Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

kaiser1 said:
Same argument can be made about Xavi in 2008. I don't recall him being better than others in the tournament. As with Spain in their glory years, no single player stood out, it was more of a collective effort. Maybe Marcus Senna was more influential. I thought Ballack was more influential than Xavi in the tournament

But if you are arguing that Pep got the best player of Euro 2008 in Xavi because he got an award then you should respect the same award given to Zagorakis too 4yrs earlier by the same body
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Well, the award committee chose him as key player from this collective, if I compare the press reviews, he's mentioned there as well. My argument was that his talent wasn't much of a secret. And I fail to see how Zagorakis invalidates that, as Greece's win was not seen as dominant and deserved.
 
HisNameIsEarl said:
Well, the award committee chose him as key player from this collective, if I compare the press reviews, he's mentioned there as well. My argument was that his talent wasn't much of a secret. And I fail to see how Zagorakis invalidates that, as Greece's win was not seen as dominant and deserved.
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For those Spain wins in 2008, 2010 and 2012, there was hardly any standout player. You could have picked any of Puyol Xavi Iniesta, Busquets Senna(2008), Villa(2010) in any of those years without an argument
In 2004, Greece defeated
Portugal the host twice
France the defending champions
Czech the team of the Tournament
in 6 games
None of these games went into a shootout. So how was this not deserved
 
kaiser1 said:
For those Spain wins in 2008, 2010 and 2012, there was hardly any standout player. You could have picked any of Puyol Xavi Iniesta, Busquets Senna(2008), Villa(2010) in any of those years without an argument
In 2004, Greece defeated
Portugal the host twice
France the defending champions
Czech the team of the Tournament
in 6 games
None of these games went into a shootout. So how was this not deserved
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I was referring to what others picked at that time, it doesn't matter what I could have picked.

And about Greece: the term "deserved" can indeed be misleading there, what I wanted to express was, "if the tournament was repeated, would they be expected to win again?"
 
Is this still a legit question?

Best manager in EPL history
 
I'd say on balance he is up there, but probably slighly off top-spot because of circumstances but he has probably done enough now to be pretty much nailed down as the greatest when future generations talks about him considering they are likely to be even more hung up on the stats than we are. Maybe Ancelotti has made a decent case for himself in that regard as well with his multiple CL's and tour around europe.

Greatness stands better on its own rather than in comparision with others anyway.
 
kaiser1 said:
Is this still a legit question?

Best manager in EPL history
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If Fergie also managed a team with 115 charges then maybe this would be more of a debate.

If we're comparing his Barca and Bayern tenures to Fergie's United, then one factor that sways it for me is that Fergie left his club as a league winner and ended his career on his own terms. Whereas Pep left Barca after finishing 2nd and felt like he needed a sabbatical to re-energise himself. Fergie was more resilient and didn't cower when Mourinho finished above him.
 
Gabriel Djemba-Bebe said:
If Fergie also managed a team with 115 charges then maybe this would be more of a debate.

If we're comparing his Barca and Bayern tenures to Fergie's United, then one factor that sways it for me is that Fergie left his club as a league winner and ended his career on his own terms. Whereas Pep left Barca after finishing 2nd and felt like he needed a sabbatical to re-energise himself. Fergie was more resilient and didn't cower when Mourinho finished above him.
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Anyone would need a sabbatical after what Mourinho pulled at Madrid. Having a world class rival manager obsessed with beating you out of a personal vendetta is not a common situation.
 
Is he the best manger in history? Is he feck! He’s never had a disadvantage, and at all three of his clubs there have been scandals (credible accusations of cheating at Barcelona and Manchester City). He’s not fit to lace Ferguson’s shoes. Guardiola is at the very best the fifth best manager in English club football history, behind Alex Ferguson, Matt Busby, Bill Shankly, and Bob Paisley in that order. In English football history overall, including the England national team, Alf Ramsey is also ahead of Guardiola, because I’d argue that England winning the World Cup is way more impressive than anything “Pep” has ever done. And this is all coming from a Scotsman.
 
I will never consider Guardiola as the best ever and I will not respect or count all these titles no matter what happens with the 115 charges (probably nothing happens cause hush hush)
 
erikcred said:
Anyone would need a sabbatical after what Mourinho pulled at Madrid. Having a world class rival manager obsessed with beating you out of a personal vendetta is not a common situation.
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I'm pretty sure Fergie could handle a bit of personal beef from a rival manager. He certainly wouldn't need a sabbatical after finishing 2nd. That would only make him more determined to come back stronger the next season.
 
Him or Fergie. Arguments for both but Pep changed football, the whole modern game is down to him. That Barca team will never be forgotten.
 
I've seen some people saying that he's just the best at making the best squad dominant. It's with the best tools that you can make the best work, right? Then the one who is the best at manipulating the best tools is not the best?

You're obviously free to disagree with that premise; it's just that I've seen this being pointed out very often(not only here).
 
In the English game alone, it's still hard to put anyone ahead of Fergie. His consistency and how many teams he regenerated plus the starting point from which he took over makes his legacy uniquely remarkable. Pep has on his side the influence and impact he brought to the English game. When he made that comment in his first season about he is not a manager for the tackles and we had the English pundits rejoicing about how they were right all along and that his brand of football wouldn't translate to the PL, little did anyone expect that few years later, so many will be copying him.

Pep and Sir Alex stand in the mount rushmore of the English game, Sir Alex is the godfather and will remain so. Below them in the PL area, Wenger, Mourinho and Klopp are legendary figures who just come up short in one area or another.
 
He could be if SAF was decided to work on the docks.
 
devaneios said:
I've seen some people saying that he's just the best at making the best squad dominant. It's with the best tools that you can make the best work, right? Then the one who is the best at manipulating the best tools is not the best?

You're obviously free to disagree with that premise; it's just that I've seen this being pointed out very often(not only here).
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You are right. People make it sound like it's easy to manage a team that is expected to win and is supposed to win every year. The credit always seems to go the one who punches above their weight. In reality, it takes a special skill to drive the fastest car and deliver the win. Fergie was the same, he built a team that everyone wanted to beat, winning was expected year in year out. The motivation and drive that takes to do it again and again year after year is a unique skill. There are lot of managers who can succeed at getting a team to punch above its weight and achieve more than what they should, but put them somewhere like Bayern, Real, Barcelona or the United teams of old, and they would crumble under the weight of not having an excuse to fail. That is why no one last long enough at teams that don't accept second except that very very elite like Sir Alex managed and like Pep is doing right now.
 
Don't know if he is the best of all time but he will be remembered in large as the best.
 
Nogbadthebad said:
What Ferguson acheived with Aberdeen is far beyond anything any current manager has achieved.

Or ever will.
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Dynamo Tiblisi won a year or two before Aberdeen. There has been some very obscure winners of the cup winners cup. Still a massive thing, but it wasn't the champions league
 
Cheaty and Guardiola are ruining the PL. They aren‘t playing by the same rules.

His legacy is ruined.
 
He's brilliant yes, but he also needs the absolute right set up behind him to win.
Ferguson spent the last decade of his reign working for the Glazers, look at what has happened to every other manager under them. He still delivered 5 titles and a Champions League playing under the most incompetent owners in the league.
That, plus his achievement at Aberdeen, rebuilding 3 great United teams and dealing with the massive change in British football from the early 90's to the 00's when previous good managers like Graham, Dalgleish, Wilkinson etc looked like dinosaurs, and being able to take on and beat Roman's Chelsea all still point to him being the master.
 
kaiser1 said:
Is this still a legit question?

Best manager in EPL history
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Nah. Ferguson is the best PL manager of all time. Wenger is arguably above Pep too.

Pep was parachuted into a club that had almost everything he needed, and gave him around £200m of new players. He’s bought £1b of players since taking the job.

Wenger did far more, with far less.

Pep has without question been a bigger influence on football than Wenger, but not the Premier League.
 
erikcred said:
Anyone would need a sabbatical after what Mourinho pulled at Madrid. Having a world class rival manager obsessed with beating you out of a personal vendetta is not a common situation.
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We needed that. Instead we got the Klopp loser.
 
Stack said:
There is no single best of all time.
Too many eras and too many managers to choose one above all else
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Absolutely true, but where's the fun in acknowledging that stone cold fact? It's far too sensible an approach.

I don't know if Pep's the best manager ever. I don't even know know if he's the best manager around now, there's an Italian guy in Madrid who's pretty good.

I know that Pep's Barca team is the best side I've ever seen, but that could be a lot to do with the players, some of whom he inherited.

Basically, all you can do is ensure that the GOAT discussion cannot be had without your name being brought up. I think he's there now. Beyond that, there are too many variables, as you say.
 
Really depends on what it means for someone to be the greatest manager of all time. It's subjective.

I think in certain aspects, he is. He's probably the biggest tactical pioneer since Cruyff, and like 80% of elite managers are just copying him in one way or another. That matters a lot, whether you like it or not.

However, despite his genius, and the quality of players he's had at his disposal, there are asterisks next to the honors he won at both Barca and City...Negreira case + City's financial doping...it also really bothers me that he had no problems joining a sportswashing project created by such a state that Abu Dhabi is. Just totally wrong morally.




Not enough people care about this, or Newcastle, or PSG, or how one of Putin's oligarchs was allowed to buy Chelsea over 20 years ago.
 
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When the current generation of supporters and critics all die, and their sons and daughters all die, and there are only anecdotal stories, historical records, and youtube clips to gauge how good players or managers were, Pep will stand tall as the greatest ever. His numbers are frigging unreal, 115 or whatever, unless of course, some of the titles are taken away.
 
Also the fact that he's far from finished his career. He's only 53.
They are the overwhelming favourites to win next season's PL, and the joint favourites to win the CL alongside Real.
 
Andersonson said:
Dynamo Tiblisi won a year or two before Aberdeen. There has been some very obscure winners of the cup winners cup. Still a massive thing, but it wasn't the champions league
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I don't see why this would somehow downplay Aberdeen's win. Tbilisi was a good team at the time with some excellent players. watch the previous season European Cup games against Liverpool and Hamburg, they were one of the stronger teams in the competition that year, just not pragmatic enough defensively and with a mediocre keeper. Half of the side were ussr internationals.

The Cup winners cup wasn't as consistent in quality as the other two competitions, but it was often strong in its own right by the later stages. Look at the European Super Cup games (which were a bigger deal back then) between the two, you can see the winners are quite equal between the champions of both tournaments.

Theonas said:
You are right. People make it sound like it's easy to manage a team that is expected to win and is supposed to win every year. The credit always seems to go the one who punches above their weight. In reality, it takes a special skill to drive the fastest car and deliver the win. Fergie was the same, he built a team that everyone wanted to beat, winning was expected year in year out. The motivation and drive that takes to do it again and again year after year is a unique skill. There are lot of managers who can succeed at getting a team to punch above its weight and achieve more than what they should, but put them somewhere like Bayern, Real, Barcelona or the United teams of old, and they would crumble under the weight of not having an excuse to fail. That is why no one last long enough at teams that don't accept second except that very very elite like Sir Alex managed and like Pep is doing right now.
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Most of the recognised greats did it at big clubs, there's no credit being taken away...it's almost a prerequisite over the last few decades to get any lasting legacy. If anything it tends to be the opposite, and the managers/players that got smaller teams to have a golden era get downplayed far more regularly, sometimes excessively so.
 
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