Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

Demyanenko_square_jaw said:
Most of the recognised greats did it at big clubs, there's no credit being taken away...it's almost a prerequisite over the last few decades to get any lasting legacy. If anything it tends to be the opposite, and the managers/players that got smaller teams to have a golden era get downplayed far more regularly, sometimes excessively so.
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I don't really see that. Liverpool are not a small club but they were underdogs to City and yet Klopp's achievements are anything but downplayed. Pochettino gets lot of credit for his work at the relatively unfacied Tottenham. The same can be said of Simeone at Atlético Madrid or if we're talking in the now, look at how Alonso's work is being viewed. If anything, I would say, lot of clubs are looking to hire managers now who didn't even win much but because they got a smaller team or a team from a lower level punching above their weight. If you mean by smaller clubs, something like Aberdeen, I would say that just doesn't happen anymore due to the ever growing financial gap between clubs.

On the other hand, you regularly saw opponents fans dismissing Sir Alex's achievements because we were the richest team in the league. Obviously that all changes with time when rivalries take a back seat to the objective appreciation of greatness.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Shameful tweet. Can't believe they haven't taken it down yet, especially when you consider that they have an association with United.
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Weird.

The owner, Fred Done is a big United fan from Salford and watched us under Busby so it's not just a business association.

Before it was Betfred it was Done bookamkers. I remember in the 90s/2000s they'd do little publicity stunts, often to do with United and in the press releases they'd always state how much of a fan he was. Things like paying out bets on those who had backed United to win the league early and before it was mathematically certain. Can't remember exact details, but situations along the lines of us being 5 points ahead with 3 or 4 games to go. Think they lost money at least once doing that.

Edit: Found this


Not that he's going to be personally running their social media account on a Sunday night when he's in his 80s now, but I find that odd from them. Suppose there's always me being naive over the reality that business will always come first too, but still!
 
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If Fergie retired in 1994 with bringing United back to the top on his own and the success with Aberdeen, I still think there’d be an argument for him over Pep. If he retired in 1999 I’d be calling out anyone saying Pep. If he retired in 2009 I wouldn’t even be willing to listen to anyone saying Pep. The fact he retired in 2013 with more league titles won with so many more average players makes me raging that this thread exists.
 
No he's barely proved anything. Only 3 CL wins is flop achievement considering the teams he's had and number of seasons played.

All he's proved is he can make good players pass in triangles really good and fast.
 
If and it's a big if any of the charges against city are proved and their titles stripped it would do tremendous amounts of damage to his legacy.
 
Red the Bear said:
If and it's a big if any of the charges against city are proved and their titles stripped it would do tremendous amounts of damage to his legacy.
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As it should.

Even if he turns out be a weird savant who's been kept completely in the dark when it comes to the shady stuff, he still benefitted heavily from it.

That doesn't mean that he's not one of the greatest managers in history. But the greatest? Nah.. Too many question marks.
 
Andersonson said:
Dynamo Tiblisi won a year or two before Aberdeen. There has been some very obscure winners of the cup winners cup. Still a massive thing, but it wasn't the champions league
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It's the league titles. He won three times in a Glasgow dominated league, nobody other than Rangers or Celtic have won it since he left
 
TheGame said:
Oh feck off.

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Wankers not even the the most bitter blue can surely compare what guardiola has done with what sir Matt done if not for the tragedy at Munich United would probably have dominated the league for years and could have won their first European cup
 
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He is the best manager of all time and that is painful to admit. He has changed a whole era of football and I mean how the game is played.

His adaptability to the physical demands of the league demonstrates his brilliance.
Had a poor first season getting used to the league and since then he has built a winning machine.

In the time he has been at city we have spent a comparable amount on players and wages* but not come close to competing.

Sir Alex Ferguson nor Mourinho were simply not this dominant nor capable of playing this way.
We just have to find a way to get rid of him from this league and make it competitive again
 
Rinus Michels is probably still the greatest coach of all time. He was winning titles everywhere he went with small clubs a time and changed the game as we know it.

He created the greatest side never to win a World Cup only losing in the final to Germany. He also went on to win the European championships with the same side of his small-ish country built on the philosophy he created. Legend.

He setup Ajax as a club to win multiple European cups and made a nation respected on the world stage from nowhere really. It’s hard to beat that kind of legacy.

Certainly did more good for the sport than Pep ever has. Pep’s tactics have made the game a worse sport Michels improved massively on what came before with total football.

I think he edges Fergie despite less trophies overall due to his ability as a coach and was an all time great manager international football wise.

Pep doesn’t have this kind of CV yet. The idea of him dominating a World Cup as manager with players he created is almost unrepeatable.

Fergie and Michels seemingly created structures themselves. City’s success now is very much the same people at Barcelona who City hired long before Pep arrived.

He was the final piece of the jigsaw so had it easier than any manager in history to create success. Granted respects need to be given to the club for doing that method.
 
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E-mal said:
He is the best manager of all time and that is painful to admit. He has changed a whole era of football and I mean how the game is played.

His adaptability to the physical demands of the league demonstrates his brilliance.
Had a poor first season getting used to the league and since then he has built a winning machine.

In the time he has been at city we have spent a comparable amount on players and wages* but not come close to competing.

Sir Alex Ferguson nor Mourinho were simply not this dominant nor capable of playing this way.
We just have to find a way to get rid of him from this league and make it competitive again
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He has changed a whole era of football all right, but not in the sense you mean it.

Strange to say Fergie wasn't as dominant too.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
Shameful tweet. Can't believe they haven't taken it down yet, especially when you consider that they have an association with United.
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Calm down, it's not even close to shameful. Busby is the most famous manager with 5 league titles so they used him, if Pep wins another one it'll be Paisley in the tweet because he has 6 titles.
 
kaiser1 said:
Is this still a legit question?

Best manager in EPL history
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Winning titles in Spain coaching 3 of the 20 greatest football players of all time.

Winning titles in one-team league in Germany coaching the only team that matters in Germany.

Winning titles in England coaching the most financially-endowed team in the history of football.

Let me know which of the 20 greatest managers ever would not have been able to achieve what he has if they had the resources and the talent that he has had? A few of them would have achieved even more.

He will never be the best manager of all time or in PL history. Not even top 3. No manager has had as little resistance to success as Pep has. He has never faced real adversity because he's always had access to the very best or the resources to get the very best.
 
Real Name said:
He has changed a whole era of football all right, but not in the sense you mean it.

Strange to say Fergie wasn't as dominant too.
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Well he has changed the way football is played and many managers have tried to copy or adapted from how he plays. He has also adapted his style of play over the last 20 years.
I can't remember us under Fergie dominating play as much as Pep's team do but their is always a caveat to that.
Fergie also won trophies but you had the sense other teams had a bit of hope against us and we had teams like Blackburn, Arsenal, Chelsea and City under a different manager being able to touch us here and there.
This has been a crushing display from city bar one season from Klopp
 
Pep is a great manager but has managed prime-rib Barca, Bayern in a one-horse race and Abu Dhabi's sophisticated cheat machine.

Could he manage the likes of Aberdeen to European glory? Villa to top four? United to seventh? Jury's out.

Furthermore, anyone who displays solidarity with democracy only to manage an undemocratic regime's football franchise for hundreds of thousands a week is, well, untrustworthy. To say the least.

Great coach, but nothing from the bottom up to suggest he's at the top.
 
E-mal said:
Well he has changed the way football is played and many managers have tried to copy or adapted from how he plays. He has also adapted his style of play over the last 20 years.
I can't remember us under Fergie dominating play as much as Pep's team do but their is always a caveat to that.
Fergie also won trophies but you had the sense other teams had a bit of hope against us and we had teams like Blackburn, Arsenal, Chelsea and City under a different manager being able to touch us here and there.
This has been a crushing display from city bar one season from Klopp
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They needed a comeback to win 2 seasons ago and arsenal did absolutely touch this season around, it was a close race.
 
Dannn411 said:
Winning titles in Spain coaching 3 of the 20 greatest football players of all time.

Winning titles in one-team league in Germany coaching the only team that matters in Germany.

Winning titles in England coaching the most financially-endowed team in the history of football.

He will never be the best manager of all time or in PL history. Not even top 3. No manager has had as little resistance to success as Pep has. He has never faced real adversity because he's always had access to the very best or the resources to get the very best.
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Delusional or hate post? He is the best in the context of how dominant his teams play and how many trophies he has amassed in the last 20 years.
The financial endowment you speak of, us united have no right to speak about this as we spent as much on player recruitment and close in wages* with nothing but a top 4 yoyo club.
Ancellotti also managed the best teams in their leagues or Europe, Mourinho is the famous cheque book manager and Fergie had a financial advantage over the rest of the league until Mourinho and Abrahimovic came along.
3 of the greatest football players ever? Two of those players were not regulars in the first team when he came and Xavi was contemplating leaving Barcelona because of the hard time he was having.
He literally made that team.
Had a defence of Puyol and Pique(united reject)
Gave debuts to Busquets and Pedro, faced out Ronaldinho, Deco and Etoo, their three best players are the time he arrived.
Selective memory from you mate

I am just tired of the cnut and I wish he leaves but even when he does we are not placed to benefit from it
 
E-mal said:
Well he has changed the way football is played and many managers have tried to copy or adapted from how he plays. He has also adapted his style of play over the last 20 years.
I can't remember us under Fergie dominating play as much as Pep's team do but their is always a caveat to that.
Fergie also won trophies but you had the sense other teams had a bit of hope against us and we had teams like Blackburn, Arsenal, Chelsea and City under a different manager being able to touch us here and there.
This has been a crushing display from city bar one season from Klopp
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It’s a bit more than a caveat
 
Dannn411 said:
Winning titles in Spain coaching 3 of the 20 greatest football players of all time.

Winning titles in one-team league in Germany coaching the only team that matters in Germany.

Winning titles in England coaching the most financially-endowed team in the history of football.

Let me know which of the 20 greatest managers ever would not have been able to achieve what he has if they had the resources and the talent that he has had? A few of them would have achieved even more.

He will never be the best manager of all time or in PL history. Not even top 3. No manager has had as little resistance to success as Pep has. He has never faced real adversity because he's always had access to the very best or the resources to get the very best.
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Adding to this.

Winning titles in Spain while your club were bribing officials for favourable refereeing decisions.

Winning titles in England while your club is riddled with over a decade of corruption, financial doping and money laundering.

Removing those two, the only 'untainted' success in Pep's career (playing career also tainted with regular PED usage) is the Bayern stint.
 
E-mal said:
Delusional or hate post? He is the best in the context of how dominant his teams play and how many trophies he has amassed in the last 20 years.
The financial endowment you speak of, us united have no right to speak about this as we spent as much on player recruitment and close in wages* with nothing but a top 4 yoyo club.
Ancellotti also managed the best teams in their leagues or Europe, Mourinho is the famous cheque book manager and Fergie had a financial advantage over the rest of the league until Mourinho and Abrahimovic came along.
3 of the greatest football players ever? Two of those players were not regulars in the first team when he came and Xavi was contemplating leaving Barcelona because of the hard time he was having.
He literally made that team.
Had a defence of Puyol and Pique(united reject)
Gave debuts to Busquets and Pedro, faced out Ronaldinho, Deco and Etoo, their three best players are the time he arrived.
Selective memory from you mate

I am just tired of the cnut and I wish he leaves but even when he does we are not placed to benefit from it
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This has been disproven so many times on these forums it's embarrassing for a United fan to repeat opposition lies as fact.
 
E-mal said:
Well he has changed the way football is played and many managers have tried to copy or adapted from how he plays. He has also adapted his style of play over the last 20 years.
I can't remember us under Fergie dominating play as much as Pep's team do but their is always a caveat to that.
Fergie also won trophies but you had the sense other teams had a bit of hope against us and we had teams like Blackburn, Arsenal, Chelsea and City under a different manager being able to touch us here and there.
This has been a crushing display from city bar one season from Klopp
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Understatement of the year. :lol:
Yet they touched us here and there yet Fergie won some trophies. 13 league title to be exact.

E-mal said:
Delusional or hate post? He is the best in the context of how dominant his teams play and how many trophies he has amassed in the last 20 years.
The financial endowment you speak of, us united have no right to speak about this as we spent as much on player recruitment and close in wages* with nothing but a top 4 yoyo club.
Ancellotti also managed the best teams in their leagues or Europe, Mourinho is the famous cheque book manager and Fergie had a financial advantage over the rest of the league until Mourinho and Abrahimovic came along.
3 of the greatest football players ever? Two of those players were not regulars in the first team when he came and Xavi was contemplating leaving Barcelona because of the hard time he was having.
He literally made that team.
Had a defence of Puyol and Pique(united reject)
Gave debuts to Busquets and Pedro, faced out Ronaldinho, Deco and Etoo, their three best players are the time he arrived.
Selective memory from you mate

I am just tired of the cnut and I wish he leaves but even when he does we are not placed to benefit from it
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What about 115 charges?
 
E-mal said:
In the time he has been at city we have spent a comparable amount on players and wages* but not come close to competing.

Sir Alex Ferguson nor Mourinho were simply not this dominant nor capable of playing this way.
We just have to find a way to get rid of him from this league and make it competitive again
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As much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree.
And we also have to thank him for still being no1 in PL titles, without him, we wouldn't have been.
 
He’s not. Great manager but not the greatest considering he’s always been at teams that can dominate the rest of the league financially. And he’s always had controversy follow him (refs at Barca, charges at City). He’s very dodgy.
 
E-mal said:
Delusional or hate post? He is the best in the context of how dominant his teams play and how many trophies he has amassed in the last 20 years.
The financial endowment you speak of, us united have no right to speak about this as we spent as much on player recruitment and close in wages* with nothing but a top 4 yoyo club.
Ancellotti also managed the best teams in their leagues or Europe, Mourinho is the famous cheque book manager and Fergie had a financial advantage over the rest of the league until Mourinho and Abrahimovic came along.
3 of the greatest football players ever? Two of those players were not regulars in the first team when he came and Xavi was contemplating leaving Barcelona because of the hard time he was having.
He literally made that team.
Had a defence of Puyol and Pique(united reject)
Gave debuts to Busquets and Pedro, faced out Ronaldinho, Deco and Etoo, their three best players are the time he arrived.
Selective memory from you mate

I am just tired of the cnut and I wish he leaves but even when he does we are not placed to benefit from it
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The only decent job he has ever done has been at Barcelona where I will admit that he built that team in his own image and he was well on his way to being the greatest ever. But then he ran at the first sign of adversity (Losing the title to Real Madrid) and Enrique who came after him won a treble of his own with the same core.

Nothing he has done at Bayern or City has been remotely impressive. So i'm not even going to get into it.

You mentioning Ancelotti and Jose only serves to prove my point. If you give a legendary manager resources (ANY of the 20 greatest ever) they will dominate and win several titles. Ancelotti has titles in each of the big 5 leagues and has 4 CLs too. Why isn't he mentioned as the GOAT? Jose has titles in Spain, Portugal, England, Italy plus a treble and 2 CLs so he should be the greatest no? Why mention chequebook management for Jose but not for Pep who has been by far the biggest beneficiary of the chequebook in history?

What separates the best of the best from the rest is their ability to build, tear down and rebuild while facing adversity and limitations. Pep has never had to deal with limitations at any club he has ever been at and he is yet to demonstrate that he can build a legendary team with limited resources. Fergie built 3 of them across two decades with two teams who won 3 straight titles ten years apart.

Fergie having a financial advantage is laughable. The only truly big money names I can think of from Fergie's great teams are Rio, Rooney and Andy Cole. The rest were either bought for cut ir resonable prices or were academy prospects. If you want a better example of a team winning a title on artificially created financial advantage then look to Jack Walker and Blackburn and Roman's Chelsea.

In the 90s, the Serie A and La Liga were the top 2 leagues in Europe and they attracted the top talent. Fergie couldn't get any globally renowned name to join United for that reason and it hurt us in Europe till the late 90s. If there was any financial advantage, that advantage was created from the prize money United got from winning titles at the start of the PL era (on the strength of Fergie's greatness). Nothing else.
 
Garnacho's Shoelaces said:
Removing those two, the only 'untainted' success in Pep's career (playing career also tainted with regular PED usage) is the Bayern stint.
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But that wasn't really successful. He took over a team that reached three CL finals in the four years before he arrived, had won a treble in the season before and didn't even reach a CL final. Nor did he break meaningful records in the BL, he essentially only got the "earliest title win", but that was much more due to Dortmund's decline than due to Bayern's results. He just maintained them on a high level, nothing more.
 
He should go to Kilmarnock and win the Scottish Premier league then I'll rate him. He probably is the best ever but feck him and feck City
 
Freak said:
He’s not. Great manager but not the greatest considering he’s always been at teams that can dominate the rest of the league financially. And he’s always had controversy follow him (refs at Barca, charges at City). He’s very dodgy.
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Don't forget the PEDs.
 
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