Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

shamans said:
You come across as a simpleton if you only see things with the lens of justification -- "rightful" and "not rightful" while I'm pointing out how it's being framed. As if the rockets are now a step too far compared to everything that's been happening.
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As I said, I have nothing to say to you.
 
2cents said:
My problem with the maps is that only in the last one does the green section represent "Palestinian Land", and even this one requires further explanation. The other maps depict quite different values, none of them the same.

The first map purports to show “Jewish settlements" in white, but the green is actually "everything else". It's very hard to know just how much of the green in this map was "Palestinian Land" in the same sense the white is supposed to signify “Jewish land.” Much of it was uncultivated empty desert and hill country owned by nobody. A lot of land was owned by relatively few major Arab landowners who leased to Arab workers. Some was owned by other foreigners, religious endowments, etc. In any case the Jewish-Arab population ratio at this point (1947) was roughly 1:2.

The second map shows the paritition plan proposed by the UN in 1947. Here, the green section depicts the proposed Palestinian state, which the Palestinians rejected, and the white the proposed Jewish state. The Jews didn’t fully commit either way, and both sides went to war pretty much immediately. This map never represented any reality on the ground.

The third map depicts the result of that war. Here, the green sections actually represent territory conquered and occupied by Egypt and Jordan in the course of the war - Gaza by the Egyptians, the West Bank by the Jordanians. These green sections were subsequently conquered by Israel in 1967.

Finally, the fourth map, which apparently shows for the first time "Palestinian land”, although it’s not entirely clear if this refers to sovereignty or ownership - you can’t speak of Palestinian sovereignty in the West Bank (under occupation) or Gaza (under blockade), but ownership is problematic in its own way here.

This is not to deny that the Jews were a minority and became a majority (and through their state the sovereign power) in the land, or to deny the settlement process since 1967. But these maps in the way they are presented are not a reliable guide to the process that brought things to where they are.
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neverdie said:
No, they are illustrative of large-scale change over time. For a guide to the processes which brought it about you'd be best to delve into historiography. Having said that, if you look at those maps it's pretty impossible to deny that the state of Israel post-47 (or 48) is anything other than an exercise in colonialism. Particulary with regard to the continued occupation of the West Bank.

The basic point is control of land, not population within the land controlled. Whilst Palestinian land was often very tribal in areas, as you'll know, the basic premise holds.

The problem with academia sometimes is that it becomes too bogged down in minutia of processes to the extent that it tends to fetishize small details over the very basic and visceral picture. Sometimes it is important to go through every part of every stage but other times the process just tends to obscure and almost excuse. History ought to be better at its narrative aspect rather than draw equivalences everywhere. Not that you do, but you see it quite generally.
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Agreed - I also think @2cents ratio is a little off.

From 1945 to 1949, land control in the area went from 94% in Arab hands and 6% in Jewish hands (1945) to 22% in Arab hands and 78% in Jewish hands (1949) up until 1967 where 100% of the land is under Jewish occupation.

The Israelis also simply took the land from the 800,000 Palestinians that had to flee during the Nakba. This included land for Palestinians who fled to the West Bank and Gaza, so were still in the same 'country'. They basically took their land, rendered them stateless then sold their land to other Jewsish Israelis. It's a pretty disgusting thing to do.

https://www.adalah.org/en/law/view/538
Defines persons who were expelled, fled, or who left the country after 29 November 1947, mainly due to the war, as well as their movable and immovable property (mainly land, houses and bank accounts etc.), as “absentee”.

Property belonging to absentees was placed under the control of the State of Israel with the Custodian for Absentees’ Property. The Absentees’ Property Law was the main legal instrument used by Israel to take possession of the land belonging to the internal and external Palestinian refugees, and Muslim Waqf properties across the state.
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They also have this concept of State Land, which again, is a pretty awful law that they passed. It's more theft of Palestinian land, which Palestinians had used, cultivated, farmed etc on for decades, even paid taxes on, but never formally registered under British and Ottoman rule. It now automatically becomes Israeli land.
 
shamans said:
And the dozen Palestinians children killed? Militants just randomly decided to lug rockets into the sky? Israel did nothing?

Who started direct violence on civilians first? Right or wrong this is the typical Israeli pattern. First provoke and cause a total mess on Palestinian citizens who are unarmed. Then wait for the response from militants after which you look or an excuse to increase your advance.

You don't tell me or anyone who does and doesn't have a right to an opinion. IDF scum also have no right to tell us about leaflets they throw around when so many children have died at their hands.
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So you are perfectly OK with 1200 rockets lunched in order to kill everyone they can get their hands on but you come to school me about moral?
 
Really sympathetic to the Palestinians, also it really grates me how the BBC and other 'neutral' news sources write their coverage... as if the Palestinians are the bullies!

They don't even use the word Palestine, FFS.
 
Even now it could have been sorted out if the Israelis give back the occupied land of 1967 and some part of East Jerusalem. Or they could put the religious area under a triumvirate of a Rabbi, an Imam and a priest of the biggest denomination and put in Swiss Guards or something like that as domestic Police.
Israel would give back most areas of the occupied lands. Now Netanyahu keeps encroaching any land left and yet would not give them official citizenship either. He wants to keep them as refugees.
The hassle the Palestinians get from crossing from Palestine into Jordan every day is horrendous. You are talking of crossing Palestine to Jordan. Not into Israel proper.
How many Palestinians have died at the hands of the Israelis and how many Israelis have died at the hand of the Palestinians?
 
VivaObertan said:
Really sympathetic to the Palestinians, also it really grates me how the BBC and other 'neutral' news sources write their coverage... as if the Palestinians are the bullies!

They don't even use the word Palestine, FFS.
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Yep, that's it for me and BBC News. They are officially fox news from now on and have no shame in it. I guess I'll have to tune in to different international (online?) news channels (European, African, Al Jazeera) to find out what's really going on in the world.
 
MacabbiUnited said:
So you are perfectly OK with 1200 rockets lunched in order to kill everyone they can get their hands on but you come to school me about moral?
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Again with this pathetic line of reasoning. Answer my question first -- who started aggression on unarmed civilians ? Yes I will school you on morals if you are in any way trying to justify the mutilated women and children found on streets of Palestine.
 
Foxbatt said:
Even now it could have been sorted out if the Israelis give back the occupied land of 1967 and some part of East Jerusalem. Or they could put the religious area under a triumvirate of a Rabbi, an Imam and a priest of the biggest denomination and put in Swiss Guards or something like that as domestic Police.
Israel would give back most areas of the occupied lands. Now Netanyahu keeps encroaching any land left and yet would not give them official citizenship either. He wants to keep them as refugees.
The hassle the Palestinians get from crossing from Palestine into Jordan every day is horrendous. You are talking of crossing Palestine to Jordan. Not into Israel proper.
How many Palestinians have died at the hands of the Israelis and how many Israelis have died at the hand of the Palestinians?
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The biggest thing is this whenever pro Israel talk about the terror they face -- they can have a country with peace if they chose to but they do not want that. They have to go raid holy mosques on the holiest night to push their weight around.
 
Dumbstar said:
Yep, that's it for me and BBC News. They are officially fox news from now on and have no shame in it. I guess I'll have to tune in to different international (online?) news channels (European, African, Al Jazeera) to find out what's really going on in the world.
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Cancel the license if you have one too.
 
2cents said:
The ratio I gave (roughly 1/3 Jews, 2/3 Arabs, give or take) refers to the population in 1947 (give or take), not land ownership or control.

@neverdie @africanspur I will respond later.
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Sorry - misread, but yes I agree re population ratio.

I think what I'll add though is that Israeli population in 1945 as you say, was approximately 32%, but then down to pro-Zionist paramilitary organisations, this 32% then owned 80% of the land by 1949. This was just land forcibly taken.
 
sun_tzu said:
Isn't the licence for having equipment that is used to watch TV... not for watching BBC specifically... so if he's watching Al jazeera instead he still has to pay the licence fee... so that's probably not the best advice
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Only for live TV my man. He can watch/read Al Jazeera online.
 
The conflict has no entered the 'indifference' phase, where Palestinians will get killed and no one will be able to do anything about it and nothing will change. Just like 2009, 2012, and 2014.

Though I think Hamas jumped the gun with their rocket launches. I understand why they did it, with the holy mosque being attacked, but a smart leader for them would've just let the protests play out. As it stands it's now drawn attention away from the Sheikh Jarah evictions which resonates with people (forced loss of home / property), to a rocket war where there's less sympathy and to which Palestinains end up always loosing out from.
 
shamans said:
And the dozen Palestinians children killed? Militants just randomly decided to lug rockets into the sky? Israel did nothing?

Who started direct violence on civilians first? Right or wrong this is the typical Israeli pattern. First provoke and cause a total mess on Palestinian citizens who are unarmed. Then wait for the response from militants after which you look or an excuse to increase your advance.

You don't tell me or anyone who does and doesn't have a right to an opinion. IDF scum also have no right to tell us about leaflets they throw around when so many children have died at their hands.
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they don’t count by the sounds of things. Nice one Ariel. These guys are deluded into thinking this is political when it is just crime dressed up as politics. Politics is meant to give people a voice.
 
Carolina Red said:
Lots of Evangelical voters in the US see supporting Israel as a religious duty.
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And of course trump is still stirring the pot for his supporters

From the Desk of Donald J. Trump

2:54pm May 11, 2021
When I was in office we were known as the Peace Presidency, because Israel’s adversaries knew that the United States stood strongly with Israel and there would be swift retribution if Israel was attacked. Under Biden, the world is getting more violent and more unstable because Biden’s weakness and lack of support for Israel is leading to new attacks on our allies. America must always stand with Israel and make clear that the Palestinians must end the violence, terror, and rocket attacks, and make clear that the U.S. will always strongly support Israel’s right to defend itself. Unbelievably, Democrats also continue to stand by crazed anti-American Rep. Ilhan Omar, and others, who savagely attack Israel while they are under terrorist assault.
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sun_tzu said:
And of course trump is still stirring the pot for his supporters
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fecking hell. Par for the course for that asshole but still... just fanning the flames and getting US evangelicals worked up. I guarantee there will be “supporting the State of Israel” sermons preached this Sunday across the US.
 
sun_tzu said:
Isn't the licence for having equipment that is used to watch TV... not for watching BBC specifically... so if he's watching Al jazeera instead he still has to pay the licence fee... so that's probably not the best advice
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I have Sky so no chance I can cancel licence. But I have nothing against BBC entertainment just like Fox entertainment (Simpsons, etc). It's that I will never think of BBC as my go to source for (trustworthy) news any longer.
 
Few of my dad's friends went to Israel on a business trip a couple of years ago . The only Muslim guy in the group was questioned for hours and eventually denied a visa. Wasnt even middle-eastern was Indian.
 
The Israeli military and settler presence has killed on average ~106 Palestinian children per year for the last 20 years.
 
Just read a post from an Israeli on reddit that said just look at how advanced Israel is as well as how beautiful it is compared to Palestine despite the millions of dollars the Palestinians get in aid...
 
Foxbatt said:
Even now it could have been sorted out if the Israelis give back the occupied land of 1967 and some part of East Jerusalem. Or they could put the religious area under a triumvirate of a Rabbi, an Imam and a priest of the biggest denomination and put in Swiss Guards or something like that as domestic Police.
Israel would give back most areas of the occupied lands. Now Netanyahu keeps encroaching any land left and yet would not give them official citizenship either. He wants to keep them as refugees.
The hassle the Palestinians get from crossing from Palestine into Jordan every day is horrendous. You are talking of crossing Palestine to Jordan. Not into Israel proper.
How many Palestinians have died at the hands of the Israelis and how many Israelis have died at the hand of the Palestinians?
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Never going to happen. This is a theft and a money and power grab at the end of the day. They’ll never stop. Listen to that IDF lad above. They think they are under attack and it’s a fair fight. My god. People will swallow any old shit to help them sleep at night.
 
Suv666 said:
Few of my dad's friends went to Israel on a business trip a couple of years ago . The only Muslim guy in the group was questioned for hours and eventually denied a visa. Wasnt even middle-eastern was Indian.
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Damn. Did they fly El Al?
 
shamans said:
Just read a post from an Israeli on reddit that said just look at how advanced Israel is as well as how beautiful it is compared to Palestine despite the millions of dollars the Palestinians get in aid...
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Now this is fecking insane.
 
Carolina Red said:
fecking hell. Par for the course for that asshole but still... just fanning the flames and getting US evangelicals worked up. I guarantee there will be “supporting the State of Israel” sermons preached this Sunday across the US.
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No doubt lettering on signs is being changed as we type.
 
Ali Dia said:
Never going to happen. This is a theft and a money and power grab at the end of the day. They’ll never stop. Listen to that IDF lad above. They think they are under attack and it’s a fair fight. My god. People will swallow any old shit to help them sleep at night.
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Exactly, no signs of stopping at all.
 
The Corinthian said:
Thank you - it's a fair response. The thing about mentioning post-1917 is that it raises a couple of things in my mind. Namely, why only look from 1918 onwards?

The reason I say this the land at the time belong to Turkey under the League of Nations. The land was then both promised to the Arabs in Hejaz and to the progenitors of Zionism. The whole conflict on the region can be zeroed in on the British meddling in the fall out from WW1 and promising the land to two different parties.

I know we can't rewind the clock 100+ years, but until that is addressed, whether it's acceptance of accountability or something more then I think we're going to go round in circles. Similar to how certain elements of Britain's involvement in the slave trade were acknowledged in the BLM protests a year ago.

Even if we look at the UNSCOP plan more closely, there's evidence that the US threatened certain countries with withholding aid unless they voted yes. Sam Zemurray (an influential American business man with business activities in South America) managed to secure yes votes from South American countries.



The reason I'm highlighting this that the Palestinians have been handed such a shit hand from over 100 years ago. And they're still being dealt this same shit hand. The land was promised to two different parties (no say was given to the Palestinians living there). The land was then passed in a UN vote by countries that were bribed or threatened. I'm not surprised they rejected the plan - I think anyone in their position (when presented with the facts) would. I'm sure if the roles were reversed, and it was Jewish people living there and an outside Arab group, backed by the British / US, with the use of brown envelopes and threats then said "Hey, here's our partition plan, you guys are worse off but it's pretty fair otherwise" would reject it also. And that'd be their right.

If we look at post 1947, the Palestinians living there are removed from their homes, stripped of all rights, and those that left under fear of death are made stateless. Land that is Palestinian is being taken by settlers and they're building illegal settlements and which contravenes UN law, but they're turning a blind eye to it. And now they're still being persecuted, forced out of their homes, brutalised whilst worshipping in the month of Ramadan.

Sorry this isn't having a go at you at all, it's just I'm trying to highlight the situation for them as it often gets lost when debating these things.

I'd have no issue with Jewish people living in those lands. I'd have no issue with Christians, and Sabians living there. They all undoubtedly have an love and affinity for the region that stems from their faith tradition, and they should 100% be allowed to be there and have freedom there. But this should also extend to the Muslims that were living there and the Muslims that want to return there. I was in Jordan a few years ago, and it was depressing seeing the amount of refugees there who have family and homes back in Jerusalem and other parts of Palestine but have no way of going there. And I can just stroll in because I have a British passport.

The status quo is rotten to the core in my opinion, and there needs to be some international intervention to stop things from getting worse. There also needs to be some discussion about 'righting' the wrongs of the past. I'm not clever enough to be able to say x or y is the perfect plan, but I do know what it doesn't look like. It wouldn't entail the forceful expulsion of Jews (or any other religion) either, but it should be centred around some equity for the Palestinians living there as well.
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Excellent post. Thank-you.
 
MacabbiUnited said:
So you are perfectly OK with 1200 rockets lunched in order to kill everyone they can get their hands on but you come to school me about moral?
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And so it seems you are ok with your army killing civilians. Kids were murdered by your army.
Israel started this aggression with the evictions and then the raiding of the Al Aqsa mosque and attacking people praying.
Now they escalating it because the only people standing up for the Palestinians are firing back.
Hamas and the IDF are BOTH terrorist groups. One (IDF) is just funded by Western governments who have no conscious.
 
Let me ask this to the pro-Israeli side: what would you like the Palestinians to do?

If you think it's fair that they stand up for their own interests, how should they do it?

I'm getting the impression that y'all expect the Palestinians to just do nothing at all and let the Israeli's walk over them.
 
shamans said:
Just read a post from an Israeli on reddit that said just look at how advanced Israel is as well as how beautiful it is compared to Palestine despite the millions of dollars the Palestinians get in aid...
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Well done you found a stupid post about a contentious subject online.
 
Now I’m going to profusely apologise in advance for any generalisations or misgivings with this, but I’m trying to wrap my head around the conflict and its history.

How far from accurate is this that I’ve taken from various ‘introduction the conflict’ videos & articles:
  • Palestine was previously an independent country which had a mix of Muslim, Christian and Jewish communities with Jerusalem holding value to each
  • After WWI the British take over, Jewish community increases in size
  • WWII arrives, European Jews flee across Europe and also Palestine
  • After this the UN approves the sovereign nation of Israel with its set borders, with Jerusalem given ‘international’ status
  • In the subsequent decades Israel pushes out beyond its border, continually expanding and pushing back the Palestinians
  • Israel then sets up settlements in established Palestine territory, further displacing Palestinians
  • Conflicts arise as does Hamas, gaining power in Gaza and this continues with constant tension throughout the last 30yrs
Could people more knowledgable about this than me help to fill in any gaps or correct my understanding of this?
 
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