Is transfer policy, rather than spending the problem?

300m Euros spent from 2011/12 to now. With that kind of money we seriously should have gotten better quality players. RvP, Mata (he has not proven his worth at United yet) and de Gea are the only top top players and while there are some really good players in there as well (Kagawa, Herrera possibly Shaw) we have spent too much money on bringing on so called "potential" players that have not come through.

This is so fecking frustrating 300 million! I dont think anyone could argue about spending money quite frankly because we have and I do believe we are capable of upping the ante if we wanted to. Its the caliber of the players we have targeted and the gross over spending that really frustrate me. In the thread about blaming SAF I was a bit soft tbf but when I checked the numbers there was no doubt in my mind that he made some big transfer blunders in the last few years (along with hits like DDG, RvP). With that much money we could've brought in less players but players of a higher caliber and we would not have to panic about even making top 4.
 
300m Euros spent from 2011/12 to now. With that kind of money we seriously should have gotten better quality players. RvP, Mata (he has not proven his worth at United yet) and de Gea are the only top top players and while there are some really good players in there as well (Kagawa, Herrera possibly Shaw) we have spent too much money on bringing on so called "potential" players that have not come through.

This is so fecking frustrating 300 million! I dont think anyone could argue about spending money quite frankly because we have and I do believe we are capable of upping the ante if we wanted to. Its the caliber of the players we have targeted and the gross over spending that really frustrate me. In the thread about blaming SAF I was a bit soft tbf but when I checked the numbers there was no doubt in my mind that he made some big transfer blunders in the last few years (along with hits like DDG, RvP). With that much money we could've brought in less players but players of a higher caliber and we would not have to panic about even making top 4.

Between 2009 and now we could have signed following players for following amounts of money:

Gudogan £6m (moved from Nurnberg to Dortmund) - fee equivalent of Tosic
Vidal £8m (moved from Leverkusen to Juventus) - fee equivalent of Bebe
Lewandowski £20m (the fee Dortmund wanted for him from a club from abroad last year) - fee equivalent of Ashley Young
Silva £26m (moved from Valencia to City) - fee equivalent of Fellaini
Varane £8m (moved from Lens to Real Madrid) - slightly more expensive than Obertan and Manucho combined
Benatia £11m (moved from Udinese to Roma) - cheaper than Jones and Smalling
Strootman £14m (moved from PSV to Roma) - half the price of Fellaini

That's not even getting into the territory of Aguero, Benzema, Di Maria, Modric etc. before they moved to their current clubs (in Modric's case we could have got him from Dinamo Zagreb for £15m).

Our scouting in the last years has been absolutely downright abysmal. We have failed to spot some obvious talent (Vidal, Silva), failed to compete for less known players who were nonetheless very recognised in the country they played in as top talents (Gundogan, Benatia) or backed down on targets that were willing to join (Lewandowski, Varane) for various reasons.
 
Yes it definitley is:

  • We never seem to buy the players for the positions that we need = Results in an unbalanced team
  • We refuse to pay top dollar for real quality= Results in us making few top signings and lacking real quality
  • We seem to buy alot of average players and systematically overpay for them= Results in us spending alot of money but not getting real quality in return
  • We give underperforming players way to many chances = Results in these players staying to long at the club and us missing the opportune time to sell them and recover part of our investment
The end result is an unbalanced team that lacks real quality and a very bad net spend because we do spend a bit of money on new players but we absolutley don't get any back from selling players.

Examples:

Us buying Mata, very good player, we paid alot of money and he is real quality, but he is a real number 10 and we didn't need anybody for that position. Same with buying RVP and Kagawa in the same summer, one of the two yes, but both seeing as we still had Rooney was not nesc. Result is we are stuck with to many forwards and players that excel in the hole. On the other hand we have not bought any decent midfielders for years, despite us consistenly losing quality in that area, Scholes retiring, losing Pogba to Juve, losing out on Fletcher and Hargreaves due to their injurries, all that time we've been giving Anderson and Cleverley chances but they aren't good enough. Same with the wingers last 2/3 years they have really disappointed but apart from Zaha who also failed we didn't try to adress that situation in the transfermarket. This all creates a very unbalanced team, lacking the players we need and having to many players we don't need.

We don't seem to want to pay top dollar, especially when Fergie was here. Examples are missing our on Hazard on a couple of millions in agent fees, also Modric we could have signed him long before Real got an interest but we never wanted to meet the price Spurs put on him. Last year we didn't offer enough for Fabregas, this year we seem to be dithering around because of transfer fees with Vidal and Di Maria. Once the price goes over £30m we seem very scarred of spending much more. The only example were we paid up was for Mata, and we better be directing our money towards such signing but then for other positions like the midfield, wings and the defense.

We have spend way to much on players like Jones (£16.5m), Young (£18m), Nani,(£17m) Anderson (£20m), Zaha (£15m), Fellaini (£27.5m), Valencia (£16m), Bébé (£7m), Berbatov (£31m), Shaw (£30m), Herrera (£29m). Not that all of them are bad players, but most of them failed, alot of them are considered deadwood right now, some of them have been sold for virtually nothing and every single one of them was overpaid. Shaw and Herrera we'll have to see and wait how they will fare but no doubt £60m for both of them was uncalled for, I don't think any other team in the world would have paid that, no matter what the situation.

Players like Anderson, Nani, Young , Valencia have been kept on for way to long, so long that we are now struggling to offload them and get any sort of decent money for them. We are almost forced to ship them out on a free loan if we want to get rid of them. In short all money we have spend on these players has been wasted and we are left with unsellable players and no transfer income at all.

Something has got to change about our transfer policy because it is absolutley ridiculous and the end result is becoming a real problem now SAF is gone. We should stay away from overpriced average players and direct that money to making real top signings, we'll make fewer of them but atleast they will represent real value for us. If we need numbers, than we should look at cheaper alternatives and not hold up our nose for certain players who are clearly on a bargain deal and we should primarly look at young players with potential who cost almost nothing but will need some time to develop. We should really start buying for the positions we need and start selling some of our players who all occupy the same positions, even if it are top players. Finally if a player is a failure we should be far more ruthless and put him up for sale alot quicker.
You are right. Our policy is like the wife or girlfriend buying a pair of shoes or handbag when she already has dozen of them in the wardrobe. When asked why. Because they looked nice. Not that they were needed.
 
Between 2009 and now we could have signed following players for following amounts of money:

Gudogan £6m (moved from Nurnberg to Dortmund) - fee equivalent of Tosic
Vidal £8m (moved from Leverkusen to Juventus) - fee equivalent of Bebe
Lewandowski £20m (the fee Dortmund wanted for him from a club from abroad last year) - fee equivalent of Ashley Young
Silva £26m (moved from Valencia to City) - fee equivalent of Fellaini
Varane £8m (moved from Lens to Real Madrid) - slightly more expensive than Obertan and Manucho combined
Benatia £11m (moved from Udinese to Roma) - cheaper than Jones and Smalling
Strootman £14m (moved from PSV to Roma) - half the price of Fellaini

That's not even getting into the territory of Aguero, Benzema, Di Maria, Modric etc. before they moved to their current clubs (in Modric's case we could have got him from Dinamo Zagreb for £15m).

Our scouting in the last years has been absolutely downright abysmal. We have failed to spot some obvious talent (Vidal, Silva), failed to compete for less known players who were nonetheless very recognised in the country they played in as top talents (Gundogan, Benatia) or backed down on targets that were willing to join (Lewandowski, Varane) for various reasons.
Omg.:eek: That makes depressing reading.
 
Our judgement seriously went downhill after Ronnie went, it wasn't perfect before. As soon as he went for £80m, someone in their infinite wisdom decided instead of an elite football club we could become some Academy of Football that would take lumps of rock and turn them into diamonds. You have to have the best scouting system on the planet to pull that one off. People go on about the amount we paid for Rio and Wayne, yes we pushed the boat out for them and I don't regret it. However I bet there were just as good players abroad for half the price. The old English premium.
 
Ferguson was an absolute champion at avoiding obvious signings in the late years of his spell here. I love the man but he made plenty of blunders. In 2009 when we lost Ronaldo and Tevez, the obvious step would be to immediately replace them with a player from the top shelf. Aguero and Benzema were both available for reasonable fees and we could have got either of them as our marquee signing for less than half Ronaldo fee - Ferguson opted against it because he thought there was no value in the market.

He insisted on Berbatov even though he disrupted the flow of the team. We desperately needed a midfielder between 2009 and 2013 - a period better than ever for a purchase in that area, a period when the likes of Vidal, Gundogan, Modric have all moved to new clubs for very reasonable fees. We needed a winger, desperately, and the likes of Hazard, Di Maria and (not a winger but still a player who operates effectively from wide areas of the pitch) Silva have all moved for good fees, we showed interest only in Hazard and refused to pay the agent fee which was plain ridiculous even if people think it made us better and dignified at the time.

Our transfer policy has been terrible for a good while. It'll take years to recover from that, look at Liverpool who have only recently found their foot.
 
Between 2009 and now we could have signed following players for following amounts of money:

Gudogan £6m (moved from Nurnberg to Dortmund) - fee equivalent of Tosic
Vidal £8m (moved from Leverkusen to Juventus) - fee equivalent of Bebe
Lewandowski £20m (the fee Dortmund wanted for him from a club from abroad last year) - fee equivalent of Ashley Young
Silva £26m (moved from Valencia to City) - fee equivalent of Fellaini
Varane £8m (moved from Lens to Real Madrid) - slightly more expensive than Obertan and Manucho combined
Benatia £11m (moved from Udinese to Roma) - cheaper than Jones and Smalling
Strootman £14m (moved from PSV to Roma) - half the price of Fellaini

That's not even getting into the territory of Aguero, Benzema, Di Maria, Modric etc. before they moved to their current clubs (in Modric's case we could have got him from Dinamo Zagreb for £15m).

Our scouting in the last years has been absolutely downright abysmal. We have failed to spot some obvious talent (Vidal, Silva), failed to compete for less known players who were nonetheless very recognised in the country they played in as top talents (Gundogan, Benatia) or backed down on targets that were willing to join (Lewandowski, Varane) for various reasons.

While you make a lot of good points, no one team signed all of those players, and not all of those players would have opted to sign for us, Varane being a good example
 
While you make a lot of good points, no one team signed all of those players, and not all of those players would have opted to sign for us, Varane being a good example
Maybe not, but some would have done. Strootman would have been a big addition for us. But of course he is a midfielder so no good to us.
 
Between 2009 and now we could have signed following players for following amounts of money:

Gudogan £6m (moved from Nurnberg to Dortmund) - fee equivalent of Tosic
Vidal £8m (moved from Leverkusen to Juventus) - fee equivalent of Bebe
Lewandowski £20m (the fee Dortmund wanted for him from a club from abroad last year) - fee equivalent of Ashley Young
Silva £26m (moved from Valencia to City) - fee equivalent of Fellaini
Varane £8m (moved from Lens to Real Madrid) - slightly more expensive than Obertan and Manucho combined
Benatia £11m (moved from Udinese to Roma) - cheaper than Jones and Smalling
Strootman £14m (moved from PSV to Roma) - half the price of Fellaini

That's not even getting into the territory of Aguero, Benzema, Di Maria, Modric etc. before they moved to their current clubs (in Modric's case we could have got him from Dinamo Zagreb for £15m).

Our scouting in the last years has been absolutely downright abysmal. We have failed to spot some obvious talent (Vidal, Silva), failed to compete for less known players who were nonetheless very recognised in the country they played in as top talents (Gundogan, Benatia) or backed down on targets that were willing to join (Lewandowski, Varane) for various reasons.

That's a totally unfair representation. No single scouting system picked up all those players.
 
That ... seems irrelevant.

Only on the basis the post was saying we could have signed X, X, X, I was simply saying no other team had managed to the same (While admittedly doing better than us still)
Maybe not, but some would have done. Strootman would have been a big addition for us. But of course he is a midfielder so no good to us.
Of course, there were a few on the list that were really attainable, but also a few on the list that weren't needed, such as Lewandowski
 
Only on the basis the post was saying we could have signed X, X, X, I was simply saying no other team had managed to the same (While admittedly doing better than us still)
Seems pretty irrelevant though? His point was that loads of good midfielders have moved in the last few years, whether they moved to the same club or not isn't important.
 
Only on the basis the post was saying we could have signed X, X, X, I was simply saying no other team had managed to the same (While admittedly doing better than us still)

Of course, there were a few on the list that were really attainable, but also a few on the list that weren't needed, such as Lewandowski
The thing with us fans is that we think everyone supports Manchester United, therefore everyone wants to play for Manchester United.
 
While you make a lot of good points, no one team signed all of those players, and not all of those players would have opted to sign for us, Varane being a good example

That's a totally unfair representation. No single scouting system picked up all those players.

Of course we couldn't have signed them all. 2 or 3 of them would be more than enough, the obvious signing I have a problem with was Vidal. He was available for a small price from Leverkusen, one of the best midfielders in Bundesliga and willing to go abroad he'd have likely picked United who were a top club at the time ahead of Juventus who were in the middle of rebuilding. We completely neglected him at a time when we were desperate for a midfielder of EXACTLY that mould.

I don't mean we should have signed all of them, only pointing out that very good players were available during the time when we mostly went for dross and neglected major issues.
 
From today's Times

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/football/clubs/manchesterunited/article4182556.ece

Ed Woodward comes from a world in which Manchester United are an easy sell. It is why, when asked last spring about the challenge of luring top-class players without the carrot of Champions League football, he spoke of how United’s pre-eminence in the commercial sphere was proof that their enduring allure was undimmed.

With eleven days of the summer transfer window remaining, the United executive vice-chairman is being confronted with an uncomfortable but inescapable truth: that while, for the purposes of adidas, Chevrolet, DHL and other blue-chip companies, the club’s appeal is as great as ever, the reality is very different when it comes to recruiting elite footballers of the type that Woodward seemed to think would rush to Old Trafford even without the prospect of playing Champions League football this season.

The £16 million acquisition of Marcos Rojo from Sporting Lisbon on a five-year contract, which was completed last night, takes United’s transfer expenditure this summer to £73 million following the acquisitions of Luke Shaw and Ander Herrera from Southampton and Athletic Bilbao respectively. It is a considerable outlay by the parsimonious standards of the Glazer regime, but it remains extremely doubtful whether it is anything like enough, under Louis van Gaal or any other coach, to recover the ground that has been lost to their leading rivals at home and abroad.

Woodward spoke at the end of last season, after David Moyes had paid the price for the failure to achieve Champions League qualification, about how the club, their needs pressing and their financial strength unblemished, would spend whatever it would to take to “see the best players play for Manchester United”. There were excitable briefings from the club about their interest in Mats Hummels, Toni Kroos, Cesc Fàbregas, Edinson Cavani and others.

The arrival of a “superstar” — any bloody superstar, so it seemed — was being talked about as a necessary statement of intent from the post-Ferguson regime, as much off as on the pitch.

Not since the summer of 2001 — the signings of Juan Sebastián Verón and Ruud van Nistelrooy, the attempts to lure Lilian Thuram, Bixente Lizarazu, Patrick Vieira and others — have United strived so hard to compete at the top end of the transfer market, but the elite players have gone elsewhere.

For all the club’s attempts to suggest that it was they who called off the lengthy pursuits of Kroos and Fàbregas, now at Real Madrid and Chelsea respectively, the more credible explanation offered elsewhere is that neither they nor Hummels, Bastian Schweinsteiger, Thomas Müller, Arjen Robben or Marco Reus had an over-riding wish to join a club that cannot offer Champions League football this season.

For once, it has not been for a lack of trying on United’s part. There was a serious amount of groundwork put in over Kroos, Reus and Cavani in the final months of last season, just as there was last summer with Fàbregas and, naively, with Cristiano Ronaldo at a time only interested in an improved contract with Real. Contrary to some of the accusations that are directed at the executive vice-chairman, it has not been down to Woodward’s ability or otherwise to close a deal.

No, the reality — a reality that they still hope to disprove through their pursuit of Ángel Di María, the Real Madrid midfielder — is that, in dropping out of the Champions League, United fell down European football’s food chain, at least in the short term. For all their financial clout, much of it undermined by the Glazers’ leveraged buyout, they have never truly been up there with Real or Barcelona, cherry-picking the game’s galacticos, but longstanding geographical disadvantages have been overtaken this summer by the difficulty in enticing leading players without being able to offer Champions League football.

Manchester City managed it in the summer of 2010, signing Yaya Touré, David Silva and Mario Balotelli, among others, but that was at a time when many of the leading clubs across Europe, whether out of complacency or economic circumstances, either at a micro or macro level, were cutting back on their spending. Beyond City and Real, the European clubs who had the greatest net expenditure in the summer of 2010 were Zenit St Petersburg, Spartak Moscow and Rubin Kazan.

United, incidentally, spent that summer signing Anders Lindegaard, Chris Smalling, Marnick Vermijl, Javier Hernández and, most infamously, Bebé, the personification of a three-year period in which United seemed oblivious to the reality that an ageing team, containing several mediocre players, was in danger of being overtaken by City and others sooner or, given Sir Alex Ferguson’s continuing presence in the dugout, later.

Four years on, the landscape is very different. All the big clubs in England and Spain are willing to throw their money around these days — even Arsenal. If Barcelona have been spending like it is going out of fashion, it is because they are about to enter a transfer embargo until January 2016, pending an appeal to the Court of Arbitration for Sport; Arsenal and Chelsea, like Real, simply have money to spend; Liverpool are reinvesting the cash they received from Barcelona for Luis Suárez; Atletico Madrid similarly after losing Diego Costa and Filipe Luís to Chelsea.

It is down to bad management, rather than bad luck, that United find themselves needing to spend like never before in a market when the competition for leading players is more intense than it has ever been. It is certainly down to mismanagement that a net outlay of almost £130 million since Ferguson’s retirement last year has brought no discernible improvement when set against the loss of the influence of Rio Ferdinand, Nemanja Vidic, Patrice Evra, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs and, most importantly of all, Ferguson himself.

Woodward gave the impression that he thought he had all the answers, that his negotiating skills would serve United as well in the transfer market as they had in the commercial sphere. If he has made a mistake — and, being polite about this, he has made several — it has been in approaching the transfer market in a wide-eyed, excitable manner and in underestimating the difficulty of signing top-class players in this of all summers without the carrot of Champions League football.

Enticing leading players to northwest England was always difficult. Without Champions League football and, more damningly, with little sense of strategy, even since Van Gaal’s post-World Cup arrival, it looks more difficult than ever. It is a lesson that United, market-leaders when it comes to sponsorship, are so far learning the hard way.

United set sights on landing target men

Daley Blind

The arrivals of Marcelo Rojo and Luke Shaw lessen the need for a left-sided central defender or full back, but the Ajax player can also perform in midfield and is a possible target.

Arturo Vidal

United would still consider a pre-deadline deal for the Juventus and Chile midfielder on the right terms, but a January move for Kevin Strootman, of Roma, is regarded as the more likely option.

Ángel Di María

If he signals a desire to leave Real Madrid, United will be jostling at the front of the queue, but he is reported to favour Paris Saint-Germain if they can stay within Uefa’s Financial Fair Play regulations.

The ones who got away

Thomas Vermaelen

Signed for Barcelona for £15 million.

Thomas Müller

Staying with Bayern Munich

Toni Kroos

Signed for Real Madrid for £24 million

Mats Hummels

Staying with Borussia Dortmund

Summer spending

Barcelona £116m

Real Madrid £106m

Liverpool £104m

Chelsea £82m

Atletico Madrid £81m

Manchester United £72m

Arsenal £61.5m

Manchester City £52.3m
 
Out of all the threads/reasons floating about wrt the reasons were finding ourselves in this predicament - this has to be the most accurate.

It's not been a question of just how much we spent but who we've bought, which has gotten us in this position.

A mixture of overpaying for PL proven players (instead of our scouting system identifying cheaper, more talented foreigners) and buying players for positions we didn't need (lacking a medium/long term plan almost).

We could potentially have spent the Fellaini & Mata money - & our midfield would have been sorted. I know transfers are a bit more complex then just saying a number & signing someone but it's mind boggling to think Fabregas & Kroos were both cheaper then Fellaini. (I know, contract length etc etc).
 
I think I agree with everything which has been said, at least, on this page of this thread.

The transfer policy of the club has been naive and stubborn the last few years, and I guess the results are starting to kick in with full power.
 
Scary thing is we'll have to replace RVP eventually...And it's not as if strikers come cheap. Must admit it does seem like a mess.
 
Yeah, hence I'm hoping if reports are true about Danny - we should either loan him or sell him with a buy back clause.


Truth is the Glazers will have to spend big for a couple of more seasons. I hope we've got a strategy put in place - Mata and Fellaini weren't exactly the players we needed. But Maria? Suppose he's a player who will make a difference but it's not as if our midfield issues have been addressed. Again, years of underinvestment has put us in this predicament, let's hope the owners are willing to keep on spending. Makes you think how much Vidic, Rio, Evra, Giggs and Scholes would cost in their prime. £300m for the whole lot in the current climate? Well, looks like we've got a bit more cash to spend.
 
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Truth is the Glazers will have to spend big for a couple of more seasons. I hope we've got a structure put in place - Mata and Fellaini weren't exactly the players we needed. But Maria? Suppose he's a player who will make a difference but it's not as if our midfield issues have been addressed. Again, years of underspending has put us in this predicament, let's hope the owners are willing to keep on spending. Makes you think how much Vidic, Rio, Evra, Giggs and Scholes would cost in their prime. £300m for the whole lot in the current climate? Well, looks like we've got a bit more cash to spend.
Yeah I still have a little hope that some of our youth players will make the step up and save us some money. Let's hope even Jones/Rafael & Shaw fulfill their promise - then that's almost our entire defence for the next decade!

But yeah, we need our midfield sorted, especially after pissing away £27m on Afro.
 
United seems to have trouble accepting that they need a serious revamp and it needs to be done quickly and assertively. That's how winning clubs should do. Porto had one of the worst seasons I remember last year and this year we've done what needed to be done in just one transfer window. Deadwood out, talent in, whether by loans (we have one each from Real, Atletico and Barcelona), funds (helped us buy Brahimi and Adrian Lopez) or cheap opportunity reinforcements. On paper it's certainly the best transfer window I remember.

Granted it's a much smaller scale of quality than the kind United needs to bring in, but the resources available aren't comparable either. The point is that the board realized last season can't be repeated, whatever the cost, and showed no hesitation. It may even not work out as well as we hope, but for the time being fans are extremely motivated (after an excruciatingly painful season) and our rivals are scared. We can't blame the people in charge for not trying. There, you just seem to be wasting time and delaying the inevitable.