Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[kaiser1]

Pep has been favourite for the champions league 6 years in a row and only managed to win it this year, he's been favourite for every title he won at city and every title he won at Bayern, and he was favourite for every title at Barca except the first year, but knowing what we know now abiut Messi xavi and iniesta he should have been favourite. I'd maybe give it that he shouldn't have been fsviurritr for the champions league in 08/09 but certainly thr league. But I guess that's counteracted by being favourite every year at city and getting knocked iut by spurs, liverpool, lyon, Chelsea and Madrid.

Since you base everything om whether you were favourites, how does him being favourite for every trophy in his career apart from the first 3 impact yiurr thinking

In which world has Pep been favorite for the CL 6yrs in a row? BBC and Madrid were there, Barcelona has Messi Iniesta and Suarez, PSG had Neymar and Mbappe, Bayern had Lewandowski and Robbery, but somehow City without any player who has won the CL are the favorite? None of Aguero Silva KdB who are Citys best player have ever won the CL. If they are bookies favorite then its because of Pep

This is an example of an article written in July 2017 about the favourites for the 2017/18 CL. You can search for odds taken before the start of each season
https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/n...n-early-look-at-the-2017-18-champions-league/ and City was 5th

2020/21
https://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/perfect-bayern-favourites-to-retain-title/183535
2021/22
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...pert-reveals-picks-to-win-long-shots-to-back/

 

[kaiser1]

Probably becuase the effects of their 300m spend that summer became apparent and because pep had them playing well. Again I'm not saying he isn't a great manager, but getting the most expensively assembled squad ever to play well isnt a GOAT level achievement. For me, every other manager in that conversation has won agaisnt the odds. Thats why, as great as the threepeat was, Zidane isn't in that conversation for me either. It takes skill to win with the best players, but it's easier than winning agaisnt the odds. You'll see average managers who can win stuff with that Barca, that bayern or this city squad. You won't find any average managers who can do what klopp has done at Liverpool or simeone at atletico

Conte and Chelsea spent 300M on the EPL winners, How many bookies had them as favourites to win the CL after that?
Man Utd has spent how much? How many bookies have them as favourites for next season

 

[Joel Miller]

Obviously you were talking about their views on pep, if you try reading my post the next time you'd get that the point is you can't say these people are infallible compared to Internet posters on pep, but that you know better than they do on ronaldo. Either professionals are infallible or they aren't. I don't think apart from the 08 season (and potentially the season before it) that fergie ever had the most expensive side in Europe or even a team you'd expect him to win with. I wasn't watching in 99, but I doubt we were heavy favourites that season.

Again maybe the best minds know more, but rio ferdinand said we should give ole any amount of money to sign and I disagreed with that. It's a very lazy argument to say, professionals say this and they know more so yiu can't have a different opinion when you have opinions on football that differ from these same professionals.

Again, about half of your posts over the last two years have been running down ronaldo, it's actually quite odd, I didnt expect so much obsession, the rest are praising messi, pep and city players and hardly any about united, so you seem to have an extreme bias yourself.

I haven't said pep is poor or even average, I've said he hasn't done anything as impressive as klopp or simeone, he's done a very good job at city, but nowhere near enough for GOAT for me

Again a whole load of nothing. Anyway seeing as you’re seemingly old enough to remember 99 I think that’s maybe part of the problem. And regarding Pep, we’re not talking about one or two people, we’re talking about the vast majority of people connected with the sport. But you probably think you’re still right and they’ve all got it wrong. They’ve got their lines crossed, some guy on a forum who admits he has a bee in his bonnet about Pep and anyone connected with Barca, well he knows something we don’t.

Lastly, I don’t know why you’re trawling my posts because a quick look back through your’s suggests this subject is absolutely dominating your life at the moment, it does look rather obsessive. By the way, I don’t like Ronaldo, you’ve figured that out, congratulations. Not that it’s ever been a secret. I’m not saying Guardiola is the greatest, but for what he’s done and his huge influence on the game in general, he’s surely in the conversation to most level headed people without an agenda.

 

[kaiser1]

Obviously you were talking about their views on pep, if you try reading my post the next time you'd get that the point is you can't say these people are infallible compared to Internet posters on pep, but that you know better than they do on ronaldo. Either professionals are infallible or they aren't. I don't think apart from the 08 season (and potentially the season before it) that fergie ever had the most expensive side in Europe or even a team you'd expect him to win with. I wasn't watching in 99, but I doubt we were heavy favourites that season.

Again maybe the best minds know more, but rio ferdinand said we should give ole any amount of money to sign and I disagreed with that. It's a very lazy argument to say, professionals say this and they know more so yiu can't have a different opinion when you have opinions on football that differ from these same professionals.

Again, about half of your posts over the last two years have been running down ronaldo, it's actually quite odd, I didnt expect so much obsession, the rest are praising messi, pep and city players and hardly any about united, so you seem to have an extreme bias yourself.

I haven't said pep is poor or even average, I've said he hasn't done anything as impressive as klopp or simeone, he's done a very good job at city, but nowhere near enough for GOAT for me

Klopp is allowed to have 1 League title and 1 CL in 8seasons to be a GOAT sometimes even finishing outside top 4 and being uncompetitive in the league some seasons finish 7th or 8th
Simeone is allowed to have 2 league titles and 0 CL in over 10 seasons to be a GOAT sometimes finishing last in CL groups of Leverkusen, Brugge and Porto(this season)
But Pep 10 league and 3 CL in 13yrs is not enough to be the GOAT despite being competitive every season never below 3rd, never crashing out of CL groups

Despite many top coaches, football team owners will pick Pep over any coach alive

 

[GatoLoco]

And in the 7 years that has gone by since Pep left they've won once, eliminated once in the semis, 4 times in the quarters and one time in the 1/8th, so it's not like they've had consistently great results since he left either.

Also, saying that Real Madrid (or Bayern for that matter) had a bad year (especially not in Europe) this season is stretching it. Real had won all their knockout games, and Bayern had won all their games in Europe this season (including two against Barcelona, Inter and PSG). Both these teams were very good in Europe this year. If Real had beaten City and gone on to win the CL it would have been business as usual for them, winning CL and the Copa Del Rey.


Ever stopped to think why that is? For example, at the start of the 17/18 season City wasn't the favorites to win the Champions League (which is pretty reasonable, given the players both Barca and Real had at the time, as well as Bayern and PSG). It was only when his team went on a historic run in the PL his team went up to be the favorites in the CL. Do you think this was because everyone just suddenly realized that City had world class players in every single position and another 10 world class players on the bench, or do you think it had something to do with Pep having them play at a performance level that just hadn't been seen in the Premier League before that?

Both clubs are going through a transition process.

Hebert Hainer said days ago Bayern were planning to spend a lot of money this summer which is something they had barely done until this point. They also got 71 points in the Bundesliga which is the least amount in their 13 last seasons! (you can check it here https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/table) and it can be said Dortmund pretty much gave the trophy away the last game vs Mainz 05.

Real faced very under par Liverpool and Chelsea sides in Europe and were abysmal in the league especially since the beginning of 2023. This didn't come as a surprise to me for three reasons. The first one is that it's very typical from Ancelotti to underperform in his second year at pretty much every club. The second one was due to a bit of full belly effect. The third one I warned it in a post in Red Cafe before the season started when I said Real Madrid would very likely have to deal with both Benzema and Modric's decline at the same time in a year with a World Cup in it given their age and that this would contrast to a focused Barcelona activating levers in order to avoid the "Milan effect" which consists of a top club going into bad dynamics for a way too lengthy period.

 

[kaiser1]

Both clubs are going through a transition process.

Hebert Hainer said days ago Bayern were planning to spend a lot of money this summer which is something they had barely done until this point. They also got 71 points in the Bundesliga which is the least amount in their 13 last seasons! (you can check it here https://www.bundesliga.com/en/bundesliga/table) and it can be said Dortmund pretty much gave the trophy away the last game vs Mainz 05.

Real faced very under par Liverpool and Chelsea sides in Europe and were abysmal in the league especially since the beginning of 2023. This didn't come as a surprise to me for three reasons. The first one is that it's very typical from Ancelotti's to underperform in his second year at pretty much every club. The second one was due to a bit of full belly effect. The third one I warned it in a post in Red Cafe before the season started when I said Real Madrid would very likely have to deal with both Benzema and Modric's decline at the same time in a year with a World Cup in it given their age and that this would contrast to a focused Barcelona activating levers in order to avoid the "Milan effect" which consists of a top club going into bad dynamics for a way too lengthy period.

Bayern might be underpeforming in the league but had a 100% winning record in the CL beating La Liga champions (Barca home and away) Ligue 1 champ (PSG home and away), CL finalist Inter Milan home and away until they met City

 

[jm99]

Again a whole load of nothing. Anyway seeing as you’re seemingly old enough to remember 99 I think that’s maybe part of the problem. And regarding Pep, we’re not talking about one or two people, we’re talking about the vast majority of people connected with the sport. But you probably think you’re still right and they’ve all got it wrong. They’ve got their lines crossed, some guy on a forum who admits he has a bee in his bonnet about Pep and anyone connected with Barca, well he knows something we don’t.

Lastly, I don’t know why you’re trawling my posts because a quick look back through your’s suggests this subject is absolutely dominating your life at the moment, it does look rather obsessive. By the way, I don’t like Ronaldo, you’ve figured that out, congratulations. Not that it’s ever been a secret. I’m not saying Guardiola is the greatest, but for what he’s done and his huge influence on the game in general, he’s surely in the conversation to most level headed people without an agenda.

I'm replying to people quoting me, you basically post only about Ronaldo, unprompted, which is obsessive.

What's the point in having a discussion forum if you're just going to say this is what pros think? Most professionals said Ronaldo did a good job at United in 20/21 meanwhile you were criticising him constantly. So again, you've shown you have no issue disagreeing with the experts when it suits you, but whe it doesn't we should all listen to what the pros say and nothing else. He's in the conversation for the best manager working right now, for most people probably top 2 with klopp, he's obviously better than current mourinho but I would argue that mourinho from 2003-2012 was better, but obviously his career is tainted by the bad stuff. And simeone is obviously very underrated for people who didn't watch la liga, but they're definitely the top 3 right now, simeone, klopp and guardiola. For me guardiola hasn't faced the same kind of challengethe other 2 have so he's 3rd. Being the 3rd best manager in the world isn't a slight, its not an agenda. Personally if after City he goes somewhere more challenging and is successful (juventus or Milan or inter, and not psg with limitless funds) then he'll be at the top of the current list and only behind fergie for all time.

So again none of that is an agenda, an agenda is what you have with Ronaldo where abiut half your posts over the last two years have been criticising the guy, saying pep is the third best manager in the world behind two guys who have basically worked miracles at their respective clubs, is not evidence of an agenda

 

[GatoLoco]

Bayern might be underpeforming in the league but had a 100% winning record in the CL beating La Liga champions (Barca home and away) Ligue 1 champ (PSG home and away), CL finalist Inter Milan home and away until they met City

Again a parallelism with Real Madrid in the sense that the performances deteriorated after the World Cup (see Kahn's and Salihamidžic's words regarding the topic). Most of the games you mentioned took place before the World Cup.

 

[jm99]

Klopp is allowed to have 1 League title and 1 CL in 8seasons to be a GOAT sometimes even finishing outside top 4 and being uncompetitive in the league some seasons finish 7th or 8th
Simeone is allowed to have 2 league titles and 0 CL in over 10 seasons to be a GOAT sometimes finishing last in CL groups of Leverkusen, Brugge and Porto(this season)
But Pep 10 league and 3 CL in 13yrs is not enough to be the GOAT despite being competitive every season never below 3rd, never crashing out of CL groups

Despite many top coaches, football team owners will pick Pep over any coach alive

Yes because of context, if simeone had managed peak Barca, bayern and city and had the same record he does now I'd consider him a joke. 2 league titles in Spain, one of which was against close to peak Messi Barca and peak real Ronaldo, is an outrageous achievement for an atletico manager. Had Klopp had the same resources as guardiola, then 1 league title in 8 years would be awful. But he lost 2 titles by a single point with far less resources. If you can't look at that context then there's not much more to say

 

[jm99]

In which world has Pep been favorite for the CL 6yrs in a row? BBC and Madrid were there, Barcelona has Messi Iniesta and Suarez, PSG had Neymar and Mbappe, Bayern had Lewandowski and Robbery, but somehow City without any player who has won the CL are the favorite? None of Aguero Silva KdB who are Citys best player have ever won the CL. If they are bookies favorite then its because of Pep

This is an example of an article written in July 2017 about the favourites for the 2017/18 CL. You can search for odds taken before the start of each season
https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/n...n-early-look-at-the-2017-18-champions-league/ and City was 5th

2020/21
https://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/perfect-bayern-favourites-to-retain-title/183535
2021/22
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/ne...pert-reveals-picks-to-win-long-shots-to-back/

7/2 and 4/1 is basically nothing in it, plus the UK odds were generally more favourable to city, and that's the ones I'd seen

 

[SirMonteyne]

The greatest manager is SAF, but the greatest coach is Pep. Post-Barca, I always thought his teams lacked clutch players to win CL, I believe he was stubborn. Real Madrid has won three CL titles in a row in the modern era for a reason. After attempting to get Ronaldo into his team, I knew he had changed. As long as Halaand can be clutch and fatal enough, his team will be unbeatable.

 

[kaiser1]

Yes because of context, if simeone had managed peak Barca, bayern and city and had the same record he does now I'd consider him a joke. 2 league titles in Spain, one of which was against close to peak Messi Barca and peak real Ronaldo, is an outrageous achievement for an atletico manager. Had Klopp had the same resources as guardiola, then 1 league title in 8 years would be awful. But he lost 2 titles by a single point with far less resources. If you can't look at that context then there's not much more to say

Klopp surely had more resources than most of the teams in Bundesliga when he finished 7th

Klopp just finished 5th behind Newcastle and Arsenal, that gets overlooked
In Klopps 8 seasons he has finished outside top 4, 3 times

 

[jm99]

Klopp surely had more resources than most of the teams in Bundesliga when he finished 7th

Klopp just finished 5th behind Newcastle and Arsenal, that gets overlooked
In Klopps 8 seasons he has finished outside top 4, 3 times

Yes youre right, thise are negatives, he does eventuakky burnout after 7 seasons at a club, which does tend to happen when you can't replace basically the entire first xi every few years and have a bench full of replacements basically just as good. Pep has done a great job totally revamping the first 11 and not losing much (though I'd say they arent quite as good as 18/19 anymore) but equally I don't think he could avoid it if working with the same resources as klopp. Maybe he could, but I don't see it happening. And tbf, the other 20/21 Liverpool had a genuinely unprecedented injury crisis, even pep at city would have struggled with the injuries they had.

I don't think klopp is infallible, his style of play clearly does burn players out after a couple of years, and the guy is the most whiny manager in the world, but going toe to toe with pep at city even just for 3 seasons out of the last 5, with such comparatively limited resources is for me a bigger achievement than winning with City's resources

 

[Fobal]

Impressive is founding Simeone 's career, style and results MORE impressive than Pep's one while being so objective and not having any sort of an agenda. Impressive indeed.

 

[Swoobs]

Impressive is founding Simeone 's career, style and results MORE impressive than Pep's one while being so objective and not having any sort of an agenda. Impressive indeed.

What is more impressive is trawling back at other’s post history and declaring the said poster obsessive as if it was some sort of argument, while not even looking at his own post history. Talk about self awareness and odd

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

The greatest manager is SAF, but the greatest coach is Pep. Post-Barca, I always thought his teams lacked clutch players to win CL, I believe he was stubborn. Real Madrid has won three CL titles in a row in the modern era for a reason. After attempting to get Ronaldo into his team, I knew he had changed. As long as Halaand can be clutch and fatal enough, his team will be unbeatable.

People say that but while there's a distinction in the description, it's really the same position (the manager position at a club), and people in that position need to have both man management skills and coaching abilities. When you excel at one, you can get away with being a little less than perfect in the other.

With Pep, he seems to be able to galvanise his teams after successes the same way Ferguson did, which is a big part of the reason City (Bayern before them, and ofcourse Barcelona) never rested on their laurels. 5 titles in 6 seasons and 3 consecutive speaks to that, and there's no reason to think they'll get complacent with him there.

 

[erikcred]

Who made that the sole authority for judging who the favourites should be? And of course the bookmakers prediction changes as time goes by with different predictions here and there. Whether it’s difficult or easy to win a trophy is not determined by perceptions as much as getting involved personally. While you argue that Pep has not had to build the way Klopp builds teams Klopp has not had the job of managing where instant success was required. I would have asked Pep to take the challenge but he has the trophies therefore the person to take up the challenge is Klopp if he fancies is because the grass is not always greener on the other side. Also the perception that maybe you are the favorite therefore you cannot afford to fault may have its added pressure. What about Klopp’s last season in BVB and the one we just finished, do they count too?

There's nothing to indicate that City would've fired Pep if he didn't win a single title in say, 3 years.

City didn't work for years to set up a whole support team comprised of Pep's Barcelona colleagues to then demand "instant success or get fired". The main reason behind hiring Pep was to eventually win the CL and they were happy to give him 7 years to do that.

Of course, this is how a club should be run (looking at you Woodward). But this idea of only Klopp being allowed to slowly build whereas Pep being in danger of the sack at City if he didn't win titles right away is not supported by any facts.

 

[Bearded One]

Yes youre right, thise are negatives, he does eventuakky burnout after 7 seasons at a club, which does tend to happen when you can't replace basically the entire first xi every few years and have a bench full of replacements basically just as good. Pep has done a great job totally revamping the first 11 and not losing much (though I'd say they arent quite as good as 18/19 anymore) but equally I don't think he could avoid it if working with the same resources as klopp. Maybe he could, but I don't see it happening. And tbf, the other 20/21 Liverpool had a genuinely unprecedented injury crisis, even pep at city would have struggled with the injuries they had.

I don't think klopp is infallible, his style of play clearly does burn players out after a couple of years, and the guy is the most whiny manager in the world, but going toe to toe with pep at city even just for 3 seasons out of the last 5, with such comparatively limited resources is for me a bigger achievement than winning with City's resources

The resources differ but so do the expectations. If it was a case of equal expectations I.e. if the Klopp teams are being required to win every competition they are involved in that would be a different case. If you spend big money on players and they flop, you cannot have a first team and a strong bench as a couple of teams in the league right now have shown us. Hell you can even spend money and get value which is less than what you previously got when you spent little and got the right formula for your team.

Mane, Salah and Firminho combo was terrific and tore the premier league a new one but there is no guarantee that spending the Nunez money would produce such a force. And that’s why my favorite quote on this thread has been “Football is not a linear model.” And this also means that there are different types of challenges that managers can have. The pressure that comes with “target is a quadruple but if you get less than a treble you have failed” when you have a handful of teams that can go toe-to-toe with you, is surely different from the expectations of “we are building, whatever happens this season we’ll take it from there the next one.” So beyond assuming that someone would deliver if so supported, we have to encourage them to take up those challenges which are a positive step in their career too rather than ask a manger to go back in time as it were. Players are asked to go to the clubs where their aspirations can match the available resources and then players in this bracket are tested at the highest levels yet when it comes to managers we want the reverse to be the case and It’s not like Klopp hasn’t had such offers before.

Your assessment towards Klopp teams will surely have sentimental takes such as “they had an injury laden season” (without minding that in his very dominant seasons they managed to keep their key players injury free sometimes players staying multiple seasons without getting injured).

 

[fergiewherearethou]

Of course, this is how a club should be run (looking at you Woodward). But this idea of only Klopp being allowed to slowly build whereas Pep being in danger of the sack at City if he didn't win titles right away is not supported by any facts.

Our managers have all been sacked when they've failed to qualify for the CL, I don't remember Pep finishing outside CL, if he did, surely he would of been in danger of the sack.

 

[Bearded One]

There's nothing to indicate that City would've fired Pep if he didn't win a single title in say, 3 years.

City didn't work for years to set up a whole support team comprised of Pep's Barcelona colleagues to then demand "instant success or get fired". The main reason behind hiring Pep was to eventually win the CL and they were happy to give him 7 years to do that.

Of course, this is how a club should be run (looking at you Woodward). But this idea of only Klopp being allowed to slowly build whereas Pep being in danger of the sack at City if he didn't win titles right away is not supported by any facts.

Going by their precedence, yes they would have sacked him because they have clearly very lofty expectations not only in playing style but titles. Yes they worked together before but you also forget that it’s a job meaning that the owners of the club make the call hence if they are doling hard currency without seeing success, they will set their hammer on the heads of the sporting director and his guy - forgotten their names ( I mean Pep’s lads) and if the sporting director gets the hammer Pep isn’t escaping that as well. Given that City has never won a champions league before and given that most managers have won it not more than twice in decades (their entire coaching careers), that time period isn’t too much of a challenge for them. It’s just common sense that expectations are higher where investments are being made.

 

[erikcred]

Going by their precedence, yes they would have sacked him because they have clearly very lofty expectations not only in playing style but titles. Yes they worked together before but you also forget that it’s a job meaning that the owners of the club make the call hence if they are doling hard currency without seeing success, they will set their hammer on the heads of the sporting director and his guy - forgotten their names ( I mean Pep’s lads) and if the sporting director gets the hammer Pep isn’t escaping that as well. Given that City has never won a champions league before and given that most managers have won it not more than twice in decades (their entire coaching careers), that time period isn’t too much of a challenge for them. It’s just common sense that expectations are higher where investments are being made.

I'm interested. What precedence? Mancini made the place toxic and Pellegrini was the preparation for Pep. Pep is the first manager they've pushed the boat out for and it's turned out to be an excellent call.

Are you telling me that if Pep kept finishing second in the league by a single point behind a 98-point Liverpool for the first three years, he would've been fired?

If yes, what's that based on other than "common sense"? Has anyone at the club said anything to that effect?

If no, then his job is under no more threat than Klopp's.

Our managers have all been sacked when they've failed to qualify for the CL, I don't remember Pep finishing outside CL, if he did, surely he would of been in danger of the sack.

The claim I was refuting was not that Pep is expected to finish top-4. It was that Pep's job is different from Klopp's at Liverpool because "instant success" was demanded. I assumed what the poster meant by "instant success" was trophies (and close second places wouldn't count). But I could be wrong. Maybe he was just referring to top-4, in which case it's a pretty dramatic phrase for a club that's already been in the top-4 consistently for years before Pep arrived.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Real finished 15 points behind a Barca that we knocked out of the Europa league, it certainly wasn't a stellar team.

Real Madrid finished 10 points behind Barcelona, not 15. Yet another example of you making up a number because it feels right in your head.

The quality of this year's Real Madrid is downplayed by making these claims of being "x points behind Barcelona" at a time when Barcelona were shattering the 'goals conceded' record, dropping almost no points, and looking at a 100-point league finish.

 

[Bearded One]

I'm interested. What precedence? Mancini made the place toxic and Pellegrini was the preparation for Pep. Pep is the first manager they've pushed the boat out for and it's turned out to be an excellent call.

Are you telling me that if Pep kept finishing second in the league by a single point behind a 98-point Liverpool for the first three years, he would've been fired?

If yes, what's that based on other than "common sense"? Has anyone at the club said anything to that effect?

If no, then his job is under no more threat than Klopp's.




The claim I was refuting was not that Pep is expected to finish top-4. It was that Pep's job is different from Klopp's at Liverpool because "instant success" was demanded. I assumed what the poster meant by "instant success" was trophies (and close second places wouldn't count). But I could be wrong. Maybe he was just referring to top-4, in which case it's a pretty dramatic phrase for a club that's already been in the top-4 consistently for years before Pep arrived.

Mancini’s result was also terrible in the season where he was asked to go. Pellegrini being preparation for Pep? How is that seeing that they don’t play the same style. They pushed the boat for him but the results have also been very good except his first - breaking records along the way.

Yes he would have been fired if he was finishing second in the league no matter how close because they have very high expectations. That’s the point I’m making that clubs have differing expectations based in different factors. For Liverpool that feat was remarkable but that would be tragic if it was the other way round. Even among fans from other clubs there is a certain expectation for them to win a quadruple when they hadn’t even smelled a CL trophy ever before.

You can deduce from precedence though so it’s fair to say that Pep was much more in danger of being in the sack conversation of they hadn’t gotten up to speed. Klopp on the other hand, you cannot make that claim. Or at least you cannot say both managers were expected to achieve the same thing in their first couple of seasons.

 

[Care_de_Bobo]

Bayern might be underpeforming in the league but had a 100% winning record in the CL beating La Liga champions (Barca home and away) Ligue 1 champ (PSG home and away), CL finalist Inter Milan home and away until they met City

They also decided to sack the manager who got them those results just before the City tie and were later eliminated from the DFB Pokal by Freiburg. They were missing Choupo-Mouting against City and I'd say that any team relying on him to be available has some pretty glaring issues and beating PSG, a team that finished a single point above Lens, with Mbappe being rushed back from injury doesn't change that.

Also underpeforming in the league is a bit of an understatement. If it hadn't been for Dortmund being Dortmund then they would have lost the league to a team who got dumped out of the CL by Chelsea. This Bayern squad would honestly struggle to finish in the top 6 in the PL right now, but made the quarters of the CL because of the sorry state of the other top teams around Europe right now.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Are you telling me that if Pep kept finishing second in the league by a single point behind a 98-point Liverpool for the first three years, he would've been fired?

Clubs that finish with 97 points for three consecutive years are probably going to pick up other trophies (FA Cup, League Cup, CL) because they are very good. Case in point, Liverpool FC.

What could such an extreme example possibly tell us? It's the edgiest of edge cases.

 

[Bearded One]

They also decided to sack the manager who got them those results just before the City tie and were later eliminated from the DFB Pokal by Freiburg. They were missing Choupo-Mouting against City and I'd say that any team relying on him to be available has some pretty glaring issues and beating PSG, a team that finished a single point above Lens, with Mbappe being rushed back from injury doesn't change that.

Also underpeforming in the league is a bit of an understatement. If it hadn't been for Dortmund being Dortmund then they would have lost the league to a team who got dumped out of the CL by Chelsea. This Bayern squad would honestly struggle to finish in the top 6 in the PL right now, but made the quarters of the CL because of the sorry state of the other top teams around Europe right now.

Bayern are underperforming but it’s not because of a lack of talent. The following players will have a good shout in the current city squad: Neuer, Cancelo, Upamecano, De Ligt, Davies, Hernandez, Pavard, Kimmich, Coman, Sane, Mane, Musiala, Gnarbry. That’s more than eleven players - all very talented.

It’s easy to focus on Chupo-Moting but they have so many attackers that can fill that bill.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

PSG, a team that finished a single point above Lens

PSG finished with 85 points. They are "a point above Lens" because Lens had an excellent season and finished with 84 points. Are PSG supposed to win other clubs' matches for them so that Lens places lower? Is it an affront when another 'lesser' club performs well? Is current City bad because they finished a mere 5 points behind Arsenal?

 

[erikcred]

Clubs that finish with 97 points for three consecutive years are probably going to pick up other trophies (FA Cup, League Cup, CL) because they are very good. Case in point, Liverpool FC.

What could such an extreme example possibly tell us? It's the edgiest of edge cases.

I was just responding to a poster who compared Klopp's job security to Pep's and said that Pep is under much more pressure than Klopp to deliver trophies and he'd be fired if he didn't (I'm assuming by success the poster means trophies). I'm just saying that this is not accurate.

They were both expected to demonstrate obvious progress. In Klopp's case the main job was to win the PL and as long as he kept coming close, he'd have been in the job. Similarly, Pep's job was to win the CL and as long as he kept making the semis/finals he was safe. Both were going to be given ample time to achieve their main goals is all I'm saying.

 

[jm99]

Real Madrid finished 10 points behind Barcelona, not 15. Yet another example of you making up a number because it feels right in your head.

The quality of this year's Real Madrid is downplayed by making these claims of being "x points behind Barcelona" at a time when Barcelona were shattering the 'goals conceded' record, dropping almost no points, and looking at a 100-point league finish.

I'd have thought as a real Madrid fan, you'd have remembered that Barca won the title with 4 games to go becuase they were 13 points ahead when it actually mattered, lost 3 of their last 4 games and you managed to claw the gap back to 10. Losing the title with 4 games to go against a Barca side that we knocked out of the europa league suggests maybe not being that strong

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

No it's just you. Keane and neville have both called Ronaldo the GOAT, do they lack your incredible perception or is it possible to have different opinions?

I have answered, Pep has always had the best players and most resources at every club, he took over a treble winning bayern that as pointed out above reached 3 CL finals in 4 seasons before Pep joined, yet he got knocked out every year, including a 4-0 home defeat by real Madrid the season after the treble. If pep's next job is going to juventusnor ac Milan and turns them back into European powerhouses, there will be no wsrgument from me that its great. But you can't pretend that it'd an idea unique to me that Pep hasn't facd the same kind of challenges as klopp and simeone

The GOAT debate is 100% dead after that WC and you know it.

 

[GinobiliTheGOAT]

I'd have thought as a real Madrid fan, you'd have remembered that Barca won the title with 4 games to go becuase they were 13 points ahead when it actually mattered, lost 3 of their last 4 games and you managed to claw the gap back to 10. Losing the title with 4 games to go against a Barca side that we knocked out of the europa league suggests maybe not being that strong

Barca had a million injuries in that second leg, notably dembele and pedri. United had a lot of injuries in the first leg. Nothing you can really take from a match where Barca were missing 2 of their top 3 players. Madrid weren’t so fortunate in the league with Barca injuries.

 

[ExoduS]

He managed absolutely best and most expensive teams ever assembled. I actually think he underachieved a lot in UCL. That just shows how hard is to win that competition for any team that isn't Real Madrid.

 

[jm99]

The GOAT debate is 100% dead after that WC and you know it.

Even if thay were true, which is disagree with but no point rehashing it in here. The point is that in the 2020-21 season, neville and Keane did call ronaldo the Goat and that poster disagreed with them then, at that point, yet now he's trying to act as though you can't disagree with pundits or journalists.

Even ignoring the ronaldo example how many people on here were irritated every time neville opened his mouth about solskjaer, it's so lazy to say pundits are infallible

 

[jm99]

Barca had a million injuries in that second leg, notably dembele and pedri. United had a lot of injuries in the first leg. Nothing you can really take from a match where Barca were missing 2 of their top 3 players. Madrid weren’t so fortunate in the league with Barca injuries.

Didn't you also finish 3rd in your CL group? Xavi seems to be doing a good job, but let's not pretend as though this was a great Barcelona side, or that losing the title to them with 4 games to spare isn't indicative that your team isn't anywhere near its best

 

[tenpoless]

Stop the count and close the thread.

 

[kaiser1]

Yes because of context, if simeone had managed peak Barca, bayern and city and had the same record he does now I'd consider him a joke. 2 league titles in Spain, one of which was against close to peak Messi Barca and peak real Ronaldo, is an outrageous achievement for an atletico manager. Had Klopp had the same resources as guardiola, then 1 league title in 8 years would be awful. But he lost 2 titles by a single point with far less resources. If you can't look at that context then there's not much more to say

Which context and In what world does a manager of Atletico gets a pass for finishing last in a CL group of Brugge Leverkusen and Porto, this is not the first time he is failing to make it out of CL group stages and dropping into Europa while Guardiola has to win every CL title he competes in

 

[jm99]

Which context and In what world does a manager of Atletico gets a pass for finishing last in a CL group of Brugge Leverkusen and Porto, this is not the first time he is failing to make it out of CL group stages and dropping into Europa while Guardiola has to win every CL title he competes in

The same world that a city one gets a pass for losing to Lyon, Chelsea and spurs in the knockouts. I'm not holding those against guardiola particularly im saying his best achievements aren't as good as klopp or someone's. What he's done with city is less impressive than what they've done with Liverpool and atletico. I really didn't think that would be controversial

 

[matt10000]

No. It's not as simple as counting major trophies.

Pep is for sure one of the best managers of all time, but what Fergie did with Aberdeen and then United will probably never be matched.

Yeah what Fergie and Brian Clough did Pep will never do.

I am not even convinced Pep is the best manager of right now. The money distorts his achievements so much that it’s hard to tell.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

I'd have thought as a real Madrid fan, you'd have remembered that Barca won the title with 4 games to go becuase they were 13 points ahead when it actually mattered, lost 3 of their last 4 games and you managed to claw the gap back to 10. Losing the title with 4 games to go against a Barca side that we knocked out of the europa league suggests maybe not being that strong

Real Madrid essentially lost the title to Barcelona on matchday 26 (narrow defeat at the Camp Nou).

Real Madrid had 56 points by the end of matchday 26. In the three previous seasons, at that same stage, Real Madrid had 60, 54, and 56 points. The average of that is 56.6 points. We were performing pretty much exactly the same as in the previous three seasons, in which we'd won two league titles and competed until the last day for another one.

You are judging the quality of Real Madrid based on the fact that Barcelona performed extremely well and you have chosen not to rate them on the basis of a single knockout against United. It is a relative argument that confuses more than it clarifies.

We hardly 'clawed back' anything, our form was terrible after the league was 'done', we lost 4 of the last 12 games.

 

[jm99]

Real Madrid essentially lost the title to Barcelona on matchday 26 (narrow defeat at the Camp Nou).

Real Madrid had 56 points by the end of matchday 26. In the three previous seasons, at that same stage, Real Madrid had 60, 54, and 56 points. The average of that is 56.6 points. We were performing pretty much exactly the same as in the previous three seasons, in which we'd won two league titles and competed until the last day for another one.

You are judging the quality of Real Madrid based on the fact that Barcelona performed extremely well and you have chosen not to rate them on the basis of a single knockout against United. It is a relative argument that confuses more than it clarifies.

We hardly 'clawed back' anything, our form was terrible after the league was 'done', we lost 4 of the last 12 games.

And of course you choose to overlook that this year with the winter world cup after the world cup the compacted season took its toll on every team that didn't have as strong a bench as city. But I'm sure you'll say an incredibly strong bench didn't help there either for some weird reason