Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

No, like I wouldn't consider the best footballer to be the most influential, I'd consider them to be the most talented or who achieved the most with their talent

I don't get that. Are you saying the best footballer isn't the one who has the biggest impact/plays best but the one who wins the most?

No offense but you're really doing some mental gymnastics in this thread. Surely you've realized that yourself if you're being honest.
 
I don't get that. Are you saying the best footballer isn't the one who has the biggest impact/plays best but the one who wins the most?

No offense but you're really doing some mental gymnastics in this thread. Surely you've realized that yourself if you're being honest.

I'm doing mental gymnastics? Not the people trying to pretend that winning the 08/09 league with Messi/xavi/iniesta Vs a real Madrid who's best attacker was a 30 plus year old van nistelrooy. I'm saying a player can be influential like cryuff without being better than Ronaldo or Messi. People aren't going to be able to replicate what Messi does because they don't have that same ability. So while pep may well be the most influential, that isn't the same as the best
 
They had not won the CL in the previous years and did not win it again until 2019. If we apply the logic you've been using in this thread, then maybe the squad wasn't actually that amazing and it was the manager (Heynckes) who got them to overperform.


United have, indeed, spent money badly. So have Chelsea. and Arsenal. PSG. Barcelona. Juventus. Real Madrid. Probably some fans would even argue Bayern Munich.

Money matters in football. The club in 17th place with a budget ten times lower than City's will have no chance of competing against them. But at the top, money just doesn't matter in the same way.

So city having a bench full of 50m plus players that allowed them to rotate and stay fresh offered no advantage over Liverpool? fecking hell
 
I'm doing mental gymnastics? Not the people trying to pretend that winning the 08/09 league with Messi/xavi/iniesta Vs a real Madrid who's best attacker was a 30 plus year old van nistelrooy. I'm saying a player can be influential like cryuff without being better than Ronaldo or Messi. People aren't going to be able to replicate what Messi does because they don't have that same ability. So while pep may well be the most influential, that isn't the same as the best

Yes, you do. I think the correct term for this is cognitive dissonance. You want to believe that Guardiola isn't the best so you seek for arguments, however silly, that support your claim. And when somebody disproves them, you convince yourself of even wilder arguments just to avoid admitting that you've been wrong, ending up getting caught in ever more absurd contradictions.

No offense but this is tiring so I'm out at this point. There are no interesting insights to gain from you because you aren't really convinced by the opinion you share here yourself.
 
Yes, you do. I think the correct term for this is cognitive dissonance. You want to believe that Guardiola isn't the best so you seek for arguments, however silly, that support your claim. And when somebody disproves them, you convince yourself of even wilder arguments just to avoid admitting that you've been wrong, ending up getting caught in ever more absurd contradictions.

No offense but this is tiring so I'm out at this point. There are no interesting insights to gain from you because you aren't really convinced by the opinion you share here yourself.

I don't need to be convinced, Pep has always had the best squad and most resources. Maybe he could do it without it, but theoretical achievements don't count
 
It's motivated reasoning.

Someone should have told the city board that "iker quesadillas" from redcafe says money doesn't matter that much, then they might not be facing 115 charges of breaking financial rules to let them spend more. They'll be gutted t learn they could have had the same success appointing pep and spending within their means instead of spending a billion in 7 seasons
 
So city having a bench full of 50m plus players that allowed them to rotate and stay fresh offered no advantage over Liverpool? fecking hell

In 2018/2019, the City players who made a contribution (over 500 minutes), ranked 12th to 21st, were: Mahrez, Otamendi, Zinchenko, Jesus, De Bruyne, Kompany, Danilo, Mendy, Delph, and Foden. Their total cost was 332m. The average cost per player was 33m.

The Liverpool players who made a contribution (over 500 minutes), ranked 12th to 18th, were: Matip, Keita, Gomez, Shaquiri, Lovren, Sturridge, and Origi. Their total cost was 133m and the average cost per player was 19m.

The primary difference is that City had more players who made a meaningful contribution (21 to 18). But City played 61 games that season and Liverpool played 53. That difference of 8 games is worth almost 8000 minutes and is where the 'advantage' gets spent.
 
In 2018/2019, the City players who made a contribution (over 500 minutes), ranked 12th to 21st, were: Mahrez, Otamendi, Zinchenko, Jesus, De Bruyne, Kompany, Danilo, Mendy, Delph, and Foden. Their total cost was 332m. The average cost per player was 33m.

The Liverpool players who made a contribution (over 500 minutes), ranked 12th to 18th, were: Matip, Keita, Gomez, Shaquiri, Lovren, Sturridge, and Origi. Their total cost was 133m and the average cost per player was 19m.

The primary difference is that City had more players who made a meaningful contribution (21 to 18). But City played 61 games that season and Liverpool played 53. That difference of 8 games is worth almost 8000 minutes and is where the 'advantage' gets spent.

So 50% more viable reserves (10 compared to 7) who are on average 70% more valuable isn't a big advantage? fecking hell
 
Once, in an entire career. Placing him below simeone, klopp and mourinho, who have done so multiple times

All smaller achievements than that one time. The only achievement in modern club football comparable to pep’s first season is Zidane’s 3 peat. Whatever your favorite Jose Mourinho has done whatever not comparable.

Speaking of Mourinho, he had the “Man City” of the early 2000s in Chelsea, and the very very expensive squad which included both CR7 and Kaka (both ballon dor winners) in Real Madrid. How many champions league did he won both both super expensice sides? Zero, nil, zitch.
Yet Jm99 is sure Mourinho will win what Pep won if he had the same situation.

Fact shows that Mourinho can achieve with teams with lesser expectations, but give him a top of the line jobs, he couldn’t get it done.
If only JM99 applied the same expectations to JM as he did to Pep in his Chelsea and Real Madrid jobs.
 
And how much zidane test himself? Pele?

it’s a useless stat. Ibra went to tons of different leagues fared well, but nobody sees him as a top 5 striker all time due to lack of CL’s.

kdb be one of the all time great midfielders despite all of his great years mostly coming under city. Same with aguero. Same with modric, same with Buffon.

plus Messi already broke a record of 16 assists in 36 matches in ligue 1 which was a record and a WC with Argentina but who cares about “testing” yourself.


ronaldo made a boneheaded move leaving Real Madrid. Shockingly bad decision. And also played with leftovers from a CL finalist team. It didn’t matter. Nobody will remember the Juventus years. Even if he got worse and worse the “further and further away from zidanes” management.

So for pep to go from the best team in one country to another is meaningless. “Testing yourself” is an incredibly rubbish criteria


What record did messi break? i don't see any claims of this after a search, just ones speculating he could break Di Maria's 18 assist season. There are seven players above his total of 16 on transfermarkt, with Payet at 21 being on top. even accounting for different ways of counting assists it doesn't seem he broke any league record at least?
 
All smaller achievements than that one time. The only achievement in modern club football comparable to pep’s first season is Zidane’s 3 peat. Whatever your favorite Jose Mourinho has done whatever not comparable.

Speaking of Mourinho, he had the “Man City” of the early 2000s in Chelsea, and the very very expensive squad which included both CR7 and Kaka (both ballon dor winners) in Real Madrid. How many champions league did he won both both super expensice sides? Zero, nil, zitch.
Yet Jm99 is sure Mourinho will win what Pep won if he had the same situation.

Hold on, are yiu seriously suggesting that pep's is a bigger achievement becusse he won the equivalent of the charity shield and the club world cup and mourinho didn't, even though mourinho won the treble with a far weaker squad :lol:
 
Hold on, are yiu seriously suggesting that pep's is a bigger achievement becusse he won the equivalent of the charity shield and the club world cup and mourinho didn't, even though mourinho won the treble with a far weaker squad :lol:
You can laugh, but no one else has achieved that. If only it was so easy, more than one manager would have done it.
I get that this is a bad year for you, with Messi winning the World Cup and Pep winning his 2nd treble. I shall leave you to your laughing and copium overdose.
Like the other posters, I am out. Have a nice day
 
You can laugh, but no one else has achieved that. If only it was so easy, more than one manager would have done it

It's utterly ridiculous to say that winning the European super cup, spanish super cup and club world cup are some massive trophies that make his achievement miles ahead of any other treble. Nobody considers these trophies as important, if United fans tried to hold a charity shield win as some great achievement, I'd feel embarrassed.

This is how you can tell pep fans are just saying whatever they can to make their hero look better, imagine fecking considering these 3 trophies as important :lol: :lol:
 
I have to say I don't understand why you keep going on about Liverpool vs. City... it's not really the best argument.

The problems with looking at Liverpool vs. City are that 1) they have both gotten an insane amount of points every season, and 2) their title races have been extremely tight finishes.

If you were looking at one club that finished with 90 points and another that finished with 95 or so, it would be easier to argue... you could say Liverpool has room to grow with additional players, with more quality in the bench. But they finished with 97 and 99 points in 2019 to 2020. It's very, very difficult to improve upon that. You could argue that City could get worse with a more shallow bench... but this argument is less credible coming from someone who insists that City's entire starting 11 is world-class. Why should City not get many points with a great 11 and a 'weak' bench when Liverpool can do the exact same thing? The only reason would be "a personal belief that Klopp is better than Guardiola" but that is belief, nothing more.

The tight finishes are important because we run the risk of overdetermination here. Sure, in the end what matters is winning the title. But in terms of performance, 1 or 2 points can easily be ascribed to luck or happenstance. Liverpool's Klopp have been City's equal when they've had a title race. They haven't really been inferior. So when we are talking about "advantages" obtained by having X, Y, Z, we are not talking about advantages that we can clearly see in the league point tallies. We are talking about advantages that we would see only if we could somehow remove them, or if we had an imaginary model of how things "should" be and we measure against it.

That can be done in a rigurous way. But more likely you'll just end up in Simpsons' "Anti-Tiger Rock" territory.
 
I have to say I don't understand why you keep going on about Liverpool vs. City... it's not really the best argument.

The problems with looking at Liverpool vs. City are that 1) they have both gotten an insane amount of points every season, and 2) their title races have been extremely tight finishes.

If you were looking at one club that finished with 90 points and another that finished with 95 or so, it would be easier to argue... you could say Liverpool has room to grow with additional players, with more quality in the bench. But they finished with 97 and 99 points in 2019 to 2020. It's very, very difficult to improve upon that. You could argue that City could get worse with a more shallow bench... but this argument is less credible coming from someone who insists that City's entire starting 11 is world-class. Why should City not get many points with a great 11 and a 'weak' bench when Liverpool can do the exact same thing? The only reason would be "a personal belief that Klopp is better than Guardiola" but that is belief, nothing more.

The tight finishes are important because we run the risk of overdetermination here. Sure, in the end what matters is winning the title. But in terms of performance, 1 or 2 points can easily be ascribed to luck or happenstance. Liverpool's Klopp have been City's equal when they've had a title race. They haven't really been inferior.

So what was the point in city spending all this extra money and breaking ffp rules, and facing charges if the extra 70% per player they had on their bench didn't even add a single point? How can you seriously be trying to argue that having a much stronger bench in such a physically demanding leue is an enormous advantage. Why not try and argue something that at least makes sense, like you prefer the brand of football pep plays, or he's more dominant than Liverpool were or whatever. Trying to argue that a much more expensive team, with a much deeper bench isn't an advantage is insane

They achieved similar results and one had far less resources, I'm genuinely struggling to work out why a real Madrid fan is being so deliberately obtuse to try and defend pep Guardiola.
 
Well I'm a big fan of a player who was a big part of a very successful period and don't feel affinity towards a manager who beat us in 2 finals and has managed city for 7 years, i know that seems strange, on a united forum, we should all be big fans of the city manager.

You and the other pep acolytes can't even admit he's had better players and more resources than every other manager. He took over the treble winners at Bayern and got spanked 5-0 by Madrid the next year even with the addition of lewandowski. Surely you're not going to try and argue his Barca team wasn't totally stacked? So that leaves city, a team that almost everyone agrees has an enormous financial advantage over every other side, even if you just include what's oj the books and not the money they've been shown paying off the books.

It's not all about money, we've spent money badly. But just as it would e ridiculous to suggest Chelsea under abramovich won just because of mourinho's genius and had nothing to do with the money spent, so it is to suggest that Pep having a billion in seven years spent despite inheriting probably the strongest squad in the league is all down to his genius and none down to his resources

But plenty of United fans are able to rise about it, put on their big boy boots and just look at it for what it is though, why cant you? Either way I’m glad we’ve established that the real issue for you is that he won those 2 CL finals. As for Ronaldo, I have no idea how anyone can still look upon him favourably after the contempt he’s shown for the club. But that’s football fans now days, more interested in single players than the club, with players having a diehard set of acolytes who put me in mind of Michael Jackson’s mental fanbase.


The rest is just more noise and belly-aching. His Barca side wasn’t what it was until he rocked up, he’s the guy who brought through players like Pedro and Busquets and made them what they were at a time everyone was saying he was nuts to bin Henry or Toure, just as eyebrows were raised when he told Ronaldinho and Deco to go elsewhere. Every manager has taken heavy defeats at one point or another too, so it doesn’t mean anything.


Other teams have outspent City in recent seasons, they’ve got a far more favourable net spend than other sides too. Anyway, you’ve went for trying to tell me Ake, Akanji, Stones et al are world class technicians to bleating about resources again so I’m guessing you’ve given up on that particular argument. Just know that there’s a valid reason you’re being challenged firmly on your frankly ludicrous assertions.
 
But plenty of United fans are able to rise about it, put on their big boy boots and just look at it for what it is though, why cant you? Either way I’m glad we’ve established that the real issue for you is that he won those 2 CL finals. As for Ronaldo, I have no idea how anyone can still look upon him favourably after the contempt he’s shown for the club. But that’s football fans now days, more interested in single players than the club, with players having a diehard set of acolytes who put me in mind of Michael Jackson’s mental fanbase.


The rest is just more noise and belly-aching. His Barca side wasn’t what it was until he rocked up, he’s the guy who brought through players like Pedro and Busquets and made them what they were at a time everyone was saying he was nuts to bin Henry or Toure, just as eyebrows were raised when he told Ronaldinho and Deco to go elsewhere. Every manager has taken heavy defeats at one point or another too, so it doesn’t mean anything.


Other teams have outspent City in recent seasons, they’ve got a far more favourable net spend than other sides too. Anyway, you’ve went for trying to tell me Ake, Akanji, Stones et al are world class technicians to bleating about resources again so I’m guessing you’ve given up on that particular argument. Just know that there’s a valid reason you’re being challenged firmly on your frankly ludicrous assertions.

There is no real issue for me. I don't like guardiola. I also don't like klopp, his moaning about the wind is the most pathetic thing ive seen from a manager. That doesnt mean I can't be objective.

His Barca team had 4 of the top 10 wpoty for 2008.

Why did City have to break ffp and face charges to spend more money, if it hasn't been an advantage. Let me guess, you probably say they're innocent as long as it paints pep in a better light.

We haven't even got onto the fuentes stuff where the Spanish authorities made sure blood bags were destroyed before they could be tested, and pep's Barca just happened to be much fitter than every other side. Must have been a big coincidence
 
What record did messi break? i don't see any claims of this after a search, just ones speculating he could break Di Maria's 18 assist season. There are seven players above his total of 16 on transfermarkt, with Payet at 21 being on top. even accounting for different ways of counting assists it doesn't seem he broke any league record at least?

Ah so to clarify it looks like:


https://www.ligue1.com/Articles/New...Messi (PSG) is the,league record for a season.

Lionel Messi (PSG) is the leader on the official Ligue 1 Uber Eats assists chart, five lengths ahead of his nearest chaser Jonathan Clauss of OM. Messi's 16 assists in the first 36 rounds constitute a league record for a season.

So yeah, di maria still holds the record
 
But plenty of United fans are able to rise about it, put on their big boy boots and just look at it for what it is though, why cant you? Either way I’m glad we’ve established that the real issue for you is that he won those 2 CL finals. As for Ronaldo, I have no idea how anyone can still look upon him favourably after the contempt he’s shown for the club. But that’s football fans now days, more interested in single players than the club, with players having a diehard set of acolytes who put me in mind of Michael Jackson’s mental fanbase.


The rest is just more noise and belly-aching. His Barca side wasn’t what it was until he rocked up, he’s the guy who brought through players like Pedro and Busquets and made them what they were at a time everyone was saying he was nuts to bin Henry or Toure, just as eyebrows were raised when he told Ronaldinho and Deco to go elsewhere. Every manager has taken heavy defeats at one point or another too, so it doesn’t mean anything.


Other teams have outspent City in recent seasons, they’ve got a far more favourable net spend than other sides too. Anyway, you’ve went for trying to tell me Ake, Akanji, Stones et al are world class technicians to bleating about resources again so I’m guessing you’ve given up on that particular argument. Just know that there’s a valid reason you’re being challenged firmly on your frankly ludicrous assertions.

You know what's strange? I had a look through your post history, about half your posts in the last year or two (as far back as I could look) were running down Ronaldo, most of the rest were praising pep, Messi and other city players. I think you've posted abiut United roughly 3 times in the last year, so maybe its fair to say you do have a massive bias towards pep and Messi and against Ronaldo, so the manager who opposed him at Barca will certainly get more credit from you.

If you're going to claim other people have an agenda it would probably be best to not have such a clear and obvious one yourself in your post history so readily available
 
Guardiola is a rare case, where he is an obsessive coach regarding defensive aspects of the game while creating very offensive sides, that prefers to mold players into his system than having or buying established super stars in his teams , he has a great eye for great/huge talents and for players that even not being precisely huge talents, can give him sthg that he can have in his team without disrupting too much his dressing room and mostly his leadership, wherever we like his treatment of a certain player or not.

He obviously found oil in Barca when he took charge but at the same time he had the balls to dispatch an already established Exxon while starting his own Oil company with his own group of players, maintaining and giving roles and confidence with the ones he liked for his system.
Nobody would invent a Messi, these geniuses are born, but he bet 200% on him while letting go huge players, already knowing how self destructive of a club Barca can be. He also convinced very fast a whole group of players to play an style that wasn't there with the previous coach (BTW Frankie was great, but he more than probably got tired of the whole huge club stuff world Pep thrives on).

He sometimes can negotiate with huge egos and extraordinary players like: Messi (the later ONE, at the beginning he just placed a huge bet on a youngster, no matter how Genius he was born, not every coach do that and does it right, he let the kid go to the Olympics, he let him have some outbursts, he let him know anyway that he was in charge and that he would let him play with liberty as long as he doesn't go over the top, while giving a extremely heavy 10 on his back), Henry, Aguero (one of the few things I don't agree with @ikerquesadillas here about Kun status, tastes aside, I feel that for moments some posters were dragged by some silly arguments that even made Klopp receive some unnecessary hit also) and cia...sometimes he will clash too much, but he won't usually do the mistake of many other obsessive systemic coaches tend to do in trying to ask or convert certain profiles of players in sthg they want them to be like Van Gaal and such.

He will try to find common ground, or he be clear that he doesn't want him there, he might make mistakes when buying like Ibra (a bet in reality that unlike the Messi and Iniesta one "failed"), but the great majority of times he KNOWS what he is buying and what to expect and what liberties to give to those and what not.
He swims in the middle of obsessive nut jobs like Van Gaal, Bielsa..less nutty but obsessive and extremely pragmatic ones like Simeone, Mou and have some old guard more relaxed player approach in occasions a la Ancellotti and such.
In this aspect he is similar to Klopp, in this sort of management, they would have their system, their requirements, they do not like to be a lyric coach a la Menotti, Zagallo, Basile, but they won't explain Messi, Pele or Maradona (or leaving geniuses aside, huge players) how they have to play, they'll give advice, tools, they won't try to convert Di Maria in Pedro.

In any case JUST only ONE GOAT coach is silly as in many ways it's with players, nor football was invented 20 years ago, nor everything a Klopp, Pep or Mou does it's innovative.

Finally, the amount of silly arguments against the bald one has been painful to read, this doesn't mean to even like the dude, or even having him as preferred coach, I do not like tons of decisions he took in his career, but would be silly if I think that someone can't consider Pep the best or among the best ever.
Yet there is also lot of not even that subtle subtext of certain posts more related to CR7 and the whole Messi or Barca vs Man Utd/Madrid stuff than anything else. In the meantime many here will be surprised that Alex it's not considered the non plus ultra best coach ever outside of England or more precisely Man Utd, it's not sthg settle in stone as I've been reading here and in the history of the game for different reasons many coaches were pivotal even in the tactics of the game without winning everything and a large etc.
 
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They had not won the CL in the previous years and did not win it again until 2019. If we apply the logic you've been using in this thread, then maybe the squad wasn't actually that amazing and it was the manager (Heynckes) who got them to overperform.

Just to say that in the 4 years before Pep they had reached 3 CL finals (2 in a row, losing to Chelsea on penalties and winning with Heynckes), something Pep in his 3 years didn't manage to do (and actually being crushed by teams of similar quality to his Bayern).
His record in the CL post Barça (and before this year) is actually bad: everytime he faced a team of similar quality he was crushed and often he lost to teams that were inferior.
This year he finally got it as all the big european teams were having a bad year (Real, Barça (in Europe), Juventus, Inter, Milan, Bayern, Atlético, Chelsea, Liverpool).
 
You know what's strange? I had a look through your post history, about half your posts in the last year or two (as far back as I could look) were running down Ronaldo, most of the rest were praising pep, Messi and other city players. I think you've posted abiut United roughly 3 times in the last year, so maybe its fair to say you do have a massive bias towards pep and Messi and against Ronaldo, so the manager who opposed him at Barca will certainly get more credit from you.

If you're going to claim other people have an agenda it would probably be best to not have such a clear and obvious one yourself in your post history so readily available

Are you going to tell me Rio, Souness, Keane, Neville and a whole host of other players (many of them ex United) have that bias too? Or that they just lack your incredible perception of the sport?

You’re better just sticking to the trying to answer the questions that are being put to you instead constantly deflecting. Which let’s be honest, you’re only doing because you can’t answer a lot of what is being asked. And yes, I do find it strange that a grown man can’t suck it up and just call a spade a spade.
 
Just to say that in the 4 years before Pep they had reached 3 CL finals (2 in a row, losing to Chelsea on penalties and winning with Heynckes), something Pep in his 3 years didn't manage to do (and actually being crushed by teams of similar quality to his Bayern).
His record in the CL post Barça (and before this year) is actually bad: everytime he faced a team of similar quality he was crushed and often he lost to teams that were inferior.
This year he finally got it as all the big european teams were having a bad year (Real, Barça (in Europe), Juventus, Inter, Milan, Bayern, Atlético, Chelsea, Liverpool).
And in the 7 years that has gone by since Pep left they've won once, eliminated once in the semis, 4 times in the quarters and one time in the 1/8th, so it's not like they've had consistently great results since he left either.

Also, saying that Real Madrid (or Bayern for that matter) had a bad year (especially not in Europe) this season is stretching it. Real had won all their knockout games, and Bayern had won all their games in Europe this season (including two against Barcelona, Inter and PSG). Both these teams were very good in Europe this year. If Real had beaten City and gone on to win the CL it would have been business as usual for them, winning CL and the Copa Del Rey.

Pep has been favourite for the champions league 6 years in a row and only managed to win it this year, he's been favourite for every title he won at city and every title he won at Bayern, and he was favourite for every title at Barca except the first year, but knowing what we know now abiut Messi xavi and iniesta he should have been favourite. I'd maybe give it that he shouldn't have been fsviurritr for the champions league in 08/09 but certainly thr league. But I guess that's counteracted by being favourite every year at city and getting knocked iut by spurs, liverpool, lyon, Chelsea and Madrid.
Ever stopped to think why that is? For example, at the start of the 17/18 season City wasn't the favorites to win the Champions League (which is pretty reasonable, given the players both Barca and Real had at the time, as well as Bayern and PSG). It was only when his team went on a historic run in the PL his team went up to be the favorites in the CL. Do you think this was because everyone just suddenly realized that City had world class players in every single position and another 10 world class players on the bench, or do you think it had something to do with Pep having them play at a performance level that just hadn't been seen in the Premier League before that?
 
Well I'm a big fan of a player who was a big part of a very successful period and don't feel affinity towards a manager who beat us in 2 finals and has managed city for 7 years, i know that seems strange, on a united forum, we should all be big fans of the city manager.

You and the other pep acolytes can't even admit he's had better players and more resources than every other manager. He took over the treble winners at Bayern and got spanked 5-0 by Madrid the next year even with the addition of lewandowski. Surely you're not going to try and argue his Barca team wasn't totally stacked? So that leaves city, a team that almost everyone agrees has an enormous financial advantage over every other side, even if you just include what's oj the books and not the money they've been shown paying off the books.

It's not all about money, we've spent money badly. But just as it would e ridiculous to suggest Chelsea under abramovich won just because of mourinho's genius and had nothing to do with the money spent, so it is to suggest that Pep having a billion in seven years spent despite inheriting probably the strongest squad in the league is all down to his genius and none down to his resources

It shouldn't matter who you support. That's such a stupid idea. As if your club affiliation justifies being intellectually dishonest
 
Are you going to tell me Rio, Souness, Keane, Neville and a whole host of other players (many of them ex United) have that bias too? Or that they just lack your incredible perception of the sport?

You’re better just sticking to the trying to answer the questions that are being put to you instead constantly deflecting. Which let’s be honest, you’re only doing because you can’t answer a lot of what is being asked. And yes, I do find it strange that a grown man can’t suck it up and just call a spade a spade.

No it's just you. Keane and neville have both called Ronaldo the GOAT, do they lack your incredible perception or is it possible to have different opinions?

I have answered, Pep has always had the best players and most resources at every club, he took over a treble winning bayern that as pointed out above reached 3 CL finals in 4 seasons before Pep joined, yet he got knocked out every year, including a 4-0 home defeat by real Madrid the season after the treble. If pep's next job is going to juventusnor ac Milan and turns them back into European powerhouses, there will be no wsrgument from me that its great. But you can't pretend that it'd an idea unique to me that Pep hasn't facd the same kind of challenges as klopp and simeone
 
It shouldn't matter who you support. That's such a stupid idea. As if your club affiliation justifies being intellectually dishonest

When people suggest I have a bias against pep due to who I support even though at varying points they've tried to argue that real Madrid were the better side than barca in 08/09, that pep winning with Messi, xavi and iniesta who were all wpoty top 10 before his arrival is the same as fergie bringing through Giggs, scholes etc from the youth academy, that Bayern weren't expected to do better in the cl than pep managed despite winning the season before he took over and 3 finals in 4 years before he took over, and worst of all that a 50% deeper squad that costs on average 70% more per player isn't an advantage, it's probably fair to wonder about their bias
 
And in the 7 years that has gone by since Pep left they've won once, eliminated once in the semis, 4 times in the quarters and one time in the 1/8th, so it's not like they've had consistently great results since he left either.

Also, saying that Real Madrid (or Bayern for that matter) had a bad year (especially not in Europe) this season is stretching it. Real had won all their knockout games, and Bayern had won all their games in Europe this season (including two against Barcelona, Inter and PSG). Both these teams were very good in Europe this year. If Real had beaten City and gone on to win the CL it would have been business as usual for them, winning CL and the Copa Del Rey.


Ever stopped to think why that is? For example, at the start of the 17/18 season City wasn't the favorites to win the Champions League (which is pretty reasonable, given the players both Barca and Real had at the time, as well as Bayern and PSG). It was only when his team went on a historic run in the PL his team went up to be the favorites in the CL. Do you think this was because everyone just suddenly realized that City had world class players in every single position and another 10 world class players on the bench, or do you think it had something to do with Pep having them play at a performance level that just hadn't been seen in the Premier League before that?

Real finished 15 points behind a Barca that we knocked out of the Europa league, it certainly wasn't a stellar team.

City were favourites at the start of 17/18. I remember thinking how odd it was the bookies had city favourites despite Madrid having won the previous two. Maybe it had something to do with the 300n they spent that summer, who knows?
 
Real finished 15 points behind a Barca that we knocked out of the Europa league, it certainly wasn't a stellar team.

City were favourites at the start of 17/18. I remember thinking how odd it was the bookies had city favourites despite Madrid having won the previous two. Maybe it had something to do with the 300n they spent that summer, who knows?
They finished 10 points behind, but whatever. It's not unusual for Real to finish behind Barcelona in the league and win the Champions league.

City weren't favorites at the start of 17/18, this is just blatantly not true. Here are some that links that shows odds, notice the change of odds in the last link during the season:

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/n...n-early-look-at-the-2017-18-champions-league/

https://www.eurosport.com/football/...ats-fixtures-key-dates_sto6330575/story.shtml

https://www.sportsinsights.com/blog/2017-18-champions-league-title-odds/
 
They finished 10 points behind, but whatever. It's not unusual for Real to finish behind Barcelona in the league and win the Champions league.

City weren't favorites at the start of 17/18, this is just blatantly not true. Here are some that links that shows odds, notice the change of odds in the last link during the season:

https://www.sportsbettingdime.com/n...n-early-look-at-the-2017-18-champions-league/

https://www.eurosport.com/football/...ats-fixtures-key-dates_sto6330575/story.shtml

https://www.sportsinsights.com/blog/2017-18-champions-league-title-odds/

OK fair enough, i remembered that weong. They have been betting favourites every year since though and have lost 4 and finally won 1. A 20% win rate being favourites every year isn't great
 
OK fair enough, i remembered that weong. They have been betting favourites every year since though and have lost 4 and finally won 1. A 20% win rate being favourites every year isn't great
Yeah, but you're missing the point. What do you think the reason was they went up to being the favorites during the 17/18 season? Was it because everyone suddenly realized they had world class players in every position, or maybe because Pep had them performing at a ridiculous level in the Premier League - a level above what any team in the league had done before them?
 
Yeah, but you're missing the point. What were the reason they went up to being the favorites during the 17/18 season? Was it because everyone suddenly realized they had world class players in every position, or maybe because Pep had them performing at a ridiculous level in the Premier League - a level above what any team in the league had done before them?

Probably becuase the effects of their 300m spend that summer became apparent and because pep had them playing well. Again I'm not saying he isn't a great manager, but getting the most expensively assembled squad ever to play well isnt a GOAT level achievement. For me, every other manager in that conversation has won agaisnt the odds. Thats why, as great as the threepeat was, Zidane isn't in that conversation for me either. It takes skill to win with the best players, but it's easier than winning agaisnt the odds. You'll see average managers who can win stuff with that Barca, that bayern or this city squad. You won't find any average managers who can do what klopp has done at Liverpool or simeone at atletico
 
Probably becuase the effects of their 300m spend that summer became apparent and because pep had them playing well. Again I'm not saying he isn't a great manager, but getting the most expensively assembled squad ever to play well isnt a GOAT level achievement. For me, every other manager in that conversation has won agaisnt the odds.
Or, you know, the more logical answer to the question - because he had them playing at a level of consistency the Premier League just hadn't seen before. You keep on harping about the money - he didn't spend 300m in the summer, he spent 250m and the most expensive of those players were injured for the entirety of the season. The only two players that got incorporated right away in the first 11 was Walker and Ederson. And just to be clear here - I'm not saying he's the greatest manager of all time (I don't think he is), I'm saying he's a manager that has his teams performing at a very, very high level and more than the sum of their parts (which is just objectively true).

Thats why, as great as the threepeat was, Zidane isn't in that conversation for me either. It takes skill to win with the best players, but it's easier than winning agaisnt the odds. You'll see average managers who can win stuff with that Barca, that bayern or this city squad. You won't find any average managers who can do what klopp has done at Liverpool or simeone at atletico
It's true that you can have average managers winning with great squads. No average manager would last 7 years in City though, there's a reason a lot of managers enjoys success the first year in their jobs at big clubs and then gets fired in the second or third - it's incredibly difficult to maintain a high level of performance and consistently delivering trophies. Only the very best manages to do this, no average manager would be able to win 5 in 6 with City, not a chance at all.

Regarding Zidane, I don't think he belongs with the greatest either - he needs to have been managing more than 5 years to get to that, no matter the enourmous success he's already had.
 
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Instantly ruins my moods when I see this thread title at the of the page whenever I get on the ‘caf.

Maybe that’s my cue to take a long break.
 
When people suggest I have a bias against pep due to who I support even though at varying points they've tried to argue that real Madrid were the better side than barca in 08/09, that pep winning with Messi, xavi and iniesta who were all wpoty top 10 before his arrival is the same as fergie bringing through Giggs, scholes etc from the youth academy, that Bayern weren't expected to do better in the cl than pep managed despite winning the season before he took over and 3 finals in 4 years before he took over, and worst of all that a 50% deeper squad that costs on average 70% more per player isn't an advantage, it's probably fair to wonder about their bias

Did you quote the wrong post?
 
Or, you know, the more logical answer to the question - because he had them playing at a level of consistency the Premier League just hadn't seen before. You keep on harping about the money - he didn't spend 300m in the summer, he spent 250m and the most expensive of those players were injured for the entirety of the season. The only two players that got incorporated right away in the first 11 was Walker and Ederson. And just to be clear here - I'm not saying he's the greatest manager of all time (I don't think he is), I'm saying he's a manager that has his teams performing at a very, very high level and more than the sum of their parts (which is just objectively true).


It's true that you can have average managers winning with great squads. No average manager would last 7 years in City though, there's a reason a lot of managers enjoys success the first year in their jobs at big clubs and then gets fired in the second or third - it's incredibly difficult to maintain a high level of performance and consistently delivering trophies. Only the very best manages to do this, no average manager would be able to win 5 in 6 with City, not a chance at all.

He maybe gets his teams playing above the sum of their parts, I don't think he did at Bayern, I'd say it's arguable at Barcelona, and probably yes at city. But, when you have another manager in the same league who gets his teams performing to more than the sum of their parts to an even greater degree, then it puts what Pep has done in perspective. Again, I'm not calling pep an average manager, he's done a very good job with City, though some of his European disappointments have been bizarre (lyon, spurs and Chelsea come to mind), but I don't have him above klopp, or simeone. But he's probably the best active manager besides those two. If he goes somewhere that he isn't managing the favourites with limitless resources, like juventus or Milan and makes them the best side in Europe or even top 2 or 3, he'd probably, move up to number 1 of active managers (granted mourinho is hard to rate because 2002-2012 was so good, and since then has been so poor). So it's not like I think he's awful, though some of the bizarre takes in this thread have maybe made me go too far in the other direction in response, I just don't rate him as highly as thee guy who's gotten similar performances in the same league working with a lot less. For me klopp getting 196 points in two seasons with Liverpool beats anything pep has done at city
 
Did you quote the wrong post?

No, you said the team they support shouldn't matter, but some of these posts coming from United or real Madrid fans are utterly bizarre, I can understand people having a blind spot for their own teams, but trying to act like City's bench compared to Liverpool wasn't an advantage in 18/19 is an insane position for a Madrid fan to take. He actually said because Liverpool got 97 points with a weaker bench, Pep wouldn't have lost a single point if his bench wasn't so much stronger. Even for a City or Barcelona fan, that's a bad take, for a Madrid fan it's inexplicable. Yiu expect fans to have bias for their own teams, to display the kind of bias for a rival is incomprehensible
 
No it's just you. Keane and neville have both called Ronaldo the GOAT, do they lack your incredible perception or is it possible to have different opinions?

I have answered, Pep has always had the best players and most resources at every club, he took over a treble winning bayern that as pointed out above reached 3 CL finals in 4 seasons before Pep joined, yet he got knocked out every year, including a 4-0 home defeat by real Madrid the season after the treble. If pep's next job is going to juventusnor ac Milan and turns them back into European powerhouses, there will be no wsrgument from me that its great. But you can't pretend that it'd an idea unique to me that Pep hasn't facd the same kind of challenges as klopp and simeone

I was actually talking about their views on Pep but you’re too fixated on Ronaldo. By the way I’d be stunned if either of them have even attempted to make that argument post World Cup, I think that kind of silliness is reserved for his internet fanbase. But this is about Pep, and a lot of United legends really don’t seem to agree with your take.

A bit of context is needed too, he got thrashed by Madrid whilst missing both of his two best players and about a week after his mate succumbed to cancer. But if you want to get into CL successes with money spent and all that I’d say that’s a slippery slope because this where someone can drag SAF into the debate and you’ll need to start your furious backpedaling.

Me? I think logic says PG is much more than you imply and that his success is based on an awful lot more than resources, and I think the best minds, players, coaches and journalists in the sport know a little bit more about it than you. They’re probably not viewing it with extreme bias as you’ve already admitted to doing either; which in itself sort of renders your view null and void. That and telling complete porkies about him singing nothing but world class technicians.
 
I was actually talking about their views on Pep but you’re too fixated on Ronaldo. By the way I’d be stunned if either of them have even attempted to make that argument post World Cup, I think that kind of silliness is reserved for his internet fanbase. But this is about Pep, and a lot of United legends really don’t seem to agree with your take.

A bit of context is needed too, he got thrashed by Madrid whilst missing both of his two best players and about a week after his mate succumbed to cancer. But if you want to get into CL successes with money spent and all that I’d say that’s a slippery slope because this where someone can drag SAF into the debate and you’ll need to start your furious backpedaling.

Me? I think logic says PG is much more than you imply and that his success is based on an awful lot more than resources, and I think the best minds, players, coaches and journalists in the sport know a little bit more about it than you. They’re probably not viewing it with extreme bias as you’ve already admitted to doing either; which in itself sort of renders your view null and void. That and telling complete porkies about him singing nothing but world class technicians.

Obviously you were talking about their views on pep, if you try reading my post the next time you'd get that the point is you can't say these people are infallible compared to Internet posters on pep, but that you know better than they do on ronaldo. Either professionals are infallible or they aren't. I don't think apart from the 08 season (and potentially the season before it) that fergie ever had the most expensive side in Europe or even a team you'd expect him to win with. I wasn't watching in 99, but I doubt we were heavy favourites that season.

Again maybe the best minds know more, but rio ferdinand said we should give ole any amount of money to sign and I disagreed with that. It's a very lazy argument to say, professionals say this and they know more so yiu can't have a different opinion when you have opinions on football that differ from these same professionals.

Again, about half of your posts over the last two years have been running down ronaldo, it's actually quite odd, I didnt expect so much obsession, the rest are praising messi, pep and city players and hardly any about united, so you seem to have an extreme bias yourself.

I haven't said pep is poor or even average, I've said he hasn't done anything as impressive as klopp or simeone, he's done a very good job at city, but nowhere near enough for GOAT for me