That's why i specified that i was not looking for an underdog tale but playing on a fairly even playing field. That's the difference between him and Fergie seeing off Mourinho spending mental amounts of money at Chelsea and City during the same during his tenure.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
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They did, but I'd say it was far more of a challenge than taking over bayern or City was
Maybe im a bit confused here but a challenge for whom?
Nobody said he was inheriting the greatest side ever. Nobody said he was inheriting probably the greatest player ever at the time either, but that doesn’t mean he made Messi into what he is. Nor did he create the other players he inherited either.
He certainly played to their strengths, but those strengths and traits were already being demonstrated by the Spanish NT, except he had the benefit of Messi to make up for the deficiencies of that type of game. He was blessed to be able to work with the players he had.
I don't recall many calling Tuchel one of the greatest coaches of all time 2 seasons ago (except on here, I'm starting to notice a trend).
Merson and Crooks are idiots, yes. But that doesn't negate my point. ]There is no serious football discussion, no club chairman, no actual coach (one with UEFA/FIFA badges) that casts doubt on Guardiola's credentials. Look, here's the manager of Inter prior to the final:
In modern football, there is before and after Guardiola
He didn't have to say that. He could have said Guardiola's done a great job getting City to the final and left it at that.
I could dig up more quotes like that from his peers, but I can't be arsed.
I'm not even taking a side here (there's no need to). It's just, all the doubts about his credentials reside on the internet on forums like these.
Imagine Guardiola being realistically available for any PL club, only for the DoF to say "yeah but I doubt his abilities to do something here"
It just wouldn't happen.Oh, and just because, $300 (it's up from $200) for anyone who can dig up a post predicting Guardiola's success at Barcelona in the summer of 2008, since it was so obvious in retrospect he'd do well with that level of talent.
I wonder if 1 can dig up betting odds from previous years.
I wonder if 1 can dig up betting odds from previous years.
Well for Ronaldo going to Madrid or Messi staying at Barca post xavi, iniesta and Alves, success was certainly less guaranteed than pep going to bayern that just won the treble or man city with limitless resources
Why do people have to have predicted it in 2008? If people back then didn't know the quality of Messi, xavi, iniesta, Alves etc. It doesn't make it harder to have won stuff with them. Unless you're suggesting that all those players wouldn't have won anything without pep
I didn't have to look far to find a good handful of puff pieces about how wonderful Tuchel is, and that was just 2 minutes on the BBC. Here are a couple.I don't recall many calling Tuchel one of the greatest coaches of all time 2 seasons ago (except on here, I'm starting to notice a trend).
Merson and Crooks are idiots, yes. But that doesn't negate my point. ]There is no serious football discussion, no club chairman, no actual coach (one with UEFA/FIFA badges) that casts doubt on Guardiola's credentials. Look, here's the manager of Inter prior to the final:
In modern football, there is before and after Guardiola
He didn't have to say that. He could have said Guardiola's done a great job getting City to the final and left it at that.
I could dig up more quotes like that from his peers, but I can't be arsed.
I'm not even taking a side here (there's no need to). It's just, all the doubts about his credentials reside on the internet on forums like these.
Imagine Guardiola being realistically available for any PL club, only for the DoF to say "yeah but I doubt his abilities to do something here"
You have to realise most football players and pundits are as clueless as the fans, and in many cases through a lack of education and grounding in reality, far thicker. There are precious few who really know their stuff and I'd bet most of those either become successful managers, or leave entirely and go to do something unrelated to the game. Either way, they're not giving their opinions on Sky Sports every week.
Listen, i don't think anybody seriously questions that Guardiola is a great manager. Possibly the best in the current game. But when you say he's as good as or better than all time greats like an Alex Ferguson or a Rinus Michels? No chance.
According to the people at Bayern, the people who ran the club, he was brought in to implement a methodology that can run throughout the club and set a foundation to change the way Bayern or a traditional German club usually played. They didn’t sack him, they wanted him to stay and even asked him to help identify his successor. You seem to live in the ‘00s whereby winning a trophy was enough to make you great. Chairmen and owners post Pep felt that was no longer enough for the elite of the elite. They wanted trophies to be the byproduct of dominant authoritative playing style. By that measure and the evidence of the people who actually hired him and who were happy with his work, he was a success at something very few were even trusted to do.
Yeah, silly me. Taking a team that had won the treble by beating Barca 7-0 to losing 5-0 on aggregate to Madrid, 5-3 to Barcelona and knocked out on aggregate by atletico was a massive success
Because if his success was guaranteed at least 1 person would have said, "Oh Barcelona are favorites to win La Liga, Copa Del Rey and the Champions League"... Just 1 post. That's all I need. $300. Shouldn't be hard
So in 2008 people should have predicted that messi despite spending lots of time injured in previous seasons would suddenly shake off his injury problems and then predict how much he'd improve and if you didn't do that prior to 2008, then you can't say, that in hindsight, winning with a team with xavi, iniesta and Messi wasn't perhaps the most difficult thing in the world?
Probably the decision makers at Bayern are silly and don't know enough about football or didn't see the results. They should probably consult redcafe posters
Do we really think Man Utd haven't had enough money available to do similar to what Pep has done over the past decade?
Well, yeah. If the league title is pretty much guaranteed, the only thing you can do better is to win the CL as well, and if that's not possible, at least win the league with a more pleasing style. But the latter becomes subjective, and opinions differ on whether Pep's Bayern were more fun to watch than subsequent teams like Flick's.
The decision makers at Bayern are clearly infallible and can't ever be questioned, like when they sacked Nagelsmann and brought in tuchel, right?
You can!
I just wouldn't call the task trivial or a foregone conclusion. It was a fantastic accomplishment and any attempts to downplay it as "well look at the talent he has"... Well, $300 for the simple ask
You may not call it trivial, but as a wretched veteran of these discussions I know what the internet zeitgeist regarding this topic is. Which is why the solution is to stop having flat earth discussions
People underestimate how bad a state we were in by 2014, years of underinvestment by the Glazers meant we needed a whole new first XI in every position apart from goalkeeper. We've been spending money but it's entirely different buying one or two players and slotting them into a successful team than trying to do wholesale rebuilds every couple of years
United didn’t have a great manager in that time. The better question would be how a great manager would have done at United with the same money. Or what Klopp (who is also a great manager) would have done at Liverpool if he had Pep’s check book.
Well I looked at the odds for euro 2008. Spain were 4th favourites behind Germany, Holland and Italy. That doesn't mean we can't say now, looking back, that Spain clearly had the strongest team. Just because something wasn't obvious before the fact, doesn't mean we can't look back and say it should have been
What team in history has ever won consecutive trebles? To understand Bayern's treble, you need the context of the previous year when they won nothing. Imagine a Bayern manager winning absolutely nothing in a season. The determination that brought to right that after losing on penalties at home. They were a team possessed. The chances of them failing to match that the following year's Champions League were quite high. United couldn't win the Champions League again in 2000, didn't mean the year was a failure.
It feels like you probably decided as soon as Guardiola arrived at Bayern, if he doesn't win the CL he's a failure, then never watched his team, and then concluded 'yep, told you so!'. Most of the arguments against Pep were decided 10 years ago, and it's as if nothing he can do in the meantime makes any difference to people who have made up their mind about him.
I mean it's not as simple as not winning a champions league. In 2013,that bayern side was talked about as one of the best ever, they'd demolished tiki taka, set a new standard and would be favourites for the champions league for years to come. Madrid went to Germany and beat them 4-0 there, it wasn't a slight drop off, it was a disaster compared to the previous season
I think he is the greatest coach for sure. He has consistently delivered success whereever he's been.
City had quite a tough run in the Champion's League this year but got through it all.
City had quite a tough run in the Champion's League this year but got through it all.
I never used the word fun, that is subjective. The aim was to build a style that ensures consistent dominance and authority through controlling space and possession with potency. The people in charge of the biggest clubs identified this as the best way to consistently compete and win major trophies and he was/is the best at implementing that. By that measure, he did succeed. It is why they and City and many others were happy to overlook any current success with Heynckes and Pelligrini in exchange for a playing style that will ensure continuous succuess. Many managers could extract the best out of a team for one or two seasons like Mourinho, Conte, Ancelotti and few others but only he could build a team that can have continuous success because what he implements is sustainable. Fun or not is purely subjective on each individual’s sensibilities and can’t really be discussed or debated.
It's not just about money. Any established club would've found it very risky to devote years behind the scenes to hire one coach. However, City were just building the club up from midtable and so decided to lay the foundations for Pep well in advance by hiring the right people from Barcelona.
City were happy to make a bunch of mistakes in the transfer market in the early years and zeroed in on key players like KDB, Sterling. They prepared the club for Pep's arrival and of course he didn't disappoint. It's easy to say in hindsight that since we had the money, we should also have put such a strategy in place as soon as we got thrashed in the second CL final. Sadly sport doesn't work like that.
They are if we are to assess whether they’re happy with what they paid for. They sacked the people who sacked Nagelsmann. They weren’t happy with that. They got the essential thing they wanted from Pep and were happy to continue. There is no manager in the modern era who has been as wanted and never close to being questioned by the people who are actually in charge.
Pep would have won 2-3 leagues here with the same money. He would have got rid of the players who couldn't play football, and got in ball-players. In a year, his team would have been the exact same style as every team he manages.
City just won the CL final with a defensive line of Akanki, Stones, Ake and Dias. Dias is top-class but Ake came from Bournemouth, we could have signed him, Stones was a figure of fun for some, Akanji was sometimes seen as a weak link for Dortmund in the 'farmers league' of Bundesliga. It's a bit depressing to think what we would have achieved here, and how many of our players would be better coached to become better players. He wouldn't have won every league against Abu Dhabi money, but he would have made his mark far more than any manager since Ferguson.
Pep also probably would have won the league more often than Klopp has at Liverpool, I think with eight years to work with he would have won at least two titles, without competing against a version of himself at City. The standard would be lower to win it and he would still have had Michael Edwards to pick out the gems, Liverpool have had some really good players play for them last 6 or 7 years. Would he have got to 3 CL finals, I'm not so sure, Klopp's football suits two-legged cup competitions, whereas Guardiola's suits the relentless nature of a league.
But I'm not judging pep on whether a few people at Bayern were happy with what they paid for, I'm judging him based on could other coaches have replicated his success with the same resources and I think they could have. You might disagree and that's fine, but I don't think winning three league titles with bayern Munich, who've won another 7 in a row since he left, and no European success, was something no other coach could have done
He's clearly the best coach/tactician of all time, basically revolutionized how football has been approached since coming in with Barca. Is he an overall greater manager than Fergie? I don't know. It's tough not to hold against him that he's basically taken frontrunners for all of his jobs. You could argue his best achievement is actually fixing Barca and turning them into the powerhouse they became. But at the same time had 3 of the 20 greatest players to ever kick a ball to build around right from the start, when all were entering their primes. Honestly it would have been more interesting if he had just been a Barca lifer to see how he'd be dealing with the issues that the club has come under in recent years post Messi.
Just once I'd love to see him take not an obvious job and succeed, because that would make him far and away the GOAT manager. But for now I have trouble naming him that.
Just once I'd love to see him take not an obvious job and succeed, because that would make him far and away the GOAT manager. But for now I have trouble naming him that.
Absolutely (I remember reading a post from @Balu at the time going into more detail). It was like they funneled the disappointment of the previous season (losing the Bundesliga to Klopp again, AND losing the CL final AT THEIR OWN STADIUM to probably (look away @WeePat) the worst winner in the last 11 years) into every game that season. People look at the Barcelona tie as proof but honestly I prefer the Bayern - Juventus ties, where they simply swatted away a strong Italian side without breaking a sweat.
And what is annoying (well not annoying, just predictable) is that people take that outlier season from Heynekes and treat it like the summary of his tenure at Bayern, not the high mark of 2 seasons where he Leverkusen'ed the first.
Has nothing to do with money, has to do with structure and decision making. For all of the credit Pep gets (and he deserves it all), people forget that City have had an elite transfer structure as well as having the best academy in the world. THAT's where the money spent has paid dividends. It's not just that they have an unlimited checkbook, it's that they are still operated the proper way. They don't over pay for players, they strike and make deals quickly and effortlessly, and they sell players when many think they shouldn't. It's basically the antithesis of what we have done for the past decade: we get taken to the cleaners routinely on fees, are brutally inefficient in how we do business, hardly ever get a decent fee for a sale because we hold onto players for far too long, and have let the infrastructure of the club slowly rot for 15 years.
People can say Pep would have won leagues here but I'm not so sure. Maybe we get 1, but there's a reason Pep has only gone to clubs with elite structure from the top down, because he knows certain places would just hamstring him and limit the actual impact he can make
Guardiola is in the conversation because he is doing something that Fergie and Rinus Michels couldn't: winning many trophies AND changing football. Fergie was absolutely brilliant at doing the former but didn't change how football was played. Michels changed football but didn't win many trophies. Guardiola is probably the only manager who has won over 20 big trophies AND changed football. This doesn't make him *the* greatest, but there are good reasons to think he's up there with the very best.
Barca 08 didn’t lose a single game in the CL that season until they met us.
Admittedly we were also by far the best team they had met - and I believe they would have lost to all the other English CL teams that season as well as they were all very good - but a side that reaches a CL semi unbeaten can’t just be an average side, especially not a side with as many good/great players as they had. Their team in the 08 semi man for man was probably better than our team.
However their coach reached his peak with that team in 2006 after winning 2 league titles and 1 CL. They needed something fresh/different which Pep gave them, but the team was already very talented and experienced.
Admittedly we were also by far the best team they had met - and I believe they would have lost to all the other English CL teams that season as well as they were all very good - but a side that reaches a CL semi unbeaten can’t just be an average side, especially not a side with as many good/great players as they had. Their team in the 08 semi man for man was probably better than our team.
However their coach reached his peak with that team in 2006 after winning 2 league titles and 1 CL. They needed something fresh/different which Pep gave them, but the team was already very talented and experienced.
Fecking bald cheating doped up cnuting feck.
Might as well praise ben johnson for that dope-crazed run at seoul '88. Or lance armstrong for his chemically boosted sprint leaving everyone else standing on the l'alpe huez in 2001.
Or maybe, lets not. Maybe lets actually praise the great coaches who developed revolutionary systems leading to great teams without having brute-doped the opposition into submission. Like michels, lobanovskiy, happel, munoz, guttman, paisley, shankly, ferguson, sacchi.
Might as well praise ben johnson for that dope-crazed run at seoul '88. Or lance armstrong for his chemically boosted sprint leaving everyone else standing on the l'alpe huez in 2001.
Or maybe, lets not. Maybe lets actually praise the great coaches who developed revolutionary systems leading to great teams without having brute-doped the opposition into submission. Like michels, lobanovskiy, happel, munoz, guttman, paisley, shankly, ferguson, sacchi.
Exactly but it's been used against him a lot since.
Would they have been shit players without him? No, but bar Messi would they have reached the sheer level they did (undebatably the best in their area)? In my opinion also no.
While Spain did win Euro 2008 it was (correct me if I'm wrong) done with only two Barca players and a more direct style with Villa especially causing havoc. It wasn't until 2010 we saw the Pep/Barca effect truly on that team aswell.
I can tell you from experience average teams can win it let alone make a semi
But I do see what you're saying I'm not saying their a crap team but there was still a lot more uncertainty around them than it looks now in hindsight.
The question is why do you doubt he would have a similar impact on an underdog team? Just because we haven't seen him coaching one? What reasons are there to doubt his methods would work with other teams as well?
I admit that statement was a bit over the top. Still think he's got a better success rate than most other managers because it is easier for players to find their role when there's so much structure and organization. Plus City hasn't actually spent significantly more than many other clubs at the top, namely Barca, PSG, United and Chelsea.
We've certainly spent enough, yes.
But we're outliers when it comes to the general correlation between resources (particularly wages) and results, so make for a very distinct comparison anyway.
+ Puyol in Euro 2008.
And Villa was also causing havoc in 2010. He moved to Barca after the World Cup. But yes the midfield was Barca’s in 2010 + Xabi Alonso.