Is Rooney our 'Stevie G' in disguise?

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
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Now the majority of the Caf seem to be in agreement that deploying Rooney in midfield is one of numerous reasons behind our midfield being as dire as it is. That said, many also claim that Rooney is nevertheless the solution to our attacking woes too and that playing him up top as well as playing a good midfield behind him with proper midfielders will lead us to the promised land, or make us a side worth watching again.

The discussion I want to put forward is this... Fergie wanted rid of him. Fergie wanted to move on from the Rooney era and was actively seeking new strikers. He thought Rooney had peaked and had reached that stage where his ego was bigger than his actual performance output. He was the 'big man' in reputation only and not in terms of performances on the pitch. Did Fergie see him as a potential hindrance to the side's progression going forwards?

Rooney has worked his bollocks off this season, playing out of position but I still feel that if I am being brutally honest, even as a striker... he isn't Aguero/Costa in terms of performance level. He could still bang in a large number of goals, I do not doubt that but I feel that having him in the side affects the style of play of the entire side... he is such a dominant personality, he affects the fluidity we are looking to seek on the ball. He's a magnet for the ball but the problem is, the more he sees of it, the slower and the more predictable our play becomes. Contrast this with Aguero or Costa, they blend in seamlessly to any formation/type of game, whereas Rooney inevitably has to be catered to and he can have absolutely awful games where he just stinks up the place, yet he'll nab a goal and he disguises his poor performance.

The last world cup was the first time I lost a little love for Rooney as a player. I could see he was almost like an albatross around the teams neck, just like Lampard/Gerrard used to be. You had young lively technicians in Sturridge/Sterling/Danny and then as soon as the ball got to Rooney it slowed down, the tempo dropped. His sulky performance against Italy cost us the game and he manipulated the situation to ensure he played as a #10 in the next games and we never hit the heights of that first game, yet he managed to get a goal in the end... disguising the fact he was horrendous and the main reason behind the malfunctioning of our attack.

The reason I compare him to 'Stevie Me' is that I see a lot of potential in this Liverpool side, but the power Gerrard wields over selection by his mere existence at the club ensures that the team can't escape from his shackles. The team is trying to break free but he still features in the main games and he is their worst player time and time again. He is a hindrance. In fact one could argue, we are a team full of Gerrards... a lot of big names who demand to be selected based on reputation but are shadows of what they once were or are just tactical misfits.

Rooney is a more dangerous hindrance because he can still contribute in terms of goals and assists, he gives the impression that he is a vital component of any team. I would argue that like Gerrard, like Ruud of 2006 for example, moving Rooney up front might be an improvement on RVP/Falcao and he would score a fair few but in the long run, that decision will itself present a problem in the not too distance future. As all our competitors stockpile on livewire 9's who can dribble, shoot off either foot etc, we'll be stuck with the fading flame of Rooney.

Thoughts?
 
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In a way he is yeah. I know lot's of people want to see him start up front but he and RVP where just as bad as a partnership as any other combination this season. Like RVP/Falcao he doesn't have pace or the ability to beat a player. Our midfield is dire with him but he can't play as a lone striker since he seemingly can't help himself from dropping deep into the 10 positions and doesn't have the speed/skill for that role anymore.
 
Are Aguero and Costa better strikers than Rooney? Yeah, of that there's little doubt.

But I'm not sure it's as black and white as that. Rooney's our captain, and deservedly so in my opinion. He's a leader and an excellent all-round football player. He's had his ups and downs in midfield, but it's probably a testament to him that, for the most part, we've gotten away with having him there.

What to do with Rooney? Well play him as a striker, because he can't be any worse than Falcao or van Persie this season. Rooney can still be a thirty-odd goal a season striker, which is as good an output as you'd get from Aguero or Costa. He has different attributes to either and he's an extremely important player for us.
 
Raul would have been a better comparison, and I think that Rooney upfront is not an hindrance to us, he is in midfield because he is not a midfielder, he is not a 10, he is a striker, nothing more.
 
I don't think that Rooney is a hindrance to us. It is more Van Persie and Falcao.

I do not disagree with that, my concern is that everyone seems to be in total agreement that they're past their best and even LVG is likely to get shot of them at the end of the season. The worry is that he sees Rooney as this total footballer that the team needs to be built around..
 
I just don't get the uncomfortable nature some people seem to have concerning Rooney. He is 3rd in our all time list of goalscorers and on course to top that list. If you still have doubts about his commitment regarding that particular season when he flirted with other teams then so be it, you can't deny that he has been a great asset to us and continues to be so. Once he starts to play in the number 10 position again, which will be next season as Falcao isn't getting signed, RVP is in his final season(s) then he will fire the goals in. One or two more signings for CM and we will all be singing his praises. He is doing a decent job if maybe a little unusual for us in midfield in this moment as we lack a little something there at this moment in time with our current system, that shouldn't go against him though.
 
I don't think Rooney is the issue, at the end of the season we need to move on RVP & Falcao, move Rooney to a striker role , and bring in another proven striker with guile and pace.
 
I don't think Rooney is the issue, at the end of the season we need to move on RVP & Falcao, move Rooney to a striker role , and bring in another proven striker with guile and pace.

So do we go 4-4-2, do we drop Rooney to the bench.. is Rooney still going to be our number 10? I think the guy is a problem more than a solution beyond this season.
 
So do we go 4-4-2, do we drop Rooney to the bench.. is Rooney still going to be our number 10? I think the guy is a problem more than a solution beyond this season.

Play him in his position (striker), where he is easily in a top 15.
 
He's an alright player with one of the best workrates in world football, one of the most composed finishing and relative good link up play for a striker, other than that, I dont think he's of world class. He only has pace when he tracks back, never beats a defender , never gives a beautiful trough ball for a player to go 1 vs 1, he scores some screamers admittedly, but other than that I dont see him having moments of sheer brilliance similar to let say Aguero or Sanchez this season, cant create something out of nothing. He's a good player to have, and definitely good enough to play at the highest level, but I'm quite worried that he's supposed to be our best player, the player who takes the lead when it's not going well.
He cant do much about his performances in midfiels, but it wasnt hosanna everytime up front either. So at some point, his obligatory place in the team and his importance, might be a hindrance.
 
This thread is a bit premature for the caftards. I mean, the less Rooney plays as a striker, the better striker he becomes in the eyes of many fans. Therefore, they are now convinced that Rooney will improve our attack if played up front. Personally, I think he deserves to get a chance as a striker in order to show whether he can improve us. He is distinctly average in midfield and this experiment has to stop. However, the view that he may be a hindrance to the development of this team along the other aging big stars is not ludicrous. He is still a very good player but not a player to build a new team around. Let us first see whether LVG will give him a new role because we shouldn't be too critical about his performances as a midfielder.
 
Quick answer - No he won't be in midfield next season.


Long answer - Well I can't be arsed, I'm already depressed about being Billy feckin No Mates on a Friday night.
 
No. He isn't regarded by anyone at United - players, fans or management -as Stevie G was/is at Pool.

It's not comparable at all.
 
The media are finally starting to realise Rooney in midfield is one of the biggest wastes of recent times.

The idea we're just doing this for a cheeky 1/2 to 3/4 of a season and then next year he'll suddenly be up front again seems massively unlikely.

If next year we're still "unbalanced" after a full summer window, only Van Gaal can take the blame for that

Stevie G is 6 years older than Rooney. It's way too early for Rooney to be pissing about as a stroller playing balls around. He's not particularly good at it for one.
 
I'd say its more RVP and Falcao. Rooney can still actually play more than competently upfront/as a second striker.
 
He's not hindrance himself - it's LvG that's made him one.
 
Well I need to see him played as a striker, I've forgotten what it feels like.
 
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I can see what you mean. Rooney is nowhere near as big a hero here as Gerrard is in Liverpool but I think he is in the team by virtue of being club captain now, rather like Gerrard has been recently.

I wanted us to sell him a couple of years ago when we could have got a good price. He was clearly in decline then.
 
In disguise? lmao

A blind man can see it.

See what?

He's one of our best players? Yes, clearly.

The top earner? Ditto.

Undroppable? Er...yes. Seems to be. But unlike Stevie, that isn't unreasonable (see the first point). Rooney IS one of our best if not our best player and the fact that he's being played out of position (everyone and his granny isn't always right, but they're sure as feck right when they claim Rooney is better as a striker than as a central midfielder) is down to our manager, not down to Rooney.

What else does the blind man see? That our manager will keep playing him in midfield contrary to all reason until we all go to hell? That won't happen. Either Rooney will - contrary to what I personally think - become a midfielder worthy of the name for a top notch United side. Or LVG will get kicked out along with his Schweinsteigerin' ways.

Those are the horrible outcomes. The less horrible ones are these: A) Rooney will be used as a striker, which is common bloody sense. B) Rooney will piss off and thus remove himself from the equation.

EDIT The first one ain't horrible, I realize that. You should all applaud me for catching this flaw in my...argument or whateverthefeckitis.
 
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No. Gerrard isn't a hindrance to us.

His influence diminishes game by game though. It's getting to the point - if we're not already there - where he's nothing but a bit-part player.

The OP does have a good point. For all the great things Gerrard has done for Liverpool Football Club, I think we'll become a better team without him under Brendan Rodgers.
 
He's still a vital player for us and can perform well without the team needing to be built around him. We would have been considerably worse off, in this and last season without him.

However, I do understand what the OP is getting at. He does seem to have become more of a 'stats' type of a player and not an influential player throughout the entire game imo. Not a bad thing as such and he's a really productive player but there have been quite a few games in recent years, where a goal/assist has masked a truly abysmal performance. I'd rather have the younger and more influential but less productive Rooney tbh. Controversial opinion and one that's probably heavily influenced by nostalgia but I really did prefer that version.
 
Well maybe he aint Augero but give me somebody better before you start wanting rid of him! Because I'd love another couple of Wayne Rooney's in the team.
 
See what?

He's one of our best players? Yes, clearly.

The top earner? Ditto.

Undroppable? Er...yes. Seems to be. But unlike Stevie, that isn't unreasonable (see the first point). Rooney IS one of our best if not our best player and the fact that he's being played out of position (everyone and his granny isn't always right, but they're sure as feck right when they claim Rooney is better as a striker than as a central midfielder) is down to our manager, not down to Rooney.

What else does the blind man see? That our manager will keep playing him in midfield contrary to all reason until we all go to hell? That won't happen. Either Rooney will - contrary to what I personally think - become a midfielder worthy of the name for a top notch United side. Or LVG will get kicked out along with his Schweinsteigerin' ways.

Those are the horrible outcomes. The less horrible ones are these: A) Rooney will be used as a striker, which is common bloody sense. B) Rooney will piss off and thus remove himself from the equation.

EDIT The first one ain't horrible, I realize that. You should all applaud me for catching this flaw in my...argument or whateverthefeckitis.

See thats the problem with the majority of fans. You don't see rooney as a problem, because you only judge Rooney on his own individual performance, and are completely oblivious to the other problems he brings.

So what if hes one of our best players individually? Its the total picture you need to see.

Rooney as a striker: Rooney isn't the lad of 2012 anymore. His play style is completely different. Him as a sole striker? He cannot beat his defender, his shot isn't all that special, he lacks height and speed compared to a "optimal" striker. RvP has that technique, height, shot. In any scenario when both in form, RvP is the far superior lone striker to Rooney.

Rooney as a shadow striker: No problem lets put Rooney as a shadow striker. Here the biggest problem starts. Rooney plays fantastic in this role. But he nearly hugs the other striker creating minimal space. He positions his self so deep that there is a giant gap between midfield and offense. Which gives us the oh so fun 2 man midfield drama where nothing is created and forces us to have 2 wide defensive minded wingers.

Rooney as a 10: Has absolutely horrible positioning for a 10, lacks technique, passing and creates next to 0 for his teammates. And worst of all, he doesn't pass forward, but to the wingers (with a huge

Rooney as a CM: Great work rate, good enough passing, good enough vision, still good rushing forward and his play in general is forward minded. But still he loses so much possession in vulnerable places.

So yeah in every position we either have a better suited player for THE TEAM or suiting the play style. Personally if i had to put Rooney on the paper it would be in a 433 with him as false 9, but we simply lack the offensive threat from our wingers to make this work.

Rooney again, is a fantastic player, has great individual performances and gets the job done. But for the team, other players are just better suited. Our team is far more stable with a 3 man midfield, and with Rooney in an offensive position we lack creativity compared to Mata. Any system which involves Rooney as a striker alongside of someone forces a 2 man midfield and thats just a modern day nightmare.
 
Rooney's not great in midfield, but I personally don't think he's the reason to us being so poor of late. I think if we were to see Herrera for Rooney, with the same tactics and personnel we've been using of late, i.e. midfielders being asked to play too high up, passing too safe, very little movement, etc, there wouldn't be much of a difference. I mean, we looked pretty poor against Cambridge, only creating two decent chances all game, and Rooney didn't play.

If we're going to play a 442 diamond, it should be a narrow like we played earlier on in the season, as opposed to a wide one. When we did play a narrow one, players were closer to each other, passing was sharper, better movement off the ball. It was a lot better. We were even able to get away with Falcao and Van Persie up top, because our build up was so patient and precise that our full backs could get far forward and delivery crosses in to the forwards.
 
Rooney as a shadow striker: No problem lets put Rooney as a shadow striker. Here the biggest problem starts. Rooney plays fantastic in this role. But he nearly hugs the other striker creating minimal space. He positions his self so deep that there is a giant gap between midfield and offense. Which gives us the oh so fun 2 man midfield drama where nothing is created and forces us to have 2 wide defensive minded wingers.

If he's played with a proper 9 I can see him working well as you rightly point out he drops deep. With Herrera at 10 or as an 8 in effectively a 4-2-2 (Di Maria and Januzaj)-2 the gap between the midfield and forwards won't be that much of a problem. TBH Rooney as a shadow striker is the only position he should be playing.