Jadon Sancho - Chelsea (loan) watch | £5M opt-out fee

[criticalanalysis]

All of which could have happened without having a public drama and freezing a player out for 2-3 months.

You've conveniently left out Garnacho, which proves going 'public' clearly does work/is not counterproductive.

As for Rashford, perhaps it could have but it may not have ended well for Amorim especially with the media PR train he was/is fighting against. In the games Amorim didn't play Rashford, we also didn't get any results. Do you really think the media and fans would have been totally fine with him saying 'player selection is an internal matter, no comment' game after game? It forced Rashford's hand and helped Amorim's narrative of talking about standards. As the manager of Manchester United, he's fighting behind the scenes and in front of the cameras. It shouldn't be the case but it is.

Fergie did want he wanted and no one questioned it because he was the club. Since then the bubble has burst and it's unrealistic to apply the same standards to other managers.

 

[Irwin99]

I know these players, you don't need to describe them to me And all of them were either disappointments based on the performances they had shown prior to their United move or conducted themselves unprofessionally at some point (at least when held against the standard you set for Sancho by quoting Favre), some of them even both. I mean, you already admitted yourself that United has problems in regards to dressing room power and culture post-Fergie so I don't really understand the point you're trying to make.

And how many games have you seen of Sancho for Dortmund? To me, it feels as if most people judged his loan spell based on goal involvements although it was his playmaking that really improved Dortmund.

I haven't seen much of him at Chelsea but his highlights and advanced stats look at least decent.

Not to be Roy Keane here but that's a huge part of his job if you're going to play as a winger at a big club. Fans can forgive a wide forward for not getting many goals or assists if they're a phenomenal hard worker (think Park Ji Sung) but Sancho was putting in 15/20 goals for Dortmund once. His stats for goals and assists over the last 4 seasons have been really bad (for United, Dortmund and now Chelsea) and there's no hardcore work ethic to really endear him to fans either.

 

[Zehner]

Not to be Roy Keane here but that's a huge part of his job if you're going to play as a winger at a big club. Fans can forgive a wide forward for not getting many goals or assists if they're a phenomenal hard worker (think Park Ji Sung) but Sancho was putting in 15/20 goals for Dortmund once. His stats for goals and assists over the last 4 seasons have been really bad (for United, Dortmund and now Chelsea) and there's no hardcore work ethic to really endear him to fans either.

He is (and was during his loan spell) obviously nowhere near his form during his first stint in Dortmund and should be doing much better. But he was still one of their best players despite not scoring much, simply because he's always good at progressing the ball and creating space.

 

[McTerminator]

There were no loan fee, united pay 100k per week of his salary. Obligation 20-25m depending on Chelsea table position. 5m clause to break from the deal.

Shit deal for us.

That’s shockingly poor.

 

[tenpoless]

Didnt he start very well at Chelsea? What happened then?

 

[Bowlcut11]

Didnt he start very well at Chelsea? What happened then?

He settled back to his natural, underwhelming level of effort

 

[stevoc]

You've conveniently left out Garnacho, which proves going 'public' clearly does work/is not counterproductive.

It doesn't at all really, because I'm sure there are thousands of cases in football where a managers spoken to a player privately that they are not happy with their attitude/effort/application etc and they've responded. But we don't know about them because it was kept private as it should be. No reason to think that approach couldn't have worked with Garnacho as well.

As for Rashford, perhaps it could have but it may not have ended well for Amorim especially with the media PR train he was/is fighting against. In the games Amorim didn't play Rashford, we also didn't get any results. Do you really think the media and fans would have been totally fine with him saying 'player selection is an internal matter, no comment' game after game? It forced Rashford's hand and helped Amorim's narrative of talking about standards. As the manager of Manchester United, he's fighting behind the scenes and in front of the cameras. It shouldn't be the case but it is.

Fergie did want he wanted and no one questioned it because he was the club. Since then the bubble has burst and it's unrealistic to apply the same standards to other managers.

The only thing it forced was a public drama and fed the negative news cycle that the British media love to churn out about Manchester United.

My point was if Ruben wasn't happy with Rashford, to the point where he wanted to loan him out or sell him asap, fine no problem. But he didn't need to be frozen out of the matchday squad when he was still training with the first team anyway. Keep him on the bench and use him as an impact/rotation player in the mean time. Then loan/sell him in January, as we did do anyway. Having him sit at home for 3 months not playing (while still being paid a massive salary) achieved the square root of feck all. No one will convince me a manager airing the clubs laundry in public ever leads to anything positive, doubly so for Manchester United where the spotlight is magnified and every story no matter how small is blown out of proportion by the press.

But anyway this is a Sancho thread, so I'm not going to engage in a long winded discussion about Rashford, Garnacho or Amorim here.

 

[criticalanalysis]

It doesn't at all really, because I'm sure there are thousands of cases in football where a managers spoken to a player privately that they are not happy with their attitude/effort/application etc and they've responded. But we don't know about them because it was kept private as it should be. No reason to think that approach couldn't have worked with Garnacho as well.

And likewise, how do you know if the mangers or Amorim in this case hadn't already talked to Garnacho and Rashford privately? Btw I'm pretty sure Amorim has implied or said he did.

The only thing it forced was a public drama and fed the negative news cycle that the British media love to churn out about Manchester United.

This is the thing we just will have to fundamentally disagree on. You seem to think the media, fans and any 'public' drama will simply cease to exist or be minimised if the manager 'said nothing' and 'kept things internal'. That happened under the bubble of Fergie. I can't believe you've witnessed the past 12 years since and think it's that straight forward.

My point was if Ruben wasn't happy with Rashford, to the point where he wanted to loan him out or sell him asap, fine no problem. But he didn't need to be frozen out of the matchday squad when he was still training with the first team anyway. Keep him on the bench and use him as an impact/rotation player in the mean time. Then loan/sell him in January, as we did do anyway. Having him sit at home for 3 months not playing (while still being paid a massive salary) achieved the square root of feck all. No one will convince me a manager airing the clubs laundry in public ever leads to anything positive, doubly so for Manchester United where the spotlight is magnified and every story no matter how small is blown out of proportion by the press.

But anyway this is a Sancho thread, so I'm not going to engage in a long winded discussion about Rashford, Garnacho or Amorim here.

This is relevant because you believed a player like Sancho could have been salvaged, kept in the squad, quietly dealt with via a transfer and/or it would go away without scrutiny. Except now that Sancho has left and gone to another team, he's done feck all and it's still a media circus. Rashford has gone to play tentatively 'well' for Villa and the narrative is that he's back again, ignoring that he was completely shite for us. The point is that, there was always going to noise and it's the manager's prerogative to control/use it as they please. Keeping them in the squad whether you like it or not is a power play and again it's up for the manager to use to 'set standards' or whatever. Ultimately, whether it will prove to be 'right' or not is if the manager is successful. ETH failed and likewise Sancho failed to prove himself. We'll see whether Amorim and Rashford can show otherwise. However, to claim these public criticism doesn't have an effect or can't be used positively for the manager/club is naive.

 

[romufc]

I know these players, you don't need to describe them to me And all of them were either disappointments based on the performances they had shown prior to their United move or conducted themselves unprofessionally at some point (at least when held against the standard you set for Sancho by quoting Favre), some of them even both. I mean, you already admitted yourself that United has problems in regards to dressing room power and culture post-Fergie so I don't really understand the point you're trying to make.

And how many games have you seen of Sancho for Dortmund? To me, it feels as if most people judged his loan spell based on goal involvements although it was his playmaking that really improved Dortmund.

I haven't seen much of him at Chelsea but his highlights and advanced stats look at least decent.

Really? Can you show me or show me any proof that the following had better performances prior to United?
1. Rashford
2. Garnacho
3. Janujaz
4. AWB
5. Hojlund

DVD and Antony were playing in the dutch league.

I watched about 5/6 games and it was the usual Sancho... Only in Germany would they judge a £70m player on 320k a week on "playmaking" and not numbers... I didn't realise playmaking does not involved numbers.

What kind of advanced stats do you look at in a winger?

 

[NotChatGPT]

My point isn't that Sancho was poorly treated my point is Ten Hag and the club handled the whole situation poorly. A drama played out in the media when it could have been quietly handled behind closed doors.

Out of interest what was Ruud's statement and when was it made. Do you have a link?

I'm not sure how it was handled poorly. Multiple approaches was attempted, including sending him on a personal training camp while completely shielding him. One of our best paid players, one of the most expensive signings in the league, one of the best paid players in the league, sent on a fecking training camp so he can sort himself out mentally and physically, glorious.

Ten Hag's comments were innocent: "On his performance in training we didn't select him. You have to reach the level every day at Manchester United. You can make choices in the front line, so in this game he wasn't selected."

It wasn't a brutal damnation of Sancho as a player, it wasn't a character attack or anything. He simply hadn't trained well enough to be picked, the end. Plenty of far worse things have been uttered by other managers in the league, without it resulting in the player deciding to publicly call his manager a liar and pretending that there's some sort of agenda against him.

It's fairly obvious that the club and manager can't back down when the player has decided to launch a public statement like that. Sancho was given several chances to back down and it's not like he had to do a fecking tv interview, we're talking a simple tweet stating that he was disappointed by the statement and reacted badly to it yadayada everyone moves on. He was even given the opportunity to shake hands on it and have the club make issue a statement that Sancho had squared things with the manager and the issue was now resolved. But no.

Van Nistelrooy was spotted leaving the Millennium Stadium pitch early while his teammates continued celebrating their success but the forward was adamant at the time that there had been no falling out. He explained ahead of the Reds' next Premier League fixture that he was just disappointed to have not featured.

"The manager told me before the game that I wasn't playing," Van Nistelrooy said. "I was very disappointed but I could understand why he wanted to play Louis because he has been playing very well in the competition this season.

"You have to accept the decision as a professional player. There is no problem between me and the manager.

"I cheered the first two goals with everyone else on the bench and I was happy for the team. I've heard suggestions I was acting.

"Well, if I was, then I'm the best actor in Holland. I've scored a lot of goals this season and feel I've been playing well and I hope to be back in the team to play Wigan on Monday.

"I expect to play the league matches."

 

[Zehner]

Really? Can you show me or show me any proof that the following had better performances prior to United?
1. Rashford
2. Garnacho
3. Janujaz
4. AWB
5. Hojlund

DVD and Antony were playing in the dutch league.

I watched about 5/6 games and it was the usual Sancho... Only in Germany would they judge a £70m player on 320k a week on "playmaking" and not numbers... I didn't realise playmaking does not involved numbers.

What kind of advanced stats do you look at in a winger?

I said either their performances were better before United or they developed issues with their professionalism. The latter is true for Rashford, Januzaj and Garnacho. Wan-Bissaka and Hojlund were obviously better before their arrival. If not, younwouldn't have paid that muchnfor them.

I look at progression stats. Progressive passing distance, passes into the penalty box, successful dribblings, progrdssive carries, progressive passes received, expected assists, xGC (sum of shots after passing sequences the player was involved in in some capacity) and of course scorers, too. Sancho looks nowhere near his Dortmund times in those categories but still decent. Not even his scorers are terrible for a winger with a goal or assist ever 200 minutes.

And what's wrong with judging playmaking? Goals and assists are only the last or second to last touch before the ball passes the line. In so many goals, what happened before those last two touches has been the more important play.

 

[Ish]

Didnt he start very well at Chelsea? What happened then?

Think it was a case of some people (fans, media, oppos) just really, really trying hard to wish “pre-United Dortmund” Sancho into existence, so that they could stick it even further to the club (& EtH).

He once played a simple 5 yard pass to Jackson on the halfway line, who ran through the stupidly-high West Ham backline (basically) unopposed and slotted it in. Sancho then got “an assist” which was used as part of the narrative of how well he’s settled and (probably) how United was actually the problem. I think quite a few of those early assists were just that (minus one excellent assist where he stepped over the ball and dummied the defender).

Granted I’m sure there probably was an added air of excitement and a little more “effort” from Sancho’s side because, well, he was finally “free” after all!

But for the most part, he started “ok”, but it’s actually been much of the same we got from him at United. Not influencing games enough. Drifting in and (mostly) out of games. Not sure if the effort levels have remained satisfactory at least.

 

[romufc]

I said either their performances were better before United or they developed issues with their professionalism. The latter is true for Rashford, Januzaj and Garnacho. Wan-Bissaka and Hojlund were obviously better before their arrival. If not, younwouldn't have paid that muchnfor them.

I look at progression stats. Progressive passing distance, passes into the penalty box, successful dribblings, progrdssive carries, progressive passes received, expected assists, xGC (sum of shots after passing sequences the player was involved in in some capacity) and of course scorers, too. Sancho looks nowhere near his Dortmund times in those categories but still decent. Not even his scorers are terrible for a winger with a goal or assist ever 200 minutes.

And what's wrong with judging playmaking? Goals and assists are only the last or second to last touch before the ball passes the line. In so many goals, what happened before those last two touches has been the more important play.

No, I think you can ask every United fan and football fan in the world.. only you would say that Hojlund and AWB were worth the fees United paid. Everyone else, would tell you we were mugged off which was an issue with a lot of United signings, we paid more that what they were worth. Only you think those fees were justified because how good the players were before.

Right you are looking at shots etc… do you know Sancho hadn’t had a shot on goal for 3 months? Is that something you look for in your wingers?

https://fbref.com/en/players/dbf053da/Jadon-Sancho

Here is a link of his “advanced stats” that show his expected assists at 9th percentile, shot creating options at 63rd percentile, shots at 1% percentile, playing in an attacking team.

Yes, Sancho can keep the ball well and pass sideways and backwards.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...4-2025&player_id4=7aa8adfe&p4yrfrom=2024-2025

I compare 4 wingers in the league, where the player you said who had better performances prior to United (Garnacho) has better Xg, progressive carries, expected xG, xA, shots on target. He is only better at passing stats.
Look at defensive stats too, Sancho is in the lower percentile in every metric, from pressures, interceptions, challengers, tackles everything.
You are basically saying you look at passing only as a winger, you prefer not having a winger defend or have input in attack, as long as they can keep the ball right?

 

[Zehner]

No, I think you can ask every United fan and football fan in the world.. only you would say that Hojlund and AWB were worth the fees United paid. Everyone else, would tell you we were mugged off which was an issue with a lot of United signings, we paid more that what they were worth. Only you think those fees were justified because how good the players were before.

Right you are looking at shots etc… do you know Sancho hadn’t had a shot on goal for 3 months? Is that something you look for in your wingers?

https://fbref.com/en/players/dbf053da/Jadon-Sancho

Here is a link of his “advanced stats” that show his expected assists at 9th percentile, shot creating options at 63rd percentile, shots at 1% percentile, playing in an attacking team.

Yes, Sancho can keep the ball well and pass sideways and backwards.

https://fbref.com/en/stathead/playe...4-2025&player_id4=7aa8adfe&p4yrfrom=2024-2025

I compare 4 wingers in the league, where the player you said who had better performances prior to United (Garnacho) has better Xg, progressive carries, expected xG, xA, shots on target. He is only better at passing stats.
Look at defensive stats too, Sancho is in the lower percentile in every metric, from pressures, interceptions, challengers, tackles everything.
You are basically saying you look at passing only as a winger, you prefer not having a winger defend or have input in attack, as long as they can keep the ball right?

Reduce the benchmark to EPL and his stats look better. Top 14% for goal creating actions, top 9% even from open play. Top 9% for passes into penalty area, top 29% for key passes, top 27% in progressive passes, top 9% for progressive carries, top 9% for successful dribbles. As said, nothing special but decent, especially since Chelsea isn't exactly a team known steamrolling their opponents. And yes, I know that he haven't had a shot on target in 12 games or so.

Moreover, I never said that the fees were justified. You overpaid massively but you would never have become interested in them if they performed fof theirnprevious clubs the way they performed for you. Again, I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue because you already agreed that United has a cultural problem?

 

[romufc]

Reduce the benchmark to EPL and his stats look better. Top 14% for goal creating actions, top 9% even from open play. Top 9% for passes into penalty area, top 29% for key passes, top 27% in progressive passes, top 9% for progressive carries, top 9% for successful dribbles. As said, nothing special but decent, especially since Chelsea isn't exactly a team known steamrolling their opponents. And yes, I know that he haven't had a shot on target in 12 games or so.

Moreover, I never said that the fees were justified. You overpaid massively but you would never have become interested in them if they performed fof theirnprevious clubs the way they performed for you. Again, I'm not even sure what you're trying to argue because you already agreed that United has a cultural problem?

Can you show how many dribbles he takes on compare to others? again, you have showed passing stats, which I have said are good. So is that all you want from your winger? to be able to pass well, not attack or defend well?

Just because United paid a certain fee, doesn't mean that player was playing at that level. Its called paying for potential at times, thats how football works. Look at players like Tchoameni, Mbappe etc... when they got signed, they were not performing as 100m or 180m players at the time.

I mentioned United having a cultural issue at board level, does not excuse the immaturity of players like Sancho.

Hojlund had 1 year of football, he was giving WC performances before we signed him, neither was AWB.

AWB was actually not bad for us, he was not good enough, we should never have signed a RB that cant pass or play under pressure.

The reason Sancho fails is nothing to do with United and 10000000% to do with him and his stinky attitude.

 

[Zehner]

Can you show how many dribbles he takes on compare to others? again, you have showed passing stats, which I have said are good. So is that all you want from your winger? to be able to pass well, not attack or defend well?

Just because United paid a certain fee, doesn't mean that player was playing at that level. Its called paying for potential at times, thats how football works. Look at players like Tchoameni, Mbappe etc... when they got signed, they were not performing as 100m or 180m players at the time.

I mentioned United having a cultural issue at board level, does not excuse the immaturity of players like Sancho.

Hojlund had 1 year of football, he was giving WC performances before we signed him, neither was AWB.

AWB was actually not bad for us, he was not good enough, we should never have signed a RB that cant pass or play under pressure.

The reason Sancho fails is nothing to do with United and 10000000% to do with him and his stinky attitude.

Not sure what you want since I mentioned dribbling stats in there as well? He's top 9% in the two most important dribbling stats, successful dribbles and progressive carries.

On United having sharing none of the blame, we have to disagree. This looks fundamentally different from the outside. I think you've been terribly managed since Fergie left and that the Glazers, Woodward etc. turned you into a talent graveyard. That's why I was very skeptical about Sancho's decision to join you even before he joined you and I'll continue to be until you've proven otherwise.

 

[giorno]

Just because United paid a certain fee, doesn't mean that player was playing at that level. Its called paying for potential at times, thats how football works.

No it wasn't. You paid what you did because Sancho was putting up monster G+A numbers for Dortmund. Those numbers were what made him such a highly regarded player

 

[romufc]

Not sure what you want since I mentioned dribbling stats in there as well? He's top 9% in the two most important dribbling stats, successful dribbles and progressive carries.

On United having sharing none of the blame, we have to disagree. This looks fundamentally different from the outside. I think you've been terribly managed since Fergie left and that the Glazers, Woodward etc. turned you into a talent graveyard. That's why I was very skeptical about Sancho's decision to join you even before he joined you and I'll continue to be until you've proven otherwise.

You must be the only person I know who thinks a wingers most important stat is successful dribbles and carries .
That too dribbless % successful, which doesn't even show how many he attempts compared to other top players.

Not with Sancho, I can accept blame at United for other players but Sancho is purely on him, no one else, which is proved by him being sh** at Dortmund on his loan spell and Chelsea.

But according to you he was so good at Dortmund last season that they decided that they didn't even come back to negotiate with United for another loan or transfer.

Other players were still part of a team that won a FA cup. Look at players with better mentalities, they tend to do well, i.e Bruno Fernandes.

 

[romufc]

No it wasn't. You paid what you did because Sancho was putting up monster G+A numbers for Dortmund. Those numbers were what made him such a highly regarded player

I'd advise you to read the context before just taking a part of it assuming you know what the sentence was about.

 

[giorno]

I'd advise you to read the context before just taking a part of it assuming you know what the sentence was about.

No no i get it. My post was supporting your argument, such as it is. Though I think it's a bit of a pointless one since he's not arguing Sancho hasn't been a disappointment performing far below his cost, just that he's still doing a few things well.

 

[romufc]

No no i get it. My post was supporting your argument, such as it is. Though I think it's a bit of a pointless one since he's not arguing Sancho hasn't been a disappointment performing far below his cost, just that he's still doing a few things well.

I never questioned sanchos fee, which was fine imo for what he was doing. Saying thats Hojlund and AWb were performing as per their fee before they joined, shows the type of understanding from some fans. Hojlund, Antony, AWB were never 72, 80, 50m players even before they came to United...

Actually he is, he said Sancho highlights and advanced stats look at least decent. Then he mentioned Sanchos passing as his only good thing.

Let me ask you, how many highlights of a player do you watch that only shows the passing and carries? Because other than that, he cant shoot, his Xga, Xa, whatever metric you want to use, he is terrible.
I dont think there is a fan base that wants to win a PL / CL that want their winger to be just good at passing. Defensively is one of the worst wingers, alongside attacking.