On the brink of 5 CLs and City are quite clearly the dominant team of this era, yet he's regularly knocked them out.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
- Start date
I guess spending only happened in the last 5 years... I also guess the reports of City spending under the table and off the books didn't happen
1. He has not won 5 today
Madrid is the dominant team of every era. Anyone can win the CL with Madrid, Zidane without any experience won 3 in a row
Pep vs Carlo matches in the last 3 seasons
4-3, 2-1 Madrid progress on away goals
1-1, 4-0 City progress on aggregates win 5-1
3-3, 1-1 Madrid progress on penalty
2 wins to Pep, 1 win to Carlo and 3 draws
Pep has only been at City for 8yrs
They conveniently ignore Don Carlo's huge shortcomings as well just to hype him up against Pep.
only a "single" title in 8 years in Serie A, at AC Milan with Shevchenko, Rui Costa, Kaka, Nesta, Maldini, Stam, Cafu, Pirlo, Seedorf, Inzaghi, Crespo etc. Not to mention how he was fired from Bayern and had to move to Everton eventually.
only a "single" title in 13 years at Serie A coaching AC Milan, Juve and Parma..
The amount of copium used here to justify placing anyone over Pep is too extreme.. Many football fans other than some forum members here see Pep as the GOAT already.
Pep's teams almost always dominate against any team in any competition regardless of whether they win or lose, this is unprecedented in football history.
We can all have different criteria for GOAT. CL is one of the most important criteria because it's the hardest to win. Anyway, IMO Ancelotti is one of the example.
Maybe the below article is a better gauge?
https://www.fourfourtwo.com/features/ranked-the-100-best-football-managers-of-all-time/10
If the CL is the most important criteria then you should have zero issues with Pep >> Ferguson
Carlo 4, Pep Zidane 3 CL, Ferguson 2
I said one of. There are many other contexts and criterias.
Klopp is slighty more classy than narcissistic managers like Mourinho despite being cringe at times. Its a bit like Fergie congratulating Klopp on his PL win.
Carlo has coached the best teams all over Europe has 6 league titles, He has coached teams who have been punished for match fixing, and teams sponsored by Oligarchs
115 allegation that mostly happened before Pep is enough to put asterisks on his greatness but Carlos team actually punished and relegated for match fixing is not enough
How would they buy players under the table?
I guess All the clubs who buy and sell to City are in collusion to manipulate the transfer fee
Short players like Silva and Aguero
I think there has to be distinctions between a coach and manager as both roles pertain to similar and different responsibilities even though they are meshed together.
SAF for me is the greatest manager of all time, his ethics and groundwork essentially built United into a powerhouse and despite having all the charisma, man-management and team building credentials he was still an astute tactician overseeing the transitions into different eras within challenging for the premier league. There's the cliche of 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' and that truly has been realized with the consistent framework of failure, every single United manager has encountered trying to replicate the function of Sir Alex with this present United team. In some ways it's an impossible task because it's a specific role that was garnered by the gravity of the individual over the executions of tasks and responsibilities.
Whereas with a coach we are talking about philosophy, approach and instructions to create new aptitudes in a professional footballers intuition to the extent that new methodologies behind the way the game is played evolves and in this category exists your John Cruyff's who is not necessarily heralded for his potency as a manager, but his ideology which has had a direct influence on most modern coaches culminating from Pep's own inspiration.
So that's where I see the difference, Pep is undoubtedly the greatest coach in the sports history and deserves a genius like status in the way he can continue to reinvent himself through his tactical imprint on the touchline filtering down to the players. In a head-to-head he gets the best of any coach regardless of time, name, title and reputation because he has raised the profile of football through his ideas and whenever you study business or philosophy, the world is ruled through ideas often-time dead-men's ideas; Plato, Aristotle, Andrew Carnegie and Karl Marx whose minds singlehandedly have formed the modern adaptations of democracy, society, capitalism and the education system (influenced by the industrial age) it's an illustration that the most powerful asset in all innovation, growth and development is the brain and that's where Pep shines. Tucking fullbacks into central areas, defenders playing beyond a sweeper high into the midfield, goalkeeping distribution like an outfield player, that's not assessing team shape and attacking rotations the newer nuances pioneered by his vision.
Also a reason why most modern management roles are personified by coaches, what a manager would have oversight over previously has now been compressed to hierarchical structures between a director of football and the technical roles that are subordinates. Football has long moved away from prolific managers and it's for this same reason many bemoan the current landscape in the market of 'exceptional' managers because clubs are no longer requiring looking at CV's but performance data that signifies coaching credentials. Brighton were famed for it last season and recently Liverpool have supposedly adopted the same criteria to determine their choices. We all laugh for instance at the appointment of Arne Slot provisionally, but in line with how the differing departments accumulate information in data for comprehension of how a coach aligns with the footballing structures directives, it could be an astute choice from an objective standpoint. That's where the game is heading and Pep's influence cannot be overstated in this.
SAF for me is the greatest manager of all time, his ethics and groundwork essentially built United into a powerhouse and despite having all the charisma, man-management and team building credentials he was still an astute tactician overseeing the transitions into different eras within challenging for the premier league. There's the cliche of 'heavy is the head that wears the crown' and that truly has been realized with the consistent framework of failure, every single United manager has encountered trying to replicate the function of Sir Alex with this present United team. In some ways it's an impossible task because it's a specific role that was garnered by the gravity of the individual over the executions of tasks and responsibilities.
Whereas with a coach we are talking about philosophy, approach and instructions to create new aptitudes in a professional footballers intuition to the extent that new methodologies behind the way the game is played evolves and in this category exists your John Cruyff's who is not necessarily heralded for his potency as a manager, but his ideology which has had a direct influence on most modern coaches culminating from Pep's own inspiration.
So that's where I see the difference, Pep is undoubtedly the greatest coach in the sports history and deserves a genius like status in the way he can continue to reinvent himself through his tactical imprint on the touchline filtering down to the players. In a head-to-head he gets the best of any coach regardless of time, name, title and reputation because he has raised the profile of football through his ideas and whenever you study business or philosophy, the world is ruled through ideas often-time dead-men's ideas; Plato, Aristotle, Andrew Carnegie and Karl Marx whose minds singlehandedly have formed the modern adaptations of democracy, society, capitalism and the education system (influenced by the industrial age) it's an illustration that the most powerful asset in all innovation, growth and development is the brain and that's where Pep shines. Tucking fullbacks into central areas, defenders playing beyond a sweeper high into the midfield, goalkeeping distribution like an outfield player, that's not assessing team shape and attacking rotations the newer nuances pioneered by his vision.
Also a reason why most modern management roles are personified by coaches, what a manager would have oversight over previously has now been compressed to hierarchical structures between a director of football and the technical roles that are subordinates. Football has long moved away from prolific managers and it's for this same reason many bemoan the current landscape in the market of 'exceptional' managers because clubs are no longer requiring looking at CV's but performance data that signifies coaching credentials. Brighton were famed for it last season and recently Liverpool have supposedly adopted the same criteria to determine their choices. We all laugh for instance at the appointment of Arne Slot provisionally, but in line with how the differing departments accumulate information in data for comprehension of how a coach aligns with the footballing structures directives, it could be an astute choice from an objective standpoint. That's where the game is heading and Pep's influence cannot be overstated in this.
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Point being?
Maybe read the reports? Wages paid off the books
I'll always find it difficult to call him the greatest over SAF given the uncertainty on the finances of City, United never had the type of advantage over other clubs that City have had. We still won 6 in 9, and similarly a UCL title, compared to their 6 in 7.
Ofcourse, this doesn't include his Barca and Bayern tenure, where he on the one hand had the greatest player to play the game in his team and the other a team with even more of an advantage over the rest than City, whose dominance in the league continued even after Pep left.
Ofcourse, this doesn't include his Barca and Bayern tenure, where he on the one hand had the greatest player to play the game in his team and the other a team with even more of an advantage over the rest than City, whose dominance in the league continued even after Pep left.
How many of the titles Ferguson won with Ronaldo (one of the greatest players to play the game in his team) should be discounted?
True, I believe he will though, at the expense of Pep's City.
I'm not really trying to convince you otherwise, it's just my opinion on it. It's a perfectly strong and legitimate argument that Pep is the greatest of all time.
It's unfair to Pep because I think its true that his Barca stint exceeded all expectations. That's where he beat the odds. Nobody thought that Pep was going to win the treble in his first season and create perhaps the dominant team in history. Man Utd was considered the team in the world before the cl final. Because of that he's always walked into jobs where everything is overwhelming in his favour and i feel.in the UCL he's fallen short. Obviously all the credible cheating/doping Allegations work against him and the whole Fuentes debacle is shady as hell beyond City's financial doping.
I talk to a lot of football fans that don't have him as the 'GOAT' Many people agree he's an all time great but being the 'GOAT' is subjective. There will be another Pep that comes along, we might have one coming through now in Xabi Alonso and in 20+ years time that coach will have surpassed Guardiola's achievements and he will be known as the GOAT. But I will guarantee you something, there won't be another Sir Alex Ferguson.
This thread needs to be closed.
The answer is clearly that while he is a very good manager, no, he is not the greatest manager of all time. /thread.
For this thread title to be popping up on the homepage as an almost constant for the last couple of months, is just taking the piss. It’s actually sad that such a debate can take such a sustained pride of place on a United forum. It’s been done to death.
And no, I am not saying we shouldn’t talk about other teams, players, managers etc. That’s part of what I like about this place, is that you can. But having the “Is Guardiola the greatest manager of all time” pop up on the homepage almost every time I log in for the last two months, is just taking it too fecking far. What is this? The Pep fan club? An adjunct City forum? Or just a bitter Rawk like cesspit?
66 fecking pages on this topic you mewling quims.
The answer is clearly that while he is a very good manager, no, he is not the greatest manager of all time. /thread.
For this thread title to be popping up on the homepage as an almost constant for the last couple of months, is just taking the piss. It’s actually sad that such a debate can take such a sustained pride of place on a United forum. It’s been done to death.
And no, I am not saying we shouldn’t talk about other teams, players, managers etc. That’s part of what I like about this place, is that you can. But having the “Is Guardiola the greatest manager of all time” pop up on the homepage almost every time I log in for the last two months, is just taking it too fecking far. What is this? The Pep fan club? An adjunct City forum? Or just a bitter Rawk like cesspit?
66 fecking pages on this topic you mewling quims.
3, and none of the 6 in 9 I mentioned, but Ronaldo wasn't the greatest to play the game during those years.
6 pl trophies in 8 seasons. Best indeed and unprecedented 4 pl trophies continuously.
Maybe ignore the thread?
If he stays on his current trajectory in about 10 years Frank Schmidt will have reached the same longevity at Heidenheim as SAF at United and will have won a bunch of European cups and German titles, after taking over Heidenheim in the 5th tier of German football 16 years ago
That's wages, not buying players.
Among the best for sure, but I don't think any manager deserves to be called the best of all time.
There have been too many good ones, and picking one over another would be unfair to the one who wasn't picked.
It's not just Guardiola, Ancelotti and Ferguson .... there's just too many who deserve the credit.
Just to mention one, Marcello Lippi deserves the credit too. Guardiola is no more special than any of the other ones.
There have been too many good ones, and picking one over another would be unfair to the one who wasn't picked.
It's not just Guardiola, Ancelotti and Ferguson .... there's just too many who deserve the credit.
Just to mention one, Marcello Lippi deserves the credit too. Guardiola is no more special than any of the other ones.
Yea they would need to be, also means they would be more restricted due to the financial rules.
Ooooo, good job.
Really? None of those years? Even when he won the Balloon d'Or?
Heidenheim aren't exactly Manchester United.If he stays on his current trajectory in about 10 years Frank Schmidt will have reached the same longevity at Heidenheim as SAF at United and will have won a bunch of European cups and German titles, after taking over Heidenheim in the 5th tier of German football 16 years ago
I’m not just saying it for my own sanity. I’m saying it for the sanity and dignity of the United collective on here.
Ferguson remains the greatest manager without bias.
Pros for Ferguson vs Guardiola:
1. Won the premier league with a hitherto struggling side (Man Utd). Pep managed established top sides with top players through out.
2. Ferguson had success with Aberdeen including in Europe. Pep has never managed such an unfancied side.
3. The moment Pep couldn't buy/ inherit players to play his style at Bayern, he wasn't as successful. Winning the bundesliga with Bayern was like winning a race between a ferrari and a group of Toyota corollas.
4. Pep manages at a club that will always have * on their titles. Ferguson never had such questions over him.
5. Ferguson built and demolished sides but remained successful regardless even with fairly average footballers like Cleverly, Fletcher and Oshea.
6. Ferguson faced several unique challenges throughout his career an Man Utd manager: winning the first title, challenge from Wengers brand of continental football, challenge from a free spending Chelsea side, Challenge from the financial dopers aka noisy neighbours themselves AND managed to be win titles.
I have no doubt if he was still pursuing manager, we'd have taken atleast half of the titles City have won since Pep joined them.
Pros for Pep:
1. 4 straight epl titles*
2. 2 trebles*
3. Revolutionary style of football.
*115 charges.
The alleged Barcelona scandal regarding referees I don't buy because I saw as many decisions for them as against them throughout.
Pros for Ferguson vs Guardiola:
1. Won the premier league with a hitherto struggling side (Man Utd). Pep managed established top sides with top players through out.
2. Ferguson had success with Aberdeen including in Europe. Pep has never managed such an unfancied side.
3. The moment Pep couldn't buy/ inherit players to play his style at Bayern, he wasn't as successful. Winning the bundesliga with Bayern was like winning a race between a ferrari and a group of Toyota corollas.
4. Pep manages at a club that will always have * on their titles. Ferguson never had such questions over him.
5. Ferguson built and demolished sides but remained successful regardless even with fairly average footballers like Cleverly, Fletcher and Oshea.
6. Ferguson faced several unique challenges throughout his career an Man Utd manager: winning the first title, challenge from Wengers brand of continental football, challenge from a free spending Chelsea side, Challenge from the financial dopers aka noisy neighbours themselves AND managed to be win titles.
I have no doubt if he was still pursuing manager, we'd have taken atleast half of the titles City have won since Pep joined them.
Pros for Pep:
1. 4 straight epl titles*
2. 2 trebles*
3. Revolutionary style of football.
*115 charges.
The alleged Barcelona scandal regarding referees I don't buy because I saw as many decisions for them as against them throughout.
I talk to a lot of football fans from Germany, Italy, Spain etc. who never saw SAF as the GOAT.
This is like a Premier League echo chamber where people act like there's an obligation to call SAF as the GOAT. All these nations have their own legends and superior leagues during most of SAF's tenure at United. No way an average Italian will put SAF over someone like Lippi or Ancelotti for example.
And, this makes a lot of sense. Why should La Liga - Serie A fans prioritize success in inferior Premier League when they had the best leagues & players? Especially in the light of SAF's underwhelming performance at UCL and other top PL teams' regular failures like Arsenal in the UCL, the team that came closest to United during SAF's tenure.
Pep has left his mark in a dominant fashion wherever he has been, and never fell from grace. He has already dominated Premier League (SAF's home) like no other.
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This is exactly the way I see it, I don't regard Ferguson that high. Hitzfeld beat him almost regularly save for the last 2mins of the 99 final. What I remember more is Ferguson getting embarrassed in the CL many seasons
Ferguson had the most stability of any manager in that time and won 2 CL titles
I think its fair and a good idea to separate manager from coach the way you do here to highlight different criteria for different roles. But the bolded bit is not accurate at all. Carnegie did not singlehandedly form anything. He is no more relevant than the other American robber barons (Rockefeller, Morgan, Gould, Vanderbilt) and probably not even the most important of those 5. That also ignores a lot of the most important economists as well. Marx also didn't singlehandedly form anything to do with education either. In general, I think this bolded bit is really off base when it comes to history.
... yetHeidenheim aren't exactly Manchester United.
In 1998-99 Man Utd drew eachother twice in the group stage. And in the final United where missing Keane and Scholes. They still won the final though.
So im not really sure how Hitzfeld beat him regularly considering he didn't beat once.
He beat him twice on their way to Champions league triumph with Dortmund .