Is transfer policy, rather than spending the problem?

End the thread. Everything needed is here. Our transfer policy is and has been aweful.

Whoever decided a 15m punt on zaha was required should have got sacked.

I assumed this was Ferguson.

Though we've never in a million years spent 15m on him anyway. That included a lot of add-ons. I'd say we spent closer to 7.5m. Palace were taking more money based on United appearances (which he hasn't made), England caps (that he hasn't won), trophies (errrrrrrr) and I'm sure other variables. If we end up paying the full 15m, it would however prove he was worth it by default.

That's the market these days. As Phil Neville said the other day, an 8m player is now a 20m player and so on.
 
I assumed this was Ferguson.

Though we've never in a million years spent 15m on him anyway. That included a lot of add-ons. I'd say we spent closer to 7.5m. Palace were taking more money based on United appearances (which he hasn't made), England caps (that he hasn't won), trophies (errrrrrrr) and I'm sure other variables. If we end up paying the full 15m, it would however prove he was worth it by default.

That's the market these days. As Phil Neville said the other day, an 8m player is now a 20m player and so on.
Agree, imo there's no way Ander Herrera should cost 30 million for example. Rojo 16 million is also a bit optimistic imo.
 
Agree, imo there's no way Ander Herrera should cost 30 million for example. Rojo 16 million is also a bit optimistic imo.
Price hike in the last 1-2 years.

A very good player is 30m, end of.

A Worldy is 80m. See Bale and Suarez (following Ronaldo in '09).

You'll get someone who is capped for about 20m, however unproven at the highest level.

You might grab something for under 10m if they're either past their prime, a teenager with almost no experience or from the French league.

That's how I'd sum up transfer costs to my grandma these days. Not that she was asking. Or is alive.
 
The net spend stat doesn't suprise me. We're not ruthless enough as a club when it comes to selling players and we keep justifying keeping them with "he's a good squad player" (then when they do actually play, they're anything but good) or keeping them because they came through our academy. We keep them so long, that they reach an age or develop a reputation of not being good enough to the point where they have very little resell value. We have too many of these squad player types who are on big wages, so it's very difficult to find a buyer.

It's definitely the transfer policy rather than spending. We constantly overpay for the players we really want, it's just unfortunate that we've overpaid for the wrong players in a few cases.
 
atm we're all over the place as far as transfer policy goes. We don't really what type of team we're building so we're making every type of signing and its now becoming a bit of a mess. We also for some reason beyond me seem incapable of spotting what's needed to the squad and where our weaknesses lie.
 
Blame Sir Alex with his 'no value' speeches, only to go out and spend 15-20m each on overrated players. There's no value in spending 15-20m on shit, rather than 30-35m on top class.
 
and now with time running guess where the prices are going when Utd gets on the phone?
feckin eejits. should have sorted this out ages ago.
 
One thing that's pissed me off about some of our transfer dealings is that's almost as though the board are saying if we can't have players we're going to spend more than 25 million on each we just won't buy anyone. I was watching Southampton on Sunday and the Wanyama/Schneiderlin partnership looked better than any combination we could put together, despite Herrera looking a great buy. (Yes we have Carrick to come back but he was not good last season and he's getting on.) We could have gone after players like McCarthy and Strootman who would have clearly improved us when Moyes came in, but instead we feel the need to spend all summer going after Alcantara and Fabregas. Where did those players end up? Everton and Roma- two clubs not in the Champions League.

Of course I'm not saying we shouldn't go and try and buy the best players in the world, but not at the detriment of other potential transfers. The net result of that approach last summer was a panic buy in Fellaini, followed by a record deal for a great player who wasn't what we needed most in January.
 
NoArro nailed it perfectly. I think we've wasted a lot of money recently. United seem to have a thing for overpaying for British/England based players, but then baulk at the top dollar that is required for world class players. Despite this, we then go ahead and overpay for average ones, it baffles me at times. The year Mata moved to Chelsea for 23m we went and paid 18m for Ashley Young who was in the last year of his contract. We seem to have no problem paying 16m-18m for average players that is not being pursued by the top teams but when the price hits anything above 30m for top players, we seem to have reservations. We also have this old school believe that the player must want to play for Manchester United by all means and we don't need to pursue them, then you have the "take it or leave it" bid which I've heard few people talk about, in what business does the buyer dictate the price to the seller? And then i get the feeling that we do a lot of haggling and over time this can be a problem as selling clubs can find you unpleasant to do business with.
It's not just Woodward, our whole transfer policy just lacks cohesion - there's no clear plan or sporting project [as it is callled in other parts of Europe]. We haven't addressed the midfield for 5-6 years but we've been spending money signing the likes of Obertan, Jones, Smalling, Bebe, Zaha etc all average players. I always maintain that it's not about spending large sums, but it's about spending money wisely, last year for example, We signed Fellaini for 27m but Thiago, Cabaye and Strrotman were all available for considerably less.
 
We'd never have got 10m for Young. No-one would pay his wages either. He's going to be used as a wing back/squad player until we release him it seems.

Another square peg. We've got a few of those. Every now and then, a player converts successfully from one position to another (Bale is a striking example of this) but no matter how we try at United, it never seems to pay off. I don't really follow other teams too closely, but it seems to me that we tend to suffer from a lot of injuries and when that happens, players get shuffled around into unfamiliar positions. I still can't believe that we've lost Vidic and Rio with no replacements. Rafael is our only recognised right back as is Shaw on the left, and he's nowhere near Paddy Evra's level. Mata isn't a winger, and neither is Kagawa. Valencia is limited and Nani is too erratic. We're still giving house room to Anderson, Zaha, and Fellaini as well, though heaven knows why. I believe that Van Gaal can sort it out but I'm still waiting for his first public outburst against Woodward. Might not be long in coming.

Edit: Just saw that Nani is away on loan. That's a start.
 
Some wise words in this thread, my views:

· We’ve missed on quite a number of players who would improve us massively (Moura, Hazard) and went for cheaper replacements

· Instead of improving our squad after selling Ronaldo, we went for Valencia and Owen

· For a few years most of our buys failed to live up to their potential. This is bad luck.

· We seem to be the only one fighting for value in the market. When we refuse to pay agent fees, other clubs just get it done in a few days.

· To be honest we are not as attractive destination for foreigners as Spain, London or even Munich. We will have to pay over the odds to get those world class players.

· instead of going after players we actually need, we buy players just because they are available (RVP&Mata, as good as they are)

· we’re giving underperforming players way too much time to prove themselves. Anderson is still here guys. He doesn’t even have a squad number ffs.

· Ignoring ageing and declining players (Vidic, Rio, Giggs, Evra in one year; Nani, Valencia decline; Carrick, Fletcher are not exactly young either).


This post describes us on the transfer market perfectly:
NoArro nailed it perfectly. I think we've wasted a lot of money recently. United seem to have a thing for overpaying for British/England based players, but then baulk at the top dollar that is required for world class players. Despite this, we then go ahead and overpay for average ones, it baffles me at times. The year Mata moved to Chelsea for 23m we went and paid 18m for Ashley Young who was in the last year of his contract. We seem to have no problem paying 16m-18m for average players that is not being pursued by the top teams but when the price hits anything above 30m for top players, we seem to have reservations. We also have this old school believe that the player must want to play for Manchester United by all means and we don't need to pursue them, then you have the "take it or leave it" bid which I've heard few people talk about, in what business does the buyer dictate the price to the seller? And then i get the feeling that we do a lot of haggling and over time this can be a problem as selling clubs can find you unpleasant to do business with.

It's not just Woodward, our whole transfer policy just lacks cohesion - there's no clear plan or sporting project [as it is callled in other parts of Europe]. We haven't addressed the midfield for 5-6 years but we've been spending money signing the likes of Obertan, Jones, Smalling, Bebe, Zaha etc all average players. I always maintain that it's not about spending large sums, but it's about spending money wisely, last year for example, We signed Fellaini for 27m but Thiago, Cabaye and Strrotman were all available for considerably less.

Add to that:
We'd be better off spending big bucks on top players/the right players than waste a zillion on several average ones/not needed.

And we are where we are.
 
Everything which has already been said. We paid too much money in fee and wages for average players (no wonder noone then wants them once we try to get rid).

But then we refuse to pay some additional money for top talent because we (and Fergie too) are too stubborn. Hazard the prime example.

And although I was not too keen on Nasri (but he is still 10 times better than Young) the story I have heard is that while City paid the signing on fee immediately to Nasri, we were also willing to pay it, but after 1 or 2 seasons. Ridiculous that we refuse to give in in regards to such relatively small matters.
 
I don't care what he cost. As Van Gaal wanted Rojo, Im delighted we have gotten him.

Likewise, I don't care if we overpay for any other player we sign this transfer window .... plenty of our fans are 'overpaying' to watch the team play live at Old Trafford or via satellite TV and our sponsors are paying record sums to be associated with our club. We have the spend that cash on building our team to the quality our club deserves to be at.

I still want Blind, Vidal and Di Maria and only then will I think our board and owners have given Van Gaal the tools to do his job this season which is get us back into the champions league by playing attacking and attractive football.

So Ed Woodwood .... please spend, spend spend, you wont be getting any criticism from me!
 
. I always maintain that it's not about spending large sums, but it's about spending money wisely, last year for example, We signed Fellaini for 27m but Thiago, Cabaye and Strrotman were all available for considerably less.
jeez! that's depressing to think about. What a waste of 27M.
 
3 managers in 18 months has been the problem. We won't have any consistency in our transfers until we have a settled manager who knows he can plan for the next few years in the way we're going to continue playing.

I think Mata is a great player but I don't believe for a second that we would've signed him had Van Gaal been in charge at the time. He was a signing made to take some pressure off the manager with no thought for how he would fit in. Having him along with two great strikers who need to start is another issue that is now forcing us to sign players to fit a system we've never played before.
 
I don't care what he cost. As Van Gaal wanted Rojo, Im delighted we have gotten him.

Likewise, I don't care if we overpay for any other player we sign this transfer window .... plenty of our fans are 'overpaying' to watch the team play live at Old Trafford or via satellite TV and our sponsors are paying record sums to be associated with our club. We have the spend that cash on building our team to the quality our club deserves to be at.

I still want Blind, Vidal and Di Maria and only then will I think our board and owners have given Van Gaal the tools to do his job this season which is get us back into the champions league by playing attacking and attractive football.

So Ed Woodwood .... please spend, spend spend, you wont be getting any criticism from me!

Was he LVG's plan A or did he come about as a result of the injuries to our squad and inability to land others that we required? Seems weird that a cheapish player with no obvious interest from other clubs, no injuries or anything else that could have held up the deal took so long to sign? o

Like others are saying, would it be better to sign someone for the big bucks, or sign two players like Rojo for the same amount?
 
Was he LVG's plan A or did he come about as a result of the injuries to our squad and inability to land others that we required? Seems weird that a cheapish player with no obvious interest from other clubs, no injuries or anything else that could have held up the deal took so long to sign? o

Like others are saying, would it be better to sign someone for the big bucks, or sign two players like Rojo for the same amount?

I don't think it matters that he was cheapish with no obvious interest from others. I think the main thing is that Van Gaal feels he's the right player to fit his system and philosophy. I don't remember there being obvious interest for Evra and Vidic.
 
Ah the old PR machine at work.....

Most of that was in the last 14 months. Previous to that uniteds net spend was closer to evertons then any of those other top clubs....
 
I don't think it matters that he was cheapish with no obvious interest from others. I think the main think is that Van Gaal feels he's the right player to fit his system and philosophy. I don't remember there being obvious interest for Evra and Vidic.

But why did we wait so long to sign him if there were no obvious obstacles in our way. Both Rio and Evra were signed early on in Jan, Fergie knew what and who he wanted, whereas we've waited so late to sign Rojo.

@Drummer Previous to that we had SAF who brought success without the need for signing loads of players without selling any. It highlights the problem that the new team of Woody +1 is failing to spend the money wisely and that the money is there.
 
Ah the old PR machine at work.....

Most of that was in the last 14 months. Previous to that uniteds net spend was closer to evertons then any of those other top clubs....

But we have still spent money very badly since 2007.
 
But why did we wait so long to sign him if there were no obvious obstacles in our way. Both Rio and Evra were signed early on in Jan, Fergie knew what and who he wanted, whereas we've waited so late to sign Rojo.

Well, I don't think he was our first choice. Think Vermaelen was our first choice. Also, I think there were a few problems with the third party nonsense and all that.
 
Well, I don't think he was our first choice. Think Vermaelen was our first choice. Also, I think there were a few problems with the third party nonsense and all that.

Good point about the 3rd party stuff. Crazy how players can be owned by individual people/businesses. That probably did slow us down.
 
Many, many excellent posts in this thread. I have a few theories as well. First off, I think our transfer policy was heavily influenced by squad rotation. We were able, under SAF's later years, to successfully challenge on multiple fronts by rotating a massive squad. We had a full compliment of 25 players motivated and ready to step in for injuries. Injuries are a killer for any teams season.

Let's contrast that to some other approaches:

At Everton under Moyes, he had 11 nailed on starters. He'd use regularly 14 or 15. Going any deeper and he was in emergency mode. Most teams operate in a similar way. I've heard it said that Moyes failed because it was likened to learning to drive a Lamborghini. I think it was more difficult than that to run the customized system SAF and his staff had in place. It was probably more like learning to drive the millennium falcon without Han, Chewy or an instruction manual.

I think we kept players here for far too long because:
1. We weren't willing to sacrifice depth at any position in case an injury crisis strikes.
2. We're just not interested in making a profit in the transfer market. We just don't view player acquisition as a potential income. We build up depth for the long term squad rotation.
3. We don't sign players to fill in spots or meet the homegrown quota. We expect the entire 25 man squad to contribute over the course of a season.
4. We like that family atmosphere, and don't banish players to train on their own or in the reserves unless there's no alternative. We don't operate like City or Tottenham did in this respect, with Bridge or Adebayor for example.
5. I honestly think not many players wanted to leave United. Probably for reason #4. You can't force a player to transfer. You can marginalize them to the point of demanding one sometimes.

Without SAF at the helm, this policy fell apart. (Side note: I think it was coming apart under SAF, but since we won the league and all maybe that's not a popular opinion)

I'll shed not one tear when Anderson, Nani, Zaha and other non contributors depart. But one thing that still sticks in my craw is thus: Berbatov won the golden boot, the writing was on the wall the whole summer, we kept him, didn't use him, and wasted an opportunity to make some decent cash and denied a genuinely talented player of an entire season. And for what? In case Rooney, Welbeck and Chicharito all got injured? Madness.

We can disagree on the names, who we took a punt and we genuinely expected to fill a role. Almost all teams take a punt here and there, Madrid excluded. My point is we spent (and had our strategy revolve around) having a 25 man balanced squad, at the expense of building the strongest 11 with 4 or 5 higher end backups.

Either that or our policy has just been North Korea bat poo crazy and I'm as baffled as any of you.
 
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Highest net spenders in Europe (last 5 transfer windows)
  • PSG (£165m)
  • Man Utd (£165m)
  • Barcelona (£155m)
  • Chelsea (£137m)
  • Real Madrid (£126m)
  • Man City (£126m)

Why not look at the total net spend from Glazers since they took over?
Football Season Purchases Sales Net Spend
2005 2006 19,500,000 18,500,000 1,000,000
2006 2007 18,600,000 14,500,000 4,100,000
2007 2008 61,750,000 35,200,000 26,550,000
2008 2009 35,750,000 2,000,000 33,750,000
2009 2010 21,000,000 85,500,000 (64,500,000)
2010 2011 27,200,000 13,650,000 13,550,000
2011 2012 52,900,000 14,750,000 38,150,000
2012 2013 63,000,000 11,900,000 51,100,000
2013 2014 67,700,000 1,000,000 66,700,000
2014 2015 56,000,000 8,300,000 47,700,000
Total spent 218,100,000


In total, the net spend comes to 218MM quid, which over 10-yrs translates to just under 22MM quid per annum.

This 'last 5 transfer windows' statistic sounds arbitrary and masks the real damage done by the Glazers and the under-investment that has gone at this club for too long!
 
This 'last 5 transfer windows' statistic sounds arbitrary and masks the real damage done by the Glazers and the under-investment that has gone at this club for too long!

Yes, but you're overlooking the fact that when we had SAF we didn't NEED serious amounts of investment. We still won so many titles, won and challenged for CL titles and remained the best team in England and one of the best in Europe. We could afford to spend the money we didn't need paying for the debt, improving facilities, etc. Now, when we do need the money available we've had it and we've spent it. Just not wisely.
 
I think SAF intended to get shut of Rooney hence having plenty of squad depth in the 10 position. Why Moyes signed Mata as well as Fellani for that position is a mystery. We have the best keeper and strike force in the league and then not a great deal in between.
 
I'd say that the biggest problem is disproportionately high wages paid to average/shit players. We've got a couple of players we should simply sell because they're a) not good enough b) don't fit the system c) injury prone d) haven't fulfilled their potential since 1410 and sometimes one player matches more than just one category. Then when we want to sell, other clubs don't want to pay the same kind of crazy wages and those players would rather sit on the bench and get their huge salaries than take a pay cut and play more often. This is blocking money for potential new signings and makes our recent business look like a pile of shit because there are no departures for which we make reasonable money.
 
Yes, but you're overlooking the fact that when we had SAF we didn't NEED serious amounts of investment. We still won so many titles, won and challenged for CL titles and remained the best team in England and one of the best in Europe. We could afford to spend the money we didn't need paying for the debt, improving facilities, etc. Now, when we do need the money available we've had it and we've spent it. Just not wisely.

As I have said its clear that united were successful in spite of the glazers.

The question mark that will never be answered is was SAF allowed to purchase the players he wanted, when he requested it?

People can choose to keep their head in the sand but SAF is retired with a nice position at the club and he was very successful. In what world would it benefit him to publically expose the transfer limitations put on him by the glazers?

His spending patterns changed dramatically during the glazer erra and I don't believe anybody thinks he didn't cherish other players that the club simply wouldn't stump up the cash.
 
In the main yes. The scouting's been crap. It was the one thing Moyes was correct on and we were hearing how the club were looking at his ideas because they know it's not been working and something has to change.

We've wasted far too much money, time and squad depth on punts that went absolutely nowhere and don't justify the odd success like Hernandez due to the sheer volume of failures outweighing the successes.
 
Unless we make at least two massive signings before the deadline I would be bitterly disappointed by the lack of ambition or failure of the club to start correcting a downward spiral that started the season we sold Ronaldo and hit full effect this year.
 
You can go to the last 7 windows and you're still the highest net spend in the PL, it's obviously the transfer policy rather than the lack of spending money.
 
Problem is chopping and changing managers. Look and spurs and chelsea over the years, 100s of millions wasted on players the next manager doesn't need. Changing managers leaves players by the wayside and wastes money. LVG would never sign Mata in a million years and now we have to live with that. Moyesy didn't want kagawa or zaha. SAF wanted Roo and RVP even though it was clearly going to be a big problem for the next manager.

This is why we need to just stick to one bloody manager for a few years whether we make top 4 or not
 
If we look at our current midfield, which for me is the heart beat of our system problem. I will highlight the signings since 2012, because that is when the signings in the midfield started too happen

Current midfield
CM - carrick herrera fletcher anderson cleverley fellaini
wingers - janazaj valencia young nani
AM - kagwa mata

what does the midfield need? for now, 1 CM and 1 wide player
our signings since 2012? kagwa fellaini herrera mata
who is not good enough? fletcher anderson cleverley fellaini kagwa young valencia nani, nani is on loan, but he is still a united player

Herrera was needed, we did not need mata when we had kagwa, and fellaini was not good enough. Fellaini and mata have cost united 64 million, that cash could have been spent on the positions we have needed, a winger and a couple of CM players. So while the glazers must shadow a huge burden of the transfer problems, that 64 million has not been spent wisely, and we will see with herrera. Its been a combination of money waisted, and the glazers have been given managers like fergie a tight budged. The money has been waisted, and that 64 million on mata and fellaini, has not improved united one bit
 
we needed to get rid of:
evra rio buttner fellaini anderson young valencia and kagawa
we have gotten rid of:
evra rio vida buttner. i doubt young valecia fellaini and kagawa are going anywhere.
young and valencia manage to handicap the attack, especially when young in playing on the left.
we need to clear out the clutter please.
lets have young fellaini and ando out ASAP please. Valencia and Kagawa can hang around till the next window maybe, but those three have to go.
 
I agree that its been the transfer policy/decision making thats been the problem, not the funds. Those numbers dont lie.
 
Why not look at the total net spend from Glazers since they took over?
Football Season Purchases Sales Net Spend
2005 2006 19,500,000 18,500,000 1,000,000
2006 2007 18,600,000 14,500,000 4,100,000
2007 2008 61,750,000 35,200,000 26,550,000
2008 2009 35,750,000 2,000,000 33,750,000
2009 2010 21,000,000 85,500,000 (64,500,000)
2010 2011 27,200,000 13,650,000 13,550,000
2011 2012 52,900,000 14,750,000 38,150,000
2012 2013 63,000,000 11,900,000 51,100,000
2013 2014 67,700,000 1,000,000 66,700,000
2014 2015 56,000,000 8,300,000 47,700,000
Total spent 218,100,000


In total, the net spend comes to 218MM quid, which over 10-yrs translates to just under 22MM quid per annum.

This 'last 5 transfer windows' statistic sounds arbitrary and masks the real damage done by the Glazers and the under-investment that has gone at this club for too long!
We didn't have a problem with the team for the first 4-5 years with the Glazers. Sure we weren't spending loads and obviously the Glazers held us back, but the squad was fine and Fergie produced one of the strongest teams we ever had in 07-09 and we won loads. After then is when the problems started and we did start to spend pretty much 50m per season. It's just been consistently on squad players. Fergie before would spend big on a potential star or top class player and then have a few squad players, but would always have the future top class players around like Ronaldo and Rooney. Since Ronaldo left, we've gone exclusively to just bringing in squad players (until summer 2012). The defence is a bit of a sticky point, because Rio, Vidic and Evra were amazing for so long, and he did have Evans coming through, bought Jones and Smalling, all excellent young players at the time who just haven't fulfilled their potential. But signing Young, Valencia, Berbatov, Bebe, Buttner, and leaving the center midfield untouched went on for too long. That's just so much money wasted on squad players when we could have bought top class players for similar prices as the first 3.

The summer window in 2012 was a huge feck up by us as well IMO and one that is costing us today and last season. First of all, Kagawa was a good signing IMO, loads of potential, but relatively cheap as well at 12m because he only had a year left on his contract. Fergie clearly had a plan in mind and was going after Hazard and Lucas Moura and we looked set to get them both at different points (though obviously wouldn't get both, it was one or the other), 2 future stars on the wings. For both, Fergie backed out because of agent fee's. So because of a couple of million that he threw away on Bebe, we went into the new season with Nani, Young and Valencia on the wings instead of those, and then Eden Hazard, or Lucas Moura. Oh and we signed Van Persie just for shits despite our forwards being our strongest positing, having Rooney just come off the back of a 34 goal season, Welbeck have a very promising season and Hernandez being an excellent squad option capable of getting 20 a season.

Signing Van Persie was great at the time and all, but it basically fecked over 4 players simultaneously. Rooney got unsettled at no longer being the main man, Welbeck was forced to play on the wing, Hernandez had less playing time (though still had a good season at first), and Kagawa was forced to play on the wing. Fergie basically threw away all the plans he had for the team and just went to win one last title with a quick fix and ignore all the other problems (oh and we lost Pogba that summer too so there went our future midfield prospect). Then he obviously retired and Moyes came and only made it worse and wasted 65m on 2 more #10's as if we didn't have enough already, so here we are, with Mata, Fellaini and RvP all players we'd probably be better off if we never signed, as would the rest of our squad.
 
Yes, but Shaw, Herrera and Rojo point to a potential sane "Woodward era post-Moyes" policy of recruiting technically skilled and athletic players who have yet to hit their prime but already played very well at high levels and play positions where we clearly need better production.
 
Yes, but Shaw, Herrera and Rojo point to a potential sane "Woodward era post-Moyes" policy of recruiting technically skilled and athletic players who have yet to hit their prime but already played very well at high levels and play positions where we clearly need better production.
Yeah agreed. The last few years we've constantly been ignoring our main problem (midfield) and strengthening the depth of other positions where our starters were already really strong. Goes back for a while now. The defenders are obviously useful to have now but it was perhaps a bit unnecessary to have Smalling, Rio, Vidic, Jones and Evans all in the squad. We had loads of injuries though so they all came in hand, but everyone knew even then that the main problem was the midfield, not just buying forwards and center backs. There came a point where Fergie stopped buying where the team was weak in and rather just went for the 2 positions he felt were the most important on the pitch to get results irrespective of actual play.