The US's mediation role isn't going to change. The only way out of this is to replace the leaders of the two belligerent sides and get some fresh people around the table.
Israel - Iran and regional players | Please post respectfully
- Thread starter Raoul
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The US's mediation role isn't going to change. The only way out of this is to replace the leaders of the two belligerent sides and get some fresh people around the table.
Well yes a dialogue did exist before Hamas, albeit not a good one. It's hard to negotiate with religious lunatics whose stated aim is to wipe you out because God said so, and are happy to use their own population as human shields. That's probably why the Israeli public no longer elects governments who try to. Of course Gazans get no say in their own government, they just get to die protecting them.
But that's the point, there's no pressure to removing Netanyahu and his ilk. Is there a plurality of US politicians calling for him to go? Nope, quite the contrary. And even if by some miracle he buggers off, who's to say his replacement is a conducive partner to peace? We've heard supposedly 'moderate' prominent Israeli politicians echoing the same quasi-genocidal rhetoric.
The holistic issue is Israel doesn't feel any pressure to change course, not when they continue to be protected, unconditionally supported by the US and remain unpunished. That's unlikely to change if you change heads.
Well you're not going to get anywhere with him still in the picture, therefore he would have to be replaced. There are plenty on the US Democratic party side who view him as a roadblock to progress.
It is certainly in a very precarious position, not least because of a relentless climate change crisis. But it is also being propped up by China and Russia and is in lock step with their expansionist agenda, making a war a real possibility.
Netanyahu will be removed from power in the medium term because of his failure to prevent October 7. He is also personally hated by Trump for reasons nothing to do with wider politics so can't survive into January in the likely event Trump wins the presidency.
Plenty =/= plurality, you saw the reception he got in congress, a lot of it from the blue side of the house. Sadly the few dissenting voices were just that, fringe voices.
Do you honestly see a world where :
1. US piles pressure on Netanyahu to leave and
2. Insist that his successor actually behaves like a bonafide partner in peace negotiations?
They don't have to pressure him to leave - that's up to the Israelis. The new US President could however put more pressure on him or his replacement. Netanyahu is obviously slow walking all of this so he doesn't have to deal with his legal cases and inevitable inquest about 10.7 , so there will need to be more pressure put on him. The ability to do that will however be much more difficult if the Israelis are getting attacked by Iran and its proxies, which will galvanize US support to get fully behind Isreal.
Because these have been happening in a bubble? Netanyahu and the Israelis have been provoking Iran and its proxies pretty much since the start of the conflict, assassinating prominent figures, blowing up embassies and various other acts of provocation. He's essentially goading you into a regional conflict just to prolong his grip in power, and you're all happily being taken along for the ride. If this latest round of escalations tide over, who's to say he wouldn't order another act of provocation to perpetually prolong the crisis?
Those prominent figures would be the likes of IRGC commanders, Hamas operatives/leaders, Hezbollah commanders etc. All folks who exist to target Israel. They are obviously not going to stand idly by and wait for those attacks to take place inside Israel without first attempting to disrupt the pipeline of terror networks coming from Iran.
Of course Iran and its proxies are just peace loving multiculturalists who had nothing to do with starting this war on October 7.
Ar
I'm sorry how can say that with a straight face when you have jewish fundamentalists running a country with many of them having gone as far as wanting to wipe out the Palestinians.
I see no Jewish fundamentalists running Israel. 20% of the Israeli population is Arab and live perfectly normal lives. Some serve in the IDF. What I do see is Islamic fundamentalists running Gaza whose explicit policy is to wipe out Israel. No Jews live in Gaza. If they did they would be killed instantly. Your point of view is a classic inversion straight out of the Moscow 1960's handbook.
Ah we’re at the Inevitable “no u” stage of every conversation involving Jews and Palestinians.
Hardly inevitable around here. Usually anyone who disagrees with George Galloway gets threadbanned.
Mate relax and stop exaggerating
You obviously never visited the Palestine thread.
I have and I have made many posts there,
Anyway this is a pretty dull and redundant conversation, I wish you the best in your crusade against the room wall.
Which are acts of provocation, intended to not only prolong this conflict, but also drive it into a far more destructive regional war. I'm not absolving the Iranians of their culpability in contributing to this instability, but as far as confrontations go, they've been exclusively indirect, using their proxies, much like any other power with a stake in a regional game. By directly assassinating Iranian figureheads, bombing embassies as well as assassinating figures involved in peace negotiations, Israel has irresponsibly exacerbated the regional situation, quite clearly hoping to kill off any means of there being a resolution, and dragging the US in deeper.
Yes we're all aware of Iran and Hezbollah's charter, but a clearly belligerent and unhinged Israeli fascist leader 'pre-emptively' and directly attacking state officials knowing their country would be obliged to respond (and in turn obliging Israel's allies to get involved) is an unmitigated recipe for disaster. And even if by some miracle this hypothetical resulting regional war ends in Israel's favour with IR of Iran and its proxies 'destroyed', what do you think happens next? The region enters a new age of idyllic peace and prosperity? (Just like when Iraq was decimated). The Israelis cease their land thefts and subjugation of the Palestinians? Netanyahu declares it mission accomplished and quietly disappears into the night to face justice within Israeli courts?
The self defence angle also barely holds true anymore for a nation that's in a perpetual state of hostile expansion, possesses the strongest and sophisticated military in the region, remains the sole nuclear power in the region and one that boasts the backing of the world's premier nuclear superpower.
It's quite incredible that ten months in and after one of the most brutal military campaigns since WWII, alongside the most documented genocide in human history which only resulted in the utter failure in defeating Hamas and completely isolating Israel on the international scene, you're still banging that drum.
Iran is a 3,000 years old major player in the region that will never go away and just can't be dismissed. 46 years of sanctions, murders, and proxy-wars achieved the square root of feck all. Your view of the actors and dynamics in the region is a Disney one, watched through neocon specs. What you advocated from day one after 10/7 will never happen since Hamas is an idea. You defeat an idea with a better one, not with 2,000 pounds bombs or extra-judicial assassinations. Constantly poking at Iran will only lead to a major war in which there's no winner.
Hamas is a by-product of Israel's policies in the occupied territories, just like Hezbollah is a direct result of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. They're not going anywhere no matter how many of their leaders you kill, unless you go for the root cause which is the Israeli occupation of Palestine. Hamas will also be integrated one way or another into any serious peace talk, just like Arafat became a dialogue partner once Rabin understood that the hammer/nail policy lead to nowhere. A true shame that he was killed for seeing the light.
Terrorism is a very old, and highly subjective, political brand used to disqualify anyone the dominant side doesn't like. Hamas are terrorists, but so was Menachem Begin, a leader of Irgun before becoming Israel's PM. His organization was responsible for multiple acts of terrorism including attacks on civilians and the bombing of the King David Hotel. Or Yitzhak Shamir, terrorist, leader of the Lehi which carried out multiple massacres including Deir Yasin in 1948 and also future PM of Israel.
On a side note, it's absolutely amazing to see so many people firmly anchored in the democratic camp, including many posters here, cheering when Israel assassinates someone on foreign soil and continuously makes a mockery of every single international law. The cognitive dissonance, double standards and complete disintegration of any kind of moral compass taking place in this particular matter will be a case study for decades, if not centuries.
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Well said!! Couldn’t agree more.
The assassination of Haniyeh could have been the nail in the coffin for a ceasefire and peace settlement, as he was the the moderate of the Hamas leadership.
And this is exactly what Netanyahu wanted; to continue the war and prolong his political life.
Exactly. If Israel does achieve all its stated goals and dismantles Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, then what? Well if you go by the Zionist charter and ideology and listen to the rhetoric of far right lunatics like Ben Gvir and Smotrich, they will be looking to conquer Lebanon, Syria and Jordan to reconcile the land formerly known as Canaan, which they believe to be solely theirs, even though many different groups of people lived in Canaan not just Jews.
And of course, the day the IDF rolls into Beirut and plants their flag there, following the massacre of hundreds of thousands of people, flouting every international law in the process, the Americans will undoubtedly say their support for Israel is ‘ironclad.’
The question is when will this ironclad support end and what will it take for the US to wake up and see that the biggest threat to peace in the Middle East is Israel.
Have you noticed almost everyone agrees with each other? Probably not. But there's a reason.
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Great post.
What utter nonsense. No Jewish fundamentalists running Israel? Smotrich, Ben Gvir and Netanyahu say hello. And the Arabs in Israel don’t live normal lives compared to Jewish Israelis, that is just a blatant lie and you know it.
Excuse me but everything in your post can be said of the Israeli government.
And who elected these lunatics in Israel? Oh yes the Israeli public.
Palestinians just want their freedom, to them this is not a religious war, it is about liberty and land. It’s the Israelis who see it as a religious war.
So let me tell you something, when the latest iteration of the war began I had a lot of sympathy for Israel and the response in the first few days didn't make me bat an eyelid. I was even 'pro Israel', if you could call it that. I've worked with many IDF members in the past and been to Israel and had a lot of pleasant experiences there.
Then weeks went by, months went by, and as time went by the more my sympathetic and internal justifications for Israel could not be deemed reasonable to my conscience. What is happening now is absolutely ridiculous and well beyond any normal measure of sanity and humanity.
Regardless of what you say about intent, about how extremists from Gaza want to genocide the Jews etc etc etc, the reality is simple.
For all the rhetoric, it's tens of thousands of Palestinians dead. For all the supposed "intent" of Hamas and the "peaceful intent" of Israel, the fact is that the Gazan population is on the brink of being ethnically cleansed whilst the Israeli population sit comfortably in their homes.
Who fecking cares about "intent" when one side is massacring the other.
I wouldn't spend too much on this poster, they spent months regurgitating IDF lies and trolling the main thread to the point they had to be thread banned and is starting to do the same here.
Gotcha
Probably because those that remain are mainly articulate, intelligent or knowledgeable posters who can discuss without name calling or offensive comments, without sarcasm, trolling and in good faith. They don't resort to inflammatory rhetoric or baseless propaganda and conspiracy bullshit either. If you're suggesting that it's only left leaning & liberal posters that use the thread that's probably because those on the right can't discuss without resoering to everything I mentioned above. For the record, there have been a fair few left leaning & liberal posters banned or threadbanned too.
There are also a few right wing posters still posting there too, but not many as it's no secret that this forum especially, but the majority of middle aged or younger posters in the world are left leaning or more liberal leaning. Just look at the UK riots going on or Trump supporters, fair right voters are usually less well educated or just filled with hate of anything except what they believe in, especially if that involves a religion they don't like or of a different race.
It's also highly likely that many right wing posters on here just stay out the threads or this particular forum because they know they will be banned if they spoke their true thoughts and feelings. Or, especially with the Palestine thread, they know they have no excuses or arguments against what is going on, so why bother?
I applaud you revising your own viewpoints, but something I'm still curious about.
Prior to October 7th, did you not feel any unease or objection to the status quo, namely the role Israel was playing in subjugating the Palestinians and colonising the west bank? This isn't me trying to catch you out btw, I'm genuinely curious as to what shaped your holistic view of the conflict (outside of the positive interactions you've had with your trips to Israel and coming into contact with their IDF personnel).
In fact they resort to that rhetoric all the time. The actual reason is that the people who challenge the anti-Israeli rhetoric get thread banned. I got quite a few supportive messages from such people when I challenged the prevailing tone, before getting thread banned myself. Don't mistake that place for the real world. It's a Guardian reader echo chamber.
Regardless of whether you agree or disagree, that was a beautifully written post
I disagree vehemently with your Guardian reader echo chamber comment. I think it's not only wrong, but also a bit of a tired and lazy retort that ignored the point being made.
You are a genuine nutter.
What part of what I said is inaccurate?
Great post.