No. Rooney is our best player.
Is Rooney our 'Stevie G' in disguise?
- Thread starter Raees
- Start date
You misread me. I said multiple times Rooney IS the superior striker with the form of RvP and Falcao at the moment.
But you got to understand the consequences of playing with 2 strikers. It ALWAYS will sacrifice 1 thing: A balanced midfield OR forward wingers/width. I'd prefer both a balanced midfield and have wingers over squeezing in a bunch of big names just for the sake of it. because thats what we are doing at the moment, and everyone else wants that most of the times also (just with different positions).
Ye thats why Mata with over 400 min less played then Rooney has more chance creation, more key passes, better passing accuracy, nearly equal assist (and rooney got 2/4 assist out of corners), and a million less interceptions/possesion loss.
But sure, lets keep the "bigger name" in instead of the better performing players.
Those stats are pointless especially the key passes stats. You only need a pair of functioning eyes to Rooney has played more defense splitting passes than Mata has this season. Even more so when you consider that Rooney's average position has been a lot deeper than Mata's.
And your stats aren't even correct. Even from a pure statistical point of view, Rooney has created more chances and has the same number of key passes per game in addition to having more dribbles. Both have more than a 50% rate of backward passes and that's more worrying for Mata given he's supposed to be our creative lynchpin.
These are exactly my feelings on Gerrard and Rooney. I've actually had this opinion on Rooney being our Gerrard for quite a while.
If you look at the so called big players Ferguson sold throughout his time with us, you'd see that he is aware of falling into the so called trap of relying on individual players for a sustained period of time.
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I didn't say he never had players who stayed long at the club. I'm saying he never did rely on players to be the mainstays for more than they needed to be. Giggs and Scholes hardly played every game well into their thirties. Nothing like how Gerrard is being handled now.
He tried hard to accommodate Keane's failing body, I admit, by playing him in a deeper position late in his career, but that's a testament to Keane's attitude and mentality more than anything. And he still got rid of Keane eventually (and unceremoniously) when Keane was perceived to be more of a hindrance than an asset.
I could quote a few pictures on players who Fergie sold after they were perceived to be done. Beckham, Stam, Van Nistelrooy. Van Nistelrooy, still the best striker of Fergie's era, was effectively replaced by a young combination consisting of a striker from Fulham, Saha and two teenagers in Rooney and Ronaldo. Ferguson never kept things stagnant.
You think Van Gaal is keeping things stagnant by playing the current England captain, and 3rd highest goal scorer for club and country? Is there any coincidence we're struggling to find the net while he's not playing up top do you think?
As for relying on players, didn't we end up bringing one of those lads out of retirement we were so reliant on him?
Also non of Becks, Ruud or Stam were percieved to be done as players, they all got on Fergies wrong side and thats why they were shown the door. He placated Keane, and Cantona when it suited him, and because we were incredibly reliant on them.
Yes. I thought he was at his best playing as a #9 in 09/10 by himself where he had a lesser involvement in the build up play. As he has become more involved in the build up play our general play has declined more and more every year.
Surely thats to do with how the manager is choosing to play him rather than indicative of some sort of problem on Rooneys part
If I'm totally honest I lost faith in Rooney when SAF wanted to sell him but at the same time I have to give respect where it's due and Rooney has worked extremely hard and deserves the captaincy.
I'd like to see Rooney behind Wilson to see how that goes because let's face it dropping RVP and Falcao won't effect us one bit, in fact its like playing with 9 men when there on the pitch so it might be advantage to drop them!
Also Rooney ain't formed that many partnerships with his fellow stickers over the years so maybe playing him as a AM might be a better option?
I'd like to see Rooney behind Wilson to see how that goes because let's face it dropping RVP and Falcao won't effect us one bit, in fact its like playing with 9 men when there on the pitch so it might be advantage to drop them!
Also Rooney ain't formed that many partnerships with his fellow stickers over the years so maybe playing him as a AM might be a better option?
Super post.
Successive managers have kept playing him deeper every season. They all have different philosophies, but still ended up with the same result.Surely thats to do with how the manager is choosing to play him rather than indicative of some sort of problem on Rooneys part
After spending 150+75=225 million ... ... ... Rooney is still our best player!
Well considering the amount we spent on him over 10 years ago, you would probably hope so.
He wasn't playing as a main striker for most seasons he's been here. Just sheer revisionism in here. In 10/11 Rooney was absolutely dire for the first half of the season and Berbatov played and scored loads for us. We ruined him when he's the one who came out wanting to leave the club? Also to that other post, the whole passing out to Valencia thing is a Rooney trait that's been there since Valencia joined the club. Not when he dropped deeper. The past 2 seasons we've seen nothing that shows Rooney would play better up top. Easy to say stuff like that when we're not playing great.
At the moment Rooney definitely is the Stevie G of the team, in his current role where he shouldn't be playing at all but is because he's captain. Feck knows how LVG thinks it gives us more balance when arguably it gives us none., at least going by the performances. LVG has been a letdown in this regard.
How many games did Rooney play as a CF/SS this season? If I'm not wrong he only played there for the initial 3 games and was rather disappointing (so too were the team as a whole, in an alien formation but that game against Burnley was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from Rooney). Although I'd prefer Rooney up top, you could see why LVG is loathe to use him in that position judging by those few performances alone.
Esp since he probably feels that Rooney's graft and tenacity in a deeper position are more valuable right now than his goalscoring potential, considering that this is a team which struggles to build up play and provide adequate service for the forwards.
Then he was excellent in the deeper No 10 role in a diamond but we were leaky defensively and the only other midfielder who provides the steel and bite (Fellaini) which LVG craves is ill suited to that formation.
So we are now stuck with Rooney in midfield for that 'balance' and physicality that LVG wants in midfield. I can understand it to a certain extent when it comes to playing against the big teams or away from home (Rooney was pretty good in midfield against Arsenal for eg) but against cannon fodder like Burnley at home, we surely must have more faith in the team. I get that the defense is unreliable and shaky but ffs, the least we can ask of the team is to outplay Burnley at home.
It just results in better and more suitable midfielders being underutilised and leaves us with 2 buggers up front, who can't stretch play, can't beat their man, can't fashion their own chances, one who's phlegmatic and the other who can't control a bag of cement to save his life. Jeez...
I'm not overly fond of Rooney but I'd say it isn't exactly entirely his fault that we are using him in an alien position, with a shaky defense to shield and with 2 forwards ahead who are butt awful at the moment. That is not to absolve him of all blame, he can obviously do better in midfield but we are setting him up to fail at the moment and it's showing.
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Sums it up really. LVG knows that Rooney would be best up top or in that No 10 role but feels he can't use him there right now. Like I said I agree with it to a certain extent but he's overplaying it.
Esp since he probably feels that Rooney's graft and tenacity in a deeper position are more valuable right now than his goalscoring potential, considering that this is a team which struggles to build up play and provide adequate service for the forwards.
Then he was excellent in the deeper No 10 role in a diamond but we were leaky defensively and the only other midfielder who provides the steel and bite (Fellaini) which LVG craves is ill suited to that formation.
So we are now stuck with Rooney in midfield for that 'balance' and physicality that LVG wants in midfield. I can understand it to a certain extent when it comes to playing against the big teams or away from home (Rooney was pretty good in midfield against Arsenal for eg) but against cannon fodder like Burnley at home, we surely must have more faith in the team. I get that the defense is unreliable and shaky but ffs, the least we can ask of the team is to outplay Burnley at home.
It just results in better and more suitable midfielders being underutilised and leaves us with 2 buggers up front, who can't stretch play, can't beat their man, can't fashion their own chances, one who's phlegmatic and the other who can't control a bag of cement to save his life. Jeez...
I'm not overly fond of Rooney but I'd say it isn't exactly entirely his fault that we are using him in an alien position, with a shaky defense to shield and with 2 forwards ahead who are butt awful at the moment. That is not to absolve him of all blame, he can obviously do better in midfield but we are setting him up to fail at the moment and it's showing.
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Sums it up really. LVG knows that Rooney would be best up top or in that No 10 role but feels he can't use him there right now. Like I said I agree with it to a certain extent but he's overplaying it.
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I'm almost sure that I didn't said that he was playing upfront most of the time, I said that he was a very good striker.
And whether he was the main striker or the second striker, he was still a striker.
Anyway in defense of LVG, a few points need to be addressed more often on here. Is Rooney's defensive work, interceptions, tackles, duelling prowess etc in midfield as good (relative to other midfielders at least) as LVG makes it out that it's worth sacrificing his incisiveness and goalscoring potential up front? Are we more solid or 'balanced' in midfield with Rooney there?
People rush to lament his inconsistent passing and lack of incisiveness on the ball but his off the ball defensive work curiously goes unnoticed or is flippantly dismissed as just 'putting in a shift'. I wouldn't mind if someone could post the defensive stats of Rooney in midfield in comparison with other midfielders.
Anyway here's an old post which encapsulates my thoughts on this issue.
People rush to lament his inconsistent passing and lack of incisiveness on the ball but his off the ball defensive work curiously goes unnoticed or is flippantly dismissed as just 'putting in a shift'. I wouldn't mind if someone could post the defensive stats of Rooney in midfield in comparison with other midfielders.
Anyway here's an old post which encapsulates my thoughts on this issue.
The thing is, right now, England have a better bunch of strikers than United, yet they'll still play him up front. United have a better midfield than England, yet we're playing him in midfield.
With injuries, while I don't like it, I accept Rooney in midfield but with practically everyone fit, playing Rooney in midfield is doing no one any good.
I suppose that it's because of Rooney versatility and the fact that he is a very complete footballer, they all fall into the "I want Rooney involved as much as possible" trap, when they should limit his role and exploit all his energy and tools in and around the box, Rooney is a goalscorer who assists a lot, there is nothing more to expect from him.
Hasn't he deserved it? I mean, he's been with us for 10 years, and despite the contract issues, he's always give us consistent seasons, regardless of where he's played.
Then, as much as I like, you have Falcao on nearly the same amount as Rooney, and so far he hasn't done feck all to justify that.
I was thinking following the Burnley game also. Obviously we can point to the position Rooney is currently deployed in as one where we won't see the best of him, as you want him closer to the goal as possible. At the same time however, would Rooney really perform a great deal better than say van Persie? It's been such a long time since he was regularly deployed as the lone frontman (though he played far forward as part of a strike partnership under Moyes) that I'm really not sure whether he would be good enough as our main striker leading the line. Clearly doesn't have the same dynamism and explosiveness as yesteryear.
One of van Persie or Falcao needs to be dropped though undoubtedly. That would enable Rooney to play further forward and bring an actual, proper midfielder into the team. I'm sure we'd see a discernible difference to the teams performance, but he might be better as a #10. Not convinced that he necessarily has to play up top.
One of van Persie or Falcao needs to be dropped though undoubtedly. That would enable Rooney to play further forward and bring an actual, proper midfielder into the team. I'm sure we'd see a discernible difference to the teams performance, but he might be better as a #10. Not convinced that he necessarily has to play up top.
The funny thing is everyone just completely fails to mention Rooney's performance and position for the national team.
No. Rooney is one of our best players, should always be on the team sheet. People will only realise how important he was when he leaves.
Yeh I was just saying I think people forget how big that move actually was, especially considering it was 10 years ago.
Said nothing about his performance levels.
My point is, it wouldn't have been a disaster if Ferguson wasn't retiring, and got rid of Rooney in what turned out to be his last season. I completely understand Van Gaal's, and Moyes' decisions to keep Rooney on. Only Ferguson could have risked not doing well in the short term after selling Rooney. It's all conjecture at this point, but had Ferguson sold Rooney, we would have had 3 good strikers in Welbeck, RVP and Hernandez with Kagawa playing behind them. There were also rumours of Ferguson being interested in Lewandowski too. Oh well.
Looking forward, I'm glad he's being played up front. Much better than the waste of space and wages that Falcao is.
I don't like the idea of Rooney having a guaranteed spot in the team sheet. He's gone through patches before where leaving him out would be an entirely reasonable thing to do and I wouldn't like to think we'll play him through that even if it's harming the team.
That said, I don't see how he wouldn't be a key member of the first team for a while. He's our best striker atm, he can easily be picked ahead of any of our other #10s and LVG trusts him in midfield too. I seriously doubt that we're going to strengthen all of those positions to the point where playing him is a hindrance....
That said, I don't see how he wouldn't be a key member of the first team for a while. He's our best striker atm, he can easily be picked ahead of any of our other #10s and LVG trusts him in midfield too. I seriously doubt that we're going to strengthen all of those positions to the point where playing him is a hindrance....
I'm tired, Robocop, tired. You ever get tired? I'll get some kip and put more into it tomorrow.
Perfect summary really.
Rooney is our second best player, only behind David De Gea.
Gerrard as stated by our Liverpool fans in this thread is pivotal to their success, which says it all really.
Although.
Admission that it wasn't Gerrard but the strikers that made the difference last season, kind of negating his first point and basically seeing it exactly how it was with his second point.
Barney thinks it was the strikers, he's finally got that right, bet there's a post or two on here with a similar claim too.
Although.
Admission that it wasn't Gerrard but the strikers that made the difference last season, kind of negating his first point and basically seeing it exactly how it was with his second point.
Barney thinks it was the strikers, he's finally got that right, bet there's a post or two on here with a similar claim too.
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Rooney isn't our Gerrard.
Circumstances mean we haven't got a Gerrard.
Robson was almost our Gerrard but unlike Gerrard - history will show he won in the end.
Circumstances mean we haven't got a Gerrard.
Robson was almost our Gerrard but unlike Gerrard - history will show he won in the end.
Rooney can't be what's wrong with this team, even when he doesn't play we don't look any better despite many claiming he's a hindrance or whatever. Mind you, this has been the case for many many seasons. When have we had a team that looks somewhat functional without him play? I dare anyone to look throughout all the periods with his involvement(he's quite injury prone so it shouldn't be hard) and show me a period where you felt we were a better team without him. I promise you its going to be a bit like ghost hunting.
What has held us back though is the quality of the squad around rooney. Often doing patch up jobs with players of limited ability being tasked to do things they actually can't. With the likes of rooney over compensating for these players who had no business wearing the famous red shirt.
Sir alex let our midfield dedcay for so many years. To an extent that our best midfielder was a 38 year old winger at some point and he even had to bring back another legend to somewhat keep the ship going. He kept faith in hopeless wide men who were clearly not up to par. Continued to have faith that some defenders who clearly just don't have as much potential as first predicted by many.
The truth is, wayne rooney is not a hinderance. The hinderance is what has been around him for the past few years. Even the great RVP has come to realise just how difficult it can be to play for a team with so many limited players after his initial honeymoon period. When rooney had his first strop, many complained. The truth is this is exactly what he was talking about. Now we're throwing money left, right and center trying to put out the fire and it seems as though even a manager with the sort history as van gaal is struggling.
What has held us back though is the quality of the squad around rooney. Often doing patch up jobs with players of limited ability being tasked to do things they actually can't. With the likes of rooney over compensating for these players who had no business wearing the famous red shirt.
Sir alex let our midfield dedcay for so many years. To an extent that our best midfielder was a 38 year old winger at some point and he even had to bring back another legend to somewhat keep the ship going. He kept faith in hopeless wide men who were clearly not up to par. Continued to have faith that some defenders who clearly just don't have as much potential as first predicted by many.
The truth is, wayne rooney is not a hinderance. The hinderance is what has been around him for the past few years. Even the great RVP has come to realise just how difficult it can be to play for a team with so many limited players after his initial honeymoon period. When rooney had his first strop, many complained. The truth is this is exactly what he was talking about. Now we're throwing money left, right and center trying to put out the fire and it seems as though even a manager with the sort history as van gaal is struggling.
Rooney has been an excellent player and will go down as a record breaker, rightly so.
Despite this he is now past it. We are watching the Keanos final seasons when he takes to the field. A clapped out captain.
Despite this he is now past it. We are watching the Keanos final seasons when he takes to the field. A clapped out captain.
For all the stick RVP deserves for his performance (I'd get shot ASAP).. Rooney was just as bad, did he do anything of note on the ball apart from that lay off in the first half even Kevin Davies would be capable of. As a top level forward, he has no flair anymore.. where is the ability to put defenders on the backfoot and turn defence into attack. Compare how shit scared Gomis made us compared to their reaction when Rooney was in possession..
If we had Aguero and Gomis up top for example, we'd have put 4 past them comfortably.
If we had Aguero and Gomis up top for example, we'd have put 4 past them comfortably.
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