Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

I see the scared one is back earning his death dollars. Has he also got another recruit with him?
 
Brown Toothpick said:
99% of people don't understand the meaning of anti-semitic.
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They may not do. I may not do fully. But my comment of course was to raise awareness of what the Israeli Zionists were chanting rather than requiring an education in anti Semitism.

But we seem to have forgotten what they were chanting, right? Because we're now focusing on the nuances of anti Semitism again rather than the vile things what we just saw in that video.

That's what you call distraction. You and Fearless pulled it off yet again. Not surprising as I'm sure you're all paid well.
 
Dumbstar said:
They may not do. I may not do fully. But my comment of course was to raise awareness of what the Israeli Zionists were chanting rather than requiring an education in anti Semitism.

But we seem to have forgotten what they were chanting, right? Because we're now focusing on the nuances of anti Semitism again rather than the vile things what we just saw in that video.

That's what you call distraction. You and Fearless pulled it off yet again. Not surprising as I'm sure you're all paid well.
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Well said. Conveniently the narrative of the topic will be shifted by these two...thats how they teach them in troll school.
 
Dumbstar said:
They may not do. I may not do fully. But my comment of course was to raise awareness of what the Israeli Zionists were chanting rather than requiring an education in anti Semitism.

But we seem to have forgotten what they were chanting, right? Because we're now focusing on the nuances of anti Semitism again rather than the vile things what we just saw in that video.

That's what you call distraction. You and Fearless pulled it off yet again. Not surprising as I'm sure you're all paid well.
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They were vile. We have our nutters too.
 
Desert Eagle said:
Not by any common definition of the term.

"A fascist state is led by a strong leader such as a dictator and a martial law government composed of the members of the governing fascist party to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society."

There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of Israel without adding things that aren't true. You could say it's fascist elements are increasing and i'd agree with you.
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I take your point, but there's a few definitions -

"Fascism is a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism." The bit about dictator doesn't apply.

I mean, just 1 day ago the govt emboldened its citizens to march in the streets and shout "Death to Arabs" and Islamophobic slurs with no recourse. It's a pretty textbook fascist thing.
 
The Corinthian said:
I take your point, but there's a few definitions -

"Fascism is a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism." The bit about dictator doesn't apply.

I mean, just 1 day ago the govt emboldened its citizens to march in the streets and shout "Death to Arabs" and Islamophobic slurs with no recourse. It's a pretty textbook fascist thing.
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So genuinely whats your moral opinion on this? Care to comment?
I've already condemned the disgusting Israeli behaviour so please offer the same courtesy.

https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/10/...ro-dissent/arbitrary-arrest-and-torture-under
 
Dumbstar said:
They may not do. I may not do fully. But my comment of course was to raise awareness of what the Israeli Zionists were chanting rather than requiring an education in anti Semitism.

But we seem to have forgotten what they were chanting, right? Because we're now focusing on the nuances of anti Semitism again rather than the vile things what we just saw in that video.

That's what you call distraction. You and Fearless pulled it off yet again. Not surprising as I'm sure you're all paid well.
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lefty_jakobz said:
Well said. Conveniently the narrative of the topic will be shifted by these two...thats how they teach them in troll school.
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@Brown Toothpick isn't a zionist btw, he's anti racist apartheid regimes like the rest of us.
 
Fearless said:
So genuinely whats your moral opinion on this? Care to comment?

https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/10/...ro-dissent/arbitrary-arrest-and-torture-under
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It's a 2.5 year old article that you've only brought up to deflect from the disgusting shit your lot are doing on a daily basis.

Edit: Also, I find it incredibly rich you're now asking for a genuine opinion from me considering you've been dancing, deflecting, youtube linking your way around every legitimate criticism of Israel. You really are oblivious af.
 
Fearless said:
Interesting. I could argue exactly the same thing about your daily tweet shots.

But I actually read them.
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I'd encourage you to read them. Going by your posts they come across uneducated and a little deluded too.
 
The Corinthian said:
I take your point, but there's a few definitions -

"Fascism is a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism." The bit about dictator doesn't apply.

I mean, just 1 day ago the govt emboldened its citizens to march in the streets and shout "Death to Arabs" and Islamophobic slurs with no recourse. It's a pretty textbook fascist thing.
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There are 14 core characteristics of fascism, some of which Israeli satisfies, some that it doesn't, which is of course problematic for any multi-party Parliamentary Democracy. The legal primacy of one religion or ethnic group being guaranteed in a Democracy is bound to cause problems, especially when you add other disputes into the mix.
 
Raoul said:
There are 14 core characteristics of fascism, some of which Israeli satisfies, some that it doesn't, which is of course problematic for any multi-party Parliamentary Democracy. The legal primacy of one religion or ethnic group being guaranteed in a Democracy is bound to cause problems, especially when you add other disputes into the mix.
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You can probably apply that everywhere else to some degree or another. Israel is no exception...except that it always is.
 
Sweet Square said:
Israel is a backwards ethic state which enforces a regime of apartheid/ jewish supremacy but it isn't a fascist state(Not yet anyway).
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If you're a Palestinian in the West Bank or Gaza, defining Israel as fascist is easily done.

Apartheid is the easier of the two to argue for though. It is a legitimately apartheid state. Whether this corresponds to people's ideas of what fascism is seems beside the point.
 
Fearless said:
You can probably apply that everywhere else to some degree or another. Israel is no exception...except that it always is.
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Yes, you can apply some of these to the US as well. Ultimately, many of these terms (fascism, apartheid, etc) are merely thrown around by advocacy groups in an attempt to create moral leverage on social media. They don't have any bearing among the only 3 or perhaps 4 entities that matter in this conflict - the Israelis, Palestinians, US, and perhaps Egypt. Everyone else is on the outside looking in and generally powerless to do anything other than complain on social media.
 
Dumbstar said:
They may not do. I may not do fully. But my comment of course was to raise awareness of what the Israeli Zionists were chanting rather than requiring an education in anti Semitism.

But we seem to have forgotten what they were chanting, right? Because we're now focusing on the nuances of anti Semitism again rather than the vile things what we just saw in that video.

That's what you call distraction. You and Fearless pulled it off yet again. Not surprising as I'm sure you're all paid well.
Click to expand...
lefty_jakobz said:
Well said. Conveniently the narrative of the topic will be shifted by these two...thats how they teach them in troll school.
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Calm down. I'm against zionism and everything Fearless spouts here. You misunderstood my post and ran with it. I meant that they have been brainwashed with the term, meaning if you're against Israel then you're an anti-semitic.
 
Raoul said:
Yes, you can apply some of these to the US as well. Ultimately, many of these terms (fascism, apartheid, etc) are merely thrown around by advocacy groups in an attempt to create moral leverage on social media. They don't have any bearing among the only 3 or perhaps 4 entities that matter in this conflict - the Israelis, Palestinians, US, and perhaps Egypt. Everyone else is on the outside looking in and generally powerless to do anything other than complain on social media.
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"Apartheid" is a political criteria which Israel objectively meets. B'Tselem didn't investigate the matter just to publish it on social media, and nor did the two senior Israeli civil servants who published their own opinion. Lumping very detailed sociopolitical analyses which arrive at "apartheid" into the same class as offhand categorisations of fascism is much more problematic. You would have to debunk a lot of scholarly work in order to support your point that apartheid is used solely and entirely subjectively when all the facts point elsewhere.

The fact of apartheid has an absolute bearing on Palestinians and Israelis. Ignoring this fact has a bearing on the US, but as the US is tainted insofar as brokerage goes, their relevance as a mediator is enormously diminished. No one expects the US to accept Israel as an apartheid state (just as they didn't with SA) because Israel is the US's own vanguard/outpost in military/colonial endeavours in the Middle East.

Or another way of thinking, how can you claim that Israel has to meet 14 points in order to be categorised as fascist whilst denying that it meets all the correlating points apropos of apartheid? If it fails the "fascist" test, it passes the "apartheid" test with flying colours.
 
Fearless said:
I just told you I thought some of the Israeli protesters at the march were vile. And previously called out the horrific behaviour aimed toward Arabs.
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You've commented on Israeli individuals. I've not seen one single comment from you about the regime that sets the tone, or its policies or rhetoric.

Did you notice how the IDF / Israeli cops present did nothing to stop these protestors spouting Islamophobic & racist slurs?

Do you think the government should allow this in light of events in the last month, and in a Muslim heavy area?
 
The Corinthian said:
I take your point, but there's a few definitions -

"Fascism is a system of government led by a dictator who typically rules by forcefully and often violently suppressing opposition and criticism, controlling all industry and commerce, and promoting nationalism and often racism." The bit about dictator doesn't apply.

I mean, just 1 day ago the govt emboldened its citizens to march in the streets and shout "Death to Arabs" and Islamophobic slurs with no recourse. It's a pretty textbook fascist thing.
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Yes we agree that is a terrible thing and a government that supports actively or passively such abhorrent behavior from its citizens should be heavily criticised( at a minimum).

The fascist thing I feel just serves to muddy the waters and doesn't benefit Palestinians.
 
neverdie said:
"Apartheid" is a political criteria which Israel objectively meets. B'Tselem didn't investigate the matter just to publish it on social media, and nor did the two senior Israeli civil servants who published their own opinion. Lumping very detailed sociopolitical analyses which arrive at "apartheid" into the same class as offhand categorisations of fascism is much more problematic. You would have to debunk a lot of scholarly work in order to support your point that apartheid is used solely and entirely subjectively when all the facts point elsewhere.

The fact of apartheid has an absolute bearing on Palestinians and Israelis. Ignoring this fact has a bearing on the US, but as the US is tainted insofar as brokerage goes, their relevance as a mediator is enormously diminished. No one expects the US to accept Israel as an apartheid state (just as they didn't with SA) because Israel is the US's own vanguard/outpost in military/colonial endeavours in the Middle East.

Or another way of thinking, how can you claim that Israel has to meet 14 points in order to be categorised as fascist whilst denying that it meets all the correlating points apropos of apartheid? If it fails the "fascist" test, it passes the "apartheid" test with flying colours.
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Well said. Israel is an apartheid state by every legitimate metric but not a fascist state. Conflating the two does no one any favors.
 
Dumbstar said:
Isn't that anti Semitic, but against another religion?
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Nah mate, saying "Death to Arabs" is not racist or Islamaphobic but rather free speech. Learn the difference and be thankful you live in a western society were you can say such stuff without being persecuted.
 
neverdie said:
"Apartheid" is a political criteria which Israel objectively meets. B'Tselem didn't investigate the matter just to publish it on social media, and nor did the two senior Israeli civil servants who published their own opinion. Lumping very detailed sociopolitical analyses which arrive at "apartheid" into the same class as offhand categorisations of fascism is much more problematic. You would have to debunk a lot of scholarly work in order to support your point that apartheid is used solely and entirely subjectively when all the facts point elsewhere.

The fact of apartheid has an absolute bearing on Palestinians and Israelis. Ignoring this fact has a bearing on the US, but as the US is tainted insofar as brokerage goes, their relevance as a mediator is enormously diminished. No one expects the US to accept Israel as an apartheid state (just as they didn't with SA) because Israel is the US's own vanguard/outpost in military/colonial endeavours in the Middle East.
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Its not accepted by those with the power to actually do something about the conflict, which relegates it to little more than a useless pejorative used by people on the sidelines to express their frustrations about a lack of progress. There's also the counter-narrative that applying the apartheid label to Israel is little more than a device to delegitimize the concept of a Jewish state (aka intellectual antisemitism). Both of these concepts are best left alone as neither serve to bring the two parties together to negotiate a solution.
 
Raoul said:
Its not accepted by those with the power to actually do something about the conflict, which relegates it to little more than a useless pejorative used by people on the sidelines to express their frustrations about the conflict. There's also the counter-narrative that applying the apartheid label to Israel is little more than a device to delegitimize the concept of a Jewish state (aka intellectual antisemitism). Both of these concepts are best left alone as neither serve to bring the two parties together to negotiate a solution.
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I would argue that this is a different degree of concept. Not so much as to whether it meets the criteria, which it legitimately does, but rather as to whether its meeting of the criteria of "aparthied" transfers unproblematically into the pragmatic definition of it as such. As to whether we apply a label which does fit or choose not to apply it as its application may cause more harm than good. I agree that is a valid argument though disagree regarding "intellectual antisemitism", unless you mean that Israel may perceive/spin it as such in order to ignore the primary issue, in which case that is quite possible but perhaps unavoidable.
 
The Corinthian said:
You've commented on Israeli individuals. I've not seen one single comment from you about the regime that sets the tone, or its policies or rhetoric.

Did you notice how the IDF / Israeli cops present did nothing to stop these protestors spouting Islamophobic & racist slurs?

Do you think the government should allow this in light of events in the last month, and in a Muslim heavy area?
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No. It's horrible and should be criminalised.
 
Brown Toothpick said:
Calm down. I'm against zionism and everything Fearless spouts here. You misunderstood my post and ran with it. I meant that they have been brainwashed with the term, meaning if you're against Israel then you're an anti-semitic.
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Apologies, misread your post then.
 
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Raoul said:
Its not accepted by those with the power to actually do something about the conflict, which relegates it to little more than a useless pejorative used by people on the sidelines to express their frustrations about a lack of progress. There's also the counter-narrative that applying the apartheid label to Israel is little more than a device to delegitimize the concept of a Jewish state (aka intellectual antisemitism). Both of these concepts are best left alone as neither serve to bring the two parties together to negotiate a solution.
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Intellectual anti-semitism. That is just glorious, I can be thankful to atleast being called an intellectual alongside anti-semite this time.
 
Two pertinent quotes from Israel’s new foreign minister (and leader of the largest party in the new coalition):



 
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