Isn't RW a bit more urgent than LW

Adnan said:
He's not as quick as Rashford and Martial in my opinion. There's also a big difference in what he did for the Brazilian youth teams in comparison to playing as a wide player for us. I doubt if he's even as quick as Mkhi. I think he's a central player and I watched him on a number of occasions in La Liga last season. I'd rather see Mkhi and Mata there than him. At least they're proven somewhat.
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Ive watched him in person live. He is quick. Did you watch that video? Thats quick, quick feet, quick movement, quick changes of direction.
Here he is taking a corner with his left foot for Brazil. 12 seconds in. He is naturally a right footer, but very good with his left and so from either side can take in swinging or out swinging corners.
He has shown in preseason he can do a number of different roles, he has defensive abilities to go with his attacking ones. Recognise whats right there in front of us, he has all the right attributes to do what a wide midfielder has to do and he is good enough.

 
Adnan said:
That still doesn't answer my question
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He is quicker than Mata. He spent most of his loan time playing in wide midfield positions.
Utd have an entire history of giving unproven players a chance. However he has proven himself to be able to handle himself at the top level.
When looking for wide midfielders then look for players who have the needed attributes to play out wide and he has all of them in abundance.
Too many people think in FM terms of having these predetermined rigid and blinkered views that a player is strictly this or strictly that and forget to look at a players actual abilities and how they can fit a problem.
 
Adnan said:
That still doesn't answer my question
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Your (and others) willingness to give Shaw what to me seems like unlimited time while the left back position is a clear weak spot for the squad doesn't really warrant a better answer.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to evaluate your opinion as deluded.
 
Stack said:
Ive watched him in person live. He is quick. Did you watch that video? Thats quick, quick feet, quick movement, quick changes of direction.
Here he is taking a corner with his left foot for Brazil. 12 seconds in. He is a right footer so from either side can take in swinging or out swinging corners.
He has shown in preseason he can do a number of different roles, he has defensive abilities to go with his attacking ones. Recognise whats right there in front of us, he has all the right attributes to do what a wide midfielder has to do and he is good enough.

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His pace is fine for a CAM, but you're seriously overating his pace as a supposed wide player. I think he has potential as a central player, but wouldn't look too much into his exploits in the youth tournament for Brazil, especially as far as gauging his pace. Anderson should be a reference point for you in that regard.
 
Ødegaard said:
Your (and others) willingness to give Shaw what to me seems like unlimited time while the left back position is a clear weak spot for the squad doesn't really warrant a better answer.

You're entitled to your opinion, just as I'm entitled to evaluate your opinion as deluded.
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I think he deserves a chance if he can overcome his injury problems. He seems to be back in training now so let's see if he can show us all why we paid such a high transfer fee for him in the first place. Might save us alot of money too.
 
Adnan said:
His pace is fine for a CAM, but you're seriously overating his pace as a supposed wide player. I think he has potential as a central player, but wouldn't look too much into his exploits in the youth tournament for Brazil, especially as far as gauging his pace. Anderson should be a reference point for you in that regard.
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You really havent watched him have you. He has pace. If you had actually watched his La Liga games you would have seen his pace. Have a look at his highlights from his game against Barcelona where he played out wide and went past Barcelona players with pace. Just to add, thats him playing at the top level against top quality footballers.
Your point about Anderson is a childish diversion and dumb.

Its bizarre you mentioned Mata out wide but want to dismiss Periera because he doesnt (in your opinion) have enough pace. Periera could do 100 meters in the same time Mata does 50 meters. 2 sets of rules here clearly, whatever one fits your agenda. Periera has pace, you have no idea what you are talking about if you think he doesnt whilst mentioning Mata as an option and using pace as an important attribute.
 
Stack said:
You really havent watched him have you. He has pace. If you had actually watched his La Liga games you would have seen his pace. Have a look at his highlights from his game against Barcelona where he played out wide and went past Barcelona players with pace. Just to add, thats him playing at the top level against top quality footballers.
Your point about Anderson is a childish diversion and dumb.

Its bizarre you mentioned Mata out wide but want to dismiss Periera because he doesnt (in your opinion) have enough pace. Periera could do 100 meters in the same time Mata does 50 meters. 2 sets of rules here clearly, whatever one fits your agenda. Periera has pace, you have no idea what you are talking about if you think he doesnt whilst mentioning Mata as an option and using pace as an important attribute.
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I've seen Pereira play more than most. Like I said before, you're seriously overating his pace as a potential wide player. Centrally it's fine, but out wide it's average compared to some of the player's we could potentially sign. I'm not Mata's biggest fan in a wide position, but would play him over Pereira if I had to pick one in that position. And if we do go with what we've got, then i'd rather see the express pace of Rashford at RW.
 
Adnan said:
I've seen Pereira play more than most. Like I said before, you're seriously overating his pace as a potential wide player. Centrally it's fine, but out wide it's average compared to some of the player's we could potentially sign. I'm not Mata's biggest fan in a wide position, but would play him over Pereira if I had to pick one in that position. And if we do go with what we've got, then i'd rather see the express pace of Rashford at RW.
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Your argument lacks logic.
Periera absolutely has enough pace for out wide. He is quick off the mark, has quick feet, is quick at full pace with the ball, recieves and turns quickly and has plenty of moves which he uses to get past defenders when dribbling. On top of that he can cross the ball with either foot and take free kicks with either foot.
I really dont believe you have seen him play much at all. I doubt you have ever seen him live either. I have. He is twice as quick as Mata and you are using that as the backbone of your argument.
Bizarre.
 
Adnan said:
I think he deserves a chance if he can overcome his injury problems. He seems to be back in training now so let's see if he can show us all why we paid such a high transfer fee for him in the first place. Might save us alot of money too.
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He's been back in training before. Never stopped him from getting injured again.
No issues with wanting to give him time as a potential backup who if things turn around can take the spot for himself, but not improving a trouble-area because he "deserves time" is just illogical for me. We should buy a top quality left back and have Shaw as one of 2 backups.
Just as a unrealistic example: Alaba, Shaw, Darmian

Having Shaw, Darmian, Blind, Rojo and the "talent of the month" is just poor for our quality in the position despite the overwhelming depth.
 
I completely agree that we need a RW more urgently than a LW. Our game is very narrow. Rashford and Martial tend to drift inwards to dribble and shoot. On the other hand, Mata and Mhiki are not touchline huggers either which makes our play a lot narrower and central. This works well when our full backs provide width which we tend to get it from Valencia on the right and I guess Blind on the left. But the thing is that the RW has become very predictable and it's easier to defend because more than likely most teams will mark Valencia and they know, he's the one who will cross it mainly. Our play does not have to be symmetrical. If we are losing width on the left, it makes sense to provide width on the right and we lack that out and out winger on the right. That's how Fergie had it when he had Nani and Valencia. I think we should consider Draxler or Lucas Moura.... since Dembele won't come and we probably won't even bid for the money being discussed.
 
Stack said:
Your argument lacks logic.
Periera absolutely has enough pace for out wide. He is quick off the mark, has quick feet, is quick at full pace with the ball, recieves and turns quickly and has plenty of moves which he uses to get past defenders when dribbling. On top of that he can cross the ball with either foot and take free kicks with either foot.
I really dont believe you have seen him play much at all. I doubt you have ever seen him live either. I have. He is twice as quick as Mata and you are using that as the backbone of your argument.
Bizarre.
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Not sure what him taking free kicks has anything to do with playing RW.

I never used Mata as a backbone of my argument. My point from the very first post I made in this thread was that we need a genuine winger who carries a threat with the ball and has pace. Someone with Martial, Rashford type of pace that would also have the trickery to cause trouble to the best fullbacks in the league. Pereira is quicker than Mata, but i'd trust Mata in that position ahead of Pereira because he's much more proven in that position in comparison to Pereira. The pace argument you make for Pereira isn't as significant as you're making out to be. I'd like to see us sign a speedster on the RW due to it being a upgrade to Mata etc there. Also seeing Pereira play live in the flesh doesn't make him any quicker than he is. He's quick enough for a central player, but as a wide player he's of average speed in comparison to Martial, Rashford etc.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Pace out wide is over rated. A certain Beckham proved this ages ago. It's intelligence and consistency that matter more than the pace.
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It helps when you have probably the most accurate foot in a generation, eh? Beckham wouldn't have been half the player he was if he could not place those 60 yard crosses on a pinhead. And score 5-6 goals a season from free kicks.

Intelligence and consistency wouldn't have helped him much.
 
Adnan said:
Not sure what him taking free kicks has anything to do with playing RW.

I never used Mata as a backbone of my argument. My point from the very first post I made in this thread was that we need a genuine winger who carries a threat with the ball and has pace. Someone with Martial, Rashford type of pace that would also have the trickery to cause trouble to the best fullbacks in the league. Pereira is quicker than Mata, but i'd trust Mata in that position ahead of Pereira because he's much more proven in that position in comparison to Pereira. The pace argument you make for Pereira isn't as significant as you're making out to be. I'd like to see us sign a speedster on the RW due to it being a upgrade to Mata etc there. Also seeing Pereira play live in the flesh doesn't make him any quicker than he is. He's quick enough for a central player, but as a wide player he's of average speed in comparison to Martial, Rashford etc.
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This really is bizarre.
The free kick thing is simply an add on to taking corners and another way of expressing that he can deliver a ball, something all wide players should be able to do but some of ours are absolutely awful at.
Im not the one who used pace as an argument to begin with, you were. You were the one who was using it as some sort of reason to dismiss Periera yet Mata has no pace. Your the one who was using pace as something significant. I simply disagree that Periera isnt fast enough to play out wide, he absolutely is.

He has every single attribute needed to play out wide in abundance. TBF I dont think many people yet realise what we have in Periera, He could become a high quality DM, CM, LW, RW, or play behind the strikers.

Im out. No point arguing this one with you because you argue for one point then claim the other person is the one making it a significant thing when they are simply countering your claim.
He's fast enough for out wide, easily.
 
MadMike said:
Well, we allegedly tried to sign Willian. He would have been good. Lucas Moura perhaps from PSG, decent stats and due a move. Ousmane Dembele, all be it very very expensive.

That's just scratching the surface, there's some options there.
Before Willian revealed some contact I suggested he would be a good option I still do.



Who says we don't? Have you seen the Eastern European national teams lately? They have are going through a talent drought.
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I don't watch much football outside of the Prem, Spain, Germany and the 'big' games from Italy Portugal and France so no I have'nt paid much attention to be honest, but surely there must be a gem waiting to be unearthed
 
Stack said:
This really is bizarre.
The free kick thing is simply an add on to taking corners and another way of expressing that he can deliver a ball, something all wide players should be able to do but some of ours are absolutely awful at.
Im not the one who used pace as an argument to begin with, you were. You were the one who was using it as some sort of reason to dismiss Periera yet Mata has no pace. Your the one who was using pace as something significant. I simply disagree that Periera isnt fast enough to play out wide, he absolutely is.

He has every single attribute needed to play out wide in abundance. TBF I dont think many people yet realise what we have in Periera, He could become a high quality DM, CM, LW, RW, or play behind the strikers.

Im out. No point arguing this one with you because you argue for one point then claim the other person is the one making it a significant thing when they are simply countering your claim.
He's fast enough for out wide, easily.
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The reason I was talking about a winger with pace was due to our options on the RW. Mata is someone who cuts in-field alot like Mkhi and it restricts our attack due to their in-ability to attack down the line, like we've seen in the past from Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis etc. All three player's had pace to burn and made us a much more menacing team.

If Pereira did play on the wing, then expect him to cut in-field alot due to him being a central player. He doesn't have the pace of Rashford, Martial or even a Keita Balde. His pace would be insignificant against EPL fullbacks,So my point is, Pereira being alittle quicker than Mata doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Eventhough I'm not a fan of Mata out wide, i'd still select him ahead of Pereira due to his experience and know how. Pereira has potential to be a very good central player but he's not a winger.
 
Adnan said:
The reason I was talking about a winger with pace was due to our options on the RW. Mata is someone who cuts in-field alot like Mkhi and it restricts our attack due to their in-ability to attack down the line, like we've seen in the past from Ronaldo, Giggs, Kanchelskis etc. All three player's had pace to burn and made us a much more menacing team.

If Pereira did play on the wing, then expect him to cut in-field alot due to him being a central player. He doesn't have the pace of Rashford, Martial or even a Keita Balde. His pace would be insignificant against EPL fullbacks,So my point is, Pereira being alittle quicker than Mata doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Eventhough I'm not a fan of Mata out wide, i'd still select him ahead of Pereira due to his experience and know how. Pereira has potential to be a very good central player but he's not a winger.
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Was reading your debate with Stacks and I agree with you. Although Per could certainly do a job out wide I see him more centrally or as Herreras understudy for the moment.
Although to add Rashford was initially a right sided winger and he can put in a very good delivery so really we have that option there already.
 
I'm hoping James Wilson comes back strong, I'll be keeping an eye on him for the U23. I believe he'd be perfect for us at RW.
 
wiz4231 said:
I'm hoping James Wilson comes back strong, I'll be keeping an eye on him for the U23. I believe he'd be perfect for us at RW.
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I believe like Lingard , Shaw , Smalling etc he should be nowhere near the first team or indeed the club
 
I don't see RW as easily upgradeable. We stupidly missed out on Dembele when he was at Rennes and it doesn't appear we're going to sign Griezmann or Bale this summer. Dybala might be best as a 10 but being left-footed, nimble and all around great that could work but is even more unrealistic. We should have just loaned out or kept Di Maria if at all possible, but that ship has sailed.

I think people are discounting Rashford playing out right too much and I wouldn't be shocked if Mourinho is reasonably comfortable with our RW options.

-Mata is first choice RW when we play 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams

-Mkhitaryan will get the chance to be the RW when we play 4-3-3, and he'll look to come inside more when we have possession.

-Rashford could be the RW in big games if Mkhitaryan isn't consistently effective there. I continue to believe Mourinho trusts and rates him highly. Rashford has the size and mobility to be useful defensively and he's not been bad at tracking fullbacks. He would provide pace on the break, has a lovely cross on him and gives us a good finisher for a winger (if average for a 9). Mourinho did well using Etoo on the RW at Inter in a similar role.

Obviously, this latter option would require either Martial to win the LW job or Mkhitaryan to prove more effective at LW than RW, which did sort of happen last year and led to Mkhitaryan playing very little at RW at the end of the season and getting his time out left and centrally (which I must confess I had forgotten but some poster here laid out earlier this summer).

TLDR: Mata in easier games where we need possession more than width, Mkhitaryan could still be a star there and Rashford is a better option in tougher games than people think
 
NoPace said:
I don't see RW as easily upgradeable. We stupidly missed out on Dembele when he was at Rennes and it doesn't appear we're going to sign Griezmann or Bale this summer. Dybala might be best as a 10 but being left-footed, nimble and all around great that could work but is even more unrealistic. We should have just loaned out or kept Di Maria if at all possible, but that ship has sailed.

I think people are discounting Rashford playing out right too much and I wouldn't be shocked if Mourinho is reasonably comfortable with our RW options.

-Mata is first choice RW when we play 4-2-3-1 against weaker teams

-Mkhitaryan will get the chance to be the RW when we play 4-3-3, and he'll look to come inside more when we have possession.

-Rashford could be the RW in big games if Mkhitaryan isn't consistently effective there. I continue to believe Mourinho trusts and rates him highly. Rashford has the size and mobility to be useful defensively and he's not been bad at tracking fullbacks. He would provide pace on the break, has a lovely cross on him and gives us a good finisher for a winger (if average for a 9). Mourinho did well using Etoo on the RW at Inter in a similar role.

Obviously, this latter option would require either Martial to win the LW job or Mkhitaryan to prove more effective at LW than RW, which did sort of happen last year and led to Mkhitaryan playing very little at RW at the end of the season and getting his time out left and centrally (which I must confess I had forgotten but some poster here laid out earlier this summer).

TLDR: Mata in easier games where we need possession more than width, Mkhitaryan could still be a star there and Rashford is a better option in tougher games than people think
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Dembele chose to go to Dortmund, there was plenty of interest from big clubs. The Puma connection probably helped too..
 
MadMike, post: 21343203, member: 99669"]It helps when you have probably the most accurate foot in a generation, eh?.......
.
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And who made it so? Beckham with his intelligence and his
consistent hard work that made him consistent in his delivery. He wasn't even the only good winger of his era who relied on intelligence above pace. There was Bernd Schnieder and Camoranesi. Intelligence trumps pace every time in a winger. That is why you'd rather have a Valencia at his best over an Aaron Lennon. A Giggs over a Rommedahl.
 
I said this on the Perisic thread the other time. An athletic LB that gets up and down the wing and can cross -a la Rose, will eliminate any need for a RW or LW. With the LB and Valencia providing width, we can comfortably play any of Martial, Rashford, Mkhi or Mata in a 4231 or 433 without having to worry about width.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
And who made it so? Beckham with his intelligence and his
consistent hard work that made him consistent in his delivery. He wasn't even the only good winger of his era who relied on intelligence above pace. There was Bernd Schnieder and Camoranesi. Intelligence trumps pace every time in a winger. That is why you'd rather have a Valencia at his best over an Aaron Lennon. A Giggs over a Rommedahl.
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Beckham was good with his delivery from the right, but I would take CR7 over him any day of the week.
 
Adnan said:
No I'm not, I'm saying, pace with intelligence trumps all.
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Of course it does. That's why I said pace alone is over rated for a winger role. I'd rather have an intelligent player with decent pace ala Mhikitaryan over a pure speed merchant like Walcott. And I'd kill for a winger with the brains to match their pure speed.
 
Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Of course it does. That's why I said pace alone is over rated for a winger role. I'd rather have an intelligent player with decent pace ala Mhikitaryan over a pure speed merchant like Walcott. And I'd kill for a winger with the brains to match their pure speed.
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Don't think anyone has advocated the signings of speed merchants like Walcott or Adama Traore.

Robert Pires, Ribery, Robben just to name a few, are the profile of player i'm talking about. It's an instant improvement on a player that is disadvantaged by a lack of pace. Not only are they intelligent, they also have the ability to dribble past player's with pace or using trickery.
 
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To be honest we really do need two wingers, and maybe a new LB.

The spine of the team looks solid now but our wing options bar Martial aren't the greatest. None of them are even really wingers, strikers or no10's playing out of position.

Never would have thought we would find ourselves in a situation where Manchester United of all teams have no fecking wingers.
 
We'll get Justin Kluivert next Summer. Until then, the front 6 options are good enough. We need to strengthen at fullback, though.
 
Akshay said:
I think Mata actually plays very well off the right. He's not an out and out winger but we don't need that anyway. The rightback should be the one providing width and Valencia does that adequately. At the moment we have adequate numbers in attack, it's left back that's the primary issue if Shaw can't step it up this season.
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Mostly agree......except Mata on the right......

In a 4-2-3-1, Mata is good/very good, mainly because we mostly play 4-2-3-1 against easy teams and hence we are more offensive, that we have more number of attackers up front, which is "close to" the best scenario for a "#10 winger" like Mata who has more options to pass to, link up play, and cut inside with Valencia attacking more, etc.....

However, in 4-3-3 when we play against big team, our "#10 winger" of Mkhi/Mata generally underperform. That said, this season could be different with......

1. Our midfield trio significantly strengthened with the arrival of Matic freeing up Herrera Pogba (instead of Pogba Fellaini last season) to join the attack and support our wingers
2. Lukaku stretching the defense freeing up more space...
3. Hopefully Jose don't play as defensive as last season against big teams that partly negatively affect our attackers, like at times our "#10 winger need to beat one or two players on their own, which is not their best thing to do.


Agree with LB. If Shaw doesn't step up, LB will be our primary issue, compared to RW. I think Jose is betting heavily on Shaw
 
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We have Valencia on the right. Jose doesn't want the same thing from our LW and RW. He understands the quality of Rashford and Martial. He wanted Perisic because he offered something different. Rashford can still play on the right and Martial can still play upfront alongside Lukaku if we ever choose to play that way.
 
Why couldnt we play a front 3 of Martial Lukaku Rashford?

I am sure Rashford being good with both feet is better suited to making a switch across the pitch and with a midfield of Pogba, Mata/Herrera and Matic behind them I think they would be potent as hell! My only concern is not enough industry comes from LB position. Cheeky bid for Marcelo anyone? lol
 
Darius_MUFC1991 said:
Why couldnt we play a front 3 of Martial Lukaku Rashford?

I am sure Rashford being good with both feet is better suited to making a switch across the pitch and with a midfield of Pogba, Mata/Herrera and Matic behind them I think they would be potent as hell! My only concern is not enough industry comes from LB position. Cheeky bid for Marcelo anyone? lol
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Personally I would love to see that.

Although there are a lot argument against it (there is another thread on this), like no creativity, no composure, not proven......etc, I believe Jose has this system in mind, just that he needs to test drive first.

We probably could see it in the next few games from like 60min or so when we have the easy fixtures until Oct.
 
ManuMou said:
Personally I would love to see that.

Although there are a lot argument against it (there is another thread on this), like no creativity, no composure, not proven......etc, I believe Jose has this system in mind, just that he needs to test drive first.

We probably could see it in the next few games from like 60min or so when we have the easy fixtures until Oct.
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Agreed. Would really like Mhki to influence games on the right far more regularly but the reality is we need a strong choice for there and LB imo.

Other than that the squad is very well balanced and for me the best in the league.
 
Daley Blind did a good job on the weekend but he will come across quicker opponents and will get found out. The jury is out on Shaw so yes we need a new LB.
 
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