Does he live in Israel? Can Israeli citizens not follow the Muhammad Ali route?
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Does he live in Israel? Can Israeli citizens not follow the Muhammad Ali route?
I didn’t disagree with you guys that Israel makes things difficult and commits crimes against Christians.
You stated that only the Israeli make it difficult for Christians. That is just not true, Palestinians also make it difficult for Christian’s. As I said, read the statistics and news. Nearly all Christian’s have had to flee Gaza and that isn’t just because of Israel, it’s because of horrible treatment by Palestinians too.
Don’t just blame Israel as that is just anti Jewish. There is truth on both sides and bad deeds on both sides.
Yes, but in the article above the paragraph I quoted was the first one of the article, that you said you dont have to read.
The other poster said that Israel is the only reason for Christian persecution in the holy land and I corrected him that is not true. I don’t need to read any article to know that as I am already well studied in the subject being a practicing Christian myself.
There are extremist on the Palestinians side as well who make it very difficult, in most cases impossible for Christian’s to live in their areas. Are you trying to argue that’s not true?
There's a strange case in Nazareth where Islamist anti-Christian provocation has been facilitated, and to a degree supported, by the Israeli state. If you ever visit the Church of the Annunciation there (one of the holiest sites in Christianity), you can't fail to notice a massive banner erected by the Northern branch of the Islamic Movement on a plot of land directly adjacent to the Church. The Islamists have claimed the land since the late 90s when local authorities planned a carpark to facilitate visiting Christian pilgrims. To counter this plan, they proposed to build a mosque there instead and set up a small protest camp. The banner (which changes occasionally) typically displays a quote from the Qur'an which may be interpreted as targeted at Christian doctrine. Despite a court ruling that the Islamists had no legitimate claim, Israeli authorities initially approved plans for the mosque, or at least a small shrine at the site (there is some suggestion that certain parties were anxious to secure Muslim votes in the area in the late 90s). Since then I think there's been a stalemate, and last time I was there in the mid -10s the banner was still standing.
I don't see anyone blaming Judaism. The finger-pointing is towards the political establishment.
And the west backed it.
Yes I agree and your correct that Jewish extremist are trying to push out Palestinians but I don’t think they represent Israel the country though. Israel is a democracy and one of the last places on earth that I am scared of as a Christian. These kind of articles seem designed to demonise Israel because other countries which are far worst for Christians don’t get this scrutiny.
There are issues there of course, (that is probably a massive understatement!) but the problem exists on both sides. The Palestinian Authority-controlled areas are particularly brutal places for Christians to live and nearly all Christian’s have been driven out of those areas.
Fair enough, I haven’t seen that directly either so bad wording from me but the arguments on here feel way too one-sided. Although, I understand this is a really divisive topic and most people have a strong opinion one way or the other.
israeli policies dictate what happens in the occupied land they might not be the only reason for persecution but they are the biggest persecutors by far.
Yes their are extremists on both sides but the extremists on the israeli side literally get away with displacing and murdering innocent people in most cases they are backed by the army that is meant to protect ALL citizens not just the ones who deem themselves as the chosen people.
You think its ok to support a country that imprisons and butchers children?
For the sake of nuance, it's worth considering that a growing number of Arabs - including Muslims and Christians, are joining the IDF themselves. Also, I say this without hyperbole; both sides are guilty of committing atrocities and targeting civilians.
Better than thinking it's ok to support a cause thats always been antisemitic at its core.
Me too. True roots of the conflict vs Feeble virtue signalling.
Hmm not really the same if you have people elected into office saying such things, whilst governing over such people they’re talking about (the Palestinians in case you’re not sure) compared to what looks like a random store in a random Arab country, a little girl on a random tv show, etc.
Classified Docs Reveal Massacres of Palestinians in '48 – and What Israeli Leaders Knew
Testimonies continue to pile up, documents are revealed, and gradually a broader picture emerges of the acts of murder committed by Israeli troops during the War of Independence. Minutes recorded during cabinet meetings in 1948 leave no room for doubt: Israel's leaders knew in real time about the blood-drenched events that accompanied the conquest of the Arab villages
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...t-the-only-one-perpetrated-by-isra-1.10453626
What are you thoughts on this ^
@Fearless why do you keep bringing up Hamas when literally no one in this thread is defending them?
And if your defense is "well, the Israeli state is like Hamas" I don't think you do your side any favors.
And if your defense is "well, the Israeli state is like Hamas" I don't think you do your side any favors.
you should post a selfie when you reply in this thread so I can see if you do it with a straight face
There's a huge difference between not defending Hamas and condemning it. Pretending that they are a side effect (or worse, a construct) of Israel's actions is just ignoring the facts, and the PA isn't much better. Two buttocks of the same arse. The root of the conflict - outright antisemitism, and the destruction of Israel - is barely mentioned because it doesn't sit well with many of the posters here for a number of elephant in the room reasons. For some, it's religious dogma, others, it's a whipping boy for all things 'right wing'.
And Israel is the arsehole.
It's a laughable piece by AI.
They forget that there is an arab party in the government. Also 20% of Israeli citizens are Arabs with rights Mandela would have dreamed of while rotting in prison.
Yes, very much like SA.
Just another anti-semitic smear by a western organisation. We need to be aware of antisemitism in the West.
Absolutely the West and everywhere need to be aware of anti semitism because innocent Jews will suffer as a result. The first step is to call out the anti semitism race card callers like yourself and Fearless. Only then can anti semitism be dealt with, without blurred lines.
Israel, the political entity, is an apartheid state. End of. Can't keep going around shouting fake news like some cheap Donald Trump.
What absolute shite.
Do you really think AI is smear? You’re really reaching to try and obfuscate the point, but you’re just coming across as desperate.
Well, I mentioned just two points that contradict the Apartheid thesis.
I can't understand how they still think it is a valid conclusion.
I can't understand how they still think it is a valid conclusion.
Did you read the report?
If you don't understand how conflict inevitably breeds sectarian tensions then that's on you. Any area that would have seen a population forcibly removed from their homes to make way for a religious state would have inevitably harboured ill will towards the people taking their land. This is just absurdly naïve guilt tripping - If you want to play guilt by association then Israel have enough demons of their own. They aligned with literal fascists in Lebanon, a group inspired by Nazi Germany as it aligned with their own anti-arab sentiment.
I don't particularly blame either side of the conflict for harbouring those feelings - I'm aware from my own country how these divisions lead to hatred - But the idea that the root of this conflict is anti-Semitism is so fecking laughable that it doesn't merit discussion. It is a land dispute - It has always been a land dispute. Completely remove the religious aspect and the results would be the same. People who are displaced en masse will inevitably resist displacement with violence. Conflict was inevitable when Israel was established and literally everyone involved knew as much at the time.
Other way round....
This is a partial list of the antisemitic attacks pre-Israel, pre-settlements, pre-'displacement' on Palestinian Jews.
Of course, the situation wasn't helped with the Mufti of Jerusalem cozying up to Hitler in adopting the final solution in the Middle east too..
Battle of Tel Hai 1920, Arabs
Nebi Musa riots 1920, Arabs
Jaffa riots 1921, Arabs
Jerusalem stabbing attack 1921, Arabs
Palestine Riots 1929, Arabs
Hebron massacre 1929, Arabs
Safed massacre 1929, Arabs
1933 Palestine riots, Arabs
1936 Anabta shooting, Arabs
Jaffa 1936, Arabs
Rotherham red already answered this made up point of yours ages ago.
Couple weeks ago Israeli media reported that new research shows that Hajj Amin attended a Purim party in Tel Aviv in the early 1920s dressed as a woman in blonde wig and make-up, as one of many examples of his relatively extensive contacts with Jews in pre-1929 Palestine.
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/313739
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/313739
And I disputed it. To pretend he had zero influence is absurd...
Following his brother's death, Amin al-Husayni became Mufti of Jerusalem on May 8, 1921. This position carried overarching religious and moral authority throughout Palestine. On January 9, 1922, al-Husayni became president of the newly established Supreme Muslim Council (al-Majlis al-Islami al-A'ala), a position that controlled the shari'a courts, approved the content of education for religious schools and orphanages, and supervised religious financial advisory boards and the use of funds (waqf) for maintenance and renovation of religious sites and institutions, and for assistance to the poor. Control over these funds enhanced his authority within Palestine and among leaders of other Arab states.
Buddy do you think the concept of a Jewish state emerged in 1948 or something?
These attacks were precisely because the Arabs were threatened by the growing sentiment among Jewish people that Palestine would be there homeland. Literally just read the British reports.
On the 1929 riots:
The British-appointed Shaw Commission found that the fundamental cause of the violence, "without which in our opinion disturbances either would not have occurred or would not have been little more than a local riot, is the Arab feeling of animosity and hostility towards the Jews consequent upon the disappointment of their political and national aspirations and fear for their economic future",[6] as well as Arab fears of Jewish immigrants "not only as a menace to their livelihood but as a possible overlord of the future".
Your entire thesis is hilariously wrong. The idea that this is just innate hatred of Jewish people is absolutely ludicrous. The root cause of the conflict are two distinct groups of people disputing over land and power.
Other way round - the unlimited immigration from Arabs from surrounding area's (attracted by the economic boom /employment that Jewish immigration and industry conferred). Indeed, the Hope Simpson Commission, sent from London to investigate the 1929 Arab riots, said the British practice of ignoring the uncontrolled illegal Arab immigration from Egypt, Trans- jordan, and Syria had the effect of displacing the prospective Jewish immigrants - the only group that actually suffered from controlled immigration.
So again, Arab's anxieties of being 'dominated' was just an excuse for good old antisemitism inspired by the radical Islamic views of the Mufti.
Amazing that you'd cite the Hope Simpson Commission here. That commission concluded that the Arab fears of Zionist colonization were legitimate, that controls needed to be put in place to prevent Zionists from increasing unemployment among Arabs, refuted the Zionist claim that their efforts were helping the Arabs, pointed out that there was also illegal Jewish immigration across Mandate lines, and recommended that Jewish immigration to Palestine be limited.
Parts of it, yes.
It doesn't have to repeat what happened in South Africa to the letter in order to be apartheid.
Immigration controls were put in place - except for Arabs. You can't have this both ways - more and more Arabs coming in for what exactly? Poverty?
Yes, the report does state (and appreciates the logic) that the hiring of Jews became policy for zionist settlements in order to attract further Jewish immigration, and
by definition would have curtailed Arab employment despite there being sizeable Arab population increases since 1917 along with a rise in their standard of living
(In 1922, there were 22,000 dunams of Arab land producing citrus crops. In 1940, there were 140,000 dunams of Arab citrus land, mostly producing crop for export in Palestine. In 1931 Arabs had 332,000 dunams of olive groves and apple orchards. By 1942 they had 832,000 dunams under cultivation)
Considering the report also states that 25,000 Jewish immigrants, bringing along healthy capital investment, could be the sole reason for Arab unemployment is absurd (citing a figure of 4,000 unemployed out of nearly a million population) as it also states "But probably the most serious cause of additional unemployment is the cessation of conscription for the army, prevalent under the Turkish Government. The young men now remain in the villages. Formerly they were despatched to the Yemen or to Anatolia"
It doesn't repeat anything in South Africa, apart from further insulting those who suffered under it. The proper version I mean, not the jutation you're harking on about.