ISIS in Iraq and Syria

Well of course like much of history the situation here is complex and has a long and textured point of origin, I will give you a summary as best I can:

The middle east is a region which was, like all of the world outside of Europe, colonised by European forces. The borders of the Middle East are essentially makeshift, and Iraq was a state founded by the Sykes-Picot agreement by France and Britian. This artificial drawing of boarders means that in many middle eastern regions there is a mixture of different race, religions and creeds. Iraq sits at the forefront of such nations, with a minority Sunni, Majority Shi'ite Muslim demographic. Not to mention Kurds, Yazidis etc.

This scenario is something which has caused civil wars all over the post-colonial world. What makes the Middle East more prominent is the level of interference it has received in its post-colonial era. It has been subject to constant disruption, puppetry and occupation by Western Nations and many postulate the reasons as to why. Some would say that Oil makes the region geo-politically relevant, others that places like America have a perceived duty to Israel and will therefore destablise the region as much as possible.

Over the years there have been many oppressive, regressive Islamic regimes that have sprung up in the region and which have been supported by the Americans (at least in their preliminary stages) such as the Shah of Iran. These were regimes which stood against values of individual rights, and were puritanical and despotic in their views of leadership. Yet they were allowed to thrive and were supported for reasons we can only speculate on, though one would assume it was for some sort of financial or political gain.

Anyway lets skip to Saddam Hussein. Saddam was a Sunni and by virtue of the fact that Iraq was majority Sh'ite he ruled with an iron fist to keep power. An inevitability in an artificial state. Unfortunately the will to power in a state which is not self-determined and is made up of many sects is through use of oppression. Under Saddam, and with oil, the nation of Iraq thrived. Saddam now harbored expansionist aims. Typically the Americans supported him (armed him) as he went into invade Iran (no longer friends with the US). This was in spite of the fact that Saddam was clearly no saint. Eventually this American foreign policy changed when Saddam entered Kuwait with his expansionist aims and the first Gulf War kicked off.

Obviously the Americans left Saddam in charge, much against the wishes I am sure of many senior Americans due to international opinions on the conflict. So what did they do instead? They imposed economic sanctions so severe on Iraq that the country went into severe economic decline which resulted in the preventable deaths of over 1 million innocent Iraqis. This is relevant because this pro-Israeli imperialist aggression from the USA, allowed a form of hatred to rise so much in the region it has essentially spawned Al-Qaeda and Isis and the like.

So now we have a scenario in the late 90's early 2000's were America are squeezing the life out of some of the Middle East. Not only that but they decide to get into bed with some fairly backward (at least by American ideologies) states like Saudi Arabia. So essentially you have the more secular states like Syria and Iraq on the Americans list of hated countries, and complicit Islamic states like Saudi Arabia as their best friends. In my opinion this is because America wants nothing more than 'yes' men and instability in the region. Of course in these countries, which are traditionalist Muslim, America is still not liked by the masses even if they are in bed with the ruling elite, Al-Qaeda is essentially a Saudi entity, and these are individuals who due to the actions of America/Israel in their backyard have formed Jihadist tendencies and strike out with viscous acts of violence (9/11). Of course America can't invade Saudi Arabia, where the violence came from. So they use this as an opportunity to go after Saddam, who had absolutely nothing to do with this Jihadists movement. Sure enough they occupy Iraq and depose him. Then they continue to occupy, meanwhile giving more proverbial ammunition to Jihadis by being an occupier in their region again. These states like Saudi Arabia and Qatar have rich individuals, who are anti-Israel and anti-America and they start pumping money into these Islamo-Fascist institutions like Al-Qaeda.

Eventually the Americans have to leave, and at this same time populist uprisings start happening in the Arab world. Eventually this spreads to Syria and eventually an anti-regime civil war is hijacked by these well funded, well armed Jihadis. Who eventually become the dominant player in Syria, and then move into Iraq which is now not occupied by the USA. So out of these hardcore Islamic groups spawns ISIS. The most war mongering and vengeful of them all. Who are Sunni (salafist/wahabist) groups hellbent on destroying anyone who doesn't believe in their strain of Islam. They are the spawn of years of horrible Western foreign policy/occupation in the region. But I am not excusing their behavior, they are cnuts.


@Kaos @Raoul I'm sure would explain some areas a little better, as would I but there is a lot to type.
Thanks a lot, much appreciated mate :)
 
Totally agree that these barbarians shouldn't get any publicity.

I seriously doubt the wisdom - or the point - in getting involved at all. Humanitarian aid should be managed by the UN. Look at the history - the Americans armed Saddam, then took him on a few years later. And in the past couple of years, we were supporting the rebels in Libya and Syria, who appear to have mutated into ISIS. It doesn't make any difference who we help. Sooner or later they'll turn on us. There's too much history and they have long memories. We haven't been blameless, but I wonder if they even need an excuse now.
 
Totally agree that these barbarians shouldn't get any publicity.

I seriously doubt the wisdom - or the point - in getting involved at all. Humanitarian aid should be managed by the UN. Look at the history - the Americans armed Saddam, then took him on a few years later. And in the past couple of years, we were supporting the rebels in Libya and Syria, who appear to have mutated into ISIS. It doesn't make any difference who we help. Sooner or later they'll turn on us. There's too much history and they have long memories. We haven't been blameless, but I wonder if they even need an excuse now.

I'd go as far to say that we have been the root cause. Has there ever been a bigger terrorist state than the US?

How is The Bay of Pigs invasion and maintaining control of a disputed part of Cuba, plus imposing economic sanctions on that nation, not a form of terror? For what crime did Cuba pay? The crime of believing a different economic ideology.

Same goes for the American intervention into Vietnam.

What excuse can they give for their continued support of dictators and despots until such a point that public opinion cannot be risked any more? See Pinochet or Guatemala or the Middle East.

American foreign policy has created this environment. It is not a case of 'who we help' turns against us. It is a case that we are always the antagonists or supporting the antagonists. If this sounds like hyperbole just take a moment to read through this think-tanks ideas..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

A report advocating American war to progress the ideals of the homeland. Which is a smokescreen for profiteering out of conflict surely?

That think-tank included Rumsfield and Cheney and all those other henchman of the Bush administration who must have creamed in their pants when they realised that they could have a 'war on terror'.
 
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The business of America is war. Look at their armed (and sometimes covert) conflicts in the last 70 years; it's one after another.
 
I may not have understood correctly but it all comes down to money as far as the US is concerned?

They want instability in the region so they can profit from the ensuing conflict?
 
Well of course like much of history the situation here is complex and has a long and textured point of origin, I will give you a summary as best I can:

The middle east is a region which was, like all of the world outside of Europe, colonised by European forces. The borders of the Middle East are essentially makeshift, and Iraq was a state founded by the Sykes-Picot agreement by France and Britian. This artificial drawing of boarders means that in many middle eastern regions there is a mixture of different race, religions and creeds. Iraq sits at the forefront of such nations, with a minority Sunni, Majority Shi'ite Muslim demographic. Not to mention Kurds, Yazidis etc.

This scenario is something which has caused civil wars all over the post-colonial world. What makes the Middle East more prominent is the level of interference it has received in its post-colonial era. It has been subject to constant disruption, puppetry and occupation by Western Nations and many postulate the reasons as to why. Some would say that Oil makes the region geo-politically relevant, others that places like America have a perceived duty to Israel and will therefore destablise the region as much as possible.

Over the years there have been many oppressive, regressive Islamic regimes that have sprung up in the region and which have been supported by the Americans (at least in their preliminary stages) such as the Shah of Iran. These were regimes which stood against values of individual rights, and were puritanical and despotic in their views of leadership. Yet they were allowed to thrive and were supported for reasons we can only speculate on, though one would assume it was for some sort of financial or political gain.

Anyway lets skip to Saddam Hussein. Saddam was a Sunni and by virtue of the fact that Iraq was majority Sh'ite he ruled with an iron fist to keep power. An inevitability in an artificial state. Unfortunately the will to power in a state which is not self-determined and is made up of many sects is through use of oppression. Under Saddam, and with oil, the nation of Iraq thrived. Saddam now harbored expansionist aims. Typically the Americans supported him (armed him) as he went into invade Iran (no longer friends with the US). This was in spite of the fact that Saddam was clearly no saint. Eventually this American foreign policy changed when Saddam entered Kuwait with his expansionist aims and the first Gulf War kicked off.

Obviously the Americans left Saddam in charge, much against the wishes I am sure of many senior Americans due to international opinions on the conflict. So what did they do instead? They imposed economic sanctions so severe on Iraq that the country went into severe economic decline which resulted in the preventable deaths of over 1 million innocent Iraqis. This is relevant because this pro-Israeli imperialist aggression from the USA, allowed a form of hatred to rise so much in the region it has essentially spawned Al-Qaeda and Isis and the like.

So now we have a scenario in the late 90's early 2000's were America are squeezing the life out of some of the Middle East. Not only that but they decide to get into bed with some fairly backward (at least by American ideologies) states like Saudi Arabia. So essentially you have the more secular states like Syria and Iraq on the Americans list of hated countries, and complicit Islamic states like Saudi Arabia as their best friends. In my opinion this is because America wants nothing more than 'yes' men and instability in the region. Of course in these countries, which are traditionalist Muslim, America is still not liked by the masses even if they are in bed with the ruling elite, Al-Qaeda is essentially a Saudi entity, and these are individuals who due to the actions of America/Israel in their backyard have formed Jihadist tendencies and strike out with viscous acts of violence (9/11). Of course America can't invade Saudi Arabia, where the violence came from. So they use this as an opportunity to go after Saddam, who had absolutely nothing to do with this Jihadists movement. Sure enough they occupy Iraq and depose him. Then they continue to occupy, meanwhile giving more proverbial ammunition to Jihadis by being an occupier in their region again. These states like Saudi Arabia and Qatar have rich individuals, who are anti-Israel and anti-America and they start pumping money into these Islamo-Fascist institutions like Al-Qaeda.

Eventually the Americans have to leave, and at this same time populist uprisings start happening in the Arab world. Eventually this spreads to Syria and eventually an anti-regime civil war is hijacked by these well funded, well armed Jihadis. Who eventually become the dominant player in Syria, and then move into Iraq which is now not occupied by the USA. So out of these hardcore Islamic groups spawns ISIS. The most war mongering and vengeful of them all. Who are Sunni (salafist/wahabist) groups hellbent on destroying anyone who doesn't believe in their strain of Islam. They are the spawn of years of horrible Western foreign policy/occupation in the region. But I am not excusing their behavior, they are cnuts.


@Kaos @Raoul I'm sure would explain some areas a little better, as would I but there is a lot to type.
It's a pretty neat little overview of the whole background of parts of the conflict, but you don't really justify or explain why you believe Israel and the US are interested in the region beeing unstable. To me that sounds like something bordering on a conspiracy theory. Would you explain what you mean?

I think you also should focus more on the colonial past of the region, and especially the role of the British. The way they, and the French, fecked everyone over with the Sykes-Picot agreement and the crazy borders is one of the root causes of the present situation- as you touch upon. I also think the way Britain handled Palestine for so many years, and just left the problem to a new born UN, is one of the many reasons the place is a mess today.

I'm pretty unimpressed with the governors of the once great British empire to be honest, don't get me started on India for instance.
 
I like FortBoyard :)

At the risk of coming across a bit strange. Have always dipped into the CE forum. Only ever found you and one or two others to have any sense. Never bothered posting as ive never really had the drive to.

I may not have understood correctly but it all comes down to money as far as the US is concerned?

They want instability in the region so they can profit from the ensuing conflict?

Well there are 3 things I think which play a role.

1) Genuine stupidity, the nicest of all the logic, they back the wrong horse based on bad intelligence or inference. Or they take the enemy of my enemy is my friend approach and end up with a worse monster.
2) The more subverted Zionist approach. It is no secret of a Americas interest in Israeli affairs due to the large Jewish lobby in the US. Israel is obviously despised by the Arab states. The best way to prevent another war from a coalition of Arab states is to cause in-fighting and disharmony.
3) The most subversive. The economics of petrodollars (Gulf is basically a large oil well) and the finances of an autocratic economy of the militarisation means that an America which has control or influence in some areas of the Gulf and war in others is an economically satiated America.
 
It's a pretty neat little overview of the whole background of parts of the conflict, but you don't really justify or explain why you believe Israel and the US are interested in the region beeing unstable. To me that sounds like something bordering on a conspiracy theory. Would you explain what you mean?

I think you also should focus more on the colonial past of the region, and especially the role of the British. The way they, and the French, fecked everyone over with the Sykes-Picot agreement and the crazy borders is one of the root causes of the present situation- as you touch upon. I also think the way Britain handled Palestine for so many years, and just left the problem to a new born UN, is one of the many reasons the place is a mess today.

I'm pretty unimpressed with the governors of the once great British empire to be honest, don't get me started on India for instance.


America and Israel are inseparable allies.

Israel is a huge enemy of the Arab states.

America constantly deposes or opposes anti-Israeli regimes. Supports neutral ones (neutral is a weak term here, no arab state openly is neutral to Israel, some though clearly are not as concerned as others).

It's not conspiracy, its overt foreign policy.

You hold the role of the British role in too high a regard. It's the Indian in you. That is now a minor factor. The stream from which the torrential river now flows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–Saudi_Arabia_relations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran–Israel_relations
 
Well there are 3 things I think which play a role.

1) Genuine stupidity, the nicest of all the logic, they back the wrong horse based on bad intelligence or inference. Or they take the enemy of my enemy is my friend approach and end up with a worse monster.
2) The more subverted Zionist approach. It is no secret of a Americas interest in Israeli affairs due to the large Jewish lobby in the US. Israel is obviously despised by the Arab states. The best way to prevent another war from a coalition of Arab states is to cause in-fighting and disharmony.
3) The most subversive. The economics of petrodollars (Gulf is basically a large oil well) and the finances of an autocratic economy of the militarisation means that an America which has control or influence in some areas of the Gulf and war in others is an economically satiated America.
Cool thanks.
 
I'd go as far to say that we have been the root cause. Has there ever been a bigger terrorist state than the US?

How is The Bay of Pigs invasion and maintaining control of a disputed part of Cuba, plus imposing economic sanctions on that nation, not a form of terror? For what crime did Cuba pay? The crime of believing a different economic ideology.

Same goes for the American intervention into Vietnam.

What excuse can they give for their continued support of dictators and despots until such a point that public opinion cannot be risked any more? See Pinochet or Guatemala or the Middle East.

American foreign policy has created this environment. It is not a case of 'who we help' turns against us. It is a case that we are always the antagonists or supporting the antagonists. If this sounds like hyperbole just take a moment to read through this think-tanks ideas..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

A report advocating American war to progress the ideals of the homeland. Which is a smokescreen for profiteering out of conflict surely?

That think-tank included Rumsfield and Cheney and all those other henchman of the Bush administration who must have creamed in their pants when they realised that they could have a 'war on terror'.

Aside from them (e.g. Halliburton) I'm not sure who has profited from the "war on terror". Certainly not the American people as a whole.
 
Aside from them (e.g. Halliburton) I'm not sure who has profited from the "war on terror". Certainly not the American people as a whole.

And when ever has the concerns of the American people as a whole been of a concern to the ruling elite?
 
At the risk of coming across a bit strange. Have always dipped into the CE forum. Only ever found you and one or two others to have any sense. Never bothered posting as ive never really had the drive to.



Well there are 3 things I think which play a role.

1) Genuine stupidity, the nicest of all the logic, they back the wrong horse based on bad intelligence or inference. Or they take the enemy of my enemy is my friend approach and end up with a worse monster.
2) The more subverted Zionist approach. It is no secret of a Americas interest in Israeli affairs due to the large Jewish lobby in the US. Israel is obviously despised by the Arab states. The best way to prevent another war from a coalition of Arab states is to cause in-fighting and disharmony.
3) The most subversive. The economics of petrodollars (Gulf is basically a large oil well) and the finances of an autocratic economy of the militarisation means that an America which has control or influence in some areas of the Gulf and war in others is an economically satiated America.
This control of oil argument always has me wondering. I'm yet to see any positive impact from a war/conflict in an oil region. Prices always go one way with instability and its not down. And does America really profit from this? Seems that oil companies profit, many (most?) of which are not American. e.g. Shell/BP.
 
At the risk of coming across a bit strange. Have always dipped into the CE forum. Only ever found you and one or two others to have any sense. Never bothered posting as ive never really had the drive to.

Well post more often! You seem to have taken a back quite a few of us with your insights.
 
Agreed, to quote a person I detest (Cheney) after being told the American people wanted no part of a war... "so"

:lol: at least he doesn't really try to hide it.

I've learned to detest the false promise of Obama a lot more than the Neo-Cons. Even if he is the lesser of two evils.
 
It's nothing new. The wars the US has engaged in are generally not fought by the politicians own kids. "I ain't no senator's son" in that song by CCR rings a bit true when that comes to mind.
 
And when ever has the concerns of the American people as a whole been of a concern to the ruling elite?
Fair question. Most Americans have little interest in what happens elsewhere because they are insulated by geographical distance from the pressures of international affairs. That's a mismatch with their interventionist government. A charitable explanation is that Americans are naturally helpful people (which they are) and want to offer their services. The problem is that Americans like to see conflicts as good guys versus bad guys when the reality is more subtle, and frequently end up making poor choices. This black and white view of the world is pretty clear in their approach towards the middle east.
 
The only suprise here is that it has taken 40-odd pages to finally find the cause for Islamic fundamentalism. Israel and the "Zionists".
 
Well of course like much of history the situation here is complex and has a long and textured point of origin, I will give you a summary as best I can:

The middle east is a region which was, like all of the world outside of Europe, colonised by European forces. The borders of the Middle East are essentially makeshift, and Iraq was a state founded by the Sykes-Picot agreement by France and Britian. This artificial drawing of boarders means that in many middle eastern regions there is a mixture of different race, religions and creeds. Iraq sits at the forefront of such nations, with a minority Sunni, Majority Shi'ite Muslim demographic. Not to mention Kurds, Yazidis etc.

This scenario is something which has caused civil wars all over the post-colonial world. What makes the Middle East more prominent is the level of interference it has received in its post-colonial era. It has been subject to constant disruption, puppetry and occupation by Western Nations and many postulate the reasons as to why. Some would say that Oil makes the region geo-politically relevant, others that places like America have a perceived duty to Israel and will therefore destablise the region as much as possible.

Over the years there have been many oppressive, regressive Islamic regimes that have sprung up in the region and which have been supported by the Americans (at least in their preliminary stages) such as the Shah of Iran. These were regimes which stood against values of individual rights, and were puritanical and despotic in their views of leadership. Yet they were allowed to thrive and were supported for reasons we can only speculate on, though one would assume it was for some sort of financial or political gain.

Anyway lets skip to Saddam Hussein. Saddam was a Sunni and by virtue of the fact that Iraq was majority Sh'ite he ruled with an iron fist to keep power. An inevitability in an artificial state. Unfortunately the will to power in a state which is not self-determined and is made up of many sects is through use of oppression. Under Saddam, and with oil, the nation of Iraq thrived. Saddam now harbored expansionist aims. Typically the Americans supported him (armed him) as he went into invade Iran (no longer friends with the US). This was in spite of the fact that Saddam was clearly no saint. Eventually this American foreign policy changed when Saddam entered Kuwait with his expansionist aims and the first Gulf War kicked off.

Obviously the Americans left Saddam in charge, much against the wishes I am sure of many senior Americans due to international opinions on the conflict. So what did they do instead? They imposed economic sanctions so severe on Iraq that the country went into severe economic decline which resulted in the preventable deaths of over 1 million innocent Iraqis. This is relevant because this pro-Israeli imperialist aggression from the USA, allowed a form of hatred to rise so much in the region it has essentially spawned Al-Qaeda and Isis and the like.

So now we have a scenario in the late 90's early 2000's were America are squeezing the life out of some of the Middle East. Not only that but they decide to get into bed with some fairly backward (at least by American ideologies) states like Saudi Arabia. So essentially you have the more secular states like Syria and Iraq on the Americans list of hated countries, and complicit Islamic states like Saudi Arabia as their best friends. In my opinion this is because America wants nothing more than 'yes' men and instability in the region. Of course in these countries, which are traditionalist Muslim, America is still not liked by the masses even if they are in bed with the ruling elite, Al-Qaeda is essentially a Saudi entity, and these are individuals who due to the actions of America/Israel in their backyard have formed Jihadist tendencies and strike out with viscous acts of violence (9/11). Of course America can't invade Saudi Arabia, where the violence came from. So they use this as an opportunity to go after Saddam, who had absolutely nothing to do with this Jihadists movement. Sure enough they occupy Iraq and depose him. Then they continue to occupy, meanwhile giving more proverbial ammunition to Jihadis by being an occupier in their region again. These states like Saudi Arabia and Qatar have rich individuals, who are anti-Israel and anti-America and they start pumping money into these Islamo-Fascist institutions like Al-Qaeda.

Eventually the Americans have to leave, and at this same time populist uprisings start happening in the Arab world. Eventually this spreads to Syria and eventually an anti-regime civil war is hijacked by these well funded, well armed Jihadis. Who eventually become the dominant player in Syria, and then move into Iraq which is now not occupied by the USA. So out of these hardcore Islamic groups spawns ISIS. The most war mongering and vengeful of them all. Who are Sunni (salafist/wahabist) groups hellbent on destroying anyone who doesn't believe in their strain of Islam. They are the spawn of years of horrible Western foreign policy/occupation in the region. But I am not excusing their behavior, they are cnuts.
@Kaos @Raoul I'm sure would explain some areas a little better, as would I but there is a lot to type.
Fantastic summary/post. You should post more often.
 
The only suprise here is that it has taken 40-odd pages to finally find the cause for Islamic fundamentalism. Israel and the "Zionists".

Do not be silly, if you take that as the sole point from the discussion then you are just trying to cause sparks.

Of course Israels presence, whether that be right or wrong, has caused exacerbation of extremism in the Middle East.

But that is by no means the only factor.
 
It wasn't so long ago that Israel was the only (obviously, other than Muslims themselves) target of Islamic nutters. Terrorists were called freedom fighters in Western media outlets, and we were urged to condemn suicide bombings but at the same time understand the motives. Well, it didn't take too long in historic terms for the shoe to be on the other foot. Fair play for still understanding the motives. Many others understand that the culprits never needed an excuse.

Israel has been here for 66 years now. Zionism for more than a century. The rise of Islamic fundamentalism doesn't correlate with the timetable. What does better though, is the idiocy of the attempts to bring democracy to the Arab world. The delusional GWB and Obama have destabilised the region, which ended up in millions of casualties. Much to the dismay of many, these now include a couple of Westerners.

Shoving Israel into this and blaming me for "causing sparks" is dishonest at best. How on earth does instability in Syria, Jordan and Egypt benefit Israel. Obama's support of the MB in Egypt was in agreemnt with Israel's interests? Trying to force Turkish/Qatari mediation duirng recent ceasfire negotiations did? Perhaps Condy's insistance on Hamas participation in the elections to the Palestinian parliament did?

Last but not least, it's the Arabs themselves we should be talking about. Let's not deny them some of the credit for what is going on too. I can think of many other nations that will give up on the chance to kickstart genocidal wars even during political unrest.
 
I pretty much agree with everything you say there.

I made Western involvement the centerpiece of my argument.

I don't think Obama has acted very much in the interests of Israel, or at least didn't at some points. Although this is certainly a deviation from the norms of American governance.

Israel is part of a large set of factors, undeniably. Although I can see that this is a red rag to you, as you are battle hardened to these discussions about Israel.

Can you answer me your opinion on this Holyland... Why has the middle east been the theatre for so much American interference in the last few decades. Why did the world not interfere in Sudan or Rwanda etc?
 
HR, other than Iraq, how exactly have America tried to bring democracy to the Arab world in a macro sense? Is this a continuation of your theory that America either brought the Arab revolutions to bear or that they had control over the protestors somehow?

And how do you not get that continued support of despotic regimes in the Middle East does nothing but make the local population more extreme?
 
HR, other than Iraq, how exactly have America tried to bring democracy to the Arab world in a macro sense? Is this a continuation of your theory that America either brought the Arab revolutions to bear or that they had control over the protestors somehow?

And how do you not get that continued support of despotic regimes in the Middle East does nothing but make the local population more extreme?

This is America's legacy in the Middle East, not democracy.
 
I pretty much agree with everything you say there.

I made Western involvement the centerpiece of my argument.

I don't think Obama has acted very much in the interests of Israel, or at least didn't at some points. Although this is certainly a deviation from the norms of American governance.

Israel is part of a large set of factors, undeniably. Although I can see that this is a red rag to you, as you are battle hardened to these discussions about Israel.

Can you answer me your opinion on this Holyland... Why has the middle east been the theatre for so much American interference in the last few decades. Why did the world not interfere in Sudan or Rwanda etc?

It's a very good question, and I'd even go to finer resolution on that one. The world doesn't really care about the 100,000s of dead Syrians or the millions of refugees from the conflict there, neither it gives a shit about the 100,000s dead Iraqis. Neither brought mass demonstrations to the streets of Western capitals or dominated meadia headlines to the extent that other smaller-scale conflicts did. Basically, the world don't give a shit about genocides.

American interference here over the last 4-5 decades has mainly been influenced by the smell of oil.
 
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HR, other than Iraq, how exactly have America tried to bring democracy to the Arab world in a macro sense? Is this a continuation of your theory that America either brought the Arab revolutions to bear or that they had control over the protestors somehow?

And how do you not get that continued support of despotic regimes in the Middle East does nothing but make the local population more extreme?

Other than Iraq? If Saddam was still there do you think Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and potentially Jordan would have been in the mess that they are today? How about Hamas' control of the Gaza Strip, leading to several violent conflicts with Israel? Obama perhaps is not the cause for the Spring Arabs brought on themselves, but he has definitely become a symbol of the collapse of Americal influence in what were freindly Arab countries. Obama handed Mubarak, formerly a staunch US ally, to the MB on a plate and then did his best to undermine Al-Sisi from regaining control. Escalation here in the ME is at least partly a result of "moderate regimes" loss of trust in the US, a former ally. Little wonder that more than ever before oil money is channelled to non-state armed forces spreading terror when diplomatic leverages are no longer an option. A $2bn arms deal between Egypt and Russia is another sign of Obama's administration ME wonders.

I'll be frank with you about Arab extremism. As an Israeli I doubt there's a great difference to us. Arabs were extreme in their anti-Israeli sentiments before Islamic fundamentalism erupted. The fact that the West is now shit scared because this crap is soon going to served closer to home is the least of my concerns. At least some Israelis even take some pleasure at the prospect. Here it was all doom and gloom a couple of years ago when Secular Arab regimes fell, and neighbouring countries went into chaos. However, two years later we see collaboration (if quiet) between Israel, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Gulf States. This area is full of dangers, but also opportunities. I doubt the IDF could be dismantled anytime soon, but prospects for a somewhat better future are not that far fetched. Until shit hits the fan again, of course.
 
It's a very good question, and I'd even go to finer resolution on that one. The world doesn't really care about the 100,000s of dead Syrian or the millions of refugees from the conflict there, neither it gives a shit about the 100,000s dead Iraqis. Neither brought mass demonstrations to the streets of Western capitals or dominated meadia headlines to the extent that other smaller-scale conflicts did. Basically, the world don't give a shit about genocides.

American interference here over the last 4-5 decades has mainly been influenced by the smell of oil.

I asked about this above. I'll copy paste here. Love to know your take on it....


This control of oil argument always has me wondering. I'm yet to see any positive impact from a war/conflict in an oil region. Prices always go one way with instability and its not down. And does America really profit from this? Seems that oil companies profit, many (most?) of which are not American. e.g. Shell/BP.
 
Huge arm deals with oil-reach states, US bases in the region which guarantee ongoing oil supply, regional allies against global (former USSR) and regional (Iran) superpowers?

Oil prices rarely go up for long periods of time. All the above last longer.
 
Its more about control than profit IMO. Sure, Cheney, Bush, Blair and the other Neocons have no doubt lined their pockets because of war and 'national-building', but the bigger picture here is regional hegemony.

Through controlling the Gulf Arab States and Iraq, the US is essentially in control of 80%+ of the world's oil reserves. They're also able to preemptively prevent Russia from expanding its influence in the region.
 
On twitter they always say Omar Shishani is dead and then they post a pic of a guy with a red beard. Its happened about 6 times now.
 
Won't segmentation along religious/ethnic lines be the best way to achieve long-term stability?

Reading that great summary by @FortBoyard was the first time I realised how much strife was down to artificial borders as a legacy of colonial rule. If they're done away with that's a good thing, right?

Aye. Not only in the Middle East too, Africa's troubles post Colonialism is a direct nod to artificial borders drawn by Europeans 12 decades ago.