[romufc]

You are mixing up strategy (don't concede) and tactics (how not to concede) here, but otherwise I agree.

Either way, the tactics changed, Fergie played a 4-1-4-1, rather than 4-4-2, with players like Park and Fletcher coming in for those games.

Good players work well in most systems.

This is why you see some players work so well in a particular system and then put them in a different team, they look lost.

An example of this is Trent, the system is geared up for him, plays for England and cannot get a game.

 

[Zehner]

Either way, the tactics changed, Fergie played a 4-1-4-1, rather than 4-4-2, with players like Park and Fletcher coming in for those games.

Good players work well in most systems.

This is why you see some players work so well in a particular system and then put them in a different team, they look lost.

An example of this is Trent, the system is geared up for him, plays for England and cannot get a game.

You know there's a difference between systems, formations and tactics?

 

[romufc]

You know there's a difference between systems, formations and tactics?

yes, thats how I know that it wasn't "kick and rush".

United changed formations based on opponent, from 4-4-2 to 4-1-4-1
They changed tactics from being attacking to counter attacking football.

Oh and they used the same players for both.. What does that say about a player? They can adapt.

Instead of having players who can only play in one system and need everything around them to be perfect to shine.

 

[mctrials23]

That is simplistic ‘Pogba has a bad attitude propaganda’. Anyone can do anything on a football pitch then, by virtue of the fact that they ‘have legs’. As I said, even when Pogba is visibly making an effort defensively - he does it poorly. He does not tackle well, just as ‘110% effort Scott McTominay’ does not tackle well. Both are more likely to foul their man than win the ball.

With pressing, you need short, sharp, shuttle runs. Pogba lacks the ability to do that, he has low agility and has long strides as opposed to short ones. As a result - he is not good at pressing. Yaya Toure was not good at pressing. Marouane Fellaini was not good at pressing. Lukaku is not good at pressing. Peter Crouch likely would have not been good at pressing.

Anyone can try to press to the level required, but not every player can do it as well as others. As we can see but not every player doing it as well as others. The soundbite punditry age that we are in though would unsurprisingly just dismiss all of these players as simply ‘not wanting’ to press (well).

This is nothing to do with Pogba specifically and he was just an example that someone else gave that I was responding to. Of course there are players that are better at it than others but you can explain all you like that some players can't do it and I will continue to call BS on that. You don't have to to have a team full of world class pressing and tackling players to be able to press effectively. The level required isn't that high. When a player isn't even bothering to try, that isn't because they are incapable, its because they are unwilling or the manager has said they don't have to.

Most of pressing isn't being super agile, its making the right run at the right speed in the right place. You can't make an argument that player X cannot press when they don't even try.

The biggest part of a press is the teamwork. Its not a single player being superhuman, its a team press. The reason lots of teams don't do it is because it requires a lot of co-ordination and if it is executed poorly it can cost you. Teams that are far more limited in their personnel won't benefit as much from a press as a team that has highly skilled players ready to capitalise on the turnovers. Stoke could probably press but they wouldn't score that many goals from their turnovers and would leave themselves far more open to conceding goals themselves.

We saw in our first game under RR that a bunch of players who have almost no experience of pressing the opposition managed to do it reasonably well for about 35 minutes before their collective fitness gave out. Its not rocket science and its not something that can't be taught if a player is willing to put in the work.

 

[Rozay]

This is nothing to do with Pogba specifically and he was just an example that someone else gave that I was responding to. Of course there are players that are better at it than others but you can explain all you like that some players can't do it and I will continue to call BS on that. You don't have to to have a team full of world class pressing and tackling players to be able to press effectively. The level required isn't that high. When a player isn't even bothering to try, that isn't because they are incapable, its because they are unwilling or the manager has said they don't have to.

Most of pressing isn't being super agile, its making the right run at the right speed in the right place. You can't make an argument that player X cannot press when they don't even try.

The biggest part of a press is the teamwork. Its not a single player being superhuman, its a team press. The reason lots of teams don't do it is because it requires a lot of co-ordination and if it is executed poorly it can cost you. Teams that are far more limited in their personnel won't benefit as much from a press as a team that has highly skilled players ready to capitalise on the turnovers. Stoke could probably press but they wouldn't score that many goals from their turnovers and would leave themselves far more open to conceding goals themselves.

We saw in our first game under RR that a bunch of players who have almost no experience of pressing the opposition managed to do it reasonably well for about 35 minutes before their collective fitness gave out. Its not rocket science and its not something that can't be taught if a player is willing to put in the work.

Okay coach.

 

[Zehner]

yes, thats how I know that it wasn't "kick and rush".

United changed formations based on opponent, from 4-4-2 to 4-1-4-1
They changed tactics from being attacking to counter attacking football.

Oh and they used the same players for both.. What does that say about a player? They can adapt.

Instead of having players who can only play in one system and need everything around them to be perfect to shine.

The players can't only play in one system, they just suffer from playing without one. Especially if the rest of the team is on a whole different wave length. If you're a player that likes playing one twos, finding space, being patient etc. it certainly doesn't help playing besides team mates who rush every attack.

 

[VanDeBank]

Mate, you're on the wrong track, simple as that. The data you're referring to is flawed by definition because it is solely based on the pre-match assumptions of journalists and not corrected afterwards if need be. I've watched over 50 matches of Sancho for Dortmund and lost count how many times the broadcasters and tickers listed him as starting on the right but he was found on the left from the very beginning. If you want to get a precise image, watch the heat maps. And Sancho's are looking like this:

Bundesliga 19/20

Bundesliga 20/21

Champions League 20/21

I'm not making this up, he is better on the left and played more on that side of the pitch. As I said, Favre and Terzic played Reus out of position to make room for Sancho on the left and now Solskjaer and Rangnick played him on the left preferrably, too. Do you think this is coincidence? He is a LW and most likely sees himself on that side of the pitch as well. And it's only logical because his skillset is much better suited to cut inside having the ball on his strong foot. It was a very brief period in which he played on the right and THIS was actually as a right sided 10 in a 3-4-3 with Hakimi not vice versa. He even made his first appearances for Dortmund as a LW and had one season in which he started on the right most of the time - and that was ith a very dominant RWB who is not comparable to any player you have in your squad. And if the media you consume suggests something different, it isn't very accurate with its facts.

Thanks for the detailed overview.

It would be consistent with our transfer policy to sign a player for a position we're stacked in. On the basis of that alone, you're probably right

 

[romufc]

The players can't only play in one system, they just suffer from playing without one. Especially if the rest of the team is on a whole different wave length. If you're a player that likes playing one twos, finding space, being patient etc. it certainly doesn't help playing besides team mates who rush every attack.

The best players I have seen can adapt and do not require a certain system to excel in. Messi, Ronaldo have played in various different systems and excel.

Zlatan the same. I expect Haaland to be the same too. Sancho needs to adapt his game to suit the system.

 

[Zehner]

The best players I have seen can adapt and do not require a certain system to excel in. Messi, Ronaldo have played in various different systems and excel.

Zlatan the same. I expect Haaland to be the same too. Sancho needs to adapt his game to suit the system.

No, the best players you've seen played in systems that got the best out of them.

 

[johanovic]

Mate, you're on the wrong track, simple as that. The data you're referring to is flawed by definition because it is solely based on the pre-match assumptions of journalists and not corrected afterwards if need be. I've watched over 50 matches of Sancho for Dortmund and lost count how many times the broadcasters and tickers listed him as starting on the right but he was found on the left from the very beginning. If you want to get a precise image, watch the heat maps. And Sancho's are looking like this:

Bundesliga 19/20

Bundesliga 20/21

Champions League 20/21

I'm not making this up, he is better on the left and played more on that side of the pitch. As I said, Favre and Terzic played Reus out of position to make room for Sancho on the left and now Solskjaer and Rangnick played him on the left preferrably, too. Do you think this is coincidence? He is a LW and most likely sees himself on that side of the pitch as well. And it's only logical because his skillset is much better suited to cut inside having the ball on his strong foot. It was a very brief period in which he played on the right and THIS was actually as a right sided 10 in a 3-4-3 with Hakimi not vice versa. He even made his first appearances for Dortmund as a LW and had one season in which he started on the right most of the time - and that was ith a very dominant RWB who is not comparable to any player you have in your squad. And if the media you consume suggests something different, it isn't very accurate with its facts.

Of course Sofascore is better in stats than Whoscored and Transfermarkt but both of them have the same stats regarding Sancho.....funny that you claim that the the facts are wrong because journalist do not correct them. If he never played on the left how come he has 17 goals and 13 assists from the RW combinded for the 18/19 and 19/20 seasons compaired to 7 goals and 15 assists from the LW?

 

[Boavista]

Ok well I would speculate about the state of mind of anyone who genuinely thinks Rashford wouldn't score more goals than Werner in the Bundesliga. Or in Spain or on Mars.

I don't think it's a given at all that Rashford would score more than Werner did in 19/20, because that was an insanely productive season where everything came together for Werner such as a great manager and a team that clicked especially in attack. I doubt he himself would match that season again even if he had stayed in Germany.

So it's not really about who's better, but it's not as simple as saying Rashford is better so he would score more than 28 goals in the Bundesliga because that is a very difficult feat. That season was probably an anomaly for Werner, but his time in the PL somewhat too given that he still plays decently and gets on the end of plenty of chances. Just his conversion rate has been shocking.

 

[Jimmy.The.Hat181]

Time for him to kick on now, I'm looking forward to him playing regularly now.

 

[Zehner]

Of course Sofascore is better in stats than Whoscored and Transfermarkt but both of them have the same stats regarding Sancho.....funny that you claim that the the facts are wrong because journalist do not correct them. If he never played on the left how come he has 17 goals and 13 assists from the RW combinded for the 18/19 and 19/20 seasons compaired to 7 goals and 15 assists from the LW?

The videos aren't available in Germany. Anyway, he primarily played on the right side in the 18/19 season - that's his first season as a starter. 19/20 was pretty even with a slight preference of the left wing so it is only logical that he got more scorers from the right from 18 - 20 - after all he spent more time on RW in that time frame. But if we're talking about 19 - 21 it's a totally different story and if we consider his whole time at Dortmund it becomes even clearer since in 17/18 he was played almost exclusively on the left, too. 18-20 is pretty much the only timeframe spanning more than a season you could pick for your argument.

Moreover, you also have to look at the minutes he played. If you do, you actually see that his scorers per minute become better the more he played on the left.

20/21: Dortmund with a terrible start to the season; primarily on the left; goal or assist every 103 minutes. Only in the second half of the season: Goal or assist every 69 minutes.
19/20: Slightly more on the left than on the right, goal or assist every 67 minutes
18/19: First season as full starter, primarily on the right, goal or assist every 82 minutes
17/18: Debut season, almost exclusvely on the left, goal or assist every 137 minutes

As I said: I'm not making this up. I saw the majority of Sancho's games for Dortmund and he was clearly better on the left. I actually don't like just going by goal and assist stats since there is much more intangible stuff to all this (and Sancho is much better in the build up when played on the left side) but in this case it even shows in the productivity alone.

 

[johanovic]

The videos aren't available in Germany. Anyway, he primarily played on the right side in the 18/19 season - that's his first season as a starter. 19/20 was pretty even with a slight preference of the left wing so it is only logical that he got more scorers from the right from 18 - 20 - after all he spent more time on RW in that time frame. But if we're talking about 19 - 21 it's a totally different story and if we consider his whole time at Dortmund it becomes even clearer since in 17/18 he was played almost exclusively on the left, too. 18-20 is pretty much the only timeframe spanning more than a season you could pick for your argument.

Moreover, you also have to look at the minutes he played. If you do, you actually see that his scorers per minute become better the more he played on the left.

20/21: Dortmund with a terrible start to the season; primarily on the left; goal or assist every 103 minutes. Only in the second half of the season: Goal or assist every 69 minutes.
19/20: Slightly more on the left than on the right, goal or assist every 67 minutes
18/19: First season as full starter, primarily on the right, goal or assist every 82 minutes
17/18: Debut season, almost exclusvely on the left, goal or assist every 137 minutes

As I said: I'm not making this up. I saw the majority of Sancho's games for Dortmund and he was clearly better on the left. I actually don't like just going by goal and assist stats since there is much more intangible stuff to all this (and Sancho is much better in the build up when played on the left side) but in this case it even shows in the productivity alone.

Trying to have a conversation with somebodie about clear facts stated by both Transfermark and Whoscored and then not being able to look at videos that show precicsly where he has been playing is something I do not understand. But probably you and the highly respectecd Sofascore know better....Hopefully United will win today and I wish you a good weekend....yeah and you can not watch the youtube videos in Germany..right

 

[Hansi Fick]

Trying to have a conversation with somebodie about clear facts stated by both Transfermark and Whoscored and then not being able to look at videos that show precicsly where he has been playing is something I do not understand. But probably you and the highly respectecd Sofascore know better....Hopefully United will win today and I wish you a good weekend....yeah and you can not watch the youtube videos in Germany..right

I can attest that they are not available for German IPs, I assume due to image rights. I can't watch them either. (I'd be able to activate a VPN or proxy though if my life, or my dearest pet online football argument, depended on it)

 

[Gehrman]

Is the bundesliga so far below the PL that players look great there and turn to crap here or is it just a Man Utd thing where so many players end being painfully average?

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Is the bundesliga so far below the PL that players look great there and turn to crap here or is it just a Man Utd thing where so many players end being painfully average?

A bit of both I think. Is it any coincidence that the last two major successes to come from Bundesliga to Premier League were both at City (De Bruyne and Gundogan)?

 

[Gehrman]

A bit of both I think. Is it any coincidence that the last two major successes to come from Bundesliga to Premier League were both at City (De Bruyne and Gundogan)?

Probably not. It's not really untrue that we tend to ruin players. Can't think of anyone apart from Bruno who's really been a succesfull transfer.

 

[stefan92]

Is the bundesliga so far below the PL that players look great there and turn to crap here or is it just a Man Utd thing where so many players end being painfully average?

Has already been discussed in a lot of threads here, but I try to give what i think is a reasonable overview:
- In general the level in the PL is higher (everything else would be ridiculous given the amount of money involved)
- player performances depend a lot of how they adapt and fit different styles - which is true for any transfer, but might be more emphasized when moving between leagues
- transfers are a mixed bag all the time, there are those who simply perform slightly worse (like Timo Werner), those that perform a lot worse (like Sancho so far), decent players that massively improved in the PL (like Son) and also totally shit players who then look decent (like Emanuel Dennis)

So in the end you can't predict anything just due to the league, you have to look at the individual circumstances and even then it's hard to predigt how someone reacts to certain changes in his live.

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Probably not. It's not really untrue that we tend to ruin players. Can't think of anyone apart from Bruno who's really been a succesfull transfer.

No, it’s absolutely been true in recent years and that has to be down to poor coaching, surely. Plenty of players who went backwards after joining us - Pogba, Maguire, Wan Bissaka, Sancho, Van de Beek, Henderson, James, Fred, Lukaku, Sanchez, etc, etc and not that many who improved after getting here.

 

[AjaxCunian]

Has already been discussed in a lot of threads here, but I try to give what i think is a reasonable overview:
- In general the level in the PL is higher (everything else would be ridiculous given the amount of money involved)
- player performances depend a lot of how they adapt and fit different styles - which is true for any transfer, but might be more emphasized when moving between leagues
- transfers are a mixed bag all the time, there are those who simply perform slightly worse (like Timo Werner), those that perform a lot worse (like Sancho so far), decent players that massively improved in the PL (like Son) and also totally shit players who then look decent (like Emanuel Dennis)

So in the end you can't predict anything just due to the league, you have to look at the individual circumstances and even then it's hard to predigt how someone reacts to certain changes in his live.

Can we pin this post somewhere.

 

[Zehner]

Trying to have a conversation with somebodie about clear facts stated by both Transfermark and Whoscored and then not being able to look at videos that show precicsly where he has been playing is something I do not understand. But probably you and the highly respectecd Sofascore know better....Hopefully United will win today and I wish you a good weekend....yeah and you can not watch the youtube videos in Germany..right

You really are a guy who likes to do the necessary research before he forms his opinion, do you?

I don't think this makes ay sense. You're clearly too "naive" to recognize your own incompetence. Be it regarding Sancho or IP locks on YouTube. I'd tell you that I'm not going to install a VPN just to prove a point to you but I doubt you'd even understand what that is. Moreover, you'd probably just come up with another conspiracy theory so that you don't have to admit you were wrong.

 

[Hansi Fick]

You really are a guy who likes to do the necessary research before he forms his opinion, do you?

I don't think this makes ay sense. You're clearly too "naive" to recognize your own incompetence. Be it regarding Sancho or IP locks on YouTube. I'd tell you that I'm not going to install a VPN just to prove a point to you but I doubt you'd even understand what that is. Moreover, you'd probably just come up with another conspiracy theory so that you don't have to admit you were wrong.

Going after my award, are you? You're in for a challenge mister, you can pry it from my greasy, keyboard smacking hands.

 

[johanovic]

You really are a guy who likes to do the necessary research before he forms his opinion, do you?

I don't think this makes ay sense. You're clearly too "naive" to recognize your own incompetence. Be it regarding Sancho or IP locks on YouTube. I'd tell you that I'm not going to install a VPN just to prove a point to you but I doubt you'd even understand what that is. Moreover, you'd probably just come up with another conspiracy theory so that you don't have to admit you were wrong.

Conspiracy theory...is stating facts backed up by 2 of the best statistical sites and backed up by a video a conspiracy theory? Ok mate you are cleary ways ahead of me and of course it´s sensless to try to talk to you...you are a typical person that wades into the person when you have been shown as having nothing to back up your claims...but trying to have a conversation based on facts is becoming almost impossible....perhaps somebody that has access to the modern world through a VPN can assist you.....You claim to know better then the staff at Whoscored and Transfermarkt and try to avoid having a look at the videos...I have no problem despite being the "navie" person you claim me to be to admit when I´m wrong..but when I´m right and the facts back that up I do not cave in to person that claim something and have no facts to back it up

 

[Bebestation]

We didn't buy him to be our LW or LAM.

We bought him to be our RW.

The fact that this move happened and Greenwood suddenly got moved from ST to our no 1 RW shows what problem Sancho has had to deal with at United.

Both his goals have been more on the RW than left and I'm not surprised.

​

Hopefully now Greenwood has f*kd up, Sancho can go back to being our RW again.

​

 

[lost7]

Good performance, the best on the front line

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Threads pretty quiet. Felt he did really well tonight. Unlucky with his chipped effort at the start of the game and despite a bit of a deflection, I felt the way he went at his player was positive, and as a result, got his rewards with the goal.

Just felt his whole general play was better, too. A couple of nice through balls down the sides - the type we so often saw him play to Haaland at Dortmund.

Hopefully just cramp at the end because I'd like to see him build on that performance.

 

[Swiss_Red89]

Very good performance. Need him on form for the second part of the season and today was a good start.

 

[AjaxCunian]

He's clearly a special player and much quicker than he receives credit for. More of the same.

 

[littlepeasoup]

Both him and Rashford looked better when playing out as wide as possible stretching the play, but he was also very good at coming inside and exploiting space.

Probably should have had at least an assist from Rashford’s chance. Starting to see the player we saw in Germany.

 

[always_hoping]

I'd like to hear the reason why he was left on for 9 minutes longer than he should when he was clearly injured.

 

[Glorio]

Hope he's not injured. After Pogba went off and then he started cramping up, we appeared to lose all attacking cohesion.

 

[Marwood]

His best game but I can't shift this feeling he's a bit soft.

 

[Guapa]

There's a player in there somewhere but needs to start showing it consistently.He's gonna get a lot of game time now so it's time to show up.

Ralf clearly making a point by keeping him on for extra time that this is the level of commitment needed at this club in this league.

Time to man up.

 

[lsd]

I'd like to hear the reason why he was left on for 9 minutes longer than he should when he was clearly injured.

I can only hope it was cramp and not a ham string injury

 

[Frank Grimes]

A wonderful talent, played well. That ball he gave to Rashford in second half was sublime.
Hopefully his injury isn't too serious.

 

[Irwin99]

I was impressed with his work rate as well as his creativity. Hopefully settling in.

 

[sillwuka]

Better performance, you can tell he finds it much easier when he has space to operate in.

Can't beat a defender 1v1 though.

 

[Devil may care]

Good 70 minutes, he's quick footed with a great awareness and acute weight of pass, hopefully leaving him on for the start of extra time when he was clearly hurting hasn't done damage and it was just cramp.

 

[MyBloodIsRed]

Thought he played well tonight. Nice goal and unlucky on the chip.