He can defend. The only thing he can't do defensively is track runners. He was never deployed as a defensive midfielder, anyways. He was used as the deepest midfielder. Last season that worked a charm because he had so much movement ahead of him which allowed him to run the show. This season it hasn't worked as well because the strikers we have been forced to use up until December were essentially statues.
Is Rooney our 'Stevie G' in disguise?
- Thread starter Raees
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He can defend. The only thing he can't do defensively is track runners. He was never deployed as a defensive midfielder, anyways. He was used as the deepest midfielder. Last season that worked a charm because he had so much movement ahead of him which allowed him to run the show. This season it hasn't worked as well because the strikers we have been forced to use up until December were essentially statues.
This is such a ridiculous thing to say. It completely forgets everything good Gerrard did last season to actually put us in the position to be able to challenge for the title. Gerrard was, after Yaya Toure, the best midfielder in the country last season and was crucial to the way we played.
I think he'll be a massive loss both on and off the pitch. Henderson is the one player that I think will benefit massively from Gerrard going. Other than that, I think the club is better with him.
That's not entirely accurate. It worked a charm going forwards, it was a disaster defensively. The lack of defensive cover supplied by your midfield (Gerrard being the main culprit) was only negated by Sturridge and Suarez both hitting new career highs - it would have been stupid to bank them on both of them retaining that form over the course of another season even in an alternate universe where Suarez had stayed and Sturridge not gotten injured.
edit - to put it simply, Gerrard's 'effectiveness' last season was
You are absolutely right on the rooney part. But lets not fool ourselves we seen it so many times through the years that a 2 man midfield just gets obliterated by a good team playing 433/4231. 4222 is just 442 with offensive wingers, the problem there lies that even in a 442 our midfield doesn't hold with the support of wingers.
City played a likewise system with there 42211 which would be suited for Man United. The main difference between City's play style and United's is that city uses narrow wingers/wide cams (Silva/Nasri) and even tough we have wingers which can easily play narrow, for some reason (most likely manager decisions by SAF, Moyes and LVG) they play extremely wide. Although it does work better with 2 fast strikers, and not an RvP.
But yeah i wouldn't mind seeing this:
DDG
Rafael - Smalling - Rojo - Shaw
Blind - Herrera
Di Maria - - - Januzaj
Rooney
RvP
Rafael - Smalling - Rojo - Shaw
Blind - Herrera
Di Maria - - - Januzaj
Rooney
RvP
And your quote about Rooney wasn't?
Rooney is a player who's contributed to many PL winning campaigns and a CL win, yet he's 'a hindrance to us'?
Don't troll if you can't take a little trolling back
Hm. Well, much of that is true. Regarded in isolation, as the phrase goes. And given the fact we're presumably still some sort of "top" club, the latter meaning a club that should, strictly speaking, be on Real's level.
Some of it is bollocks, though. Or close to it. Rooney can play for a top club as a second striker (of the sort you can plausibly use in a present-day formation) or as a main/sole striker. I see no evidence he has lost his ability to do so. He hasn't been utilized properly as either for two and a half seasons (or so), though, so my judgment ain't exactly scientific - but what can you do? Empirical data are insufficient.
I agree, though, that the bigger picture is indeed what must be looked at. I don't claim to be a genius myself. I see it as it appears before my bleary eyes, if you will. We have four strikers. For me Rooney is clearly the best of them. Of the others, one is young and unproven, the two others look like pure shite at the moment. And the best of them, as I see it, never was a more clinical finisher than Wayne Rooney. So, it doesn't seem all that complicated to me.
I've often gone against the grain in the past with a lot of fellow Liverpool fans when it comes to SG. 25 years without a title win would suggest that something hasn't been quite right at our club during that period. I've felt that our problem has been that a succession of managers have tried to build the team around one or two key individuals. With Evans & Houllier it was McManaman, Fowler, & then Gerrard & Owen. Rafa had Gerrard, Carragher, & Torres. Far too often the other Liverpool players have looked in awe of their so-called peers, & have always looked to them to pull something out of the bag when things were not going to plan. I now look at our current squad, & I believe they all feel, & look, like a team. A combined unit, with a big part to play.
I imagine most United supporters dreaded the day when Bryan Robson's influence no longer affected things at Old Trafford. But it's funny (not ha,ha of course) how things turned out there isn't it ?
it's something of a paradox to think that removing a key cog from a machine will make that machine run better. But it's far more common than most of us realize.
Rooney has actually been our only consistently good outfield player this year. Himself and De Gea must be wondering what they are playing with. Rooney definitely is good enough to play in midfield. He's not going to become Yaya Toure or Xavi overnight.. will take time but he is good enough to get there eventually. Van Persie seems to be getting knocked a lot on here also but he has had absolutely no service all season and having to play with Falcao beside him has really messed up his game but he has made absolutely insane touches to create something out of nothing in the one or two chances each game he has been getting.
Mourinho was desperate to get Rooney. If Rooney was at Chelsea now you can be sure that he would be tearing teams apart and would be in the Chelsea team ahead of Oscar. Instead he has to watch the likes of Valencia, Falcao, Mata, Januzaj, Evans, Jones, Smalling lose possession or under-perform time and time again and that must be disheartening for him. Valencia has been playing well by his standards but still loses the ball more often than not.
Mourinho was desperate to get Rooney. If Rooney was at Chelsea now you can be sure that he would be tearing teams apart and would be in the Chelsea team ahead of Oscar. Instead he has to watch the likes of Valencia, Falcao, Mata, Januzaj, Evans, Jones, Smalling lose possession or under-perform time and time again and that must be disheartening for him. Valencia has been playing well by his standards but still loses the ball more often than not.
And your quote about Rooney wasn't?
Rooney is a player who's contributed to many PL winning campaigns and a CL win, yet he's 'a hindrance to us'?
Don't troll if you can't take a little trolling back
What did I say about Rooney?
When he doesn't play we are even worse. Falcoa and the two striker system as well as not playing Herrera are the main problems. Oh ya dodgy defending too.
What really fecks me off is that we spent seasons developing a young Rooney - who was once an explosive second striker who liked to turn and run at defenders, liked to play ambitious passes, liked to have long shots, did the unexpected, made defenders shit their fecking pants, and was generally phenomenal except for his finishing and lack of striking instict - and we hammered all that explosiveness out of him and worked on his finishing, his movement in the box, timing of runs in behind, his heading, his hold up play, positional discipline as the leading striker etc etc. And we succeeded!! Yeah he lost some of his dynamism but he retained enough, and it was a good trade off in exchange for a clinical 30+ goal a season front man. And then we go feck it all up and move him back to playing as a number 10, and now back into midfield, and it's a complete and utter waste. He's never going to be the top class number 10 he looked like becoming when he was a teenager, that ship has sailed, but we have a top class striker in Rooney and we're completely wasting him.
Rooney is an amazing talent - a brilliant player. It is not Rooney who has hindered United in the past few seasons, it is United who have hindered Rooney. Any inability to fit Rooney into a balanced and functional role in a balanced and functional team is not Rooney's fault, it's United's fault. We've moved him around from position to position, constantly changed what we are asking and expecting from him, all for the sake of accommodating lesser players and/or fixing problems in other parts of the team. And then how anyone can have the fecking nerve to place blame on this onto Rooney?
Even if we move him back to number 9 after this season it'll probably be too late. He'll have spent the years 27-29, which is the prime years for most footballers, playing out of position or in an unbalanced strike duo. And the years before that we had him teaming up in attack with players who simply weren't on the same level. It was annoying when he was having to play out of his best position to accommodate lesser forwards, but now he's playing in some Owen Hargreaves-like midfield engine role, I just can't take it any more.
Rooney is an amazing talent - a brilliant player. It is not Rooney who has hindered United in the past few seasons, it is United who have hindered Rooney. Any inability to fit Rooney into a balanced and functional role in a balanced and functional team is not Rooney's fault, it's United's fault. We've moved him around from position to position, constantly changed what we are asking and expecting from him, all for the sake of accommodating lesser players and/or fixing problems in other parts of the team. And then how anyone can have the fecking nerve to place blame on this onto Rooney?
Even if we move him back to number 9 after this season it'll probably be too late. He'll have spent the years 27-29, which is the prime years for most footballers, playing out of position or in an unbalanced strike duo. And the years before that we had him teaming up in attack with players who simply weren't on the same level. It was annoying when he was having to play out of his best position to accommodate lesser forwards, but now he's playing in some Owen Hargreaves-like midfield engine role, I just can't take it any more.
I 100% agree with you that at the moment Rooney is the best striker we have. But that has more to do with RvP and Falcao being in shit form, then Rooney being better then them.
And i also agree that Rooney can play as a second striker at a top club without any problems. But not at Man United. Because Man United simply does not have the top midfield other top clubs have. You can do this when you got Yaya Toure, not with a Michael Carrick, Blind or Fellaini. Herrera suits it decently, but you still need a second. In all fairness the only one at the club who fits that role best? Rooney. And i can fully understand LVG putting Rooney in that position, as i also honestly believe its the best position to put him in for the sake of the team.
IF
Our strikers stopped playing like complete nabs, because yes then Rooney simply is wasted there as hes the better striker atm. But when our strikers are in form, Rooney's spot is best on the midfield.
Lets be honest here, Rooney is passed his prime. It was when he was 24-26. 27 is a general age, not for everyone. Rooney's style just completely changed when he started to became a jack of all trades, instead of the hot head lethal striker.
In some ways, like Lampard and Gerrard for England, yes. We're crowbaring him into the team for the sake of playing nearly every top player we do have and it is causing issues within our side. If you want to call it being Stevie G in disguise, then you'll have to say the same for everybody except the back 4 and Blind and Carrick. Rooney isn't a hinderance. He is an asset to the team if used correctly, but we've failed to do that.
Regarding the point about Sir Alex deeming him expendable. I think it had more to do with Sir Alex wanting rid because of issues with Wayne personally rather than him thinking he was finished. I don't think he was too fond of him after the transfer request the first time. It is also a different Rooney to the one in Sir Alex's last season. Credit to Wayne, he's gotten himself in great shape and his fitness levels have greatly improved.
Regarding the point about Sir Alex deeming him expendable. I think it had more to do with Sir Alex wanting rid because of issues with Wayne personally rather than him thinking he was finished. I don't think he was too fond of him after the transfer request the first time. It is also a different Rooney to the one in Sir Alex's last season. Credit to Wayne, he's gotten himself in great shape and his fitness levels have greatly improved.
We'll never know will we how good Rooney could have been aged 27-29, because he had to spend those years being shunted around playing like an English Park Ji-Sung rather than playing in his best position. What we do know is that Rooney's end product has remained high despite us fecking him over. To be honest I think his finishing and awareness/movement in front of goal is better now than it's ever been. Had he played as the number 9 the past two and a half seasons in a 4231 he would have scored a ridiculous number of goals. He isn't any slower, weaker, less agile or in any way less physically able now than he was when he was 24-26 (if so it's negligible and he makes up for it with improvements elsewhere). The only thing that's changed is his head and what he's been asked to do on the pitch. Basically we've consistently fecked with him. Even during his golden period of 24-26 years we fecked him over by not investing the Ronaldo money and buying a top level player attacker for Rooney to play with/to produce for Rooney. After his then best goal scoring season aged 24 as a #9 we moved him back to a #10 to accommodate Hernandez, and the year after that Welbeck. Nevertheless Rooney managed to score a remarkable 27 PL goals in a distinctly average United side. His reward? We buy Van Persie and turn Rooney into a glorified watercarrier whose primary goal was to pass the ball to Antonio fecking Valencia at every opportunity and then run into the box to await a cross that would inevitably be blocked, or just wouldn't be delivered as Valencia would stand still, fake to cross, edge further towards the touchline, fake to cross, stand still, fake to cross, turn 270 degrees towards his own goal and pass it to whichever centre back was filling in at right back that day.
Exceptional post.
When a team is shit, the logical conclusion is not to blame one of the few players who actually play well. That's ridiculous reasoning. He can score, he can create, does the dirt work. He actually brings balance to a team that has spent the best part of the last decade playing with 2 CM's and not very mobile CM's at that. He's not the problem though I don't think playing him up top is a solution either but that's a different issue. What you're saying comes off as condescending crap. The kind of crap that Kagawa fans were coming out in force with until everyone realised he wasn't very good after all.
No, he's not. Rooney is a lot quicker than RVP and neither can consistently beat a defender so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Rooney is by some distance the superior finisher while RVP can hold the ball up a lot better better. "A lad of 2012"? Wtf are you on about. He scored 30 goals the last time he consistently played up top. Shot is not special? lacks height? When has his height ever held him back? He's one of the best headers of the ball we have for fecks sake. You're talking crap for the sake of talking crap.
Are you on a wum here? None of this makes sense. Are you saying he plays to deep or are you saying he plays too far forward? You're just blatantly contradicting yourself.
Complete nonsense. Which player have you been watching for the last 10 years? Rooney not a creative player? Doesn't pass forward? Horrible positioning? Can't pass?
This I can agree with. He can have good games as a CM but not consistent enough there.
Mata the creative player? Rooney from deeper position has created more than Mata has this season. Probably played more through balls to our strikers as well.
@Rowem Not sure if you're agreeing /disagreeing. But whatever it is , you basically are saying Rooney is fecked up and it's also OP' point anyway.
With the appropriate wingers and quality CMs 442 variants can work well. The problem is there aren't as many good box-to-box midfielders and versatile wingers. You will concede quite a bit of possession but with direct counter attacks you could out score them. The above team could work quite well but I don't think it gets the best out of Di Maria and RVP-Rooney strikeforce is as bad as Falcao-RVP. When I said Herrera at 10 I meant in a 442 diamond. With Rooney as a second striker the choice is really between him and Mata as they get in each others way.
Choice 1-
Back 4
----------------Blind------
Fellaini/Herrera-------Di Maria (LCM is his best position)
--------------Herrera/Januzaj
----------Rooney-------Falcao/Wilson
Choice 2-
Back 4
----------------Blind-----
---------Herrera------Di Maria
----------------Mata----------
--Wilson/Januzaj-----Falcao/RVP/Wilson
My choice at the moment would be for Choice 1. But as you can see it does limit the line-up with Rooney.
You're doing him a huge injustice. What about his amazing pass to RVP against Villa? That's just one example but there is more.
Rooney is becoming a hindrance only because we are all making him one. It's because he can do lots of things we judge him on how he does ALL of those things. But that's not fair.
Firstly, Rooney should be playing as a striker. And if our team was anywhere near as fluid as Arsenal for example, he would score goals. And he has done when he's played there in a functioning team.
Secondly, you talk about all of these things like through balls. How many of the best strikers are exactly brilliant at it? It's because Rooney is being asked to play deeper you're all of a sudden bringing this to the fore. Costa and Aguero are no better than Rooney at playing in a striker for example. And if you start comparing him to the next level of strikers below, he's much better. But because rooney plays deeper you add it into his analysis and make more of it.
Rooney is a hindrance in so far as he is versatile and so managers are tempted to move him around. If managers did their jobs and played him as a striker where he should be played he would be a much better player. He shouldn't be in midfield and he shouldn't be at 10 really. He should be our striker.
You talk about Rooney individually being good but not good for the team. Then you go on and compare his individual attributes against another players individual attributes.
I don't want to write an essay but if you're saying Rooney is the problem for our style of play you're wrong.
Nope. Rooney is a good player and has won things
Look at how far you had to go for that.. Watch Aguero his goals, amazing runs vs Bayern, even recently vs Stoke, such moments of sheer brilliance comes very odd for him. Rooney olays as a 10/9.5, so being able to set people 1 vs 1 should bw something he should be capable of. Benzema/Ibra/Suarez/Aguero/Lewa are capable of doing that, why does he do it so scarcely?
Not sure if I'm getting you right, but atm, Rooney isnt even close to being as good as Costa/Aguero as a striker at the moment.
Not sure if I'm getting you right, but atm, Rooney isnt even close to being as good as Costa/Aguero as a striker at the moment.
Some of his passes are fairly similar to Gerrard's angel passes he has opted to play in the latter part of his career.
Pretty sure we wouldn't be in the position to win it without him either.
I wanted rid of him before Moyes joined, when Fergie made it abundantly clear that he felt the time was right to move Rooney on. And I think if he hadn't retired, he'd have done just that. Moyes, however, wanted to make a statement so he signed Rooney up to a massive new long-term contract and now we're stuck with him.
It was very, very rare for Fergie to move a player on before his time. Other than in cases where the player themselves wanted to leave (which is an entirely different thing), the players Fergie decided to move on never achieved the same heights. Stam is the only example I can think of, and even that wasn't Fergie thinking he was past it - it was a knee-jerk response to something Stam wrote in his book.
So, yeh, I wish we'd sold Rooney two years ago. But we didn't, and we won't. He's here to stay, and we'll just have to get used to him stinking the place up (but by now, we already are).
It was very, very rare for Fergie to move a player on before his time. Other than in cases where the player themselves wanted to leave (which is an entirely different thing), the players Fergie decided to move on never achieved the same heights. Stam is the only example I can think of, and even that wasn't Fergie thinking he was past it - it was a knee-jerk response to something Stam wrote in his book.
So, yeh, I wish we'd sold Rooney two years ago. But we didn't, and we won't. He's here to stay, and we'll just have to get used to him stinking the place up (but by now, we already are).
Not really, it's mostly just a shit rant.
There's a reason Fergie kept moving Rooney around to accomodate other players - because they were better than him, and he didn't excel in any particular position. Claiming it was a travesty to buy Van Persie and take the striking role away from Rooney is absolutely hilarious. RvP tore up the league and almost single-handedly won us the title.
Saying that Rooney's troubles are our fault and we've messed the poor lad around and wasted his talent like he's Lionel-fecking-Messi is as mind-boggling as it is stupid. Rooney, I guess by virtue of being English, has a legion of fanboys on here who think he's Pele Mk II but we're holding him back.
Well guess what, three managers in a row now have disagreed with you, and one of them was right up there with the greatest of all time.
Seems a few of the folk getting on van Persie's back are the ones who think we shouldn't have signed him in the first place.
Or maybe Rooney is a very good player, a very good striker who scores 20-something goals per season playing upfront, maybe he is not as talented as RVP or Messi but, he has more gas in the tank than the Dutch and we "sacrificed" a striker who had more to give us, for an other one who was able to only transform us for one little season.
In reality your post is closer to a shit rant, if we listen to you Rooney has never been a great player and has never scored a lot of goals for us.
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Fergie wanted to get rid of him? Guess so, by saying that Rooney wants out.
By saying Rooney wanted out he was opening the door and trying to force a move. Ronaldo said he wanted out, Fergie said nothing publically. RvN said he wanted out numerous times. Again, Fergie said nothing publically.
Rooney's development was really puzzling from us. We had a potentially great player in him and we fecked around with his development by curbing his rawness and made him into a player that never really reached the heights everyone thought he could and despite all this, he's still pretty much a top 10 striker at his peak.
I honestly thought he would be a multiple world player of the year type of player when he first came to us.
I honestly thought he would be a multiple world player of the year type of player when he first came to us.
Yep
In truth I'm neither agreeing or disagreeing because I didn't read the OP. Christ man, I'm THE Rowem. I don't need to waste my time reading other people's opinions. I enter threads with snappy titles, glance at the OP, scroll down through the thread in search of posts with sexy formation diagrams in, post my pearls of wisdom and depart again. The Great Rowe Fecking M doesn't support or oppose anyone else's viewpoints, I create my own and gift them to the undeserving masses to consume. The only thing that confuses me is why I don't have hoards of adoring and loyal fans, but I don't crave adoration and e-status so it's no bother.
What im pointing out is that while rooney is a fantastic player on its own in 442 where the second striker role is basically a one man army if capable. But 442 in general is a bad system due its midfield problems nowadays (altough with the right players and playstyle it can still ofc dominate).
But in a 433 variant you have dedicated spots and you want specialists not jack lf all trades master of none.
And for the sake of the team let the best suited players play in the position available. Here rooney will lose against everyone in the team bar CM.
So if you are going to give rooney a spot, without hindering the team its the CM spot. Van Gaal has it right. The rest of the team just doesnt live up to their capability to make it a succes.
The majority of our forwards are just horribly out of form. You can play 1-1-9 atm and still not score.
But we're not playing 433 variant, we're playing a 442 variant and the team is crying out for a traditional second striker rather than Falcao and Van Persie both playing.
Besides, you underrate Rooney as a number 9. Van Persie of two years ago edged him (what with being probably THE best number 9 in the world at the time) but what we've seen the past two seasons, Rooney would be doing far better. Even though he's not your traditional 9 there's not a lot of players I would choose ahead of Rooney for that role.
Totally agree. Rooney's got 8 PL goals this season to RvP's 10 and Falcao's 4 despite being stuck in CM for much of his time!
He'd be on around 15-20 if he'd played the entire season as a CF like these two have.