ISIS in Iraq and Syria

I doubt the dictators in Tehran and Moscow have the resources or political will to see this out until the end, when their own economies are on the line.

Dunno about the Russian economy, but it seems odd to say this at the very time when the Russians have very visibly increased support.

As for the Iranians, their economy is about to receive a massive boost once the nuclear deal is signed and sealed, and they've been boasting that it will free up extra funding for Assad and Hezbollah. Meanwhile, Obama's team of 50 'rebels' sent to fight ISIS, not Assad, are arrested by Jabhat Al-Nusra 30 mins after crossing the border - allegedly following a tip-off from his 'allies' in Turkey. It's pretty clear which the more committed and united side of this conflict is at the moment.
 
Dunno about the Russian economy, but it seems odd to say this at the very time when the Russians have very visibly increased support.

As for the Iranians, their economy is about to receive a massive boost once the nuclear deal is signed and sealed, and they've been boasting that it will free up extra funding for Assad and Hezbollah. Meanwhile, Obama's team of 50 'rebels' sent to fight ISIS, not Assad, are arrested by Jabhat Al-Nusra 30 mins after crossing the border - allegedly following a tip-off from his 'allies' in Turkey. It's pretty clear which the more committed and united side of this conflict is at the moment.

The facilitators of the Iranian nuke deal (the US) are obviously not going to allow that, nor are the Iranians incentivized to jeopardize the economic windfall by continuing to agitate in a country where they actually don't have that much interest beyond the sectarian angle.
 
The facilitators of the Iranian nuke deal (the US) are obviously not going to allow that, nor are the Iranians incentivized to jeopardize the economic windfall by continuing to agitate in a country where they actually don't have that much interest beyond the sectarian angle.

How will the US stop it? If they could prevent Iranian aid going to Assad, why haven't they done so in the last four years? There's nothing in the deal that ties its implementation to what goes on in Syria. And if the Iranian regime valued economic benefits over helping its allies, it would have stopped supporting Assad, Hezbollah and Hamas years ago.

As for Iranian interests in Syria, the sectarian element is not the crucial factor - the alliance with Assad originated because of the Iran-Iraq war, and essentially makes Iran a frontline state in the confrontation with Israel, always the most important factor for any Middle Eastern actor seeking to project power beyond its borders and shape the region in its image. The idea that the Alawites belong in the Shi'i camp at all is largely a function of their rise to power in Syria and the subsequent alliance, not the other way around - have a read:

Syria’s Alawis and Shi‘ism
http://martinkramer.org/sandbox/reader/archives/syria-alawis-and-shiism/
 
How will the US stop it? If they could prevent Iranian aid going to Assad, why haven't they done so in the last four years? There's nothing in the deal that ties its implementation to what goes on in Syria. And if the Iranian regime valued economic benefits over helping its allies, it would have stopped supporting Assad, Hezbollah and Hamas years ago.

As for Iranian interests in Syria, the sectarian element is not the crucial factor - the alliance with Assad originated because of the Iran-Iraq war, and essentially makes Iran a frontline state in the confrontation with Israel, always the most important factor for any Middle Eastern actor seeking to project power beyond its borders and shape the region in its image. The idea that the Alawites belong in the Shi'i camp at all is largely a function of their rise to power in Syria and the subsequent alliance, not the other way around - have a read:

Syria’s Alawis and Shi‘ism
http://martinkramer.org/sandbox/reader/archives/syria-alawis-and-shiism/

I think the strategy has been to contain the situation by allowing the domestic sides to duke it out. If there is a perception that Russia is putting a lot of resources into propping Assad up, then the US calculus will obviously change in favor of equipping which ever side has the best chance of balancing what Russia is doing. Ultimately, it won't matter as Assad will still have to go.
 
Assad still massively outweighs IS
You keep saying this. Assad never threatened to kill half of the world population to install a caliphate. Let's see if you will say the same if ISIS reaches the stage where they have the same power Assad does.
 
You keep saying this. Assad never threatened to kill half of the world population to install a caliphate. Let's see if you will say the same if ISIS reaches the stage where they have the same power Assad does.
Assad has killed his own people since 2011 to keep power. He has committed crime after crime after crime to cling to whatever power he has left. He has used chemical warfare, barrel bombs, and napalm on children and women. He has thousands more in detention centres being tortured. He is a megalomaniac and he needs to be killed.

IS's notoriety come from their love of a public stage and the Western media's narrative to have a pantomime villain. Again - there is no way anyone can say IS are worse than Assad in the Syrian conflict. I hate IS the same way as everyone else does, but we should call a spade a spade and not swallow everything we see on the news.

Also - threatening to do x, y, z is just a threat. Yes - they have committed terrible crimes, but threatening to kill the world isn't really going to happen is it?
 
Also - threatening to do x, y, z is just a threat. Yes - they have committed terrible crimes, but threatening to kill the world isn't really going to happen is it?
Dunno, let's just sit around doing nothing and find out.
 
Dunno, let's just sit around doing nothing and find out.
Well, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying his threat does not = eventuality. If we take that strand of thought, why don't we go and decimate Iran for claiming the destruction of Israel? Or Israel for the destruction of the Palestinians? Or any time someone makes an exaggerated claim in a geo-political situation.
 
@Sultan

Indian clerics issue fatwa againt ISIS, declare it un-Islamic

NEW DELHI: Over 1,050 Indian Islamic scholars and clerics have issued fatwa against the Islamic State terror group and described its acts and actions as against the basic tenets of Islam.

This is the first time that such a large number of religious leaders and Imams have issued a joint fatwa against Islamic State — also known as Daesh — which has unleashed a reign of terror in the Middle East, killing thousands of innocent people.

"Islam shuns violence while Daesh perpetuates it," the edict said.

Abdul Rehman Anjari, president of the Mumbai's Islamic defence cyber cell, collected the edicts from Muslims scholars and leaders over the past few months.

These fatwas are in 15 volumes, and copies were sent to UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon and other leaders to convey Indian Muslims' views on IS activities.

It urged the international community to take immediate steps to eliminate this terror group that has caused mayhem in the region and is spreading its tentacles in the South Asian region.

The signatories to the fatwa include the Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid Syed Ahmed Bukhari, head priests of Dargah Ajmer Sharief and Nizamuddin Aulia, functionaries of Mumbai's Raza Academy, Mumbai's Jamait Ulema and the Ulema Council. Hundreds of imams and various religious leaders have also endorsed it.

Anjari said muftis and imams of all sections and sects of Islam have condemned the activities of Daesh and acknowledged it has tarnished Islam's image.

The fatwa was issued at a time when reports say that Daesh mercenaries are trying to lure Indian youth to join them.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...eclare-it-un-Islamic/articleshow/48873062.cms
 
The Syrian people don't want Assad. I know Syrian people, and trust me, they hate him with every fibre of their being. And you tell me - what is the difference between Assad and IS? The least you can say about IS is that they are fairly recent, so the death toll isn't even near the likes of Assad junior and senior. There were up to 40,000 killed due to the Hama massacre. Do you think the sons and daughters and survivors have forgotten that? Bashar has killed and killed and killed, at my last count, 400,000 have been killed during this Syrian conflict. Like I said before, whatever quantifiable metric you want to use, there is no way you can say IS have been worse than Bashar. In fact, even the most depraved crimes by IS have been following from Bashar. By intangible, unquantifiable metrics 'macabre doomsday cult', 'no moral confliction' etc, then you might have a case, but for documented evidence that we can all see with our eyes, there is only one 'winner' here, and you know who it is, and I know who it is, but you're not willing to admit it.

Let's not be disingenuous here, the only reason IS are so much more notorious in the public eye is because they want an audience, and they're the perfect pantomime villain for Western eyes. No one in the West wants to admit or realise that their Western educated, secular, suit wearing, beardless banner of democracy Bashar al-Assad is worse than the 'medieval backward crazies' IS. We need to understand and accept that Bashar is the real issue here.


I said it wasn't a great idea. And my justification is thus - would the Assad family kill as readily and indiscriminately if they were ruling over an Alawite majority population? I'm not so sure. And I agree with you regarding Saddam. I'm not a fan of these dictators using any means necessary to keep control. But I am also vehemently against the US going in and destabilising it further.

The Middle East is a mess, and we're going round in circles here. One side calling the other Rafidi. The other side calling them Wahabi. Where does it end? I think the worst thing that happened for the Sunni Muslims was the abolishment of the Caliphate. In my eyes, the end of the Caliphate divided us and led to the state we're in now. But this is a whole different rant, for a different day, so I won't go into too much detail about it now.


I did a bit more research, and it's not as hollow as I thought. I'll make a separate post in the Refugee thread and tag you in it to show the extent the Saudi gov't has helped.

But going on the abundance of wealth - well, yea, they're so rich they've lost their sense. I agree with you. But you have to remember, this is the 1% of the people, who unfortunately control the whole land, and it's not exclusive to them, either. It's not exactly shocking as it happens in every single country. It's nothing new. It happens here, but we call them upper class right wing etc. There's a reason these Gulf emiratis elites are better known as 'bedouins with barefeet', because that's essentially what they are. Desert people who stumbled onto unimaginable wealth, competing to try and outdo one another in indulgence.




Thanks for your post but with all due respect you're grossly simplifying the issue here.

Let's start with Assad. You're making the general statement that the people of Syria want him ousted. I'll concede that the majority of Syrians don't hold a favourable view over him, even his own sect, but I also stand by the notion that most prefer him to the alternative available right now. You're using the sample size of a few of your Syrian mates to formulate a generalisation, but I can recall a lot of my own Syrian friends and acquaintances who would much rather him than the FSA/ISIS. All it testaments is how divided the nation is.

For all of Assad's brutality, its still insane to compare him to ISIS. Yes him and his fathers body count may be higher, but that's hardly surprising since you're collectively factoring a family dictatorship stretching over 40 year timespan compared to the couple of years ISIS have been around. But during the Assad reign we've not had Christians being beheaded, churches being burned and an entire sect's women being used as sex slaves. Bashar is just another brutal middle eastern dictator, ISIS on the very hand represent the very worst in humanity.

You're also claiming that the solution to this issue lies in taking out Bashar first and foremost, and then dealing with ISIS like its an afterthought that will just fall into place. Well consider recent history - what happens when we take out a brutal ME dictator? It opens up a vacuum that is almost always occupied by extremists - see Iraq and Libya. Now in Syria this is even more precarious since the most organised and substantial opposition tot he Syrian government is...you guessed it - ISIS. Now consider the terrifying implications of what would happen if there were suddenly a huge power vacuum in Syria...
 
Thanks for your post but with all due respect you're grossly simplifying the issue here.

Let's start with Assad. You're making the general statement that the people of Syria want him ousted. I'll concede that the majority of Syrians don't hold a favourable view over him, even his own sect, but I also stand by the notion that most prefer him to the alternative available right now. You're using the sample size of a few of your Syrian mates to formulate a generalisation, but I can recall a lot of my own Syrian friends and acquaintances who would much rather him than the FSA/ISIS. All it testaments is how divided the nation is.

For all of Assad's brutality, its still insane to compare him to ISIS. Yes him and his fathers body count may be higher, but that's hardly surprising since you're collectively factoring a family dictatorship stretching over 40 year timespan compared to the couple of years ISIS have been around. But during the Assad reign we've not had Christians being beheaded, churches being burned and an entire sect's women being used as sex slaves. Bashar is just another brutal middle eastern dictator, ISIS on the very hand represent the very worst in humanity.

You're also claiming that the solution to this issue lies in taking out Bashar first and foremost, and then dealing with ISIS like its an afterthought that will just fall into place. Well consider recent history - what happens when we take out a brutal ME dictator? It opens up a vacuum that is almost always occupied by extremists - see Iraq and Libya. Now in Syria this is even more precarious since the most organised and substantial opposition tot he Syrian government is...you guessed it - ISIS. Now consider the terrifying implications of what would happen if there were suddenly a huge power vacuum in Syria...
Great post and something that I have been saying here, but then got accused for 'being selfish and not caring what happens in Syria as long as we're safe here'.

Assad is scum but the current alternatives are worse. Full stop.
 
@Sultan

Indian clerics issue fatwa againt ISIS, declare it un-Islamic

NEW DELHI: Over 1,050 Indian Islamic scholars and clerics have issued fatwa against the Islamic State terror group and described its acts and actions as against the basic tenets of Islam.

This is the first time that such a large number of religious leaders and Imams have issued a joint fatwa against Islamic State — also known as Daesh — which has unleashed a reign of terror in the Middle East, killing thousands of innocent people.

"Islam shuns violence while Daesh perpetuates it," the edict said.

Abdul Rehman Anjari, president of the Mumbai's Islamic defence cyber cell, collected the edicts from Muslims scholars and leaders over the past few months.

These fatwas are in 15 volumes, and copies were sent to UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon and other leaders to convey Indian Muslims' views on IS activities.

It urged the international community to take immediate steps to eliminate this terror group that has caused mayhem in the region and is spreading its tentacles in the South Asian region.

The signatories to the fatwa include the Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid Syed Ahmed Bukhari, head priests of Dargah Ajmer Sharief and Nizamuddin Aulia, functionaries of Mumbai's Raza Academy, Mumbai's Jamait Ulema and the Ulema Council. Hundreds of imams and various religious leaders have also endorsed it.

Anjari said muftis and imams of all sections and sects of Islam have condemned the activities of Daesh and acknowledged it has tarnished Islam's image.

The fatwa was issued at a time when reports say that Daesh mercenaries are trying to lure Indian youth to join them.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...eclare-it-un-Islamic/articleshow/48873062.cms

Cheers!

Such an obvious edict to declare...
 
Great post and something that I have been saying here, but then got accused for 'being selfish and not caring what happens in Syria as long as we're safe here'.

Assad is scum but the current alternatives are worse. Full stop.

Keeping him in power is a false choice since that won't do anything to resolve the Syrian civil war. The only solution is a humanitarian intervention that creates safety corridors for refugees and a force that can mediate between the factions after ISIS (who will never agree to mediation) are routed.
 
Keeping him in power is a false choice since that won't do anything to resolve the Syrian civil war. The only solution is a humanitarian intervention that creates safety corridors for refugees and a force that can mediate between the factions after ISIS (who will never agree to mediation) are routed.

The one thing worse than keeping him in power is actively looking to oust him and leaving a power vacuum wide open with no stable transition in place.

The number one priority in the region should be to cripple ISIS. Which means hitting them hard militarily, and perhaps more importantly - cutting their funding, logistics and intel.
 
The one thing worse than keeping him in power is actively looking to oust him and leaving a power vacuum wide open with no stable transition in place.

The number one priority in the region should be to cripple ISIS. Which means hitting them hard militarily, and perhaps more importantly - cutting their funding, logistics and intel.

That of course won't fix much in the long term since the Syrian civil war didn't start because of ISIS - it was an Arab spring style revolt which Assad opted to crush, which led to the contagion that we are in today. The only realistic chance at stabilizing the country is for all armed actors to be neutralized by an international force, and a UN Security Council mandated plan implemented that will allow elections to take place. Anything short of that will allow the current situation to continue.
 
The number one priority in the region should be to cripple ISIS.

Looking at this list of barrel bomb targets for August, it doesn't appear to be Assad's number one priority:

Damascus Suburbs: 894
Daraa: 300
Idlib: 115
Hama: 114
Aleppo: 90
Homs: 60
Lattakia: 10
Al Qunaitra: 4
Damascus: 2
Deir Al Zour: 2

The whole "It's either ISIS or Assad" is exactly what Assad has been aiming for. Not that I'm a fan of the other rebel groups.
 
That of course won't fix much in the long term since the Syrian civil war didn't start because of ISIS - it was an Arab spring style revolt which Assad opted to crush, which led to the contagion that we are in today. The only realistic chance at stabilizing the country is for all armed actors to be neutralized by an international force, and a UN Security Council mandated plan implemented that will allow elections to take place. Anything short of that will allow the current situation to continue.

Didnt this happen in libya ? They're still shooting at each other despite the media not giving a shit anymore. And why did the west back a coup in egypt against the democratically elected muslim brotherhood ?

The only realistic chance at stabilizing the country is for west to stop arming the isis through some vague "moderate rebels" and to come down hard on the turks and gulf arabs to stop aiding them financially and logictically. Once the terrorists have been done away with then get the UN to pass a resolution that elections be held in syria after a year backed by a veiled threat of force sanctioned by the security council.
 
Didnt this happen in libya ? They're still shooting at each other despite the media not giving a shit anymore. And why did the west back a coup in egypt against the democratically elected muslim brotherhood ?

The only realistic chance at stabilizing the country is for west to stop arming the isis through some vague "moderate rebels" and to come down hard on the turks and gulf arabs to stop aiding them financially and logictically. Once the terrorists have been done away with then get the UN to pass a resolution that elections be held in syria after a year backed by a veiled threat of force sanctioned by the security council.

No, Libya was different in that there was no plan of action on what to do after Qaddafi fell. An intervention doesn't work if the interveners simply leave after the government is toppled. It takes a 5-10 year plan on what to do after in terms of setting up security, governance, humanitarian aid, elections etc. That will never happen without outside intervention - and I don't mean the sort from autocratic muppets like Putin and Khamenei.
 
Thanks for your post but with all due respect you're grossly simplifying the issue here.

Let's start with Assad. You're making the general statement that the people of Syria want him ousted. I'll concede that the majority of Syrians don't hold a favourable view over him, even his own sect, but I also stand by the notion that most prefer him to the alternative available right now. You're using the sample size of a few of your Syrian mates to formulate a generalisation, but I can recall a lot of my own Syrian friends and acquaintances who would much rather him than the FSA/ISIS. All it testaments is how divided the nation is.
Ok - short of either one of us finding every single Syrian and asking them point blank who they prefer, neither one of us will be able to provide enough evidence for the other to believe. However, having said that, from my own understanding, research, interactions, and reading, the overwhelming majority hate him as much as I do. And I haven't advocated IS in his place.

For all of Assad's brutality, its still insane to compare him to ISIS. Yes him and his fathers body count may be higher, but that's hardly surprising since you're collectively factoring a family dictatorship stretching over 40 year timespan compared to the couple of years ISIS have been around. But during the Assad reign we've not had Christians being beheaded, churches being burned and an entire sect's women being used as sex slaves. Bashar is just another brutal middle eastern dictator, ISIS on the very hand represent the very worst in humanity.
Assad has been responsible for 400,000 deaths in 4 years. IS are on 20,000 in 2. The numbers are incomparable. Both are vile, and both should and will be vanquished, but I don't buy into this notion that IS are worse. They're scum, but their horrors have been for public consumption, and for shock value. I don't want to be misquoted here, so I'll say it again. IS are vile, and they needed to be routed out, but within the context of the Syrian war, there is only winner in terms of depravity, crimes, and inhumane actions, and that is Assad. I mean, I've seen some horrific videos that his goons and the likes of Shabiha have carried out, and they are on similar levels (if not worse) to IS. Again I ask, what ever metric you want to use in terms of who's worse, there is only one winner. Even if we were to extrapolate the amount killed, or peoples displaced etc. And it's made worse by the fact that Iran and Russia and Lebanese Hezbollah have been involved, as people think this is a legitimate pardon for Assad to do what he's done. That is so so wrong. Barrel bombs, napalm, chemical warfare, gas, you name it Assad has done it. He's tortured and killed to cling to power, and it annoys me that others don't understand that (and you as you're one of my fav. posters). My point is that for the Syrian people, the graver threat has always been Bashar. Considering that IS control desert/barren sparsely populated lands, and Bashar is holed up in the big densely populated cities, who is more likely accumulating a larger death toll?

You're also claiming that the solution to this issue lies in taking out Bashar first and foremost, and then dealing with ISIS like its an afterthought that will just fall into place. Well consider recent history - what happens when we take out a brutal ME dictator? It opens up a vacuum that is almost always occupied by extremists - see Iraq and Libya. Now in Syria this is even more precarious since the most organised and substantial opposition tot he Syrian government is...you guessed it - ISIS. Now consider the terrifying implications of what would happen if there were suddenly a huge power vacuum in Syria...

Well, let's look at the make up of the main opposition forces - the FSA are primarily made up of senior guys from the regime. As in, people that know the make up, infrastructure and civil life of Syria. If they were to end Assad, wouldn't they be best placed to handle Syria as opposed to some puppet put in place by the US? I'll tell you why this is different to Iraq and Libya, and @Revan, this is for your benefit as well. I've always maintained the position that the FSA will be the best for the country, and for multiple reasons. Firstly, they are moderate, they have no grand designs to get rid on non Muslim presence in the lands, nor do they have any real desire to eradicate non Syrians. Their position has always been one of pluralism and reforms. If the West had armed them to begin with we might have seen an end to this bloody conflict by now. Secondly, as I mentioned, their make up and hierarchy is ex political/military personnel from the old regime. They know what will work and what won't work. They will be best placed to carry Syria forward. Thirdly, it would never be in their interest to allow IS the chance to proliferate and expand. The natural extension to their dominion on the land will be to repel/rout out IS. IS are primarily concerned with territorial control and the removal of non Sunnis, and foreign participants. The FSA rely on groups such as the YPG, the Free Alawites, Druze, etc. Why would they suddenly turn their backs on these other groups post Sunni? A lot of the inroads they made were hijacked by IS. Heck - even al Nusra have collaborated and found common ground with the FSA to battle the likes of IS. IS is the common enemy after Assad, and I have no doubt that if the opposition were to remove Assad once and for all, they would mobilise against IS after. And if they were aided by foreign countries, then so be it. Libya, on the other hand, never had a rebel faction as well organised as this. NATO didn't think far ahead either, and was more concerned portraying the big hero, imo. Iraq...well, tbh, I'm still not sure what the West's plan was save for going in there and fecking it up, oh yea it was oil, but there was no real plan or afterthought, and there was no real opposition body either. That was a cataclysmic mistake by the West and Bush ad Blair should be tried for war crimes (but I digress). The point is, outside forces going in to intervene create the vacuum. Syria don't need an outside opposition, as the FSA provide that for them. How can a vacuum fester and grow if the winners of the conflict are domiciled in the lands? You can't apply the same logic from Iraq & Libya to Syria, although I understand yours (and other's) trepidation.
 
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That of course won't fix much in the long term since the Syrian civil war didn't start because of ISIS - it was an Arab spring style revolt which Assad opted to crush, which led to the contagion that we are in today. The only realistic chance at stabilizing the country is for all armed actors to be neutralized by an international force, and a UN Security Council mandated plan implemented that will allow elections to take place. Anything short of that will allow the current situation to continue.
You sound like George Bush a decade ago.
 
Assad has been responsible for 400,000 deaths in 4 years. IS are on 20,000 in 2. The numbers are incomparable. Both are vile, and both should and will be vanquished, but I don't buy into this notion that IS are worse. They're scum, but their horrors have been for public consumption, and for shock value. I don't want to be misquoted here, so I'll say it again. IS are vile, and they needed to be routed out, but within the context of the Syrian war, there is only winner in terms of depravity, crimes, and inhumane actions, and that is Assad. I mean, I've seen some horrific videos that his goons and the likes of Shabiha have carried out, and they are on similar levels (if not worse) to IS. Again I ask, what ever metric you want to use in terms of who's worse, there is only one winner. Even if we were to extrapolate the amount killed, or peoples displaced etc. And it's made worse by the fact that Iran and Russia and Lebanese Hezbollah have been involved, as people think this is a legitimate pardon for Assad to do what he's done. That is so so wrong. Barrel bombs, napalm, chemical warfare, gas, you name it Assad has done it. He's tortured and killed to cling to power, and it annoys me that others don't understand that (and you as you're one of my fav. posters). My point is that for the Syrian people, the graver threat has always been Bashar. Considering that IS control desert/barren sparsely populated lands, and Bashar is holed up in the big densely populated cities, who is more likely accumulating a larger death toll?

No he hasn't. What you've quoted there is the number of people predicted to have been killed in Syria over the last 4 years. That includes Syrian soldiers and civilians butchered by forces opposed to the Assad government. To simply say that Assad is responsible for all those deaths would be skewed logic. Yes Assad has tortured and killed to stay in power but again so has pretty much every Middle Eastern dictator. I'm certainly not excusing him but the reality is we're dealing not with black and white moral labels, but rather different levels of evil. I can confidently wager that almost the entire world would see ISIS as a more graver evil than Assad, doesn't mean it absolves Assad of any evil but he certainly doesn't compare to ISIS. The key difference being that Assad is a marginalised evil, whereas ISIS is an epidemic evil - if left to fester it would have terrifying consequences. Assad will kill to stay in power but I don't imagine he has an ultimate aspiration of eradicating the world of 'kuffars', making women sex slaves and destroying the cultural remnants of our collective human history. That's the metric I'm going by.

Well, let's look at the make up of the main opposition forces - the FSA are primarily made up of senior guys from the regime. As in, people that know the make up, infrastructure and civil life of Syria. If they were to end Assad, wouldn't they be best placed to handle Syria as opposed to some puppet put in place by the US? I'll tell you why this is different to Iraq and Libya, and @Revan, this is for your benefit as well. I've always maintained the position that the FSA will be the best for the country, and for multiple reasons. Firstly, they are moderate, they have no grand designs to get rid on non Muslim presence in the lands, nor do they have any real desire to eradicate non Syrians. Their position has always been one of pluralism and reforms. If the West had armed them to begin with we might have seen an end to this bloody conflict by now. Secondly, as I mentioned, their make up and hierarchy is ex political/military personnel from the old regime. They know what will work and what won't work. They will be best placed to carry Syria forward. Thirdly, it would never be in their interest to allow IS the chance to proliferate and expand. The natural extension to their dominion on the land will be to repel/rout out IS. IS are primarily concerned with territorial control and the removal of non Sunnis, and foreign participants. The FSA rely on groups such as the YPG, the Free Alawites, Druze, etc. Why would they suddenly turn their backs on these other groups post Sunni? A lot of the inroads they made were hijacked by IS. Heck - even al Nusra have collaborated and found common ground with the FSA to battle the likes of IS. IS is the common enemy after Assad, and I have no doubt that if the opposition were to remove Assad once and for all, they would mobilise against IS after. And if they were aided by foreign countries, then so be it. Libya, on the other hand, never had a rebel faction as well organised as this. NATO didn't think far ahead either, and was more concerned portraying the big hero, imo. Iraq...well, tbh, I'm still not sure what the West's plan was save for going in there and fecking it up, oh yea it was oil, but there was no real plan or afterthought, and there was no real opposition body either. That was a cataclysmic mistake by the West and Bush ad Blair should be tried for war crimes (but I digress). The point is, outside forces going in to intervene create the vacuum. Syria don't need an outside opposition, as the FSA provide that for them. How can a vacuum fester and grow if the winners of the conflict are domiciled in the lands? You can't apply the same logic from Iraq & Libya to Syria, although I understand yours (and other's) trepidation.

You've put your hope on the FSA being the transtional successor to an ousted Assad regime, there are two HUGE issues with that:

1) The FSA are a disjointed and tenuous coalition of various groups, many of whom hugely differ in what they intend for Syria. The only thing bringing them together is their mutual hatred for Assad and their desire to overthrow him. But what happens when he's gone? They'll most likely turn on each other, just as the Libyan rebels have and still are since they've ousted Gaddafi.

2) They're not even the biggest opposition movement! Unfortunately that accolade goes to...ISIS.

You also made a comment about FSA being preferable to a 'US puppet' successor, the amusing thing is that the FSA have received most their funding from the US and Saudis, so they'd be the ideal US option :lol:
 
Looking at this list of barrel bomb targets for August, it doesn't appear to be Assad's number one priority:

Damascus Suburbs: 894
Daraa: 300
Idlib: 115
Hama: 114
Aleppo: 90
Homs: 60
Lattakia: 10
Al Qunaitra: 4
Damascus: 2
Deir Al Zour: 2

The whole "It's either ISIS or Assad" is exactly what Assad has been aiming for. Not that I'm a fan of the other rebel groups.

His priority is to stay in power. ISIS are currently his biggest threat, so it would make sense for him to prioritise them. The Syrian army have taken heavy losses against ISIS in the last year, so its evident they're fighting them. His allies Iran, Russia and Hezbollah have also been involved in military operations against them.
 
That of course won't fix much in the long term since the Syrian civil war didn't start because of ISIS - it was an Arab spring style revolt which Assad opted to crush, which led to the contagion that we are in today. The only realistic chance at stabilizing the country is for all armed actors to be neutralized by an international force, and a UN Security Council mandated plan implemented that will allow elections to take place. Anything short of that will allow the current situation to continue.

Good luck trying to disarm the dozen or so factions all fighting each other.
 
His priority is to stay in power. ISIS are currently his biggest threat, so it would make sense for him to prioritise them.

You'd think so, but of the cities in that list, only Deir ez-Zor is under ISIS control. So clearly Assad has been prioritizing the fight against the other rebels, while leaving ISIS held territory alone in comparison. Why do you think that is?

The rise of ISIS over the other rebels suits Assad - it perpetuates the idea that Syria has a straight choice to make between him and ISIS, making him look like the only realistic alternative to them.
 
You'd think so, but of the cities in that list, only Deir ez-Zor is under ISIS control. So clearly Assad has been prioritizing the fight against the other rebels, while leaving ISIS held territory alone in comparison. Why do you think that is?

The rise of ISIS over the other rebels suits Assad - it perpetuates the idea that Syria has a straight choice to make between him and ISIS, making him look like the only realistic alternative to them.

He's obviously going to take advantage of the chaos and take a few pot shots at the FSA. The reverse is also happening - the FSA are rarely engaging with ISIS and focusing almost exclusively on regime forces, with some elements of the FSA even sympathetic towards ISIS and Al-Nusra.

In fact, the only faction consistently fighting ISIS are the Kurds.
 
He's obviously going to take advantage of the chaos and take a few pot shots at the FSA. The reverse is also happening - the FSA are rarely engaging with ISIS and focusing almost exclusively on regime forces, with some elements of the FSA even sympathetic towards ISIS and Al-Nusra.

In fact, the only faction consistently fighting ISIS are the Kurds.

That's all true, except around Azaz north of Aleppo, where ISIS and Ahrar al-Sham have been fighting intense battles recently.

I'm no fan of the FSA, they're led by ex-regime types which means they're implicated in the regime's pre-2011 crimes and learned everything they know about Syrian politics in that context.

But I think among the rebels the rise of ISIS has been even better for the image of the jihadist factions, who are bigger and more effective than the FSA - under normal circumstances Ahrar al-Sham, Nusra and others would be getting compared to the Taliban (to his credit Juan Cole did this recently), instead we have David Petraus suggesting an alliance with them against ISIS! Crazy times.

But these groups have emerged from a Syria very much of the Ba'ath's making, an Assad victory won't solve the underlying problems which have produced them, it will only perpetuate them further. One of the reasons there were no significant liberal elements in the opposition in 2011 is that over the course of the previous half century, the Ba'ath had exiled, imprisoned or killed them all.

By the way, Assad lost a major airbase in Idlib Province to Jabhat al-Nusra tonight.
 
The facilitators of the Iranian nuke deal (the US) are obviously not going to allow that, nor are the Iranians incentivized to jeopardize the economic windfall by continuing to agitate in a country where they actually don't have that much interest beyond the sectarian angle.
Only if US is against Assad. US policies have always been self serving and I wouldn't be surprised if they empower one terrorist to defeat the other, depending on their current fancies.
 
@Sultan

Indian clerics issue fatwa againt ISIS, declare it un-Islamic

NEW DELHI: Over 1,050 Indian Islamic scholars and clerics have issued fatwa against the Islamic State terror group and described its acts and actions as against the basic tenets of Islam.

This is the first time that such a large number of religious leaders and Imams have issued a joint fatwa against Islamic State — also known as Daesh — which has unleashed a reign of terror in the Middle East, killing thousands of innocent people.

"Islam shuns violence while Daesh perpetuates it," the edict said.

Abdul Rehman Anjari, president of the Mumbai's Islamic defence cyber cell, collected the edicts from Muslims scholars and leaders over the past few months.

These fatwas are in 15 volumes, and copies were sent to UN secretary general Ban Ki-moon and other leaders to convey Indian Muslims' views on IS activities.

It urged the international community to take immediate steps to eliminate this terror group that has caused mayhem in the region and is spreading its tentacles in the South Asian region.

The signatories to the fatwa include the Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid Syed Ahmed Bukhari, head priests of Dargah Ajmer Sharief and Nizamuddin Aulia, functionaries of Mumbai's Raza Academy, Mumbai's Jamait Ulema and the Ulema Council. Hundreds of imams and various religious leaders have also endorsed it.

Anjari said muftis and imams of all sections and sects of Islam have condemned the activities of Daesh and acknowledged it has tarnished Islam's image.

The fatwa was issued at a time when reports say that Daesh mercenaries are trying to lure Indian youth to join them.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...eclare-it-un-Islamic/articleshow/48873062.cms
Good to see this happening. At least the devout (to the respective mosques) at least would see ISIS as evil..
 
No, Libya was different in that there was no plan of action on what to do after Qaddafi fell. An intervention doesn't work if the interveners simply leave after the government is toppled. It takes a 5-10 year plan on what to do after in terms of setting up security, governance, humanitarian aid, elections etc. That will never happen without outside intervention - and I don't mean the sort from autocratic muppets like Putin and Khamenei.

Is that what happened in Iraq? What was the plan there? It's been twelve years, so I guess, it's pretty much a smooth sailing down there by now. The only thing that changed in Afghanistan is that their opium production increased by leaps and bounds since Americans had decided to get involved. Not sure, if Libya is the right place for the 10 year plan either, because it looks like, by the time the plan is realized, there won't be any population left to enjoy all the great things their "liberators" bombed into, I mean, brought into their country.
The Syrian plan seemingly involves removing your average Middle Eastern dictator from power by any means necessary, even if it means he'll be replaced by a bunch of good-natured guys, who like to spend their free time cutting people's heads and raping women.

I sometimes wonder, if you genuinely believe what you're posting or it's just non stop trolling.
 
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No he hasn't. What you've quoted there is the number of people predicted to have been killed in Syria over the last 4 years. That includes Syrian soldiers and civilians butchered by forces opposed to the Assad government. To simply say that Assad is responsible for all those deaths would be skewed logic. Yes Assad has tortured and killed to stay in power but again so has pretty much every Middle Eastern dictator. I'm certainly not excusing him but the reality is we're dealing not with black and white moral labels, but rather different levels of evil. I can confidently wager that almost the entire world would see ISIS as a more graver evil than Assad, doesn't mean it absolves Assad of any evil but he certainly doesn't compare to ISIS. The key difference being that Assad is a marginalised evil, whereas ISIS is an epidemic evil - if left to fester it would have terrifying consequences. Assad will kill to stay in power but I don't imagine he has an ultimate aspiration of eradicating the world of 'kuffars', making women sex slaves and destroying the cultural remnants of our collective human history. That's the metric I'm going by.
Here you go - cold hard facts:

"
BEIRUT — President Bashar al-Assad’s government has killed far more people in Syria this year than the Islamic State, monitoring organizations and analysts say, even as the extremist group grabs headlines with its shocking brutality.

Between January and July, Assad’s military and pro-government militias killed 7,894 people, while the Islamic State killed 1,131, according to the Syrian Network for Human Rights, a monitoring group based in Britain. In a single day last month, government airstrikes are said to have killed more than 100 people in a residential area of Douma, a suburb of the capital, Damascus.

“No human being should have to endure what Assad is putting us through,” said Hassan Takuldin, 27, who witnessed the Douma attacks.

Government forces are responsible for many more of the estimated 250,000 deaths in the four-year-old conflict than are the Islamic State militants and rebel groups, analysts and monitoring groups say. The figures, they say, underscore how Assad’s indiscriminate use of violence has empowered the Islamic State and other extremist groups and forced millions of Syrians to flee to neighboring countries and Europe.

“For all the Islamic State’s horrendous brutality, we can’t forget that the Assad regime has been the main source of death and destruction in Syria since 2011,” said Emile Hokayem, a Middle East analyst at the London-based International Institute for Strategic Studies. “You can’t solve the conflict unless you find a way to address this, which the world hasn’t yet.”"

These figures aren't hard to come by.

This is what I've been saying all along. Bashar is much worse than IS. Any attempts to lay blame elsewhere is disingenuous. No matter whichever way you look at it, you can't say that IS are worse. Even if you take their ideology and their empty threats about what they're going to do...it's all hot air. They are scum, and their time will come, but to resolve this conflict, Bashar and his goons need to be destroyed first. That is the bottom line, and there is no way anyone can say otherwise with any justifiable evidence. And on top of that - do you know how much Islamic heritage has been destroyed by Assad's goons? Countless of graves of the Sahaba, old mosques, and architecture that dates back over 1000 years, they've laid waste to. Even the women issue - do you truly know the extent of what Assad's guys and the Shabiha do?

Sitting in the dark, fetid cave that served as his makeshift prison, Mohammed confessed with the frankness of a man who knew he had no escape from death. For the equivalent of £300 a month, plus a £100 bonus for every victim, he had become a hired killer for President Bashar al Assad, he said. What was more, he had enjoyed every minute of it.

"We love Assad because the government gave us all the power - if I wanted to take something, kill a person or rape a girl I could," he said, in a calm, quiet voice devoid of remorse.

"The government gave me 30,000 Syrian pounds per month and an extra 10,000 per person that I captured or killed. I raped one girl, and my commander raped many times. It was normal."

He described one rape he had committed. "She was a student of Aleppo University. It was daytime and I was driving around the city with my boss. She was passing on the street. I said to my boss, 'What do you think about this girl? Is she not beautiful?'

"We grabbed her and put her into the car. We drove to an abandoned home and we both raped her. After we finished we killed her. She knew our faces and our neighbours, so she could not live."

Have a read of this article as well http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...-rape-prisons-a-survivor-tells-her-story.html It details the rape/sexual assault detention centres in Aleppo, Homs etc. Basically wherever Bashar has/had a stronghold.

It shows you the depravity and inhumanity of Shabiha and pro Assad cnuts. It's galling on one hand you think IS are worse for crimes that Assad has been doing all along and on a much much larger scale. Again I say, Bashar is the root cause of this mess, and his head on a pike should be the first step to settling the area. He is worse that IS by any metric you want to use, even the one you mentioned above. There is no way anyone can argue otherwise, and anyone that supports Assad is akin to someone supporting IS.

Again - the only reason he is seen in a favourable light is because he is a Western educated, secular, suit wearing, beardless man in the ME. Saddam and Qadafi were called monsters, and all of a sudden Bashar isn't? It's laughable.


You've put your hope on the FSA being the transtional successor to an ousted Assad regime, there are two HUGE issues with that:

1) The FSA are a disjointed and tenuous coalition of various groups, many of whom hugely differ in what they intend for Syria. The only thing bringing them together is their mutual hatred for Assad and their desire to overthrow him. But what happens when he's gone? They'll most likely turn on each other, just as the Libyan rebels have and still are since they've ousted Gaddafi.

2) They're not even the biggest opposition movement! Unfortunately that accolade goes to...ISIS.

You also made a comment about FSA being preferable to a 'US puppet' successor, the amusing thing is that the FSA have received most their funding from the US and Saudis, so they'd be the ideal US option :lol:

1. The FSA is the overall umbrella organisation of which many fall underneath, and there are a fair few. Most of the factions that fall underneath are regional groups that have taken up arms as opposed to ideological groups who decided to band together. But also falling under this umbrella are groups that have banded together for the greater good, such as Free Alawites etc. I do agree though, they do portray themselves as being disjointed, and always forming and reforming, but this forming and reforming takes place under the banner of the FSA (like the Levant Front for example). And anyway, the FSA would advocate more autonomy for the Kurds, surely you of all people must agree with that! They've always been about pluralism and diplomacy.

2. Again - if Assad is toppled, the next step has to be IS. There whole basis of IS's caliphate is territorial gains, so it goes without saying who the next fight would be between. The opposition + groups such as al Nusra (who have banded together in the past) would have to then remove the presence of IS from the lands, as coexistence between the two isn't compatible.

And yea, FSA have received funding from US and Saudis, but they're still the best placed to replace the current regime as they are all ex military and parliamentary guys and know how to get things done. Just because they receive this funding doesn't necessarily mean they will place their (the US's) guy at the top. Why would they? They've fought for this freedom, I doubt they'd give it up. You can't compare this situation to Iraq and Libya. I said it before - Libya was all about US NATO chest thumping and bravado. The opposition in Libya weren't as well organised and they didn't have the foresight to see what to do post Qadafi. Iraq was all about oil, and that blame is 100% of the US/UK's shoulders. I actually think they can absolve themselves of some of the shit they've done on how they carry out their actions in Syria. We shall wait and see, I suppose. Also, as Russia now have boots on the ground, it'd be interesting to see the US's reaction to this.
 
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Exporting democracy is a bad idea in general. Middle East, except Israel, culturally and traditionally more fitted for dictatorship, not democracy, regardless of whether people like it or not. That's the biggest reason why every time the West gets involved, it results in yet another bloody mess. Assad isn't the problem, it's much bigger than that, that's why removing him won't resolve anything.
 
Exporting democracy is a bad idea in general. Middle East, except Israel, culturally and traditionally more fitted for dictatorship, not democracy, regardless of whether people like it or not. That's the biggest reason why every time the West gets involved, it results in yet another bloody mess. Assad isn't the problem, it's much bigger than that, that's why removing him won't resolve anything.

Conversely, Assad has lost all legitimacy to lead a nation state. His land and support have eroded to a small sliver of Syria. He simply can't stay.
 
Exporting democracy is a bad idea in general. Middle East, except Israel, culturally and traditionally more fitted for dictatorship, not democracy, regardless of whether people like it or not. That's the biggest reason why every time the West gets involved, it results in yet another bloody mess. Assad isn't the problem, it's much bigger than that, that's why removing him won't resolve anything.
Weren't you accusing me of generalising not long ago?

Removing him is the solution. How can you not get that? I get it - you are pro-Putin, and by extension pro-Assad, so it shows that your opinion on the matter is coloured anyway. Anyone pro-Assad is pro brutality, and pro-totalitarian. Again - this situation is not analogous to Iraq and Libya, the fact that the opposition is made up of high ranking defectors is evidence enough that this is a much different situation.

I'm not fan of Western intervention, but in this case it is justified if Russia is going to have boots on the ground.

Also, your bit about people 'fitted for dictatorship' is absolute nonsense, and on top of that using Israel as an example of normal democracy. Jeez.
 
You'd think so, but of the cities in that list, only Deir ez-Zor is under ISIS control. So clearly Assad has been prioritizing the fight against the other rebels, while leaving ISIS held territory alone in comparison. Why do you think that is?

The rise of ISIS over the other rebels suits Assad - it perpetuates the idea that Syria has a straight choice to make between him and ISIS, making him look like the only realistic alternative to them.

There is any number of reasons for this. The very fact that ISIS is his biggest threat could be exactly why he is targeting other groups. That is, it is safer for his forces to engage weaker forces. Attacking ISIS is a higher risk proposition.

From another light, it is strategy 101. Divide and conquer. When facing a multiple to enemies, tie the strongest enemy up with token forces and annihilate the weakest enemy so that you no longer face multiple enemies. You can probably find that in Sun Tzu ;p
 
There is any number of reasons for this. The very fact that ISIS is his biggest threat could be exactly why he is targeting other groups. That is, it is safer for his forces to engage weaker forces. Attacking ISIS is a higher risk proposition.

From another light, it is strategy 101. Divide and conquer. When facing a multiple to enemies, tie the strongest enemy up with token forces and annihilate the weakest enemy so that you no longer face multiple enemies. You can probably find that in Sun Tzu ;p

That's all of course possible, but it's based on the assumption that Assad sees ISIS as his biggest threat. I'm not sure that he does though. For one thing, ISIS don't have a real presence in any areas Assad deems vital. They have a tiny presence in the Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus, and I think an even smaller presence around Dara'a. But rebel held territory around Damascus and the south is dominated by the other rebel factions, and the same is true of Aleppo City, where ISIS has no presence, and Idlib Province, which Jabhat al-Nusra has just secured and from where the rebels can threaten Assad's Alawite homeland and the coast.

But more important than all that is that the other rebel forces have a legitimacy to them that makes them more dangerous than ISIS to Assad in the long-term. They have the backing of the Gulf states and Turkey, and despite the most effective factions being dominated by al-Qaeda types, they seem to have the full support of the entire anti-Assad population, with the exception of the Kurds. They are presenting themselves as a genuine, realistic alternative to Assad.

Assad knows that if it comes to a straight fight between him and ISIS for control of Syria, he'll win the backing of the international community. ISIS believe that if that happens, they'll win the support of the entire Sunni Muslim world. This is why, I believe, both are tip-toeing around each other and concentrating their main efforts against the other rebels, and why Assad seems happy to abandon large parts of his country and population to ISIS rule without much of a fight.
 
That's all of course possible, but it's based on the assumption that Assad sees ISIS as his biggest threat. I'm not sure that he does though. For one thing, ISIS don't have a real presence in any areas Assad deems vital. They have a tiny presence in the Yarmouk refugee camp in Damascus, and I think an even smaller presence around Dara'a. But rebel held territory around Damascus and the south is dominated by the other rebel factions, and the same is true of Aleppo City, where ISIS has no presence, and Idlib Province, which Jabhat al-Nusra has just secured and from where the rebels can threaten Assad's Alawite homeland and the coast.

But more important than all that is that the other rebel forces have a legitimacy to them that makes them more dangerous than ISIS to Assad in the long-term. They have the backing of the Gulf states and Turkey, and despite the most effective factions being dominated by al-Qaeda types, they seem to have the full support of the entire anti-Assad population, with the exception of the Kurds. They are presenting themselves as a genuine, realistic alternative to Assad.

Assad knows that if it comes to a straight fight between him and ISIS for control of Syria, he'll win the backing of the international community. ISIS believe that if that happens, they'll win the support of the entire Sunni Muslim world. This is why, I believe, both are tip-toeing around each other and concentrating their main efforts against the other rebels, and why Assad seems happy to abandon large parts of his country and population to ISIS rule without much of a fight.

Like I said, any number of reasons. Probably a combination of them, and your take is certainly possible as well.