I wonder if the back injury resulted in some nerve damage or neuropathy. He would have to be relearning his touch, which he’d been working on for 20 years. Combine that with naturally slowing down, and we’re seeing Rashford’s ghost.
Is Rashford better than the likes of Saint Maximin?
- Thread starter pocco
- Start date
Honestly, I've never heard of it.
ASM would be terrible for us. He's a player who fits Newcastle perfectly, because space is given for him to get in behind and to get one on one with a full back. Against two banks of 4, he'd be anonymous I think.
I do like him as a player, but I think he's one of those who fits a lower-mid table team perfectly.
But my god, yes, he's better than Rashford.
I do like him as a player, but I think he's one of those who fits a lower-mid table team perfectly.
But my god, yes, he's better than Rashford.
Oh absolutely I'd have Saint Maximin over Rashford in a flash tbh - at least on Rashfords 2 year form. The reason is that even if he does give it away sometimes he IS entertaining, and also he CAN and DOES produce quality end product creating goals. It doesn't happen every time - if it did he'd be one of the best players in the world but he's 25 now and probably isn't going to markedly change his spots at this time in his career.
This is a fair assessment of ASM I think.
Issue here is trajectories. Saint Maximin is getting better, so even his level when this thread was made is different to what he is now. By contrast, Rashford is declining to the point more are of the belief that he’s done.
For the last year it hasn’t been a contest as to who is the more useful player and that gap might well widen at the current rate they’re going in their respective directions.
For the last year it hasn’t been a contest as to who is the more useful player and that gap might well widen at the current rate they’re going in their respective directions.
I think Rashford would look better in a counter attacking side. He doesn't have the technical ability to play in a more possession orientated side. It would be interesting to see if ASM could perform as well in a more possession orientated side where he would have less space to dribble in. Put it this way ASM would look worse than he does now at Utd, but Rashford would look better at Newcastle. That said my money is ASM being the better player.
2 different players. When on form Rashford has better end product, ASM is a better dribbler. 2 different style of wingers.
PL stats
19/20
ASM - 26 apps, 3 goals, 4 assists
Rashford - 31 apps, 17 goals, 7 assists
20/21
ASM - 25 apps, 3 goals, 4 assists
Rashford - 37 apps, 11 goals, 9 assists
21/22
ASM - 35 apps, 5 goals, 5 assists
Rashford - 25 apps, 4 goals, 2 assists
Even in dire form last season, Rashford got only one goal less and slightly less assists than ASM and out performed him in the seasons before.
19/20
ASM - 26 apps, 3 goals, 4 assists
Rashford - 31 apps, 17 goals, 7 assists
20/21
ASM - 25 apps, 3 goals, 4 assists
Rashford - 37 apps, 11 goals, 9 assists
21/22
ASM - 35 apps, 5 goals, 5 assists
Rashford - 25 apps, 4 goals, 2 assists
Even in dire form last season, Rashford got only one goal less and slightly less assists than ASM and out performed him in the seasons before.
Think we should do this for the full team tbh, Is Joelinton better than Bruno, is Pope better than De Gea. We could even take players from teams on our level is Bowen better than Sancho?
It depends. It's an argument that holds truth, but, given Rashford's current (or not so current) form, it needs a deeper assessment (i'm writing this knowing full-well that, if we opt for a counter-attacking style tonight and he scores, some will be out for blood in this thread).
Good possession-based sides don't usually go after players like Allan Saint-Maximin. Or, to put it better, they usually perceive them as stop-gap solutions to systematic issues that can't be fixed overnight. Adama Traore's brief stint at Barcelona can serve as an example: A team that seemed rudderless on the pitch and lacking in quality in many areas, and a new manager with a huge rebuilding job at hand. Too many holes to patch up in one go. What Traore could give them was an outlet in the build-up whenever they weren't able to short-pass their way farther up the field, plus an injection of pace in the final third that could lead to a quick and easy cross/cut-back pass in the box. That's probably how ASM could find himself in a possession team.
Given that, i don't think he would look worse in this United side because, however you want to look at it, we are a team that wants to make the transition from a counter-attacking side to a more possession-based one. The problem is that we simply suck at it at the moment. In that sense, and if Ronaldo stays, (someone like) Saint-Maximin would benefit us more in the short-term. Better dribbler, better ball-carrier, not so easily dispossessed. To say it plainly, he could prove to be more useful in the middle third, where we struggle to move the ball vertically, and in the attacking third up until the edge of the box, where his ability to draw defenders can generate pockets of space we aren't able to create via passing at the moment. Not a long-term solution, but one that could make the transition smoother (or not so hurtful as it seems nowadays).
Rashford, or rather the current version of him, could make Newcastle look more threatening on the pitch. But i don't think he would do it immediately. Part of it is because i don't think he would displace ASM in their line-up. If anything, he would thrive lurking at the far post while ASM does his thing, waiting for the cross or the switch-ball to attack the space. Rashford would eventually replace Almiron in their starting-xi, but in the near future. Right now, they need the Paraguayan's energy levels, his defensive contribution and his movement around the box. When Newcastle's set-up improves and becomes more balanced, then they will be able to replace hard-work with end product in one (or more) position on the pitch.
So, as you argue, ASM seems to be the better or the more useful player right now. The irony in this is that, many things that ASM does on the pitch for his team, Rashford has done them better at the start of his career. He could run with the ball through the lines, he could find the angle for a finish in the box while running at defenders, he could use his weaker foot (to an extent), he could get past people, and he could come up with the goods on both sides of the pitch. But for some reason - injury, mental issues, fame... take your pick - he hasn't been performing well for quite a while. The worst thing, what's coming out from his camp in the form of leaks to the press, serves as an indication that he has "convinced" himself he should be nothing more than a striker who doesn't want to play centrally. That he doesn't "need" to contribute anything else. Just like Ronaldo at RM, he should be on the pitch to score the goals the rest of the team will create for him. The problem is that United, so early in ETH's tenure, could use more heavy lifting than entitlement/pushing a player to be something he can't any more on the pitch. And when you give the manager not one, but two players who contribute nothing more than goals (Ronnie, the second one), you're not making his job any easier.
Coming back to the bolded part, the real question isn't really how much space does he need to operate into. Whatever football you want to play, a good goalscorer who times his runs in-behind to perfection is always needed. But when you're playing for the top dogs, the pockets of space are always hard to be created. Nevertheless, the best teams know how to generate them. Just like De Bruyne saw an impossible pass to Bernardo yesterday. From that point, it's about vision and execution. Not a matter of space, but a matter of time. To see the opportunity and grab it. How much time does he need? During his prime in Madrid, Ronaldo was the best the game has ever seen in that particular department. How good is Rashford in that aspect of his game? Answer this and you'll know if he has a future as a top player in a top team. If you think "not good enough", Saint-Maximin is already the better one of two players with a rather low ceiling. If you're still on the fence, you'll probably reserve judgement for a couple more years.
Stats are meaningless without context. The most obvious flaw to a straight comparison is the league positions of the two teams. It’s a team sport after all and Newcastle have sucked for a long time. In a bad team a winger isn’t going to have a good time.
Ah right, so we can't use stats to back up arguments unless they suit the narrative we want them to. So what else shall we use as a comparison? How often people run?
It goes both ways, in a team like Newcastle they play almost always on the counter and ASM is afforded almost complete freedom the goals should be more distributed towards him than anyone else in their team. Rashford, on the other hand, is not afforded that complete luxury and also in a team which had Cavani, Martial, Greenwood and Bruno all scoring too the attacking threat isn't all focussed on him which means he should get a lower share of the team goals than Saint Maximan.
He definitely could have, a bit similar to Tiger Woods & how his body responded to putting on too much muscle.
Huh? apposed to the power house that's United atm
you could change out Newcastle for Manchester United and that statement wouldn't be any less apt.Fair enough
You think I started this thread yesterday? I asked the question in December 21 when it was frustrating me how people still banged on about Rashford like some sort of superstar. I felt it was a good way of highlighting how he was giving us absolutely nothing. I'd known for ages that Rashford was a problem, way before this thread.
He is declining rapidly,sell him while we still can get money for him.
He lacks technical ability, passing ability and football intelligence to be able to play ETH football.
He is best in a counter attacking team.
He lacks technical ability, passing ability and football intelligence to be able to play ETH football.
He is best in a counter attacking team.
What happened is we ruined him, and now he’s lost all of that agility seen in that vid. Those responsible for playing him crocked have a lot to answer for.
Edit: yeh I called it. Look who made the most sprint's all of a sudden out of nowhere against Liverpool. Rashford. So he was capable the entire time. He just had no effort like explained below for the majority of the last year and a half. If he wants to stay, he needs to put that level of effort in every game
We'll have to agree to disagree there Bebestation. I understand your pov but I don't agree with it.
Injuries effect the ability to function ie: you try a step over, but your legs and body can't successfully pull it off any longer. The thought to try was there, the ability to perform wasn't
Point being, It doesn't effect the ability to try to function.
It's not a case of him being poor at defending or trying to defend and track back. He doesn't put any effort into attacking either. Making a run behind the defence isn't asking for explosive pace, Juan Mata used to make runs behind and we all know he was slow in acceleration and velocity. Rashford just needs to make runs and time it. He doesn't even attempt it.
That's not a lack of 'skill' or anything to do with acceleration, explosive movement, quick feet, dribbling or technical ability per se. It's a lack of effort to even put in a shift. It's either that or he's brain-dead and doesn't understand what is required of a winger and I think that isnt the case here.
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Every time St Maximin touches the ball, even if he fails, he puts the fear of god into you. He is the type of player even the top, top, top defenders hate playing against. Why? If he isolates you, you know you're dead.
Ah yeah, we had two kids in our team who used to do the same thing: Ronaldo and Rooney. He is a maverick, and United is Maverick central, at least, it used to be. Some of you lot have forgotten that.
They’re both capable of good games but also atrocious games. The difference between them so far is that Rashford has shown he is capable of putting in the stats of a top player, for all that ASM has done in terms of looking good his stats are still pretty poor. He is on an upwards trajectory however in terms of personal development and the team so that may change.
People were saying the same things about Adama Traore when he had a good game here and there but never had any consistency.
He has gone down the Alli route. No one is blaming Spurs for ruining him.
We ruined feck all. The guy ruined himself.
We fecked his back. He is a shadow of the pre-injury player and that’s on whoever allowed that to happen. His head has gone after the fact, I reckon.
How is he training all week?
Not sure what that means. But he isn’t the same player he was and cannot move at all like he used to.
it means he wouldnt be selected to play if he wasnt physically able all week
There's all sorts of theories and reasons why Rashford has declined so badly, injuries being a main theme which I don't disagree with. However I just don't see him looking hungry anymore. His enthusiasm for the game seems to have gone completely. He's no longer an agile, willing runner and instead has become an arrogant player who is always on the fringes.
I don't think Rashford has ever been technically that great and his decision making has always been quite poor but he got an easy ride because his enthusiasm and energy got won a lot of hearts and in truth that determination helped him to get into positions to score goals. He just doesn't have that now. It's a real shame.
ASM impressed me massively yesterday but I'm not convinced he'd be able to play the way he does for Newcastle for us so I don't think we'd see the best of him here.
I don't think Rashford has ever been technically that great and his decision making has always been quite poor but he got an easy ride because his enthusiasm and energy got won a lot of hearts and in truth that determination helped him to get into positions to score goals. He just doesn't have that now. It's a real shame.
ASM impressed me massively yesterday but I'm not convinced he'd be able to play the way he does for Newcastle for us so I don't think we'd see the best of him here.
No, it doesn’t. In the slightest.
Players come back from serious injuries completely altered all the time.
There is also dribble stats and key pass stats that are worthy to look at for WF, if we want to look at full picture.
19/20
ASM - 4.7 dribble, 1.7 key pass
Rashford - 1.9 dribble, 1.1 key pass
20/21
ASM - 3.8 dribble, 1.8 key pass
Rashford - 2.2 dribble, 1.2 key pass
21/22
ASM - 4.3 dribble, 1.4 key pass
Rashford - 0.9 dribble, 0.4 key pass
Some huge difference in terms of overall performance on the pitch as in winger role.
it really is sad tbh I just don’t think he can move like he did in that video anymore
erm, yes it does. unless he has Rasforditis where his physical ailments only appear on matchday. Unless you are saying he can only perform 75% all week in training and still commands a starting slot
I actually have no idea what tangent you’ve taken this off on. He is not the same player he was and a fecked back has robbed him of his agility.
yes you do, and you have no idea of his physical medical condition
Pointless statistics goals/assists and clean sheets win games, Marcus and ASM are about the same age and Marcus has outperformed him in both game-winning stats to this point, in fact, Rashford has scored so many more goals, that even if he never scores again there is a high probability ASM will still never reach his goal tally.
No, he moves like Robocop now, by choice. Just so happened to opt to be that way when he came back from said injury.
ASM playing with better finishers would increase his assists. He does seem to make the key passes for it.
ASM also requires extra attention from the opponent or even double marking which frees up space for other players to have an easier time to score or assist. However that wont show up in stats. Antony has bad stats but also will require extra attention from opponents.
If Newcastle improves over the years the comparison will become a bit more fair although ASM might never really become a fantastic goalscorer. He is a fantastic player though. Fun to watch too. If he played on the right i would prefer him over Antony.
so you recognise he is crap then. well done