ISIS in Iraq and Syria

Someone I know who worked relatively high up the chain in all this intrigue business at the time (I think he's ethnically Arab but he works in Washington) was one of the people who helped facilitate Maliki as a PM. He pushed hard for him and even introduced him to Khalilzad. However, his plan was always to have someone who is in some ways a Shia Islamist to crush the Shia militias. Once that had happened and the 2010 elections occurred, he pushed for someone like Adel abd-al Mahdi to become PM once Iraqqiya had won, someone more economically minded. The White House vetoed his plan.

Now? I'm really not sure who could take Iraq through this. Though I think contrary to what people may think, Iraq splitting into 3 will not prevent future sectarian conflict but will instead keep it running for a long long time.
 
Someone I know who worked relatively high up the chain in all this intrigue business at the time (I think he's ethnically Arab but he works in Washington) was one of the people who helped facilitate Maliki as a PM. He pushed hard for him and even introduced him to Khalilzad. However, his plan was always to have someone who is in some ways a Shia Islamist to crush the Shia militias. Once that had happened and the 2010 elections occurred, he pushed for someone like Adel abd-al Mahdi to become PM once Iraqqiya had won, someone more economically minded. The White House vetoed his plan.

Now? I'm really not sure who could take Iraq through this. Though I think contrary to what people may think, Iraq splitting into 3 will not prevent future sectarian conflict but will instead keep it running for a long long time.

Yeah partitioning wouldn't solve much for anyone except the Kurds, who would press on with statehood. The Sunni areas would get shafted on petro-money, which groups like ISIS would use to legitimize their policies.
 
Iraq would do well with a secularist leader like Allawi. He's ethnically Shi'a, politically secular, and is on good terms with international donors.
I think this was America's biggest miscalculation in Iraq. They thought Allawi would most likely gain enough support to be the PM. They were dead wrong on this.

He's a former Baathist, but he had problems with Saddam, and he's more of a dictator figure really. It doesn't matter if you're "sectarian" or not, a former Baathist will never gain enough support by the Shias, and I can tell you he's absolutely hated by most Shias. I know a small portion do support him, but most of those have some exceptional reasons to support him (they're mainly the former (Shia) Baathists and some families of mixed sects - for example the father is Shia, the mother is Sunni, and as some sort of a "compromise" in the family they don't elect a Shia or a Sunni, so they go for Allawi).

Also he's not really perceived in Iraq as a "Shia". He even topped the Sunni coalition that ran for the 2010 parliamentary elections.
 
I think this was America's biggest miscalculation in Iraq. They thought Allawi would most likely gain enough support to be the PM. They were dead wrong on this.

He's a former Baathist, but he had problems with Saddam, and he's more of a dictator figure really. It doesn't matter if you're "sectarian" or not, a former Baathist will never gain enough support by the Shias, and I can tell you he's absolutely hated by most Shias. I know a small portion do support him, but most of those have some exceptional reasons to support him (they're mainly the former (Shia) Baathists and some families of mixed sects - for example the father is Shia, the mother is Sunni, and as some sort of a "compromise" in the family they don't elect a Shia or a Sunni, so they go for Allawi).

Also he's not really perceived in Iraq as a "Shia". He even topped the Sunni coalition that ran for the 2010 parliamentary elections.

Most Iraqis who were in Government (military or civilian) during the Saddam years, and who are also serving in government today, were at one time affiliated with the Ba'ath party; there's no getting around that as its just how things were done during the Saddam years. The fact that he is ethnically Shi'a, affiliated with Sunnis and well respected internationally, is a good thing. He may or may not become President again, but he's the sort of leader Iraq needs. There aren't really any other figures in the mix who are not also perceived as sectarian. I do personally know one Shi'a politician who was significantly high ranking and who could do a good job, but his party affiliation would work against him.
 
Most Iraqis who were in Government (military or civilian) during the Saddam years, and who are also serving in government today, were at one time affiliated with the Ba'ath party; there's no getting around that as its just how things were done during the Saddam years. The fact that he is ethnically Shi'a, affiliated with Sunnis and well respected internationally, is a good thing. He may or may not become President again, but he's the sort of leader Iraq needs. There aren't really any other figures in the mix who are not also perceived as sectarian. I do know personally know one Shi'a politician who was significantly high ranking and who could do a good job, but his party affiliation would work against him.
That's not what's meant by "Baathist". It's not about "affiliation" with the party. What people mean with that term is the high ranked Baathists (who only get so far deep in the party if they voluntarily wanted, and ticked Saddam's boxes for a real Baathist) not the lower ranked affiliates who were forced to join the party on paper to be able to study and work.

I don't think Allawi will ever be a president, and if he can't ever be a president then how can he be what the Iraqis need? Where we disagree here, and where I think you got it wrong, you think the Shias will be "ok" with him just because he's ethnically Shia. That's not the case, most Shias absolutely hate him, and I think the majority of Shias would rather elect Jalal Talabani (not Barzani) than Allawi if they had to choose one of the two.

Who is that Shia politician?
 
That's not what's meant by "Baathist". It's not about "affiliation" with the party. What people mean with that term is the high ranked Baathists (who only get so far deep in the party if they voluntarily wanted, and ticked Saddam's boxes for a real Baathist) not the lower ranked affiliates who were forced to join the party on paper to be able to study and work.

I don't think Allawi will ever be a president, and if he can't ever be a president then how can he be what the Iraqis need? Where we disagree here, and where I think you got it wrong, you think the Shias will be "ok" with him just because he's ethnically Shia. That's not the case, most Shias absolutely hate him, and I think the majority of Shias would rather elect Jalal Talabani (not Barzani) than Allawi if they had to choose one of the two.

Who is that Shia politician?

Sorry I meant to say Prime Minister, which he has already been and nearly became again in 2010.
 
Sorry I meant to say Prime Minister, which he has already been and nearly became again in 2010.
No I didn't mean just the term. I don't think he'll ever be a PM (through democratic means at least). He was in 2004 not through elections, but because the US advised the politicians to choose him only as interim PM for 6 months.

In 2010 he wasn't even close to being a PM. No Shia party would have supported him to be a PM (or they would have absolutely shattered their popular base), and those 91 seats weren't for him, I think only around 20-30 seats were for him and his party.
 
No I didn't mean just the term. I don't think he'll ever be a PM (through democratic means at least). He was in 2004 not through elections, but because the US advised the politicians to choose him only as interim PM for 6 months.

In 2010 he wasn't even close to being a PM. No Shia party would have supported him to be a PM (or they would have absolutely shattered their popular base), and those 91 seats weren't for him, I think only around 20-30 seats were for him and his party.

I disagree. He actually won the popular vote in 2010, which is more than enough of a political mandate to be considered Prime Minister. In fact it was only a bit of last second maneuvering with Iran and the Sadrists that allowed Maliki to remain PM amid significant allegations of fraud that tipped things in his favor, otherwise Allawi would be there today. Also if you look at the voting results, Allawi did very well in cross sectarian provinces like Baghdad and Diyala, which suggests he was getting votes from across sectarian lines, whereas a massive amount of Maliki's support came from Shi'a strongholds like Karbala, Najaf, and Basra.
 
I disagree. He actually won the popular vote in 2010, which is more than enough of a political mandate to be considered Prime Minister. In fact it was only a bit of last second maneuvering with Iran and the Sadrists that allowed Maliki to remain PM amid significant allegations of fraud that tipped things in his favor, otherwise Allawi would be there today. Also if you look at the voting results, Allawi did very well in cross sectarian provinces like Baghdad and Diyala, which suggests he was getting votes from across sectarian lines, whereas a massive amount of Maliki's support came from Shi'a strongholds like Karbala, Najaf, and Basra.
No he didn't. Al-Maliki won that with over 600,000 votes to his name.

Also it wasn't "his list". He made a coalition with all the Sunni parties to form a single bloc going into the elections. That's why he fared (very) well in provinces with a lot of Sunnis. The seats won by the members of his own party were no more than 20-30.

Also despite the manoeuvring and the public statements, there was practically no chance for him to be a PM. What you're missing here is that Al-Maliki allied himself with the National Alliance (the other Shia bloc) to form (legally) the biggest bloc in the parliament before they agreed on their candidate for the PM position. Even if Maliki failed, another politician from the National Coalition (National Alliance + Maliki bloc) would have taken the position. Allawi was never in a position to be in negotiations involving him being the PM.

We can agree to disagree on this though.
 
Allawi's list - of which he was the leader won the popular vote in the Parliamentary elections in 2010.

See here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_parliamentary_election,_2010 If not for the Iranian interference and vote rigging, Allawi would quite comrortably have been PM.
What?

You're just trying to avoid the real facts, to score an imaginary victory for Allawi that didn't really exist. It was not his list. Just like Al-Jaafari couldn't claim that he won 70 seats in the exact same elections (just because he was the head of the National Alliance list), because of those 70 seats only 2 seats were won by him and his party. Likewise Allawi was only the head of the list, he didn't get even 30 seats in that election for his list, and the 91-seat list actually disintegrated soon afterwards into its original smaller parties.

The Iraqi law states that the biggest parliamentary bloc gets assigned to form the government, not the elected list. That is why Al-Maliki and the National Alliance entered the elections with two lists, because they knew they can unite later to form the biggest bloc, and it was meaningless to team up to form bigger lists before the elections.

You're also exaggerating the Iranian interference. They held meetings in all the regional countries, including Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Iran (like all the other countries) tried to help them narrow the differences to form a government quickly, and try to push towards their preference for the government if possible. At the time the National Coalition (which has 159 seats) was already formed long ago, and was already the biggest parliamentary bloc that will be assigned to form the government.

Iran had more influence on the Iraqi Supreme Counsel, but they still couldn't change their mind and they didn't support Al-Maliki in his government. Al-Maliki managed to convince the Sadrists to join him in the end because he offered them to appoint 6 ministers from their list which was more than what they deserve based on their seats, and that's why they decided to support the government. Also, when Al-Sadrists withdrew from the government later (and withdrew their 6 ministers) Iran could do nothing about it either. So it's not really like how you're trying to picture it.

Also, during the whole negotiation process, not a single statement from any Shia bloc suggested that they're ready to work under a government run by Allawi as a PM (because they know that will destroy their popular base), which is why despite the prolonged deadlock, Allawi wasn't really close to being a PM.
 
Obama talking today about "de-baathificatin" as if it's a wrong thing to do, and that Maliki made a big mistake by not allowing all the former Baathists to return to all the sensitive positions in the government (and army). Is he for real?

Did the US actually regret toppling Saddam so much that they're now deliberately trying to put the Baath regime back in power? (serious question)

Because it should be evident by now what the point behind returning all those Baathists is, which is simply a coup that won't only lead to the fall of Mosul and Tikrit, but the whole government.
 
Obama talking today about "de-baathificatin" as if it's a wrong thing to do, and that Maliki made a big mistake by not allowing all the former Baathists to return to all the sensitive positions in the government (and army). Is he for real?

Did the US actually regret toppling Saddam so much that they're now deliberately trying to put the Baath regime back in power? (serious question)

Because it should be evident by now what the point behind returning all those Baathists is, which is simply a coup that won't only lead to the fall of Mosul and Tikrit, but the whole government.

You have no choice but to allow them to be a part of government. The alternative is war.
 
You have no choice but to allow them to be a part of government. The alternative is war.
They're already part of the government. We aren't talking about a board spectrum of Baathists here.. Just the top positions in the government and the army. Positions that allow them with one order to let a whole province (or potentially the government) fall in a day or two.

What they're trying to do is just claw their way back to power, to rule Iraq, not be part of the political process. Nobody in the world who believes in a political process would resort to what happened in Mosul and Tikrit a few days ago.

If they failed to defend two major cities, and conspired to let if fall outside the government's control, how can they be trusted to be further in charge of sensitive positions in the government?
 
What annoyed me is that they went into Imam Hussain (AS) shrine and their news was about it becoming a sectarian war. I've pretty much boycotted BBC News as they have no intention of saying the truth.

BBC are pioneers in propaganda.
 
They're already part of the government. We aren't talking about a board spectrum of Baathists here.. Just the top positions in the government and the army. Positions that allow them with one order to let a whole province (or potentially the government) fall in a day or two.

What they're trying to do is just claw their way back to power, to rule Iraq, not be part of the political process. Nobody in the world who believes in a political process would resort to what happened in Mosul and Tikrit a few days ago.

If they failed to defend two major cities, and conspired to let if fall outside the government's control, how can they be trusted to be further in charge of sensitive positions in the government?

They have been alienated and not allowed to be part of the process of the government of Iraq. This is a fact widely reported by every expert on Iraq. If you marginalize the Sunnis, if you don't allow the Baathists to be part of the process, you will have war.

Every country who has been in this situation throughout history has faced the same choices.
 
Well he is technically Shi'a. :)

Who would you propose ?

He's about as Shia as you are.

Who would I propose? At this moment of time no one really. All the decent candidates have either been murdered, fled or aren't interested, and who could blame them really - there's no room for selfless benevolence in contemporary Iraqi politics. All I know is that neither Maliki nor James Gandolfini are the answer, both are terrible candidates really.
 
How does everyone see this ending? ISIS creating a caliphate or will they not get that far?
 
This is probably the best explanation of why this problem exists:

The Real Causes of Iraq’s Problems

by Shireen T. Hunter

The beleaguered Prime Minister of Iraq, Nouri al-Maliki, is the latest in the long list of the West’s favorite political leaders turned into pariahs. The conventional wisdom now is that Maliki’s flaws and wrong policies, especially his alienation of the Sunnis and dictatorial style of governance, are at the root of Iraq’s problems, including its latest troubles with extremist Islamic militants.

Clearly, Maliki has not been a successful prime minister. Yet have his very real and assumed flaws been the only, or even the main, cause of Iraq’s problems today? Could a different person have done a better job? Or have the real culprits been structural problems, Iraq’s long and more recent history, and the policies of regional and international actors? A further question: are the grievances of Iraq’s Sunnis solely attributable to the Shias’ desire to monopolize power? What about the Sunnis’ inability to come to terms with any type of government in which the Shias have a real rather than ceremonial function?

These questions are by no means posed to minimize or underestimate the impact of the current leadership’s mismanagement and mistakes, or the corrosive influence of dissension within Shia ranks among the supporters of Maliki, the Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, and Ammar al-Hakim, the head of the Islamic Council of Iraq. But if viewed impartially, the weight of evidence shows that other factors have played more substantial roles in causing Iraq’s previous problems and the latest crisis than Maliki’s incompetence and dictatorial tendencies.


The most significant factor behind Iraq’s problems has been the inability of Iraq’s Sunni Arabs and its Sunni neighbors to come to terms with a government in which the Shias, by virtue of their considerable majority in Iraq’s population, hold the leading role. This inability was displayed early on, when Iraq’s Sunnis refused to take part in Iraq’s first parliamentary elections, and resorted to insurgency almost immediately after the US invasion and fall of Saddam Hussein. All along, the goal of Iraqi Sunnis has been to prove that the Shias are not capable of governing Iraq. Indeed, Iraq’s Sunni deputy prime minister, Osama al Najafi, recently verbalized this view. The Sunnis see political leadership and governance to be their birthright and resent the Shia interlopers.

The Sunnis’ psychological difficulty in accepting a mostly Shia government is understandable. After ruling the country for centuries, both under the Ottomans and after independence, and after oppressing the Shias and viewing them as heretics and dregs of society, the Sunnis find Shia rule to sit heavily on them. It is thus difficult to imagine what any Shia prime minister could have done — or could now do — to satisfy the Sunnis. For example, during the early years after Saddam’s fall, once they had realized their mistake of abstaining from politics, the Sunnis made unreasonable demands as the price of cooperation, such as taking the defense portfolio. Yet considering what the Shias had suffered under Saddam, there was no possibility that they could agree.

Iraq’s Sunni Arabs have not been alone in undermining the authority of the country’s Shia leadership. Masood Barzani, who dreams of an independent Kurdistan, has also done what he can to undermine the authority of the government in Baghdad, by essentially running his own economic, oil, and foreign policies. A factor in Barzani’s attitude has been his anti-Iran sentiments, which go back to the troubles that his father, Mulla Mustafa Barzani, had with the Shah.

Iraq’s Sunni neighbors, notably Saudi Arabia and Turkey, but also Qatar, also cannot countenance a Shia government in Baghdad. In addition to the anti-Shia impact of the Wahhabi creed that is dominant in Saudi Arabia and among the Qatari leadership, this Sunni animosity has derived from the perception that a Shia government in Iraq would change the balance of regional power in Iran’s favor. Yet Maliki is the least pro-Iranian of Iraq’s Shia leaders, with the possible exception of the now-notorious Ahmad Chalabi. During Saddam’s time, Maliki belonged to the Dawa party, a rival of Iraq’s Islamic Revolutionary Council that was supported by Iran, and he spent more time in Syria than in Iran. This is one reason why the US preferred Maliki to personalities like Ibrahim Jafari.

Moreover, Maliki tried to reach out to Turkey and to other Arab states, including Saudi Arabia. But Turkey snubbed him and supported his rival, Tariq al-Hashimi. The Arab states have also shunned him. Under these circumstances, Maliki had no choice but to move closer to Iran. Yet the idea that he has thus become an Iranian pawn is a myth with no foundation in reality. Even now, Iraq has not reestablished the Algiers Agreement of 1975 that regularized Iraqi-Iranian border disputes, an agreement which, before attacking Kuwait in 1990, Saddam had accepted. Iraq has not signed a peace treaty with Iran and competes with it in courting clients for oil exports. Iraq also has more extensive trade relations with Turkey than with Iran.

In short, by exaggerating the sectarian factor, Iraq’s Sunni neighbors have exacerbated Shia fears and made it more difficult for them to pursue a more inclusive policy vis-à-vis the Sunnis. Further, most killings in Iraq have been in Shia areas, undertaken by Sunni extremists of various kinds who are funded by Sunni governments in the region. The plight of the Shias has also not been limited to Iraq. Similar mistreatment in Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan has gone unnoticed by the West, while the exclusion of Iraq’s Sunnis from leadership posts in Baghdad has been blown out of proportion. Western and especially US dislike of Iran has been a major cause for the disregarding of mass killings and assassination of Shias.

America’s conflicting policy objectives in the region have also led it to pursue policies in Iraq that have contributed to current US dilemmas. The most glaring example was the US courting of Sunni insurgents and tribal leaders, both of which were thus emboldened to commit acts such as attacking the Shia shrines in Samara in 2006 and frightening the Shias that America would again betray them as it did at the end of the Persian Gulf War in 1991. Wanting to isolate Iran and perhaps to bring about regime change there, the US has also done virtually nothing to reign in the Saudis and others, including Turkey and Qatar, to prevent them from funding Sunni insurgents. Instead, Washington has blamed Iraqi unrest solely on Iranian meddling. Even today, there is no acknowledgement by the United States that the Islamic State in the Levant (ISIL or ISIS) cannot achieve what it has been doing without outside help.

At an even more fundamental level, America’s efforts to achieve too many contradictory and incompatible goals have been at the root of Iraq’s crisis. To date, it has proved to be difficult — indeed impossible — to eliminate Saddam but produce a stable Iraq; to isolate Iran and possibly change its regime; to get rid of Assad in Syria without exacerbating its civil war; to forge a Sunni-Israeli alliance against Shia Iran; and to convince other Shias throughout the region to continue playing second fiddle to the Sunnis.

To summarize, Nouri al-Maliki is certainly flawed and has made many mistakes. But the real culprits have been Iraq’s considerable fault lines, contradictory policies pursued by the West, and the predatory approach of Iraq’s neighbors. Thus even if Maliki is removed from office, Iraq’s situation will not improve unless these fault lines are dealt with and the policies pursued by outside states in Iraq are remedied. Rather, the situation will get much worse because the Shias are most unlikely to once again accept living under a regime that can be characterized as “Saddamism without Saddam” or, worse, what they would consider a Salafi-Takfiri government that considers them heathens deserving death.

TL;DR - Its not all Maliki's fault, but also Iraqi Sunni's reluctance to accept a Shia government after spending so long as the ruling minority.
 
They have been alienated and not allowed to be part of the process of the government of Iraq. This is a fact widely reported by every expert on Iraq. If you marginalize the Sunnis, if you don't allow the Baathists to be part of the process, you will have war.

Every country who has been in this situation throughout history has faced the same choices.
Like Nazi Germany?

This is not a fact, this is the opinion of some "experts", and we know how much the West understands about the situation in that part of the world, considering the result of their policies in the region in the last couple decades.

Let's review some other "facts" that shed more light on the issue:

- Only 3500 ex-Baathists (only the highest 3 ranks) are not allowed to work in the government (except the most sensitive parts of the government).
- Since 2004 there has been many steps taken to re-integrate the remaining former Baathists, and despite that violence continued through-out the years, even when the US was in Iraq.
- Most (high ranked) ex-Baathists are Sunnis, but most Sunnis are not ex-Baathist, so trying to mix things up that way is wrong. Sunnis are not marginalised in Iraq really imo.
- Over 40% of Iraq's representatives in the other countries in the world are Sunnis.
- A similar percentage of ministries are given to the Sunni constituents.
- The Head of Iraqi's airforce and most of the Iraqi pilots are Sunnis.
- The majority of the army forces that were in Mosul 2 weeks ago were Sunnis, and most of the leaders there were actually former Baathists (who were appointed as further steps taken to reassure the former Baathists and the Sunnis).
- Many other important positions in the government are filled by Sunnis.

If you look at the measures Al-Maliki took against Shia partners, you'll see that they were far more marginalised and punished by Maliki than Sunnis.

However, and I'm not going to call this a "fact", I'll just call it my opinion, they're not after reassurances or justified "rights" (talking about the former Baathists here). They are planning a coup, and they're using their political pressure to put the needed pieces together. And as for the Sunnis, most of those who are unsatisfied to the degree that they want to topple the government in such means I would say it's mainly because of...
Iraqi Sunni's reluctance to accept a Shia government after spending so long as the ruling minority.
Exactly.

When it comes to former Baathists, the Iraqi government will have to make a decision: war or coup? Not easy to pick.

Having said that, imo, 3 states is the only viable option going forward. Democracy will not live long this way, where a minority is allowed to use terrorism as a means for political bargaining.
 
Like Nazi Germany?

This is not a fact, this is the opinion of some "experts", and we know how much the West understands about the situation in that part of the world, considering the result of their policies in the region in the last couple decades.

Let's review some other "facts" that shed more light on the issue:

- Only 3500 ex-Baathists (only the highest 3 ranks) are not allowed to work in the government (except the most sensitive parts of the government).
- Since 2004 there has been many steps taken to re-integrate the remaining former Baathists, and despite that violence continued through-out the years, even when the US was in Iraq.
- Most (high ranked) ex-Baathists are Sunnis, but most Sunnis are not ex-Baathist, so trying to mix things up that way is wrong. Sunnis are not marginalised in Iraq really imo.
- Over 40% of Iraq's representatives in the other countries in the world are Sunnis.
- A similar percentage of ministries are given to the Sunni constituents.
- The Head of Iraqi's airforce and most of the Iraqi pilots are Sunnis.
- The majority of the army forces that were in Mosul 2 weeks ago were Sunnis, and most of the leaders there were actually former Baathists (who were appointed as further steps taken to reassure the former Baathists and the Sunnis).
- Many other important positions in the government are filled by Sunnis.

If you look at the measures Al-Maliki took against Shia partners, you'll see that they were far more marginalised and punished by Maliki than Sunnis.

However, and I'm not going to call this a "fact", I'll just call it my opinion, they're not after reassurances or justified "rights" (talking about the former Baathists here). They are planning a coup, and they're using their political pressure to put the needed pieces together. And as for the Sunnis, most of those who are unsatisfied to the degree that they want to topple the government in such means I would say it's mainly because of...

Exactly.

When it comes to former Baathists, the Iraqi government will have to make a decision: war or coup? Not easy to pick.

Having said that, imo, 3 states is the only viable option going forward. Democracy will not live long this way, where a minority is allowed to use terrorism as a means for political bargaining.


Yes, we do have differing opinions. You don't get to have a massive section of society on the dole, then cut them lose. War, always war. Your points our moot when it comes to the entirety of the people
 
No way can I buy the BBC's line that ISIS is a threat to the UK, they have too much to do in the middle east.
 
No way can I buy the BBC's line that ISIS is a threat to the UK, they have too much to do in the middle east.
They will be a threat if they create a caliphate. They have to be stopped ASAP basically, no western country will want them to create a caliphate.
 
No way can I buy the BBC's line that ISIS is a threat to the UK, they have too much to do in the middle east.

An extremist's twitter account was suspended yesterday for trying to rally Muslims to carry out atrocities here, especially in light of the murder of a young Muslim woman in Colchester - one of the tweets encouraged people to 'use knives like they did in Colchester'. It doesn't take much to create extremists.
 
They will be a threat if they create a caliphate. They have to be stopped ASAP basically, no western country will want them to create a caliphate.
I mean presently, they are all going to fight in Syria and Iraq, surely fighting on two fronts will cost them.
 
I mean presently, they are all going to fight in Syria and Iraq, surely fighting on two fronts will cost them.
So far as a result of that fight they gained money, weapons, publicity, territory, and "mujahideen". I don't think the fight there is costing them too much.
 
No way can I buy the BBC's line that ISIS is a threat to the UK, they have too much to do in the middle east.

It's a strange thesis.

These people already live in Britain - a very good base from which to attack Britain. Instead, they leave Britain and go to fight a Jihad in Iraq and Syria, where they may well lose their lives. A very radical thing to do, on the face of it.

But - the argument runs - they will be 'radicalized' in the Middle East, and, if they survive, will return home to attack Britain. Why? Surely they'll have enough on their plates creating and defending their Caliphate? Britain, after all, is now a non-combatant.

ISIS clearly has large political ambitions in the Middle East and the Islamic world beyond. They're bent on the acquisition of territory. Gratuitously provoking the West into attacking their fledgling Caliphate hardly serves their interests.
 
It's a strange thesis.

These people already live in Britain - a very good base from which to attack Britain. Instead, they leave Britain and go to fight a Jihad in Iraq and Syria, where they may well lose their lives. A very radical thing to do, on the face of it.

But - the argument runs - they will be 'radicalized' in the Middle East, and, if they survive, will return home to attack Britain. Why? Surely they'll have enough on their plates creating and defending their Caliphate? Britain, after all, is now a non-combatant.

ISIS clearly has large political ambitions in the Middle East and the Islamic world beyond. They're bent on the acquisition of territory. Gratuitously provoking the West into attacking their fledgling Caliphate hardly serves their interests.
They will attack Britain (or threaten them) whenever they don't like their policies, or may be whenever they can just because they're "kafirs". For example, are we sure Britain is not marginalising the Muslims there? Well, some might disagree, and will try to correct that..

They're not a traditional "government" or "country" to deal with, and I have said this several times in the past. They are worse than dictatorships, because you can negotiate with dictators, but you can't really negotiate with people of their ideology.

And if you think they care if the West attacks them then you're wrong. They could even use that to recruit more Mujahideen. The US has been fighting them for more than 10 years in Afghanistan, and? You're dealing with even more branches now, spread over larger territory, and as soon as the US leaves Afghanistan, they will regain their strength gradually even in Afghanistan.
 
It's a strange thesis.

These people already live in Britain - a very good base from which to attack Britain. Instead, they leave Britain and go to fight a Jihad in Iraq and Syria, where they may well lose their lives. A very radical thing to do, on the face of it.

But - the argument runs - they will be 'radicalized' in the Middle East, and, if they survive, will return home to attack Britain. Why? Surely they'll have enough on their plates creating and defending their Caliphate? Britain, after all, is now a non-combatant.

ISIS clearly has large political ambitions in the Middle East and the Islamic world beyond. They're bent on the acquisition of territory. Gratuitously provoking the West into attacking their fledgling Caliphate hardly serves their interests.
I thought the argument was that people already radicalized would get weapons and explosives training and it was this that would make them more dangerous?
 
I thought the argument was that people already radicalized would get weapons and explosives training and it was this that would make them more dangerous?

That's part of the argument certainly. But how reasonable is it? It's not necessary to go to Syria to learn how to make a bomb. All that's needed is a laptop.

How does this accord with the facts? How many British or American muslims have returned from fighting abroad and massacred their fellow British or American citizens?

Britain and America have withdrawn from Iraq. If they refrain from military intervention, ISIS fighters will have no reason to regard them as enemies, and, win or lose, are unlikely to develop any burning desire to exact vengeance upon them.

Whatever may happen in the future, this is not presently a culture war between the West and radical Islam. It's an old-fashioned war of conquest. In wars like that, you fight the enemy in front of you.
 
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