Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

Best Managers to have managed in the PL

Alex Ferguson
Carlo Ancellotti
Jose Mourinho
Jurgen Klopp
Arsene Wenger
Guardiola

Id have him about 6th from managers that ever managed in the PL. So probably not in the top 10 of all time in my book - maybe a stronger case if city are remarkably cleared of cheating, but the city success counts for very little. Without the city cheating period he has messi to thank for most, and then cantered to the bundelisga while failing in europe.
 
SER19 said:
Best Managers to have managed in the PL

Alex Ferguson
Carlo Ancellotti
Jose Mourinho
Jurgen Klopp
Arsene Wenger
Guardiola

Id have him about 6th from managers that ever managed in the PL. So probably not in the top 10 of all time in my book - maybe a stronger case if city are remarkably cleared of cheating, but the city success counts for very little.
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Let's not pretend Mourinho's success with Chelsea was with any other means than City's cheating. The fact it wasn't illegal back then doesn't really make Guardiola a worse manager
 
hellhunter said:
Let's not pretend Mourinho's success with Chelsea was with any other means than City's cheating. The fact it wasn't illegal back then doesn't really make Guardiola a worse manager
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Breaking rules is different to not breaking rules, and Mourinhos titles were in a league with ferguson. Im also not speaking about just PL records, im talking about managers who also managed in PL but their overall records- what Mourinho did at porto and inter, I dont think there is a single chance guardiola could.
 
SER19 said:
Breaking rules is different to not breaking rules, and Mourinhos titles were in a league with ferguson. Im also not speaking about just PL records, im talking about managers who also managed in PL but their overall records- what Mourinho did at porto and inter, I dont think there is a single chance guardiola could.
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The latter part is a fair argument, point taken.

Of course breaking the rules should have consequences, but what does it mean for the manager? They could assemble a more expensive squad than allowed. Chelsea weren't restricted by rules, but still assembled a vastly more expensive squad than their competition
 
Before this people kept bringing up his record in PL, ignoring it's relation to the amount of investment given to him by the club and his predecessors. Ignoring the fact that whenever someone gets injured he can just shop around for the same quality players.

This time the team looks to be low on confidence and he cant shop (yet) due to them being shite early in the season, way before transfer window. So no escape for him this time, which is what other managers in PL has to face almost every year. And he has no answer.

So there will always be doubts about him now. He might be someone you want when you have the resources and if your team is near the top. But he is not a team builder nor a great motivator. Surely he is not the best now. Imagine if he never had all these money or top players whenever he went, he would have found himself in a similar position multiple times. And he would be seen similarly to a bitter, past it version of Mourinho.

At least Mourinho had the balls to keep joining the underdogs.
 
tenpoless said:
Before this people kept bringing up his record in PL, ignoring it's relation to the amount of investment given to him by the club and his predecessors. Ignoring the fact that whenever someone gets injured he can just shop around for the same quality players.

This time the team looks to be low on confidence and he cant shop (yet) due to them being shite early in the season, way before transfer window. So no escape for him this time, which is what other managers in PL has to face almost every year. And he has no answer.

So there will always be doubts about him now. He might be someone you want when you have the resources and if your team is near the top. But he is not a team builder nor a great motivator. Surely he is not the best now. Imagine if he never had all these money or top players whenever he went, he would have found himself in a similar position multiple times. And he would be seen as no more than a bitter, past it version of Mourinho.

At least Mourinho had the balls to keep joining the underdogs.
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I think you compare the career of even Sir Alex now and can’t point to a meltdown like this over an even longer period and it just does rule Pep out.
 
hellhunter said:
The latter part is a fair argument, point taken.

Of course breaking the rules should have consequences, but what does it mean for the manager? They could assemble a more expensive squad than allowed. Chelsea weren't restricted by rules, but still assembled a vastly more expensive squad than their competition
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well in a like for like case here, for the manager, guardiola joined after around 6-7 years of sustained cheating and squad assembly, taking over a team that had already won a title. Mourinho joined after 1 year and built his team on the go to a degree - although yes i fully agree his success was infinitely more likely due to the spending, it was still very different to what city did for years prior to, and in preparation for, guardiola.
 
Kwabs said:
I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Jose: managing in Turkey. And he's not even that old. If he can't adapt, that doesn't speak well for him. A one trick pony whose trick got found out at the elite level.

Clough: a short period of great success, punching way above his weight, and then disappeared into a bottle and got Forest relegated after Taylor left him. Also managed at a time when football was completely different from what it is now, making any comparison between him and Pep a bit ridiculous, TBH.

Ancelotti: has never successfully defended a league title. Like ever.

Klopp: Very charismatic but managed one covid championship. That's it. Then decided he'd jad enough, again at a young age.

Fergie is really the only one who legit can be argued to be better. I mean of Pep's contemporaries, or near contemporaries. Maybe an honourable mention for Ancelotti as well, because of his European success, that can't be sniffed at.

Speaking of which, I don't think Pep has surpassed Fergie yet, but he did wax him in 2 separate Champions League finals. I mean, that did happen. And his career is far from over, he's in his 50s. I'd advise those already throwing dirt on his grave to hold on a minute and see what else he achieves in his career (and indeed how this season itself shakes out at the end).
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I think the debates lies more with when people ignore the context of some of those managers and ignore Pep's good fortune. Pep inherited three of the greatest players of all time at Barca (Xavi, Iniesta, Messi) . What he did with Barca is incredible, but boy did he have a good (if previously underperfroming) squad to work with. He then goes to Bayern, which until recently is basically a one team league, and he actually fails to win in Europe with them. Then he goes to City who have infinite wealth and strong accusations that they've cheated for a long time. Again, his achievements are great but on closer inspection, it's not exactly a miracle is it? So you see, Pep has been a great manager....but he's never crafted something that needed a lot of work and with limited resources. Now lets look at some of the others:

Sir Alex- won a European trophy against Real Madrid with Aberdeen....Aberdeen :lol: !!! Goes to England where he then builds up a United team that takes a huge amount of time to get going, he then has to rebuild the team another few times over a twenty year period, and never once falling lower than a third place finish in the league during the premiership years.

Jose- wins the champions league with Porto (!!) goes to moneybags Chelsea and breaks up the Sir Alex and Wenger hold on the league, and then goes to Italy and wins a treble with Inter. The Porto and Inter achievements are very impressive.

Klopp- Actually wins leagues with Dortmund on a fairly tight budget, and with his players often 'stolen' by Bayern or other bigger clubs. Moves to Liverpool who have been a joke in the league for most of the premier league era and just completely rebuilds the club, wins a champions league and premier league and is two games away from a quadruple.

Do you see why some people think Pep has had it a bit easier? You can say Jose or Klopp spent big at times but at Inter and Liverpool they made a huge profit selling big players and buying brilliantly (think Ibra or Coutinho sales and buying Eto and Alisson).
 
Sir Alex is most probably the GOAT. His work at Aberdeen and longevity at United repeatedly refreshing and dominating sets him apart. European record has some mitigations alongside some failures on his part, but he eventually learned and became more consistent at the end and some bad luck and horrendous refereeing ruined his last ever CL campaign which still breaks my heart to think about.

If Sir Alex had the level of advantage that Pep has enjoyed at City he'd have been so much more fun with real exciting players that we missed out on. I have little doubt with the blank chequebook Pep has had, that Fergie would have had a field day setting all kinds of records. Regardless of his chequebook advantage and cheating, Pep has been an incredible coach and will be one of the GOATs without doubt. Consistently winning league titles is harder than winning the odd cup competition, no matter how prestigious the cup is. It is especially harder to win the league when you are already champions, being the hunter is always easier than being the hunted, which is why Wenger - as great as he is - has always been way below Fergie.
 
In some aspects, you can say Pep is the greatest. In others it's Fergie, and Ancelotti, and Michels.

The idea that one is unquestionabely the greatest is the silly in any field. And comparing people who are in different stages of their career is particularly pointless.
 
hellhunter said:
Let's not pretend Mourinho's success with Chelsea was with any other means than City's cheating. The fact it wasn't illegal back then doesn't really make Guardiola a worse manager
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Chelsea spent their way to the top, but Mourinho put them on the map and took the league by storm that year. City were already on the map spending their way to league titles before Guardiola arrived, and spending for a lot longer too.
 
Kwabs said:
I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Jose: managing in Turkey. And he's not even that old. If he can't adapt, that doesn't speak well for him. A one trick pony whose trick got found out at the elite level.

Clough: a short period of great success, punching way above his weight, and then disappeared into a bottle and got Forest relegated after Taylor left him. Also managed at a time when football was completely different from what it is now, making any comparison between him and Pep a bit ridiculous, TBH.

Ancelotti: has never successfully defended a league title. Like ever.

Klopp: Very charismatic but managed one covid championship. That's it. Then decided he'd jad enough, again at a young age.

Fergie is really the only one who legit can be argued to be better. I mean of Pep's contemporaries, or near contemporaries. Maybe an honourable mention for Ancelotti as well, because of his European success, that can't be sniffed at.

Speaking of which, I don't think Pep has surpassed Fergie yet, but he did wax him in 2 separate Champions League finals. I mean, that did happen. And his career is far from over, he's in his 50s. I'd advise those already throwing dirt on his grave to hold on a minute and see what else he achieves in his career (and indeed how this season itself shakes out at the end).
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So much in there :lol:, but let’s just do Clough.

Went to Derby in Div.2… got them promoted in a couple of years, then div.1 champions three years later. And to European Cup semis.

And that’s before Forest which you belittle to “a short period of success” :lol: … takes a complete hotch potch of players (old, unwanted) to Div.1. Completely made players better than they should have been and the team more than the sum of their parts. Changed Kenny Burns from an argumentative forward to a defender who wins the player of the year award.

After promotion, went … champions, EC winners, EC winners in the next three seasons. Literally unprecedented.
 
I think he’s going to be terrified of losing his mojo and having a Mourinho arc where the modern game evolves ahead of him and he loses confidence to dominate matches and loses that air of invincibility which is so so important. For years teams would write off the fixtures against them and show them too much respect, it can’t be understated how much that can benefit you over the course of the season.
 
Kwabs said:
I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Jose: managing in Turkey. And he's not even that old. If he can't adapt, that doesn't speak well for him. A one trick pony whose trick got found out at the elite level.

Clough: a short period of great success, punching way above his weight, and then disappeared into a bottle and got Forest relegated after Taylor left him. Also managed at a time when football was completely different from what it is now, making any comparison between him and Pep a bit ridiculous, TBH.

Ancelotti: has never successfully defended a league title. Like ever.

Klopp: Very charismatic but managed one covid championship. That's it. Then decided he'd jad enough, again at a young age.

Fergie is really the only one who legit can be argued to be better. I mean of Pep's contemporaries, or near contemporaries. Maybe an honourable mention for Ancelotti as well, because of his European success, that can't be sniffed at.

Speaking of which, I don't think Pep has surpassed Fergie yet, but he did wax him in 2 separate Champions League finals. I mean, that did happen. And his career is far from over, he's in his 50s. I'd advise those already throwing dirt on his grave to hold on a minute and see what else he achieves in his career (and indeed how this season itself shakes out at the end).
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You’ve tried to denigrate others to advance Pep with either an ignorant, ill-informed post, or, a purposely antagonistic one that reduces others to footnotes.

Either way, bad angle that doesn’t serve to advance Pep.
 
Kwabs said:
I mean, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

Jose: managing in Turkey. And he's not even that old. If he can't adapt, that doesn't speak well for him. A one trick pony whose trick got found out at the elite level.

Clough: a short period of great success, punching way above his weight, and then disappeared into a bottle and got Forest relegated after Taylor left him. Also managed at a time when football was completely different from what it is now, making any comparison between him and Pep a bit ridiculous, TBH.

Ancelotti: has never successfully defended a league title. Like ever.

Klopp: Very charismatic but managed one covid championship. That's it. Then decided he'd jad enough, again at a young age.

Fergie is really the only one who legit can be argued to be better. I mean of Pep's contemporaries, or near contemporaries. Maybe an honourable mention for Ancelotti as well, because of his European success, that can't be sniffed at.

Speaking of which, I don't think Pep has surpassed Fergie yet, but he did wax him in 2 separate Champions League finals. I mean, that did happen. And his career is far from over, he's in his 50s. I'd advise those already throwing dirt on his grave to hold on a minute and see what else he achieves in his career (and indeed how this season itself shakes out at the end).
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Indeed. Glad to see you're making full use of that right.
 
Fortitude said:
You’ve tried to denigrate others to advance Pep with either an ignorant, ill-informed post, or, a purposely antagonistic one that reduces others to footnotes.

Either way, bad angle that doesn’t serve to advance Pep.
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I replied to the Clough point but it could have been any of them.

The Ancelotti one is ridiculous (titles in five countries). I’m 99.9% sure he’s wumming :nono:
 
SER19 said:
what Mourinho did at porto and inter, I dont think there is a single chance guardiola could.
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Let's not forget how lucky Mourinho was to win the CL for Porto - that ridiculous offside decision against Scholes in the last sixteen helped them out. That was the kind of moment when United would have gone on to score another one or two or even three from, but in the end it was the difference for Porto. They also won the semi-final against Deportivo thanks to a solitary soft penalty, and then faced only Monaco in the final. It was a freak.

Plus people forget they were found guilty of bribing officials when Mourinho was their coach: Porto kicked out of Champions League next season over bribery of referees in 2003-04

Never, ever forget.
 
Such bad takes in this thread after every City defeat. At least we can conclusively say that the myth that Pep plays low risk football is truly just a myth.
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
The Ancelotti one is ridiculous (titles in five countries). I’m 99.9% sure he’s wumming :nono:
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Well, it's true isn't it? Ancelotti's league record is a fairly big negative mark on his managerial career I'd say (or at least of any GOAT-claim of his). I also think it makes no sense simultaneously rate Ancelotti above Pep while rating Fergie above Ancelotti.
 
Irwin99 said:
I think the debates lies more with when people ignore the context of some of those managers and ignore Pep's good fortune. Pep inherited three of the greatest players of all time at Barca (Xavi, Iniesta, Messi) . What he did with Barca is incredible, but boy did he have a good (if previously underperfroming) squad to work with. He then goes to Bayern, which until recently is basically a one team league, and he actually fails to win in Europe with them. Then he goes to City who have infinite wealth and strong accusations that they've cheated for a long time. Again, his achievements are great but on closer inspection, it's not exactly a miracle is it? So you see, Pep has been a great manager....but he's never crafted something that needed a lot of work and with limited resources. Now lets look at some of the others:

Sir Alex- won a European trophy against Real Madrid with Aberdeen....Aberdeen :lol: !!! Goes to England where he then builds up a United team that takes a huge amount of time to get going, he then has to rebuild the team another few times over a twenty year period, and never once falling lower than a third place finish in the league during the premiership years.

Jose- wins the champions league with Porto (!!) goes to moneybags Chelsea and breaks up the Sir Alex and Wenger hold on the league, and then goes to Italy and wins a treble with Inter. The Porto and Inter achievements are very impressive.

Klopp- Actually wins leagues with Dortmund on a fairly tight budget, and with his players often 'stolen' by Bayern or other bigger clubs. Moves to Liverpool who have been a joke in the league for most of the premier league era and just completely rebuilds the club, wins a champions league and premier league and is two games away from a quadruple.

Do you see why some people think Pep has had it a bit easier? You can say Jose or Klopp spent big at times but at Inter and Liverpool they made a huge profit selling big players and buying brilliantly (think Ibra or Coutinho sales and buying Eto and Alisson).
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I mean, I hear what you are saying, but let's not undersell what Pep did with Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. Other managers (many managers) have had those 3 players and none of them were a parked bus away from 3 straight league and Champions League doubles.

He won the first treble in Spanish football history in 2008-09, then they won the league again in 2009-10 and narrowly lost to Inter in the CL semi final, thanks to some epic bus parking from Mourinho, who essentially played Eto'o at left back in the second leg. I'd have backed Barca to beat Bayern handily in the final if they had gotten there.

Then they won the league and Champions League double again in 2010-11. All whilst playing scintillating football. It was an incredible period, and that still remains the best team I've ever seen.

The other thing is, Pep was a top player, and part of the Barca fabric, so he got to start his managerial career as the Barca manager. Most of the managers we're discussing were not top players, so as managers, they started at lower levels.

Top players often get big managerial jobs (beyond their experience, especially at clubs where they are a legend or stalwart) at or near the start of their careers. It's not fair but that's the way it is.

The other thing that I would say is that people get a bit confused re the scale of certain achievements. For example, we all accept that Fergie winning the CWC with Aberdeen v Real Madrid was a great achievement, but doing that in the 80s and doing it now are two completely different things. We are in the Super club era now, after the Bosman ruling and the scrapping of the 3 foreigners rule.

The gap between the top European clubs and leagues and the rest wasn't the chasm that it is now. Same thing with Forest winning the European Cup, it's not equivalent to Forest doing it now.
 
I can't understand United fans wanting him sacked. After years of enduring his cheat winning and wankfests about his greatness, now it's time for us to enjoy the inevitable downfall of City and Pep, let it continue for many more months.
 
Kwabs said:
I mean, I hear what you are saying, but let's not undersell what Pep did with Messi, Iniesta and Xavi. Other managers (many managers) have had those 3 players and none of them were a parked bus away from 3 straight league and Champions League doubles.

He won the first treble in Spanish football history in 2008-09, then they won the league again in 2009-10 and narrowly lost to Inter in the CL semi final, thanks to some epic bus parking from Mourinho, who essentially played Eto'o at left back in the second leg. I'd have backed Barca to beat Bayern handily in the final if they had gotten there.

Then they won the league and Champions League double again in 2010-11. All whilst playing scintillating football. It was an incredible period, and that still remains the best team I've ever seen.

The other thing is, Pep was a top player, and part of the Barca fabric, so he got to start his managerial career as the Barca manager. Most of the managers we're discussing were not top players, so as managers, they started at lower levels.

Top players often get big managerial jobs (beyond their experience, especially at clubs where they are a legend or stalwart) at or near the start of their careers. It's not fair but that's the way it is.

The other thing that I would say is that people get a bit confused re the scale of certain achievements. For example, we all accept that Fergie winning the CWC with Aberdeen v Real Madrid was a great achievement, but doing that in the 80s and doing it now are two completely different things. We are in the Super club era now, after the Bosman ruling and the scrapping of the 3 foreigners rule.

The gap between the top European clubs and leagues and the rest wasn't the chasm that it is now. Same thing with Forest winning the European Cup, it's not equivalent to Forest doing it now.
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Who took drugs let's not forget.
 
CoopersDream said:
Such bad takes in this thread after every City defeat. At least we can conclusively say that the myth that Pep plays low risk football is truly just a myth.

Well, it's true isn't it? Ancelotti's league record is a fairly big negative mark on his managerial career I'd say (or at least of any GOAT-claim of his). I also think it makes no sense simultaneously rate Ancelotti above Pep while rating Fergie above Ancelotti.
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You’re missing the point. He’s being deliberately selective with which stat he uses to belittle “anyone bar Pep”.
 
Kwabs said:
The other thing that I would say is that people get a bit confused re the scale of certain achievements. For example, we all accept that Fergie winning the CWC with Aberdeen v Real Madrid was a great achievement, but doing that in the 80s and doing it now are two completely different things. We are in the Super club era now, after the Bosman ruling and the scrapping of the 3 foreigners rule.

The gap between the top European clubs and leagues and the rest wasn't the chasm that it is now. Same thing with Forest winning the European Cup, it's not equivalent to Forest doing it now.
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This is a key point here. There's no point in comparing achievements in different eras. Thinking that Pep would need to "do it at Aberdeen' or something along those lines is ridiculous, because what would even the equivalent be? Winning with Arsenal?
 
Kwabs said:
Klopp: Very charismatic but managed one covid championship. That's it. Then decided he'd jad enough, again at a young age.
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Pool were 20+ pts clear with about 10 games left before things were locked down. No one was catching them.

People say it was a covid title as if they played the entire season in empty stadiums.

I rate Klopp for how we built his team from bag average to challenging and winning the biggest titles.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
You’re missing the point. He’s being deliberately selective with which stat he uses to belittle “anyone bar Pep”.
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Not really. People are literally in this very thread holding City's current form against Pep in any such manager rankings. If you can do that, you can certainly point out holes in other managers resumes. Also, putting Klopp ahead of Pep must be what this forum would call being a WUM. Klopp would be the first to admit that he's nowhere near Pep.
 
Kwabs said:
The other thing is, Pep was a top player, and part of the Barca fabric, so he got to start his managerial career as the Barca manager. Most of the managers we're discussing were not top players, so as managers, they started at lower levels.
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Pep was a decent player.

Fergie was less so, though played for Rangers and top league scorer one season.

Of players with over 200 goals in the English leagues, Clough has the highest goals-per-game ratio of 0.916. Ever.

Paisley lost years to WW2 but was a good player too, winning a league with Liverpool.

Busby was a very good player (ironically playing for City and Liverpool).

And Ancelotti, well surely you know he was a very good player?
 
CoopersDream said:
Not really. People are literally in this very thread holding City's current form against Pep in any such manager rankings. If you can do that, you can certainly point out holes in other managers resumes. Also, putting Klopp ahead of Pep must be what this forum would call being a WUM. Klopp would be the first to admit that he's nowhere near Pep.
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I couldn’t give a toss what other posters are saying. Read what I said in reply to him… THAT’S what you replied to.

And quote my post mentioning Klopp was better than Pep. Or even mentioning Klopp at all.

That’s tangential. Or disengenous.
 
Steffa Barnesa said:
Let's not forget how lucky Mourinho was to win the CL for Porto - that ridiculous offside decision against Scholes in the last sixteen helped them out. That was the kind of moment when United would have gone on to score another one or two or even three from, but in the end it was the difference for Porto. They also won the semi-final against Deportivo thanks to a solitary soft penalty, and then faced only Monaco in the final. It was a freak.

Plus people forget they were found guilty of bribing officials when Mourinho was their coach: Porto kicked out of Champions League next season over bribery of referees in 2003-04

Never, ever forget.
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Im not going to hold luck against managers much, even our 99 win was peppered with luck, and Barcas 09 semi final win is one of the most controversial wins in modern football and still stinks a little today- if youre going down any conspiratorial routes. Mourinhos defeat of Barca with inter, on the way to the treble was an incredible feat. You could call mourinhos porto win a freak if he didnt do it a few years later with another unfancied team- both of those CL wins put each of guardiolas in the shade, I believe any manager worth anything would have won the cl with that barca side, its also why spain won 2 euros and a world cup with that midfield trio that was once in a generation, with the bonus of messi at barca.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
I couldn’t give a toss what other posters are saying. Read what I said in reply to him… THAT’S what you replied to.

And quote my post mentioning Klopp was better than Pep. Or even mentioning Klopp at all.

That’s tangential. Or disengenous.
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The context was the post pointing out holes in other managers resumes. That post was in reply to someone saying Klopp is ahead Pep. Thought you'd get that. Anyway, good night to you, there's really nothing to discuss here.
 
Irrational. said:
After reading another nauseating suckjob piece by Ballbag on the BBC website, it appears he has already been crowned the GOAT manager by some.

What do we think? We may have a slightly biased view on this platform but for me he will never usurp Sir Alex in the managerial standings. I just can’t ignore the fact that he’s played Football Manager with every club he’s been at. He’s never been an underdog manager.

He has introduced a revolutionary style of football, but then so did Clop.
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No it's Sam allardyce as city fans will soon be finding out.
 
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