Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?

[Zehner]

He doesn’t have to go to Luton to prove himself, but he’s never managed a squad which wasn’t the strongest in the league at the time, and probably the world. He’s met domestic expectations with the clubs he’s managed, and arguably underperformed in Europe.

He’s never been in a situation where he’s had to overcome a stronger adversary and won, basically where his squad is seen as the underdog.

He coached Baca's second team to promotion before taking over the first team.

 

[The Hilton]

I would say Barca 2011 was considered better. Pretty much everyone was rating it as the best ever team, which I do not think it is the case with City yet.

Being boring to watch is a bit subjective and that can be debated to death. When I say quality of football, I mean dominating matches and essentially winning them. Klopp hasn’t been able to do that in a comparable scale to Pep, heck he wasn’t able to ever win a double league-UCL, let alone treble (and let alone be such a massive favorite). His teams are more exciting to watch, I agree, but the quality of football of City is way higher.

City vs Barca I was referring to quality of football in terms of entertainment rather than highest peak - that team with Messi was very difficult to beat, but dull as ditchwater, whereas his City team aren't nearly as bad.

I don't agree about quality of football - Klopp's Liverpool at their best were just as dominant as Pep's City on the pitch. As for their achievements, I'd argue that Klopp's achievements at Liverpool are more impressive than Pep's at City, as he's won everything there is to win, did it with a team who were a joke when he arrived and on a much smaller budget, and has been more consistent in Europe too.

 

[Bearded One]

Pep can be anything, but on the other hand he is a very good coach, perhaps one of the greatest after Fergie of course.

Many people do not respect his achievements because he always had a lot of financial support, but he always used these funds wisely. Other teams give a lot of money for transfers too, the difference with him is that he always buys quality players who raise the level of the team, unlike United, who for the last 10 years threw 1 billion for deadwood.

Whatever we say about him, even though I don't like him, he has proven himself to be one of the greatest coaches in history. I've always wondered what if he had chosen United years ago and we had provided everything he wanted. Maybe he would have won a treble with us by now.

The reason why that argument doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny is because he neither the first nor last manager to coach at the different clubs he’s been at - big clubs as you call them. Mourinho did the unthinkable winning with a small budget and then got a seat at the high table to prove to the world that he was the GOAT of managers but how did it end up for him at Real Madrid? Does that also count? Ancelloti got sacked at Bayern and went to Everton. You cannot just assume that a manger who had done well at Southampton or Brighton will replicate that success when he has his dream squad in PSG or Chelsea. If a manager sustains a level of success with the required support, the jury is out for the other managers to do likewise when they find themselves having the same level of support.

Pep's jobs were definitely not easy. It's just that at Bayern and City, he really had one main job - the CL. In that regard, he didn't succeed at Bayern and took 8 years to do so at City.

In contrast, Liverpool were not wanting for CLs and so Klopp had one main job - end the PL drought. He got there faster and cheaper, beating Pep along the way. Plus, considering the other two seasons where City beat Liverpool to the title by a point on fine margins, I feel that it's even debatable whether Pep is head and shoulder above other managers of his own era. Discussions of him being the best ever seem a bit premature.

The problem with singling out highlights in managers’ careers is that it leaves out vital information in order to sustain a narrative. Liverpool certainly gave city a run for their money but Conte beat Klopp to the epl crown in his first try. That doesn’t place him above Klopp for the singular reason that he couldn’t sustain that level of success.

Klopp is now going to be vying for Europa league victory in Europe having been beaten by Arteta’s Arsenal and Howe’s Newcastle. This doesn’t make any of those managers better than Klopp. He has achieved premier league victory but so has Ranieiri with Leicester and he has won the UCL even so has Di Matteo. That’s not to mention the fact that it took Klopp four years to begin to compete at an elite level having done away with most of the old squad and replaced them with his kind of players.

When Klopp’s achievement is being read, you don’t hear all these contexts whereas with Pep, there is always an added context which leads me to the conclusion that Pep is held to a much higher standard than the rest of his contemporaries. You will find the truth looking at the length and breadth of the manager’s career rather than singling out the highlights.

 

[Jeffthered]

This isn't City / Pep's best team, no way. Klopp's Liverpool with Mane and Salah smashing things up, Pep's Treble (League and Two Cup's), Mourinho with Carvalho, Terry, Makalele, (hate to say it, Lampard..) and Drogba... and a number of our teams, all are better than this current City side. The treble is a fantastic achievement, fantastic.. but I just counter that with a Premier League that was relatively, relatively, weak ( Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham... all quite average..) look at us, rebuilding... Arsenal aside, and they were never really quite ready.. this City team took advantage (and I commend them for this..) of a European Football where you have many big teams just going through transitions... Bayern, Real, Barca (even though they won La Liga..) PSG.. none of these teams were really great this season, all their manager's allude to this.

So well done Pep, and well done City... but this is not the strongest looking club scene, and they benefit from that.

Next season is going to be v v interesting, especially if they lose Gundogan and Silva. They will not replace the quality and experience of those two, no team can.

 

[The Hilton]

He coached Baca's second team to promotion before taking over the first team.

That was a promotion back to the division they'd been in the previous season, right? Relegated teams are always among the favourites to go back up. And while I don't know too much about the Catalonian regional group of the Spanish 4th division, I find it hard to believe that their are any opponents he faced with more resources than the famous Barcelona academy.

 

[Bearded One]

This isn't City / Pep's best team, no way. Klopp's Liverpool with Mane and Salah smashing things up, Pep's Treble (League and Two Cup's), Mourinho with Carvalho, Terry, Makalele, (hate to say it, Lampard..) and Drogba... and a number of our teams, all are better than this current City side. The treble is a fantastic achievement, fantastic.. but I just counter that with a Premier League that was relatively, relatively, weak ( Chelsea, Liverpool, Tottenham... all quite average..) look at us, rebuilding... Arsenal aside, and they were never really quite ready.. this City team took advantage (and I commend them for this..) of a European Football where you have many big teams just going through transitions... Bayern, Real, Barca (even though they won La Liga..) PSG.. none of these teams were really great this season, all their manager's allude to this.

So well done Pep, and well done City... but this is not the strongest looking club scene, and they benefit from that.

Next season is going to be v v interesting, especially if they lose Gundogan and Silva. They will not replace the quality and experience of those two, no team can.

I’d argue that in the premier league for example, so called “small” teams have stepped up their game. You now have these teams able to stand up to “bully” from the bigger ones. Even Klopp mentioned that these so called small teams are now harder to ride over. Liverpool had a poor season by their standards but that doesn’t deflect from the fact that city themselves have beaten everything that has come their way from Liverpool to a resurgent Arsenal to Bayern. Even if you look at the Italian teams, there has been a resurgence of sorts where teams like Napoli and Inter could have a genuine shout for the UCL crown unlike before. That semi finals match against Real Madrid who have in time past been average in the league but stepped in up at the latter stages of the UCL is among the best performances you’ll see in recent UCL showings.

 

[jm99]

You mean Mourinho will make Busquets Pique Xavi Iniesta and Messi play and win? No

Rather he would replace them with physical specimen who can run and defend with their lives. Retain Van Bommel, Marquez Seydou Keita sell Xavi Iniesta Busquets. Tell Messi to track back or get sold like Salah
Teach them how Barcelona is always an underdog

Chelsea was similar to this City and he never won the CL in 2 spells.
Barca was similar to Madrid and he never won the CL with them

Well honestly, this year's champions league was very weak. Yes its a good achievement for City to win it, but the two closest teams to them were bayern who barely won the bundesliga, and sacked their manager half way through the season and real Madrid, who finished 15 points behind a barca we knocked out of the europa league.

Mourinho got a decent performance out of players like ozil, deco, fabregas throughout his managerial career, no reason to think he wouldn't do the same with xavi iniesta and messi

 

[jm99]

Peak Mourinho would not have won a treble with Pep’s Barca for the simple reason that those were not his kind of players. He used a certain kind of players to achieve his success. There is a reason why there was a kick-back from his players at Real. They, being more expressive and technically gifted, were fed up with the conservative football that Jose was offering and the rest is history.

In any case, Jose achieved success using those methods at the time but right now he needs some tactical adaptation to be in the conversation for best manager.

The conservative football that set a goalscoring record in la liga? I wonder if people even watched Madrid under mourinho, they weren't defensive by any stretch of the imagination

 

[jm99]

We can extend it even further to see how ridiculous it is

Could Pep Ferguson Klopp have won the CL with 2012 Chelsea after going down to 10men vs peak Barcelona at Nou camp with Messi and Robben missing crucial penalties No

Dimatteo did it. So make your conclusions

Well, you can make stupid jokes, but the question I'm asking is, has pep exceeded expectations at the clubs he's been at given the talent at his disposal. Not with bayern, maybe a bit with City, and not really with Barcelona either. If you're going to be considered the greatest of all time, you should probably have won something that no other manager could have done given the same resources

 

[scottser]

I notice that he wants to leave City when his contract runs out in two years time and seek a fresh challenge. He is rumoured to want to manage an international team, with Ireland being his most favoured option*

*not in the least bit true

 

[Zen86]

He coached Baca's second team to promotion before taking over the first team.

Oh my mistake, he’s quite clearly the best then

 

[Zen86]

Well, you can make stupid jokes, but the question I'm asking is, has pep exceeded expectations at the clubs he's been at given the talent at his disposal. Not with bayern, maybe a bit with City, and not really with Barcelona either. If you're going to be considered the greatest of all time, you should probably have won something that no other manager could have done given the same resources

Good managers get their teams playing to the sum of its parts, great managers get teams playing more than the sum of its parts.

 

[jm99]

Good managers get their teams playing to the sum of its parts, great managers get teams playing more than the sum of its parts.

Right, and does pep get any of his teams to play to more than the sum of their parts? I mean you can look at klopp and say what he did with Liverpool was miraculous, I don't see pep being able to replicate that if given the same players and resources, whereas I'd imagine klopp could replicate pep's success given City's players and resources

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

SAF obviously.

I'd have Don Carlo there too.

Ancelotti has won 5 league titles in 28 years, despite managing PSG, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, AC Milan and Juventus, whereas Guardiola has won 11 in 15 years. And then if you're going to use the "underdog" argument, he won his four Champions Leagues with the two most successful European clubs of all-time. He's had plenty of money at his clubs also, among or most in the league. People will talk about Guardiola having such great players when Ancelotti has coached peak Zidane, Shevchenko, Maldini, Nesta, Pirlo, Kaka, Cafu, Ronaldo, Benzema, Modric, Ramos, Lampard, Drogba, Lewandowski, Lahm, Robben, Vinicius etc.

SAF is the greatest.

 

[Iker Quesadillas]

Well, you can make stupid jokes, but the question I'm asking is, has pep exceeded expectations at the clubs he's been at given the talent at his disposal. Not with bayern, maybe a bit with City, and not really with Barcelona either.

Guardiola wildly exceeded expectations at Barcelona.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Right, and does pep get any of his teams to play to more than the sum of their parts? I mean you can look at klopp and say what he did with Liverpool was miraculous, I don't see pep being able to replicate that if given the same players and resources, whereas I'd imagine klopp could replicate pep's success given City's players and resources

Pep has never finished worse than 3rd in his entire management history, Liverpool just finished 5th there for a start. Pep has won 73% of league titles he's ever managed. You don't think the most prolific league manager of all time could win one single Premier League title in 8 years?

With Van Dijk, Alisson, Trent, Salah, Mané, Fabinho etc? Considering that he would have still had Michael Edwards and Liverpool's transfer set-up. I fancy Pep would have won a few leagues.

 

[jm99]

Guardiola wildly exceeded expectations at Barcelona.

Well I think people didn't realise what kind of talent Messi was before he took over. Xavi and ineista had just been a key part of winning the euros before he took over, Barcelona gave us a ridiculously hard game over 2 legs despite us being the best side in Europe. But looking at the players at his disposal at Barcelona, did he really do stuff that no other manager could have? Given that vilanova set a points record the seaosn after guardiola left, I'm going to say probably not

 

[jm99]

Pep has never finished worse than 3rd in his entire management history, Liverpool just finished 5th there for a start. Pep has won 73% of league titles he's ever managed. You don't think the most prolific league manager of all time could win one single Premier League title in 8 years?

With Van Dijk, Alisson, Trent, Salah, Mané, Fabinho etc? Considering that he would have still had Michael Edwards and Liverpool's transfer set-up. I fancy Pep would have won a few leagues.

Peo hasn't finished worse than 3rd when managing the best squad in the league. He wouldn’t have had that at Liverpool. I don't think pep would have been able to get the same performances out of Liverpool, no. He certainly wouldn't have taken over Liverpool in the situation they were in when klopp took over and been able to turn it around the way klopp did

 

[Zehner]

But looking at the players at his disposal at Barcelona, did he really do stuff that no other manager could have?

Absolutely

 

[Mockney]

He coached Baca's second team to promotion before taking over the first team.

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times, without the context that they were amongst the favourites to go up that season, on account of only being relegated the season before and being, well, a Barcelona team in the 4th tier of Spanish football!

.... It's not like he was in a Champions League group with this side...he did very well, but it was essentially the same status relatively as all his other stints.

 

[Bebestation]

If Guardiola does it internationally then he will be goat just like Messi.

 

[kaiser1]

Well honestly, this year's champions league was very weak. Yes its a good achievement for City to win it, but the two closest teams to them were bayern who barely won the bundesliga, and sacked their manager half way through the season and real Madrid, who finished 15 points behind a barca we knocked out of the europa league.

Mourinho got a decent performance out of players like ozil, deco, fabregas throughout his managerial career, no reason to think he wouldn't do the same with xavi iniesta and messi

If you want to go that route

City beat Bayern and Madrid won the CL unbeaten

Mourinho Porto lost home and away to Madrid in the groups went through Man utd Lyon Deportivo and Monaco. Tell me a weaker route for a winner in recent years.
Mourinho coached Ronaldo and Kaka 2 players who won balon dor before meeting Mourinho plus Sheva and won 0 CL with them

Pep coached Messi Xavi Iniesta Busquets Debruyne into GOAT conversations

Did any of Ozil Fabregas Deco get into those conversations
Players like David Silva reached New heights under Pep as did many City players

 

[kaiser1]

Well, you can make stupid jokes, but the question I'm asking is, has pep exceeded expectations at the clubs he's been at given the talent at his disposal. Not with bayern, maybe a bit with City, and not really with Barcelona either. If you're going to be considered the greatest of all time, you should probably have won something that no other manager could have done given the same resources

Which manager would have done same with Barcelona. And made that Barcelona that finished trophyless 18points behind the league leader into one of the greatest side ever seen in football?
A side that top football owners saw and decided they need that style for their team

We see many managers try to copy Pep and his style how many do you see copy Mourinho. Or see Mourinho football and say wow! I want my team to spend huge money and play like this?

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Well I think people didn't realise what kind of talent Messi was before he took over. Xavi and ineista had just been a key part of winning the euros before he took over, Barcelona gave us a ridiculously hard game over 2 legs despite us being the best side in Europe. But looking at the players at his disposal at Barcelona, did he really do stuff that no other manager could have? Given that vilanova set a points record the seaosn after guardiola left, I'm going to say probably not

Tito Vilanova was a Pep continuity manager and would have been a fine manager in his own right if he hadn't got sick and sadly passed away. The following season it went to Tata Martino and he won nothing, despite having a front 6 of Busquets, Xavi, Fabregas, Iniesta, Messi, Neymar. So no, it's not as easy as simply turning up and winning like people say.

 

[jm99]

If you want to go that route

City beat Bayern and Madrid won the CL unbeaten

Mourinho Porto lost home and away to Madrid in the groups went through Man utd Lyon Deportivo and Monaco. Tell me a weaker route for a winner in recent years.
Mourinho coached Ronaldo and Kaka 2 players who won balon dor before meeting Mourinho plus Sheva and won 0 CL with them

Pep coached Messi Xavi Iniesta Busquets Debruyne into GOAT conversations

Did any of Ozil Fabregas Deco get into those conversations
Players like David Silva reached New heights under Pep as did many City players

Hadn't xavi and iniesta been key members of spain's first international victory in decades in dominant fashion before pep coached them? And yes he really worked miracles with Messi, he'd have probably been a Sunday league player without pep.

Porto had an easy run comparatively you're right, but they also didn't have a billion pound squad, so they did exceed expectations. His inter side massively exceeded expectations

 

[Big_Bro]

Yes he is. If he isn't yet, he will be soonest.

 

[Zehner]

I've seen this mentioned a couple of times, without the context that they were amongst the favourites to go up that season, on account of only being relegated the season before and being, well, a Barcelona team in the 4th tier of Spanish football!

.... It's not like he was in a Champions League group with this side...he did very well, but it was essentially the same status relatively as all his other stints.

No but they were hardly world class players either. And his performance there was so impressive that the Barca board not only decided to make him head coach but also complied when he demanded that they sell their extremely marketable superstar player who had won the Ballon D'Or just one season ago and was widely regarded as the best player in the world.

Anyway, all this is irrelevant anyway. Watching his teams play football should put these debates to bed. I mean, it is so obvious.

 

[jm99]

Which manager would have done same with Barcelona. And made that Barcelona that finished trophyless 18points behind the league leader into one of the greatest side ever seen in football?
A side that top football owners saw and decided they need that style for their team

We see many managers try to copy Pep and his style how many do you see copy Mourinho. Or see Mourinho football and say wow! I want my team to spend huge money and play like this?

Well Rijkaard had them underperformed but the quality they had was obvious to anyone who watched our semi finals against them in 08. One of the biggest differences to the next season was Messi being free of injuries, also signing dani Alves. Xavi and iniesta had shown their quality at the euros under a different manager. Pep's biggest decisions were sacking off Ronaldinho and bringing through Busquets, but someone with the quality of Busquets would have been brought through eventually. Then he made the terrible decision to get rid of eto'o and sign ibra for a fortune

 

[kaiser1]

Hadn't xavi and iniesta been key members of spain's first international victory in decades in dominant fashion before pep coached them? And yes he really worked miracles with Messi, he'd have probably been a Sunday league player without pep.

Porto had an easy run comparatively you're right, but they also didn't have a billion pound squad, so they did exceed expectations. His inter side massively exceeded expectations

Xavi was about to be shipped out of Barcelona before Pep came and made him the goat midfielder
Messi never scored beyond 15 league goals before Pep, in 4 seasons with pep he hit 50 league goals and immediately Pep left he never matched that tally

Messi without Pep has made 1 CL final despite playing in star studded sides

Without pep, Messi won't reach this heights just like Without Klopp no one will be considering Salah as a PL top 5 of all time.

 

[jm99]

Xavi was about to be shipped out of Barcelona before Pep came and made him the goat midfielder
Messi never scored beyond 15 league goals before Pep, in 4 seasons with pep he hit 50 league goals and immediately Pep left he never matched that tally

Messi without Pep has made 1 CL final despite playing in star studded sides

Without pep, Messi won't reach this heights just like Without Klopp no one will be considering Salah as a PL top 5 of all time.

Xavi had won the euros in the summer being the key man in spain's midfield. Messi had injury problems before pep came, not to mention was like 19 years old. It's a bit odd to put his improvement down to pep rather than maturing and being less injured

 

[Bearded One]

The conservative football that set a goalscoring record in la liga? I wonder if people even watched Madrid under mourinho, they weren't defensive by any stretch of the imagination

Oh yes I watched Real Madrid a lot then. Jose had them playing conservative but that didn’t mean they wouldn’t score a lot of goals because of their extremely potent attack. Or you don’t remember Real Madrid players being fed up with Mou’s style?

Right, and does pep get any of his teams to play to more than the sum of their parts? I mean you can look at klopp and say what he did with Liverpool was miraculous, I don't see pep being able to replicate that if given the same players and resources, whereas I'd imagine klopp could replicate pep's success given City's players and resources

“I’d imagine” you say but unfortunately football is not a linear graph. There was a time this forum was awash with threats to the United board for not courting Pochettino and I fell for it to but his stint at PSG has given a lot of people a better view. The jury is out for the said manager to get the support he requires and conquer the world. There’s no room for guessing. If you give Klopp a poor Liverpool team and four years to sort, he delivers for a couple of seasons and then every other underwhelming year’s performance is not taken into account. Are you being a fair judge if you give Pep the same squad and you are out to judge him if he doesn’t deliver in year one?

 

[Jeffthered]

I’d argue that in the premier league for example, so called “small” teams have stepped up their game. You now have these teams able to stand up to “bully” from the bigger ones. Even Klopp mentioned that these so called small teams are now harder to ride over. Liverpool had a poor season by their standards but that doesn’t deflect from the fact that city themselves have beaten everything that has come their way from Liverpool to a resurgent Arsenal to Bayern. Even if you look at the Italian teams, there has been a resurgence of sorts where teams like Napoli and Inter could have a genuine shout for the UCL crown unlike before. That semi finals match against Real Madrid who have in time past been average in the league but stepped in up at the latter stages of the UCL is among the best performances you’ll see in recent UCL showings.

Brighton, Brentford and Villa have had really good seasons for sure, and yes, with the cash and allure of the Premiership, the sense of competition increases... v v good players now regularly join mid-table Premiership teams (remember Coutinho? But I still question the quality of the league. Brighton struggled to beat us in some games for example, and we aren't fabulous, we are v much work in progress and there is nothing wrong with that.

There is a huge amount of coverage and hype, the football industry is staggering. But let's remain objective. Bayern, Real are going through transitions on the pitch, look at them, changing big players, management, executive staff, and Inter were not some great CL team... they were organised, and maximise their resources (like us really..) but that's also a team which is seeking to build.

City are an experienced package and were better than what I would contend, has been a relatively average European club scene. Consider thar Barca team with Messi, Eto, Ronaldhino, Marques, Iniesta, Xavi... they would wipe the floor of this City team. Our team of Rooney, CR7 and Tevez would smash them up.

This is a great achievement by City, but the competition at the v top has been better in the recent past.

 

[kaiser1]

Xavi had won the euros in the summer being the key man in spain's midfield. Messi had injury problems before pep came, not to mention was like 19 years old. It's a bit odd to put his improvement down to pep rather than maturing and being less injured

Pep left Messi when he was 24. Why did Messi performance start dipping after? Did Messis development stop at 24 immediately Pep left?

11yrs after Pep, Messi has only made 1 CL final. Same with Xavi and Iniesta

Messi has always played in a loaded team

 

[jm99]

Oh yes I watched Real Madrid a lot then. Jose had them playing conservative but that didn’t mean they wouldn’t score a lot of goals because of their extremely potent attack. Or you don’t remember Real Madrid players being fed up with Mou’s style?

“I’d imagine” you say but unfortunately football is not a linear graph. There was a time this forum was awash with threats to the United board for not courting Pochettino and I fell for it to but his stint at PSG has given a lot of people a better view. The jury is out for the said manager to get the support he requires and conquer the world. There’s no room for guessing. If you give Klopp a poor Liverpool team and four years to sort, he delivers for a couple of seasons and then every other underwhelming year’s performance is not taken into account. Are you being a fair judge if you give Pep the same squad and you are out to judge him if he doesn’t deliver in year one?

I don't think it was Mou's style as much as it was his usual personality clash. I don't think pep could have turned Liverpool into a 99 point team given ten seasons. Look at how quickly he discards 50m pound signings at man city, mahrez for 60m on the bench. Klopp has needed to have an unreal transfer hit rate because he doesn't get the luxury of just discarding players signed for 60 or 70m, no manager would outside of city

 

[jm99]

Pep left Messi when he was 24. Why did Messi performance start dipping after? Did Messis development stop at 24 immediately Pep left?

11yrs after Pep, Messi has only made 1 CL final. Same with Xavi and Iniesta

Messi has always played in a loaded team

Did his performance dip after? He had a better goal to game ratio in the league the season after pep left. The issue was clearly more to do with xavi only playing a few more seasons after pep left, and iirc Messi was injured the 12-13 semi, they lost to atletico in 13-14 and made the final in 14-15. So as long as xavi and iniesta were there, there wasn't a huge drop off, obviously any team would suffer as two of the best midfielders ever age out

 

[Mockney]

No but they were hardly world class players either. And his performance there was so impressive that the Barca board not only decided to make him head coach but also complied when he demanded that they sell their extremely marketable superstar player who had won the Ballon D'Or just one season ago and was widely regarded as the best player in the world.

Anyway, all this is irrelevant anyway. Watching his teams play football should put these debates to bed. I mean, it is so obvious.

I think he is certainly amongst the greatest tactical philosophers of all time, perhaps even the greatest..but the term 'manager' encompasses a lot more than that IMO, and it's a perfectly valid opinion the someone who has been the favourite in 97%-99% of his matches doesn't just get a free pass at it. There are people who can work miracles in entirely different situations, whose strengths don't align with Peps, and his not with theirs... People who have repeatedly improved crap teams, or gotten underdogs competing with the very best have done things as incomparable with his achievements as he has done things incomparable with theirs. It's like comparing teams from different eras. Even in this era I'd say Klopp has a very valid shout at playing just as attractive football, only with significantly less backing, and consistently with teams who weren't the top dogs in their league. The fact he's been stopped from being so dominant by Pep's City is hilarious for us United fans, but also just as (if not way more) circumstantial than 'managerial'

The problem with his City stint is that he's been playing a conceptual computer game for 7 years, and doesn't have to deal with the same things that all other managers do (sticking with an underperforming player on a long contract, depleted squad options, tiredness from lack of rotation, having Wout Weghorst etc) He's basically had a free shot at implementing his philosophy in a perfect controlled environment, which is great for him, but quite clearly separates him from how everyone else has had to manage and raises valid question marks about whether we can just chuck the GOAT label at him 'cos he's won X playing some nice stuff with everything in his favour.

 

[erikcred]

The problem with singling out highlights in managers’ careers is that it leaves out vital information in order to sustain a narrative. Liverpool certainly gave city a run for their money but Conte beat Klopp to the epl crown in his first try. That doesn’t place him above Klopp for the singular reason that he couldn’t sustain that level of success.

Klopp is now going to be vying for Europa league victory in Europe having been beaten by Arteta’s Arsenal and Howe’s Newcastle. This doesn’t make any of those managers better than Klopp. He has achieved premier league victory but so has Ranieiri with Leicester and he has won the UCL even so has Di Matteo. That’s not to mention the fact that it took Klopp four years to begin to compete at an elite level having done away with most of the old squad and replaced them with his kind of players.

When Klopp’s achievement is being read, you don’t hear all these contexts whereas with Pep, there is always an added context which leads me to the conclusion that Pep is held to a much higher standard than the rest of his contemporaries. You will find the truth looking at the length and breadth of the manager’s career rather than singling out the highlights.

I don't understand how any of this relates to what I posted. Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing or just using ChatGPT? What is "the truth"' and what does length and breadth of a career mean? What different standards am I holding them to? I literally quoted a few facts and said that based on them, it's not even obvious to me that Pep is definitely better than Klopp.

 

[11101]

He coached Baca's second team to promotion before taking over the first team.

People use this as some kind of proof he's started from the bottom. He got Barcelona B promoted back to the division they had spent 9 of the previous 10 years in. They were only in the 4th tier due to a freak relegation the year before, the last time they were down there was in the 1970s. It wasn't exactly an Aberdeen or Derby County situation he was faced with.

In short he, as usual, had by far the best team in the league.

 

[Zehner]

People use this as some kind of proof he's started from the bottom. He got Barcelona B promoted back to the division they had spent 9 of the previous 10 years in. They were only in the 4th tier due to a freak relegation the year before, the last time they were down there was in the 1970s. It wasn't exactly an Aberdeen or Derby County situation he was faced with.

In short he, as usual, had by far the best team in the league.

He usually has the best team in the league because he makes them the best team in the league.

 

[Camara]

If you want to go that route

City beat Bayern and Madrid won the CL unbeaten

Mourinho Porto lost home and away to Madrid in the groups went through Man utd Lyon Deportivo and Monaco. Tell me a weaker route for a winner in recent years.
Mourinho coached Ronaldo and Kaka 2 players who won balon dor before meeting Mourinho plus Sheva and won 0 CL with them

Pep coached Messi Xavi Iniesta Busquets Debruyne into GOAT conversations

Did any of Ozil Fabregas Deco get into those conversations
Players like David Silva reached New heights under Pep as did many City players

We didn't lose to Real away in 2004, we drew.
Also that Deportivo team was very strong, they lost 4-1 away to AC Milan's super team then trashed them 4-0 at home.
Monaco eliminated Real and Ranieri's Chelsea that in turn had eliminated invincibles' Arsenal.
Lyon was very strong as well in this era.
This wasn't 2023, there were several strong teams and the scales weren't as unbalanced back then.

Also this years' Bayern and Real were still contenders to the CL as some of the best teams but they're not truly great this year (Bayern almost lost the bundesliga and Real had a close race for 2nd with Atlético).

Mourinho coached Ronaldo and Kaká (past his prime) with Real, in the 6 years before he came Real had been eliminated in the R16 every single year.
He brought them to 3 semi finals, losing one to a super Barça, another on penalties to Bayern (way less embarassing than losing to a subpar Chelsea with super Barça) and Dortmund which was yes a clear bad result (team was already imploding before though).
Compare that to Pep's Bayern, in the previous 4 years they had reached 3 CL finals (winning one, the year before) and he didn't get to reach one in his time there.

All those 3 players were amazing under Mourinho, Fabregas had been good for a long while in a titleless Arsenal, Deco was with Rijkard for a while and Ozil had 1 good year with Arsenal... but this is... his fault? How?
Silva was already amazing before Pep. Remember that 6-1 for instance? City already had some very good players.
Pep's City had embarassing losses every year in the CL except this year, for such a long time prepared and expensive team is that good, 1 CL out of all that?

Pep has the merit of putting that super Barça team togethern (just note however that Barça had won the CL 2 years before...) but do you really want to compare the treble Bayern and Oilchester City to what Mourinho had been doing?
Mourinho put up together with pennies a UEFA cup + CL winning team with Porto, then went to Oilsea yes but they had won nothing before and had just starting the money flow, he didn't win the CL here and that is a fail.
Then he went to Inter and in Europe (in italy it was a formality due to calciopoli) in the first year was meh, sold his best player and put up a team to win a CL (again with not a clear favourite), eliminating Pep super barça.
What does he do next? One of the hardest jobs - go to a european humiliated Real (for several seasons) and to face directly against super barça. Real suddenly gets 3 CL semis, beats barça in the league, turns the tables later in his stint and barça struggles to beat real 1 on 1.
Then he goes to a meh chelsea, wins them the league.
Then a thrashed united, with terrible years and a terrible squad (compare this to Pep arriving at a very good City team that had been champion 2 times in the 4 years before iirc).
Mourinho wins 2 cups (and CL access) and Pep ends up 3rd (iirc). Pep is showered even more money to join his already quality squad. Next year Pep gets 1st place, Mou gets 2nd with a much much worse squad.
Mou eventually leaves Utd mid year in a civil war and goes to might be top 4... Spurs.
City keeps getting more and more money, wins some leagues, is beaten in the CL by everyone.
Now after years and years of managing CL winning teams he finally does it once. Yay...?

Don't get me wrong, Guardiola is a good manager and his style works very well if he has the players. But notice the big IF.
He needed 10 years in some of the strongest CL winning squad to win the CL (Bayern + City). Is this GOAT level?
He is an excellent manager that has been riding the circunstances, he never had to struggle with a team, he was handed great teams out of the bat (with the exception of the first year of the barça team he created).