bench and use him as an impact/rotation player in the mean time. Then loan/sell him in January, as we did do anyway. Having him sit at home for 3 months not playing (while still being paid a massive salary) achieved the square root of feck all. No one will convince me a manager airing the clubs laundry in public ever leads to anything positive, doubly so for Manchester United where the spotlight is magnified and every story no matter how small is blown out of proportion by the press.
But anyway this is a Sancho thread, so I'm not going to engage in a long winded discussion about Rashford, Garnacho or Amorim here.
And likewise, how do you know if the mangers or Amorim in this case hadn't already talked to Garnacho and Rashford privately? Btw I'm pretty sure Amorim has implied or said he did.
This is the thing we just will have to fundamentally disagree on. You seem to think the media, fans and any 'public' drama will simply cease to exist or be minimised if the manager 'said nothing' and 'kept things internal'. That happened under the bubble of Fergie. I can't believe you've witnessed the past 12 years since and think it's that straight forward.
This is relevant because you believed a player like Sancho could have been salvaged, kept in the squad, quietly dealt with via a transfer and/or it would go away without scrutiny. Except now that Sancho has left and gone to another team, he's done feck all and it's still a media circus. Rashford has gone to play tentatively 'well' for Villa and the narrative is that he's back again, ignoring that he was completely shite for us. The point is that, there was always going to noise and it's the manager's prerogative to control/use it as they please. Keeping them in the squad whether you like it or not is a power play and again it's up for the manager to use to 'set standards' or whatever. Ultimately, whether it will prove to be 'right' or not is if the manager is successful. ETH failed and likewise Sancho failed to prove himself. We'll see whether Amorim and Rashford can show otherwise. However, to claim these public criticism doesn't have an effect or can't be used positively for the manager/club is naive.
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I know these players, you don't need to describe them to me
And how many games have you seen of Sancho for Dortmund? To me, it feels as if most people judged his loan spell based on goal involvements although it was his playmaking that really improved Dortmund.
I haven't seen much of him at Chelsea but his highlights and advanced stats look at least decent.
Really? Can you show me or show me any proof that the following had better performances prior to United?
1. Rashford
2. Garnacho
3. Janujaz
4. AWB
5. Hojlund
DVD and Antony were playing in the dutch league.
I watched about 5/6 games and it was the usual Sancho... Only in Germany would they judge a £70m player on 320k a week on "playmaking" and not numbers... I didn't realise playmaking does not involved numbers.
What kind of advanced stats do you look at in a winger?
I'm not sure how it was handled poorly. Multiple approaches was attempted, including sending him on a personal training camp while completely shielding him. One of our best paid players, one of the most expensive signings in the league, one of the best paid players in the league, sent on a fecking training camp so he can sort himself out mentally and physically, glorious.
Ten Hag's comments were innocent: "On his performance in training we didn't select him. You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United. You can make choices in the front line, so in this game he wasn't selected."
It wasn't a brutal damnation of Sancho as a player, it wasn't a character attack or anything. He simply hadn't trained well enough to be picked, the end. Plenty of far worse things have been uttered by other managers in the league, without it resulting in the player deciding to publicly call his manager a liar and pretending that there's some sort of agenda against him.
It's fairly obvious that the club and manager can't back down when the player has decided to launch a public statement like that. Sancho was given several chances to back down and it's not like he had to do a fecking tv interview, we're talking a simple tweet stating that he was disappointed by the statement and reacted badly to it yadayada everyone moves on. He was even given the opportunity to shake hands on it and have the club make issue a statement that Sancho had squared things with the manager and the issue was now resolved. But no.
Van Nistelrooy was spotted leaving the Millennium Stadium pitch early while his teammates continued celebrating their success but the forward was adamant at the time that there had been no falling out. He explained ahead of the Reds' next Premier League fixture that he was just disappointed to have not featured.
"The manager told me before the game that I wasn't playing," Van Nistelrooy said. "I was very disappointed but I could understand why he wanted to play Louis because he has been playing very well in the competition this season.
"You have to accept the decision as a professional player. There is no problem between me and the manager.
"I cheered the first two goals with everyone else on the bench and I was happy for the team. I've heard suggestions I was acting.
"Well, if I was, then I'm the best actor in Holland. I've scored a lot of goals this season and feel I've been playing well and I hope to be back in the team to play Wigan on Monday.
"I expect to play the league matches."
I said either their performances were better before United or they developed issues with their professionalism. The latter is true for Rashford, Januzaj and Garnacho. Wan-Bissaka and Hojlund were obviously better before their arrival. If not, younwouldn't have paid that muchnfor them.
I look at progression stats. Progressive passing distance, passes into the penalty box, successful dribblings, progrdssive carries, progressive passes received, expected assists, xGC (sum of shots after passing sequences the player was involved in in some capacity) and of course scorers, too. Sancho looks nowhere near his Dortmund times in those categories but still decent. Not even his scorers are terrible for a winger with a goal or assist ever 200 minutes.
And what's wrong with judging playmaking? Goals and assists are only the last or second to last touch before the ball passes the line. In so many goals, what happened before those last two touches has been the more important play.
Think it was a case of some people (fans, media, oppos) just really, really trying hard to wish “pre-United Dortmund” Sancho into existence, so that they could stick it even further to the club (& EtH).
He once played a simple 5 yard pass to Jackson on the halfway line, who ran through the stupidly-high West Ham backline (basically) unopposed and slotted it in. Sancho then got “an assist” which was used as part of the narrative of how well he’s settled and (probably) how United was actually the problem. I think quite a few of those early assists were just that (minus one excellent assist where he stepped over the ball and dummied the defender).
Granted I’m sure there probably was an added air of excitement and a little more “effort” from Sancho’s side because, well, he was finally “free” after all!
But for the most part, he started “ok”, but it’s actually been much of the same we got from him at United. Not influencing games enough. Drifting in and (mostly) out of games. Not sure if the effort levels have remained satisfactory at least.
No, I think you can ask every United fan and football fan in the world.. only you would say that Hojlund and AWB were worth the fees United paid. Everyone else, would tell you we were mugged off which was an issue with a lot of United signings, we paid more that what they were worth. Only you think those fees were justified because how good the players were before.
Right you are looking at shots etc… do you know Sancho hadn’t had a shot on goal for 3 months? Is that something you look for in your wingers?
https://fbref.com/en/players/dbf053da/Jadon-Sancho
Here is a link of his “advanced stats” that show his expected assists at 9th percentile, shot creating options at 63rd percentile, shots at 1% percentile, playing in an attacking team.
Yes, Sancho can keep the ball well and pass sideways and backwards.
https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...4-2025&player_id4=7aa8adfe&p4yrfrom=2024-2025
I compare 4 wingers in the league, where the player you said who had better performances prior to United (Garnacho) has better Xg, progressive carries, expected xG, xA, shots on target. He is only better at passing stats.
Look at defensive stats too, Sancho is in the lower percentile in every metric, from pressures, interceptions, challengers, tackles everything.
You are basically saying you look at passing only as a winger, you prefer not having a winger defend or have input in attack, as long as they can keep the ball right?
Reduce the benchmark to EPL and his stats look better. Top 14% for goal creating actions, top 9% even from open play. Top 9% for passes into penalty area, top 29% for key passes, top 27% in progressive passes, top 9% for progressive carries, top 9% for successful dribbles. As said, nothing special but decent, especially since Chelsea isn't exactly a team known steamrolling their opponents. And yes, I know that he haven't had a shot on target in 12 games or so.
Moreover, I never said that the fees were justified. You overpaid massively but you would never have become interested in them if they performed fof theirnprevious clubs the way they performed for you. Again, I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue because you already agreed that United has a cultural problem?
Can you show how many dribbles he takes on compare to others? again, you have showed passing stats, which I have said are good. So is that all you want from your winger? to be able to pass well, not attack or defend well?
Just because United paid a certain fee, doesn't mean that player was playing at that level. Its called paying for potential at times, thats how football works. Look at players like Tchoameni, Mbappe etc... when they got signed, they were not performing as 100m or 180m players at the time.
I mentioned United having a cultural issue at board level, does not excuse the immaturity of players like Sancho.
Hojlund had 1 year of football, he was giving WC performances before we signed him, neither was AWB.
AWB was actually not bad for us, he was not good enough, we should never have signed a RB that cant pass or play under pressure.
The reason Sancho fails is nothing to do with United and 10000000% to do with him and his stinky attitude.
Not sure what you want since I mentioned dribbling stats in there as well? He's top 9% in the two most important dribbling stats, successful dribbles and progressive carries.
On United having sharing none of the blame, we have to disagree. This looks fundamentally different from the outside. I think you've been terribly managed since Fergie left and that the Glazers, Woodward etc. turned you into a talent graveyard. That's why I was very skeptical about Sancho's decision to join you even before he joined you and I'll continue to be until you've proven otherwise.
No it wasn't. You paid what you did because Sancho was putting up monster G+A numbers for Dortmund. Those numbers were what made him such a highly regarded player
You must be the only person I know who thinks a wingers most important stat is successful dribbles and carries
.That too dribbless % successful, which doesn't even show how many he attempts compared to other top players.
Not with Sancho, I can accept blame at United for other players but Sancho is purely on him, no one else, which is proved by him being sh** at Dortmund on his loan spell and Chelsea.
But according to you he was so good at Dortmund last season that they decided that they didn't even come back to negotiate with United for another loan or transfer.
Other players were still part of a team that won a FA cup. Look at players with better mentalities, they tend to do well, i.e Bruno Fernandes.
I'd advise you to read the context before just taking a part of it assuming you know what the sentence was about.
No no i get it. My post was supporting your argument, such as it is. Though I think it's a bit of a pointless one since he's not arguing Sancho hasn't been a disappointment performing far below his cost, just that he's still doing a few things well.
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I never questioned sanchos fee, which was fine imo for what he was doing. Saying thats Hojlund and AWb were performing as per their fee before they joined, shows the type of understanding from some fans. Hojlund, Antony, AWB were never 72, 80, 50m players even before they came to United...
Actually he is, he said Sancho highlights and advanced stats look at least decent. Then he mentioned Sanchos passing as his only good thing.
Let me ask you, how many highlights of a player do you watch that only shows the passing and carries? Because other than that, he cant shoot, his Xga, Xa, whatever metric you want to use, he is terrible.
I dont think there is a fan base that wants to win a PL / CL that want their winger to be just good at passing. Defensively is one of the worst wingers, alongside attacking.
No see I agree with you on all of this
I don't, in which case then it can't be proven if the public route Amorim chose to go was the right one.
Ok.
I didn't necessarily to be honest. But whether or not I believe there's any chance of redemption for a player at United is beside the point. All I'm saying is if the manager has a problem with player X,Y or Z and wants them out, fair enough. I have no problem with that but it should be handled in a discreet manner without the need for public drama and feeding the negative news cycle that the British media love to churn out about United.
No worries but personally I think it's naive to think all this public drama achieves anything other than stroking egos.
I'd agree that Ten Hag's comments weren't that bad but if a player has to be sent away for 3 months because of mental health issues and/or a mentality problem in general. Then it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize he probably wasn't going to receive those comments after being left out of the squad in the spirit they were intended. Sancho clearly has a chip on his shoulder and serious attitude problems.
Cheers, I like that it seems both Ferguson and Ruud kept the argument and the swapping of insults on the bench a private matter. And both made vague non controversial statements publicly.
You must be the only person I know who thinks a wingers most important stat is successful dribbles and carries
That too dribbless % successful, which doesn't even show how many he attempts compared to other top players.
Not with Sancho, I can accept blame at United for other players but Sancho is purely on him, no one else, which is proved by him being sh** at Dortmund on his loan spell and Chelsea.
But according to you he was so good at Dortmund last season that they decided that they didn't even come back to negotiate with United for another loan or transfer.
Other players were still part of a team that won a FA cup. Look at players with better mentalities, they tend to do well, i.e Bruno Fernandes.
I didn't say that. There is not one single most important attribute. Different players impact matches in different ways. I've seen countless players who were far better than others in their positions who scored far more, simply because they were so good at stuff that didn't directly lead to a goal contribution. Goals and assists are terribly superficial metrics if you ask me and nothing goes over the eye test. The stats I quoted are just attempts to quantify said eye test.
But I don't think it makes sense to co tinue this discussion since we won't come to an agreement anyway, our perceptions of United and Sancho are too far apart for that to happen
No one ever said that period away from the team was due to mental health, that was just something people invented out of whole cloth to strengthen their argument that Sancho is somehow a victim. No one really knows the reason, maybe it was pure punishment for his behavior, maybe it was 3 months away unpaid, we have as much evidence to suggest that is the case as we have evidence to suggest it was due to mental health struggles. Maybe it was substance abuse, maybe it was an injury, maybe it was attitude, no one knows but assuming it was mental health because that is a stick you can beat Ten Hag with is just you conveniently filling in the blanks to suit your own personal narrative.
So much to unpack here. You say people invented things then just casually drop in the possibility he went due to substance abuse.
Not sure how you read my last post and thought I was painting Sancho as a victim.
It was widely reported that Sancho went to Holland for 3 months to work on Physical and Mental issues. Ten Hag was quoted as saying that or similar if I remember correctly. Plus if you read my post I never actually said he definitely went to Holland for mental health issues.
There’s not a snow balls chance in hell that break fee is 5m.
Because United have never made crazy deals before
That's a 20% penalty clause. How high do you expect a penalty clause to be?
So much to unpack here. You say people invented things then just casually drop in the possibility he went due to substance abuse.
Not sure how you read my last post and thought I was painting Sancho as a victim.
It was widely reported that Sancho went to Holland for 3 months to work on Physical and Mental issues. Ten Hag was quoted as saying that or similar if I remember correctly. Plus if you read my post I never actually said he definitely went to Holland for mental health issues.
That incident sums up the whole story pretty well, I think. Nobody knows what really happened. We know Sancho was in the Netherlands because of "physical and mental issues". That alone leaves much room for interpretation. It could have been a disciplinary measurement (as in laziness and unprofessionalism as mental issues leading to a lack of fitness) or it could be a mental illness such as burnout or depressions. Even if we knew what Ten Hag was referring to, we still don't know if that measurement was justified. For what it's worth, Ten Hag could have sent him there as a disciplinary measurement Sancho didn't agree with but comitted to only to call it "feck it, I won't have anymore of this" when Ten Hag called him out publicly again. But it could also be that Sancho really had mental health issues and Ten Hag gave him three months off to sort things out. You can't judge based on the few information available, yet people do it because they feel the urge to vent their frustration and disappointment.
In the end, we have a coach with a history of being thin-skinned and clashing with players in the one corner and a player with a history of slight unprofessionalism and speaking up to his manager in the other one. And it all takes place at a club in which either the dressing room or the manager holds far too much power ever since Ferguson retired, depending on who you listen to.
I think both have been true at various points post SAF. For the most part upto and including Ten Hag we gave managers way too much power over signings and squad make-up.
Comments by Maresca today screams that they won’t be signing him permanently. We’re stuck with this lazy POS. Ffs.
Chelsea manager Enzo Maresca says Jadon Sancho "could do better" but insists it is "not the moment" to discuss the player's future.
His comments follow reports the forward could return to Manchester United once his loan spell with the Blues is over at the end of the season.
The 25-year-old winger joined Chelsea on loan with a £25m obligation to buy but it has since emerged that there is a £5m penalty clause if they opt against signing him.
Sancho has scored just twice in 29 games since joining Chelsea and is on an 18-game goal drought in all competitions.
When asked if he wanted to sign Sancho permanently, Maresca said: "I'm completely focused about nine games, two months to go, I'm completely focused about that. Then what happens in summer, we'll see.
"The Jadon situation doesn't change. In terms of numbers, he could do better, no doubt. It is not just about Jadon but we have more players in the same situation."
His comments follow reports the forward could return to Manchester United once his loan spell with the Blues is over at the end of the season.
The 25-year-old winger joined Chelsea on loan with a £25m obligation to buy but it has since emerged that there is a £5m penalty clause if they opt against signing him.
Sancho has scored just twice in 29 games since joining Chelsea and is on an 18-game goal drought in all competitions.
When asked if he wanted to sign Sancho permanently, Maresca said: "I'm completely focused about nine games, two months to go, I'm completely focused about that. Then what happens in summer, we'll see.
"The Jadon situation doesn't change. In terms of numbers, he could do better, no doubt. It is not just about Jadon but we have more players in the same situation."
The One True (scape)GOAT
The Sancho saga really is the gift that keeps on giving.
The Sancho saga really is the gift that keeps on giving.
so is sancho gonna throw another hissy fit after those comments.
I didn't make any accusation, I just said it could be literally anything, because we don't know, and I gave some examples. You are the one inventing the fact it was mental health issues, because that puts him in a protected status, then no one can criticize him and you get to claim the moral high ground, because you are protecting a victim.So much to unpack here. You say people invented things then just casually drop in the possibility he went due to substance abuse.
Not sure how you read my last post and thought I was painting Sancho as a victim.
It was widely reported that Sancho went to Holland for 3 months to work on Physical and Mental issues. Ten Hag was quoted as saying that or similar if I remember correctly. Plus if you read my post I never actually said he definitely went to Holland for mental health issues.
We don't know what physical issues it could be, we don't know when mental issues it could be, we don't really know if Ten Hag was being completely honest and we don't know if Ten Hag was getting his point across accurately, as English isn't his first language, and he has said a number of things interpreted wrongly.
No I didn't, you'd need to read that post again mate. I didn't invent the idea Sanco went to Holland for mental health issues nor did I claim that was definitely the reason. I actually offered up several possibilities, much like yourself.
Yeah my last post really came across as protecting Sancho.
You are right there his English isn't great. Maybe he should have spent more of the 2+ years he lived in England working to improve it.
Scored at Spurs back in December so hopefully can do it again vs them tomorrow night. Come on Jadon, just do good enough to convince Chelsea you're worth keeping.
I have noticed he still starts most games for Chelsea. Considering they have a lot of wingers/ wide players. The manager must like him. I think as long as Maresca stays he still goes and we get the money . Big problem could be if he is sacked they might pay the fine or penalty
Getting the ball in a lot of dangerous posiitons, dribbles forward 5 yards with the defender retreating and 75% of the time, he turns back and plays it backwards. The other 25%, he comes inside on his right foot, easy to read and gets crowded out. Throws his hands in the air, rinse and repeat.