Israel defies Bush.

Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>Raoul : f America the super power cannot control or force Sharon out ....who can ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tareq,

Sharon democratically elected leader of a sovereign state. We can only advise and lend diplomatic support. In the end, its up to Sharon to decide what to do.
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Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>Raoul : f America the super power cannot control or force Sharon out ....who can ?</strong><hr></blockquote>

tareq:

The mere fact that you want to believe that the Israeli government is a puppet regime run by the Americans (or is it the Jews who control our media?) does not make it so. Bush and Rice aren't in charge of the Israeli military and can't order it to pull out, although some diplomatic/economic pressure will eventually force Sharon's hand.

But to what end? What guarantee has Israel had of national security? So far, all I see is a request that they retreat to an indefensible border and hope for the goodwill of those who have never shown any for continued survival. Whether the State of Israel should exist is not a question I will debate at the moment (as I really don't care) but to the extent it does, Sharon and his henchmen do have the right to take steps necessary to maintain that existence. I suspect that they didn't know back in 1947 that the state of Israel was created so that a lot of Jews would leave Europe, the initial supporting nations could withdraw their support of the country, and the Arabs could finish off what Hitler had begun back in the 1930's.

Perhaps what we have here is yet another impasse between to irretractable sides. The Palestinians can demand a pullback before they negotiate; the Israelis, that negotiations begin before they surrender the strategic advantage. Both sides, as always, will be right, and both will be wrong.
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mathiaslg:

The public forum in Fresno is the corner(s) of Blackstone and Shaw Avenues. That's where folks gather with signs/whatever to state their cases--whether is was opposition to the Gulf War, farm labor/Caesar Chavez issues, or other political debate. The Arab-Americans (and friends) have been out in force for several weeks now, waving flags, holding up signs that call Sharon "Hitler," and, in general, having a fun time asking folks to "honk" in support of the Palestinians in their plight and for the elimination of the Jewish state in general. Although we don't have the sheer numbers that will gather in DC, I do live less than 1/2 mile from the major mosque/Islamic culture center in northern Fresno, so at times it seems like it. Temple Beth Israel is a bit farther away (and on the other side of me from the mosque.
 
I read that there were some big names at this pro-Israel gathering, such as Wolfowitz, Gephardt, Netenyahu etc... Big croud too apparently.

If anyone read about the demonstrations in Vienna, little old me was walking by exactly when they were going on.
 
I read that there were some big names at this pro-Israel gathering, such as Wolfowitz, Gephardt, Netenyahu etc... Big croud too apparently.

If anyone read about the big demonstrations recently in Vienna (in regards to the World War II Exhibition), little old me was walking by exactly when they were going on.
 
Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>I read that there were some big names at this pro-Israel gathering, such as Wolfowitz, Gephardt, Netenyahu etc... Big croud too apparently.

If anyone read about the demonstrations in Vienna, little old me was walking by exactly when they were going on.</strong><hr></blockquote>


1. Wolfowitz got booed.
2. Netenyahu at a pro Israeli rally, now theres a surprise, and if Gephardt was there then I've lost all respect for him.
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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>


1. Wolfowitz got booed.
2. Netenyahu at a pro Israeli rally, now theres a surprise, and if Gephardt was there then I've lost all respect for him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Wolfowtiz got booed eh? Intersting. By whom? He is a character, and the mother of all Hawks in the Bush administration.
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Originally posted by mathiaslg:
<strong>

Wolfowtiz got booed eh? Intersting. By whom? He is a character, and the mother of all Hawks in the Bush administration.</strong><hr></blockquote>

By the people there, when he tried to hype up Israel and then also stipulate that the Palastinians have lost alot of people too.
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Originally posted by Raoul:
<strong>

By the people there, when he tried to hype up Israel and then also stipulate that the Palastinians have lost alot of people too.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Interesting. What was your take on this "gathering." I have only seen vague pieces of info about it.
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Its probably the result of Netenyahu's propaganda mission to the states during the incursion. Seems that Sharon sent him over smooth US public opinion via the US talkshow circuit while he (Sharon) sends the tanks into the west bank. Netenyahu and Alon Pinkus have been on seemingly every talk show. Same goes for Hassan Abdel-Rahman for the Palastinians.

Anyway...I'm off to watch Crossfire. :D
 
Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>Is it in the interests of the US to really put an end to this current crisis? Well that's debatable I guess - though I firmly believe it is. However could the visit of Powell be designed to appear to be doing something - as against actually achieving it? Let's face it if the US really wanted to stop Sharon - they could. His defiance of Bush's call for a withdrawal amounts to a raising of the stakes. When Powell visits - we'll see whether or not the US is prepared to call him.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I'm not all that surprised really, Powell has come and gone and Sharon continues - the US folded it's hand which implies what we knew all along - they were never sufficiently opposed to the actions of the IDF to intervene - Powell's visit appears to have been little more than window dressing...
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Originally posted by passiveman:
<strong>

Well I'm not all that surprised really, Powell has come and gone and Sharon continues - the US folded it's hand which implies what we knew all along - they were never sufficiently opposed to the actions of the IDF to intervene - Powell's visit appears to have been little more than window dressing...</strong><hr></blockquote>

What did you expect from Powell's trip ? He can't force Sharon to pull out of the West Bank. Its up to Sharon and the Israelies to decide what action to take.
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Raoul : Sharon was elected democratically by israelies & so is arafat.
trying to tribute america's full support to israel to the fact that israel is a democratic country ...is not accurate,,,remember both india & pakistan(before musharraf's coup) were considered democratic countries & that fact didn't stop america from imposing sanctions on both n the late 90's .
 
Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>Raoul : Sharon was elected democratically by israelies & so is arafat.
trying to tribute america's full support to israel to the fact that israel is a democratic country ...is not accurate,,,remember both india & pakistan(before musharraf's coup) were considered democratic countries & that fact didn't stop america from imposing sanctions on both n the late 90's .</strong><hr></blockquote>


India and Pakistan aren't exactly western style democracies. There's alot of corruption in both of those countries. ;)
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arafat was elected n jan 1996,,looots of international observers observed the proccess.
 
Originally posted by tareq abd albari:
<strong>arafat was elected n jan 1996,,looots of international observers observed the proccess.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'd hate to be the person running against Arafat. with his record an all... ;)
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