Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

SungSam7 said:
A bad year out of 15, need i remind you he didn't come close once to bringing the Champions League to Bayern.

He took how many years to get the Champions League for City. All the money spent at 2 clubs in Europe and only 1 Champions league to show for it.

Like why aren't we calling Zidane a GOAT? He won how many European and domestic titles in how many years?
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He made the CL semi in all 3 seasons he spent at Bayern

It took how many seasons for Ferguson to win 2 CL titles?

Zidane is not called because he has coached for a total of like 5 seasons
 
kaiser1 said:
He made the CL semi in all 3 seasons he spent at Bayern

It took how many seasons for Ferguson to win 2 CL titles?

Zidane is not called because he has coached for a total of like 5 seasons
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Jesus fair play to him. He brought them to semis, so basically he needed to buy a bit of Viagra to get Bayern over the line so really?

The Premier league wasn't as strong as it was when he was United at one stage, they were banned from Europe, the quality was lagging behind and it wasn't uncommon to see English players move abroad. It wasn't until the formation of the Premier League did clubs get that financial boost to get back among the elite in Europe.

So my argument still stands. If Zidane accomplished more in Europe in less time that Pep, what does that make Pep?
 
kaiser1 said:
He made the CL semi in all 3 seasons he spent at Bayern

It took how many seasons for Ferguson to win 2 CL titles?

Zidane is not called because he has coached for a total of like 5 seasons
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You might want to read up on at the state of the club Fergie inherited compared to the treble winning Bayern squad that Pep inherited.

Also, United were severely hamstrung by the UEFA '3 foreigner' rule for several years.
 
SungSam7 said:
A bad year out of 15, need i remind you he didn't come close once to bringing the Champions League to Bayern.

He took how many years to get the Champions League for City. All the money spent at 2 clubs in Europe and only 1 Champions league to show for it.

Like why aren't we calling Zidane a GOAT? He won how many European and domestic titles in how many years?
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Because Zidane has won 2 leagues and 0 domestic cups compared to 12 leagues and 6 cups (10 if you count League Cups?)
SungSam7 said:
A bad year out of 15, need i remind you he didn't come close once to bringing the Champions League to Bayern.

He took how many years to get the Champions League for City. All the money spent at 2 clubs in Europe and only 1 Champions league to show for it.

Like why aren't we calling Zidane a GOAT? He won how many European and domestic titles in how many years?
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'Didn't come close'... one of the most unlucky defeats in a semi-final there's ever been wasn't close to winning a Champions League? Muller missed a penalty, 34 shots on goal, Oblak was man of the match and only lost on away goals?
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
You might want to read up on at the state of the club Fergie inherited compared to the treble winning Bayern squad that Pep inherited.

Also, United were severely hamstrung by the UEFA '3 foreigner' rule for several years.
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By mid 90s Man Utd was already an elite club in Europe. Ferguson had unrestricted power there unlike Pep at Bayern where he had to work within the strict Bayern framework of buying mostly German or Bundesliga based players

The 2nd excuse is funny. Weren't all clubs in Europe subjected to the same rule? Or was it just United?
This will be like a club claiming they had to play with 3 subs vs 5 subs now, play in the era of backpasses to keepers, no offside
 
kaiser1 said:
By mid 90s Man Utd was already an elite club in Europe. Ferguson had unrestricted power there unlike Pep at Bayern where he had to work within the strict Bayern framework of buying mostly German or Bundesliga based players

The 2nd excuse is somehow? Weren't all clubs in Europe subjected to the same rule? This will be like claiming you had to play with 3 subs vs 5 subs now
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He joined in 86. Hence why the previous poster mentioned the mess he “inherited”.

Pep inherited the CL champions?
 
kaiser1 said:
By mid 90s Man Utd was already an elite club in Europe. Ferguson had unrestricted power there unlike Pep at Bayern where he had to work within the strict Bayern framework of buying mostly German or Bundesliga based players

The 2nd excuse is funny. Weren't all clubs in Europe subjected to the same rule? Or was it just United?
This will be like a club claiming they had to play with 3 subs vs 5 subs now, play in the era of backpasses to keepers, no offside
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That's fair. Signing the best players from their only rivals at the time must have been a crippling strategy.
 
kaiser1 said:
It's easy to work with something you built that something you inherited.

How many coaches have ever won the CL by inheriting a CL winning team?
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Is it? Is that something you’ve come to, after decades of coaching and your UEFA badges?

Because I’d have thought (and I have no badges/coaching experience) that starting with a team who’d won everything… and players like Lahm, Kroos, Neuer, Alaba, Robben, Ribery, Götze, Müller, etc…. was a positive.
 
erikcred said:
That's fair. Signing the best players from their only rivals at the time must have been a crippling strategy.
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Might help you dominate the local league, it would be different when you get to Europe when you ask to spend on Neymar to strengthen the squad and get given the German Messi(Gotze), or Rode, Jan Kirchoff, Sinan Kurt, Ulrich Douglas Costa, Tasci, 33yr old Xabi
 
kaiser1 said:
So only happens at Madrid.. The best team in Europe of that and all eras
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It's extremely rare that a team wins the CL again soon, in fact Real Madrid is the only club to win it back to back, so yes of course the answer is Real Madrid. But if you are willing to count that: Luis Enrique with Barca, 4 years after Pep's last CL win there. Or look at Jupp Heynckes, wo inherited a Bayern team from LvG that had lost a CL final in 2010 and won it in 2013.
 
KeanoMagicHat said:
Because Zidane has won 2 leagues and 0 domestic cups compared to 12 leagues and 6 cups (10 if you count League Cups?)

'Didn't come close'... one of the most unlucky defeats in a semi-final there's ever been wasn't close to winning a Champions League? Muller missed a penalty, 34 shots on goal, Oblak was man of the match and only lost on away goals?
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12 league titles. TWELVE. And you've got people in this thread trying to convince you that he's not all that. I could give a shit how much money he's spent, plenty of people have spent money. Plenty of people have managed City and Bayern and Barca. None of them have 12 League titles and 3 European Cups. Like NONE of them.

Well we do live in an age of total BS, with Tyson Fury stating that he won both fights against Usyk, so I'm not surprised.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Is it? Is that something you’ve come to, after decades of coaching and your UEFA badges?

Because I’d have thought (and I have no badges/coaching experience) that starting with a team who’d won everything… and players like Lahm, Kroos, Neuer, Alaba, Robben, Ribery, Götze, Müller, etc…. was a positive.
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If it was that easy, Post Pep, the numerous coaches who had coached Barcelona with the players who'd won everything would be winning the CL every season , or those who coached Neymar Mbappe Silva Verrati, Marquinhos at PSG or the great coaches who managed Abramovich machines built at Chelsea

The coaches who inherited Inter from Mourinho would be winning
 
kaiser1 said:
By mid 90s Man Utd was already an elite club in Europe. Ferguson had unrestricted power there unlike Pep at Bayern where he had to work within the strict Bayern framework of buying mostly German or Bundesliga based players

The 2nd excuse is funny. Weren't all clubs in Europe subjected to the same rule? Or was it just United?
This will be like a club claiming they had to play with 3 subs vs 5 subs now, play in the era of backpasses to keepers, no offside
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When the rule was first introduced, do you really think all the other top European clubs had as many 'foreigners' as United did? Baring in mind that even Welsh and Irish players like Giggs, Keane and Irwin were all classified as 'foreign' by that ridiculous rule.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
When the rule was first introduced, do you really think all the other top European clubs had as many 'foreigners' as United did? Baring in mind that even Welsh and Irish players like Giggs, Keane and Irwin were all classified as 'foreign' by that ridiculous rule.
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It’s a waste of time. It’s like a cult.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
Is it? Is that something you’ve come to, after decades of coaching and your UEFA badges?

Because I’d have thought (and I have no badges/coaching experience) that starting with a team who’d won everything… and players like Lahm, Kroos, Neuer, Alaba, Robben, Ribery, Götze, Müller, etc…. was a positive.
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Yeah, utterly ridiculous to try and paint it off as though he was 'restricted' or something to that accord just because he didn't get Neymar, who'd have cost an obscene amount of money and wasn't for sale unless his release clause was met. Pep had spent £145m in 3 seasons on players such as Vidal (one of the best B2B mids in the world), Gotze (one of the top young talents in the world, who was already one of the top players in Bundesliga at the time of his transfer), Thiago and obviously Lewandowski on a fecking free. On top of that list of existing players.
 
kaiser1 said:
If it was that easy, Post Pep, the numerous coaches who had coached Barcelona with the players who'd won everything would be winning the CL every season , or those who coached Neymar Mbappe Silva Verrati, Marquinhos at PSG or the great coaches who managed Abramovich machines built at Chelsea

The coaches who inherited Inter from Mourinho would be winning
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You're wasting your breath by trying to bring sense to a cavalcade of nonsense. Only on this forum could a guy who has won doubles and trebles in two different countries be deemed to have not done enough. He has to win them in 3 different countries.
 
Kwabs said:
You're wasting your breath by trying to bring sense to a cavalcade of nonsense. Only on this forum could a guy who has won doubles and trebles in two different countries be deemed to have not done enough. He has to win them in 3 different countries.
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Well... his Barca team was seen as one of the best ever due to his genius coaching and he took over a treble winning team that had dismantled his former team while he made his sabbatical. Of course it was expected that he would win another treble with Bayern. So yes, it was disappointing in that sense. He couldn't improve on Heynckes' work, and while Heynckes is a very good manager (two times CL winner after all) nobody would put him in a GOAT discussion.
 
stefan92 said:
Well... his Barca team was seen as one of the best ever due to his genius coaching and he took over a treble winning team that had dismantled his former team while he made his sabbatical. Of course it was expected that he would win another treble with Bayern. So yes, it was disappointing in that sense. He couldn't improve on Heynckes' work, and while Heynckes is a very good manager (two times CL winner after all) nobody would put him in a GOAT discussion.
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Well, maybe because Heynckes doesn't have 12 league titles in 3 different countries and 3 European Cups?

I mean, I get what you are saying, and I'm sure Guardiola would have been disappointed that he didn't do better with Bayern in the Champions League. But if we're being realistic, no one wins all the time, even with top teams. That's sport.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
When the rule was first introduced, do you really think all the other top European clubs had as many 'foreigners' as United did? Baring in mind that even Welsh and Irish players like Giggs, Keane and Irwin were all classified as 'foreign' by that ridiculous rule.
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When was the rule first introduced that it affected Man Utd and not other top European clubs?
 
City are losing game after game now.
It started with 2 in a row. Then 4.
Then the media got excited.
Then the media got inside the players heads.
And now they are in a spiral and seems like there is no way out.
Same good players who are winners.

Says a lot. Also for United.
The media really does make it hard.
 
Joga Bonito said:
Yeah, utterly ridiculous to try and paint it off as though he was 'restricted' or something to that accord just because he didn't get Neymar, who'd have cost an obscene amount of money and wasn't for sale unless his release clause was met. Pep had spent £145m in 3 seasons on players such as Vidal (one of the best B2B mids in the world), Gotze (one of the top young talents in the world, who was already one of the top players in Bundesliga at the time of his transfer), Thiago and obviously Lewandowski on a fecking free. On top of that list of existing players.
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Neymar went on to win the CL in that time frame with Barcelona and formed one of the best attacking trio, Gotze turned out to be a lemon, who had medical issues and was useless for all clubs he joined since then

145M in 3 seasons is less than 50m per season. At the time when Man Utd was spending 195M Euros in 14/15 season alone. And a total of 420m Euros in that same 3 seasons Pep spent at Bayern
Barcelona spent over 300m in that time plus the great players like Messi Busquets Xavi Iniesta they had already. Madrid spent over 400M Euros on the already great 2012 squad
 
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Kwabs said:
You're wasting your breath by trying to bring sense to a cavalcade of nonsense. Only on this forum could a guy who has won doubles and trebles in two different countries be deemed to have not done enough. He has to win them in 3 different countries.
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This isn’t bringing sense. Guardiola is overrated. He will never, ever be the GOAT in my eyes.
 
Kwabs said:
You're wasting your breath by trying to bring sense to a cavalcade of nonsense. Only on this forum could a guy who has won doubles and trebles in two different countries be deemed to have not done enough. He has to win them in 3 different countries.
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For many of us it's not about what he's achieved, but how he's achieved it. Shady allegations have followed him since his playing days, and many people on here simply can't overlook that. I'm one of them.

I'd have a lot more respect for his achievements if it wasn't for the cheating/doping/referee bribing allegations.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
For many of us it's not about what he's achieved, but how he's achieved it. Shady allegations have followed him since his playing days, and many people on here simply can't overlook that. I'm one of them.

I'd have a lot more respect for his achievements if it wasn't for the cheating/doping/referee bribing allegations.
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Which manager do you have respect for?
 
kaiser1 said:
When was the rule first introduced that it affected Man Utd and not other top European clubs?
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I am not sure if you're being deliberately obtuse or if you genuinely are struggling to follow something that is so straightforward. Assuming it's the latter, I will spell this one out for you.

AC Milan squad in 1993: almost 100% Italian
Bayern Munich squad in 1993: almost 100% German
Barcelona squad in 1993: almost 100% Spanish
Man United squad in 1993: almost 50% non-English

UEFA introduce a '3 foreigner' rule in 1993.

Are you beginning to see why United were at more of a disadvantage than other European clubs...?
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Are you beginning to see why United were at more of a disadvantage than other European clubs...?
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Sure it was a disadvantage, but it was a deliberate choice by United to ignore English players and go for players belonging to different FAs. It was a self-inflicted problem.
 
stefan92 said:
Sure it was a disadvantage, but it was a deliberate choice by United to ignore English players and go for players belonging to different FAs. It was a self-inflicted problem.
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You think United should have somehow been aware of UEFAs future plans to introduce the '3 foreigner' rule in 1993 at the time they signed Irwin in 1990, Schmeichel in 1991 or Cantona in 1992?
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
You think United should have somehow been aware of UEFAs future plans to introduce the '3 foreigner' rule in 1993 at the time they signed Irwin in 1990, Schmeichel in 1991 or Cantona in 1992?
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Of course that was not really foreseeable that the limitations would be set this strict. But the idea was that clubs should properly represent their country and therefore ensure that players from their country have a chance to play international football. In that sense didn't support English football (enough) and that was the consequence. So while I think that it was unlucky I also think one shouldn't see United as a victim here.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
You think United should have somehow been aware of UEFAs future plans to introduce the '3 foreigner' rule in 1993 at the time they signed Irwin in 1990, Schmeichel in 1991 or Cantona in 1992?
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Kanchelskis in 1991 as well. Keane counted against the foreigner rule when signed in 1993. So did Scottish and Welsh players with the exception of those that had came up through an academy or had played five years in England, given an "exception" clause for matchdays. It really hamstrung English clubs.

Did Argentinians with Italian passports count against the rule in Italy? What about French players recruited from past French colonies playing in France?
 
kaiser1 said:
It's easy to work with something you built that something you inherited.

How many coaches have ever won the CL by inheriting a CL winning team?
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This is absolutely an insane take.

Do you think it's easier to take over the team ranked 17th in the league right now?

You think it's easier to work with Leicester City, get them to the top of Premier League football and get them to win multiple European trophies and Titles, than it is to take over Real Madrid team right now after Ancelotti that has Vinicius, Mbappe, Bellingham?
 
Turn the rot around, and win the Premiership back from Liverpool next season. If he does so, yes, he will be the GOAT.
 
DarkLord1984 said:
Sir Alex Ferguson, Jurgen Klopp, Carlo Ancelotti, among others. Managers who win things without accusations of cheating against them.
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Ancelottis Milan was literally found guilty of match fixing. And docked points. I guess that's not enough cheating in your books
 
kaiser1 said:
Ancelottis Milan was literally found guilty of match fixing. And docked points. I guess that's not enough cheating in your books
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Which had nothing to do with him, which he was completely unaware of and was exonerated for.
 
AfonsoAlves said:
This is absolutely an insane take.

Do you think it's easier to take over the team ranked 17th in the league right now?

You think it's easier to work with Leicester City, get them to the top of Premier League football and get them to win multiple European trophies and Titles, than it is to take over Real Madrid team right now after Ancelotti that has Vinicius, Mbappe, Bellingham?
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A different coach would have instilled his own style of play into the team. It's easier to see how LVG styled team didn't work for Mourinho and OGS styled didn't work for ETH
 
kaiser1 said:
A different coach would have instilled his own style of play into the team. It's easier to see how LVG styled team didn't work for Mourinho and OGS styled didn't work for ETH
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Top quality players who might not fit your style is exponentially better problem to have than having a bunch of relegation candidate fodder in your squad.

I can't believe someone is seriously making this argument.

Also, Guardiola has been implicated in doping scandals as a player, associated with dodgy doctors, implicated in Operation Puerto and then the financial doping at Man City.

Come the feck on now.
 
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