Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Do you also hear about the rockets from Gaza (>60 over the last couple of days), mortars from Syria and shooting from Lebanon? How about the latest intercepted shipment of 150kg-warhead missiles from Iran to PIJ? An Israel patrol was attacked on our northern border earlier this evening too.

There will be an escalation, little doubt about that. Only question is when, and whether it can be contained (depending on number of civilian casualties).
 
holyland red said:
Do you also hear about the rockets from Gaza (>60 over the last couple of days), mortars from Syria and shooting from Lebanon? How about the latest intercepted shipment of 150kg-warhead missiles from Iran to PIJ? An Israel patrol was attacked on our northern border earlier this evening too.

There will be an escalation, little doubt about that. Only question is when, and whether it can be contained (depending on number of civilian casualties).
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All of those were responses (except the ship joke). Israel bombed Syria and Lebanon multiple times before the response yesterday (which is why Israel was actually preparing itself for retaliation). Israel also killed a few Palestinians lately.

Are we trying to re-write the history already?

It also threatened Iran many times, when the talks were still going and even when a deal was reached, and actually criticized and pressured the world intensely not to pursue diplomacy with Iran, and bomb them instead.
 
NewDawnFades said:
Small but significant steps forward in recent weeks in my opinion. John Kerry using the term apartheid gave us a glimpse of what Israel's closest allies really think, and by the sounds of the things the Obama Administration has grown tired of the Netanyahu's open racism. Once the US steps back the voice of the international community will be heard.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/us-officials-even-if-israel-doesnt-like-it-palestinians-will-get-state/
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The US will never step away from them, its a pipe dream.
 
holyland red said:
Independence day celebrations start in 50 minutes.

Congratulations, Israel!
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On a serious (not trying to be controversial) note, how is it Independence? If I'm being stupid, just say it and I'll go away. Per my history texts in school, a new country was created. That isn't really independence is it?

If I'm opening a can of worms, just tell me that and I'll go read up on it.
 
NM said:
On a serious (not trying to be controversial) note, how is it Independence? If I'm being stupid, just say it and I'll go away. Per my history texts in school, a new country was created. That isn't really independence is it?

If I'm opening a can of worms, just tell me that and I'll go read up on it.
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Not sure what textbooks you were reading but Israel really isn't a new country. Quite the opposite in fact, having existed as an independent state under the same name with Jerusalem as the capital city already three thousand years ago. It's more of a re-establishment rather than the creation of a new state. The Declaration of Independence itself speaks of "the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate".

It also sounds a much better phrase than some Declaration of Establishment or whatever ;)
 
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why are Israel being so antagonistic towards Palestinians? If I were an Israeli politician I'd want to see a peaceful settlement and then huge investment and co-operation to foster an alliance and a strong friendship. Their position would be so much more secure if they could bring countries like Lebanon, (Palestine), Jordan and Egypt onside by friendly co-operation, would it not? How would Iran and Syria justify a continuing guerrilla war if their own Arab comrades were happy with the Israel situation?
 
eddiebigballs said:
Their position would be so much more secure if they could bring countries like Lebanon, (Palestine), Jordan and Egypt onside by friendly co-operation, would it not? How would Iran and Syria justify a continuing guerrilla war if their own Arab comrades were happy with the Israel situation?
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The Arab nations don't care for their 'comrades', not least Iran.
 
But they use Israeli (and by extension American) bullying as a big part of their justification, don't they? If that all of a sudden not only didn't exist but actually became a genuinely positive relationship, how could they justify being against it?
 
eddiebigballs said:
But they use Israeli (and by extension American) bullying as a big part of their justification, don't they? If that all of a sudden not only didn't exist but actually became a genuinely positive relationship, how could they justify being against it?
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In truth, most Arab nations secretly have no qualm with Israel, privately that is. The Qataris for example will officially fail to recognise the state, though are more than willing to engage in diplomatic and economic initiatives behind closed doors. Same can be said for almost all Gulf Arab states. The Jordanians and Egyptians have already declared peace with Israel.

The most divisive issue for the Arab world however is not Israel, but rather the sectarian divide. The Middle East for the most part is engulfed in a Sunni-Shia power struggle with the Gulf Arab states on one side, and the Iranians with their Syrian/Iraqi/Lebanese proxies on the other. Both sides constantly pathetically accuse each other of associating with the stigmatic entity of Israel as a means of coming across more self-righteous while discrediting the other. Peace and reconciliation with Israel doesn't suit them as much as it doesn't suit Israel with their own expansionist agenda.

Essentially, its a giant clusterfeck with millions of decent Arabs, Persians and Israelis caught in the crossfire.
 
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eddiebigballs said:
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but why are Israel being so antagonistic towards Palestinians? If I were an Israeli politician I'd want to see a peaceful settlement and then huge investment and co-operation to foster an alliance and a strong friendship. Their position would be so much more secure if they could bring countries like Lebanon, (Palestine), Jordan and Egypt onside by friendly co-operation, would it not? How would Iran and Syria justify a continuing guerrilla war if their own Arab comrades were happy with the Israel situation?
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Iranians aren't Arabs, so I don't think that'll do much.
 
Iran cares as much about the opinion of the Arabs in the Middle East, as the Russians do about Poland's, Lithuania's and Finland's opinion before meddling in Ukraine. Only exclusion being the Shia in Palestine, Lebanon and Syria.
 
Kaos said:
In truth, most Arab nations secretly have no qualm with Israel, privately that is. The Qataris for example will officially fail to recognise the state, though are more than willing to engage in diplomatic and economic initiatives behind closed doors. Same can be said for almost all Gulf Arab states. The Jordanians and Egyptians have already declared peace with Israel.

The most divisive issue for the Arab world however is not Israel, but rather the sectarian divide. The Middle East for the most part is engulfed in a Sunni-Shia power struggle with the Gulf Arab states on one side, and the Iranians with their Syrian/Iraqi/Lebanese proxies on the other. Both sides constantly pathetically accuse each other of associating with the stigmatic entity of Israel as a means of coming across more self-righteous while discrediting the other. Peace and reconciliation with Israel doesn't suit them as much as it doesn't suit Israel with their own expansionist agenda.

Essentially, its a giant clusterfeck with millions of decent Arabs, Persians and Israelis caught in the crossfire.
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Good post but it must be pointed out that the only reason why Arab nations have no qualms with Israel is because they know they can not wipe it out using their military. They already tried once and failed and it is not feasible on any level to try again.
 
crappycraperson said:
Good post but it must be pointed out that the only reason why Arab nations have no qualms with Israel is because they know they can not wipe it out using their military. They already tried once and failed and it is not feasible on any level to try again.
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Is that the only reason based on your intimate knowledge of how Arabs feel and think?
 
lem8sh said:
A bit like a thief throwing a party after stealing his neighbours house.
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Just to clarify, the Jews are the stealing thieves in your analogy, who by accepting the partition plan in 1948 stole Palestinian land?
 
Mihajlovic said:
Just to clarify, the Jews are the stealing thieves in your analogy, who by accepting the partition plan in 1948 stole Palestinian land?
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Convenient not to mention that for years before 1948 they were terrorising many Arab villages causing many Arabs to flee their houses.
 
Tim Henman said:
Convenient not to mention that for years before 1948 they were terrorising many Arab villages causing many Arabs to flee their houses.
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Equally convenient not to mention that land was also purchased legally and that Arabs were terrorising and murdering Jews. The fact remains that both parties were offered a state, the Jewish cut-out probably being the shittier one, but they took it, nevertheless.

The Arab refusal to claim their state was most likely the single biggest mistake they have ever made.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Equally convenient not to mention that land was also purchased legally and that Arabs were terrorising and murdering Jews. The fact remains that both parties were offered a state, the Jewish cut-out probably being the shittier one, but they took it, nevertheless.

The Arab refusal to claim their state was most likely the single biggest mistake they have ever made.
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Except that the Jews that terrorised in this case were from all over the world coming to create problems and, yep, steal land and villages that weren't theirs. I am assuming you're Serbian judging from your name, so not sure what your battle is here… But consider this.. You had Jews coming from halfway across the world terrorising Arabs to leave their villages. This would have been the equivalent to Arabs from Morocco heading all the way to Palestine to burn Jewish homes and threaten them into leaving.

This happened before the UN partition plan which you used to justify the taking of that land. So, yes, I think it is fair to consider it stealing or at least an attempt at stealing before that land was given to them by a third party that didn't inhabit that land.
 
Tim Henman said:
Except that the Jews that terrorised in this case were from all over the world coming to create problems and, yep, steal land and villages that weren't theirs. I am assuming you're Serbian judging from your name, so not sure what your battle is here… But consider this.. You had Jews coming from halfway across the world terrorising Arabs to leave their villages. This would have been the equivalent to Arabs from Morocco heading all the way to Palestine to burn Jewish homes and threaten them into leaving.

This happened before the UN partition plan which you used to justify the taking of that land. So, yes, I think it is fair to consider it stealing or at least an attempt at stealing before that land was given to them by a third party that didn't inhabit that land.
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Judging by your name you're British, so I'm not sure what your battle is either. Your view that Jews "were from all over the world coming to create problems" would only make sense on a planet that has never heard of the phenomenon of anti-Semitism. Sure, successful and affluent Jewish merchants, doctors and lawyers from Vienna and Warsaw were dying to leave everything behind and go to some piece of crap desert and fight Arabs in 40C heat. The ultimate Zionist dream!

Independent states were given to Jews and Arabs by a third party, so? That was more than the Arabs ever got offered under the Ottomans, they didn't take it and blew it. The Jews on the other hand seized an historic opportunity to reclaim and re-establish their state on land which they inhabited since the big bang.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Judging by your name you're British, so I'm not sure what your battle is either. Your view that Jews "were from all over the world coming to create problems" would only make sense on a planet that has never heard of the phenomenon of anti-Semitism. Sure, successful and affluent Jewish merchants, doctors and lawyers from Vienna and Warsaw were dying to leave everything behind and go to some piece of crap desert and fight Arabs in 40C heat. The ultimate Zionist dream!

Independent states were given to Jews and Arabs by a third party, so? That was more than the Arabs ever got offered under the Ottomans, they didn't take it and blew it. The Jews on the other hand seized an historic opportunity to reclaim and re-establish their state on land which they inhabited since the big bang.
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Actually, I am Lebanese of Palestinian origin. The reason I have to say I am Lebanese is because I wasn't offered the opportunity to grow up where 5 generations (on both sides of my family) had because one left before 1948 because of reasons stated above (fearing for safety), and the other left after 1948.

LOL at some piece of crap desert. A lot of that area is some of the most beautiful in the world, particularly that on the coast. The idea of Jewish migration there began long before the holocaust my friend. Silly to blame it solely on that. Anyway, we can do this to death. It's been done to death. At this stage no one will change anyone else's opinion.
 
Tim Henman said:
Except that the Jews that terrorised in this case were from all over the world coming to create problems and, yep, steal land and villages that weren't theirs. I am assuming you're Serbian judging from your name, so not sure what your battle is here… But consider this.. You had Jews coming from halfway across the world terrorising Arabs to leave their villages. This would have been the equivalent to Arabs from Morocco heading all the way to Palestine to burn Jewish homes and threaten them into leaving.

This happened before the UN partition plan which you used to justify the taking of that land. So, yes, I think it is fair to consider it stealing or at least an attempt at stealing before that land was given to them by a third party that didn't inhabit that land.
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Be honest here, you're in this human rights business for the chicks, aren't you?
 
Tim Henman said:
Actually, I am Lebanese of Palestinian origin. The reason I have to say I am Lebanese is because I wasn't offered the opportunity to grow up where 5 generations (on both sides of my family) had because one left before 1948 because of reasons stated above (fearing for safety), and the other left after 1948.

LOL at some piece of crap desert. A lot of that area is some of the most beautiful in the world, particularly that on the coast. The idea of Jewish migration there began long before the holocaust my friend. Silly to blame it solely on that. Anyway, we can do this to death. It's been done to death. At this stage no one will change anyone else's opinion.
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Is your family from Haifa by any chance? Where did your ancestors live before immigrating to Palestine?
 
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holyland red said:
Is your family from Haifa by any chance? Where did your ancestors live before immigrating to Palestine?
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I actually don't know to be honest.. My family is split between Jerusalem on my father's side and Ashkalon and Gaza on my mother's side. To be honest we are atrocious with our family tree and the only reason we know that five generations have lived in those cities is because my parents knew their great grandparents because of how young everyone had kids back then. For all I know it could go back much further. It has actually never occurred to me to find out where my father's family originated although the idea interests me come to think of it.
 
Tim Henman said:
Actually, I am Lebanese of Palestinian origin. The reason I have to say I am Lebanese is because I wasn't offered the opportunity to grow up where 5 generations (on both sides of my family) had because one left before 1948 because of reasons stated above (fearing for safety), and the other left after 1948.

LOL at some piece of crap desert. A lot of that area is some of the most beautiful in the world, particularly that on the coast. The idea of Jewish migration there began long before the holocaust my friend. Silly to blame it solely on that. Anyway, we can do this to death. It's been done to death. At this stage no one will change anyone else's opinion.
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Oh great another one...
 
Tim Henman said:
Well how did you expect me to take "Oh great another one…." Not particularly the most welcoming comment of all time.
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Indeed my apologies, let me rephrase that: Welcome up from the newbies :)

(Probably should have mentioned we are of the same ilk, but there you go)
 
Kaos said:
Indeed my apologies, let me rephrase that: Welcome up from the newbies :)

(Probably should have mentioned we are of the same ilk, but there you go)
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No worries. Thanks! Surprised to hear that there are many fellow Lebanese on here. I guess the caf is truly international.
 
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