The opinion you're replying to only gets attention because in social media, every opinion needs to be indulged and given air time to generate traffic. As you say, it's absolutely absurd to suggest a professional at the top of their field will not work in the best conditions possible. It's the same in every single industry and has been since the beginning of time.
Is Pep the greatest manager of all time?
- Thread starter Irrational.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Jamie (@Vault Dweller) are joined by special guest Anders (@Lyng) to celebrate the news that ETH is staying put! They also talk about the Euros so far, with special attention on England, Scotland and Denmark. They then finish with some transfer talk and the potential comings and outgoings at Old Trafford.
Are you being obtuse? Let's assume that's true which I am not sure it is. The question was when someone is in a position of power, where they can and are expected to win things. If Nagelsmann made such a decision, it's because he was learning his trade, same as Ten Hag when he went to Bayern to work under Pep. If you win a treble in your first season of football management and you get every big club in Europe fawning over you and offering you the moon to come work for them promising you the best conditions, what do you need to learn exactly? You've been fast tracked to what every other manager that ever lived dreams of reaching. It's like saying when Messi won that treble in 2009, he should have looked to challenge himself in a lower level to see god knows what.
I dont blame them either, but if people are going to claim they are the best ever, then there's gonna be push back. And if it being the best ever means anything to them, then they will see it as a challenge and not as a demotion. But even Pep himself the key to his success is that hes always had the best players available to him. It's his fans who get all weird about that fact.
True, but he went to Inter and won the treble. Could never see Pep doing that. He took the easy job at Bayern and still failed.
You wanted an example and was given one. Not everyone chases the biggest, easiest job as if it's just human nature. Pep seems more like the exception than the norm.
Which is the absolute opposite of taking the challenging job, though.
Yes, he went to underdogs Inter who had won the domestic title two the two years prior to him joining, one of the years almost getting to 100 points. Monumental challenge, that.
I don't think that is an example of what he was saying, though. RB Leipsig wasn't a demotion for Nagelsman. It was a step up. It was just less of a step up than Real Madrid. Which makes sense as he was learning his trade. For it to be an example of what Pep supposedly has to do to prove himself, Nagelsman would have had to won the treble in the first season at Real, immediately resigned and then taken over at Sevilla. For some reason.
If I called my millionaire cousin (who had an advantage with his upbringing but his success as an adult is purely down to his skill and competence) and told him I won't take him seriously until he takes evening shifts at McDonald's for a few years he'd laugh me out of the room.
He didnt go to Inter after Porto. He went to Chelsea and became the biggest spender in history.
Well instead of taking over daddy's company, he should try and build up his own company. That isn't really a stretch, it's just wanting to see him outside of his comfort zone that he's been in his entire sheltered life.
Do you hold it against Fergie that at no point he went outside his British comfort zone to test himself in the continent? There was a point when he won everything with us and we were so ahead of the chasing pack financially and he was getting offers from the likes of Real where winning the CL would have been an expectation. Do you think he shirked the challenge of being outside his cultural comfort zone?
Right now? Probably.
By the time he retires? Almost certainly.
By the time he retires? Almost certainly.
The point is, if you has a cousin who inherited a company from his Daddy then claimed to be the best businessman in the world because of how rich he is you'd rightly scoff. No-one expects Pep to take a lower division job just to prove a point but it puts a hole in his claim when everything he has ever achieved has been done with the best resources:
- At Barca: the best squad ever assembled (including the GOAT), where he won 1 EC
- At Bayern: a club who was singularly dominant in their country to whom the second best side was literally a feeder club, where he won 0 ECs
- At City: a title winning squad and then almost unlimited money, where he's won 1 EC
The cousin in your example would not get offers from the very best businesses in the world asking him to come run their company and promising him whatever he needed to make it happen. If he did, I would not scoff at all.
Its ridiculous to compare Sir Alex to Pep as Sir Alex worked his way up the ladder from starting in a part time manager position at East Sterlingshire on £40 a week to St Mirren then to Aberdeen then to Man Utd achieving success at all of them while Pep started out with the best squad in the world at Barca then managed Bayern who had just won The Treble and City who were arguably the 3rd best team in Europe having just been Champions of England and Champions League Semi Finalists.
He made Barca “the best squad ever assembled” as you say rather than meeting it that way. He took huge risks by trusting young midgets and ditching established stars. Few rookie managers would make such bold calls. Yea I think he underwhelmed at Bayern but that was simply because the standards with which he’d be judged was the highest anybody on the planet could be judged by. He took over a team that has just won the treble and so anything other than that feat would mean he would come short. Even if he did the treble again, he wouldn’t have done anything extraordinary as he would just have equaled the previous feat.
At City I think he is below us and Chelsea for net spend meaning that he is not even ahead of the lot in terms of fresh transfer money pumped to buy players.
I'm just trying to imagine the reaction of Real or Barca players to the hairdryer
He didn't, i made the comparison because he got fast tracked into a high status job due to his parents contacts (similar to Pep getting Barca so quickly because of his name) but the fact he's still getting those gigs 20 years later is down to his own skill and that alone.
Point i'm making is, I've seen first hand how good he is at his respective job and wouldn't have rated him higher or lower if he did a few "proper" steps first.
Setting aside your sarcasm, yes it was. Inter's domestic dominance meant that the minimum expectation was a league and CL double. And that's exactly the situation Pep had at Bayern. One of them succeeded.
Mourinho has obviously gone off the rails in the last decade, but until his 2015 league win at Chelsea his career used to fuel discussions like this one, about where he would end up among the managerial greats.
And was fired from Chelsea
The factor that stands both men out is the fact that they sustained a level of success at the top that their contemporaries either couldn’t meet up or shied away from. SAF was in his day but Pep is the one that has a claim on that right now.
There is something worth noting about “the best in Europe” tag. It’s not static but dynamic. There was a time Pep was best in Europe but lost that crown. There was a time Mourinho had a valid claim to the tag but right now he has not adapted himself to football’s moving tactics and as such he’s been left behind. There was a time Klopp could stake a claim on the tag. If I’m being truthful to myself as much as I wish otherwise, the man to which the accolade belongs today is Pep.
The point is challenges can come in different forms. It was also held against Messi in some quarters that he didn't challenge himself outside his comfort zone. The challenge can be in the eyes of some about testing yourself in a new environment once you've won it all in your current one. Managing a club that is not elite is one type of challenge, albeit one no one takes if they have a choice, it's usually done because it's the most conventional way to move up the ladder. But a challenge can also be testing yourself in a different and unfamiliar environment where your culture and methods that worked in the past need some refining. At the end of the day, the game is about legacy and footprint. There is no one greatest ever as everyone will have that one thing they never tried or has not proven. What is indisputable is what we see on the pitch plus the numbers and on that metric, Fergie, Pep and few others are all time greats and each of them has that status for different reasons which is the beauty of the game.
Pep is quite gracious in his speeches. He likes to deflect the glory to some other person. That explains that.
Before Pep Barca was not considered the best squad ever assembled, Xavi was seen as a misfit and about to be sold, Messi was a youth prodigy with lots of talents, Iniesta a good player, Busquets and Pique nobodies.
After Pep Xavi became the top 3 midfielder of all time, Iniesta became a top 5 midfielder. Busquets came into the Goat DM conversation
Now Messi
Messi went from a under 15 league goal per season to 23, 31, 34, 50. You might say its Messi natural development, but immediately Pep left he never hit the height of 2012 Messi again. Pep got the best out of Messi. He won 2 CL. Pep has left Messi for 11yrs and Messi has only made the CL final 1 time despite playing in packed teams since he left Pep. In 4yrs with Pep he made 2 finals
Without Pep, there will never be a Barcelona called by some as the greatest club football of all time. The team Ferguson faced and he said that was the worst spanking he ever got
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Good post.
Pep is a wizkid who joined at the bottom(Barca B team) and got fast tracked to CFO in 3yrs. Maybe he should step down from CFO and go back to factory floor and now work his way up like others to prove himself
Spender this, spender that. People here are obsessed with success while spending peanuts and managing shit players.
I've supported United since the mid 90s and have nothing but amazing footballing memories from my childhood but It's Fergie's own fault this debate is evening happening. I will not bother defending his footballing status anymore, whatever it's worth.
He sat smiling at the FA Cup final next to the Glazer leech who has milked this club for over a billion dollars, let our stadium crumble and allowed other teams to surpass us. Like standing by and watching while someone takes your home apart brick by brick, a home you spent most of your life building.
Fergie happily collecting a pay cheque to keep quiet and pretend everything is ok. Now his and his ex players records are falling on by one. They could have stopped the rot years ago, spoken out, helped protect their legacy but they chose money. United fans including myself owe them nothing now.
We are the ones who are tasked with defending Fergie and his players legacy. Debates up and down the country, online, in forums etc, we are the ones who put in the work to protect the clubs history. What for? So the people we protect can milk that history further?
I guarantee you, if Qatar buy this club, those ex "legends" will be queueing up to condemn the Glazer ownership but for now, they will wait it out and see what happens, protecting their pockets.
He sat smiling at the FA Cup final next to the Glazer leech who has milked this club for over a billion dollars, let our stadium crumble and allowed other teams to surpass us. Like standing by and watching while someone takes your home apart brick by brick, a home you spent most of your life building.
Fergie happily collecting a pay cheque to keep quiet and pretend everything is ok. Now his and his ex players records are falling on by one. They could have stopped the rot years ago, spoken out, helped protect their legacy but they chose money. United fans including myself owe them nothing now.
We are the ones who are tasked with defending Fergie and his players legacy. Debates up and down the country, online, in forums etc, we are the ones who put in the work to protect the clubs history. What for? So the people we protect can milk that history further?
I guarantee you, if Qatar buy this club, those ex "legends" will be queueing up to condemn the Glazer ownership but for now, they will wait it out and see what happens, protecting their pockets.
Mourinho is one of the best managers in the modern football game.
But Pep is one of the best managers in the entire football history, and a strong candidate for becoming the best overall.
I'm glad I witnessed both in their prime, while very different from each other, and Mourinho's career went down hill after Chelsea unfortunately, both defined the modern game and are two characters I doubt we'll ever see again in such sport.
But Pep is one of the best managers in the entire football history, and a strong candidate for becoming the best overall.
I'm glad I witnessed both in their prime, while very different from each other, and Mourinho's career went down hill after Chelsea unfortunately, both defined the modern game and are two characters I doubt we'll ever see again in such sport.
What was he supposed to do ? Throw a tantrum and stop doing his job as the manager of the team ?
Im not referring to his time as manager. Football was different then, no oil money, arguably less competition in the league, the glazers mis-management was less obvious during those years. Im referring to the period after Fergie retired.
Some people will argue, he is old, he did his part, let him rest.
1. He is still on their books, they pay our greatest ever manager to pretend everything is fine and keep quiet. Even if his achievements are slowly being chipped away at.
2. Yes he is old, but no one is asking him to riot or lead protests. His words hold massive weight, when he talks the footballing world listens. A few words would be enough.
He is not untouchable.
The entire post is a car crash. But regarding the bolded part, who tasked you with anything? You don’t have to defend anyone if you don’t like them or don’t agree with what they did.
Isn't he still part of the board, even if he has no say in what the club does ? Speaking badly about the board you're part of is something you'll never see. Only people from outside the club who has no responsibility at the club at all can do such things.
Exactly. I could understand these sorts of posts 6 or 7 years ago moreso - he needs to prove himself etc. The fact he has had 15 straight years of sustained success and people still think he needs to somehow prove his managerial ability comes across as bitter and idiotic.
Well this takes the cake. Maybe, just maybe Fergie can see that whereas the Glazers are far from great owners, we can't blame our failure on the lack of spending? Maybe unlike fans like you, he understands that the game is about much more than spending money? We have beaten City to multiple players because the Glazers sanctioned it. We literally took their targets because we offered more money and wages. The Glazers are bad owners because they made bad decisions on the footballing side of the club but they haven't spent less than anyone. I think Fergie has the right to choose who he sits next to because also, maybe the great man knows a bit more than you and me about the running of the club and what goes on behind the scenes.
Nothing lasts in football, especially in England where the landscape is extremely competitive. Dominance came in periods and no one could sustain it. Liverpool went off the grid for over two decades after being the most successful club in the land. We had two periods of success in our entire history with a lot of mediocrity inbetween. That never happens because of some conspiracy, it's just that it's a very competitive footballing nation that attract lot of money and talent and bad decisions will cost you at some point. A man in his '80s who forgot about football more than you or I will ever know maybe can rise above this pettiness and select his company as he chooses.
Spot on.
Oh undoubtedly. Playing with a dodgy hamstring for 2 months withtout it blowing completely until last night....
Is that not part of supporting a club? You argue the case of why your manager is the best, why your history is the most special? Its not a case forcing anyone to do anything.
My argument on that point was, we do our part, its almost a duty as a supporter but at what point do you say, ok I'm defending someone who couldn't give a sh*t about us or the club.
In regards to Fergie the argument being a car crash, I have a question for you. At what point are we allowed to start criticising him? If he came out tomorrow and said he thinks the Glazers are great and supports them staying, is that the breaking point? Who decides when his untouchable status becomes touchable.
For me that breaking point has come recently. The club as at a massive cross road and not only will Fergie keep quiet, he is happy to be the smiling face sat next to them at matches.
I'm sure Pep didn't imagine in 2011 that it would take him 12 years to win his next Champions League. He will appreciate this one but will know he didn't help himself over the last decade when Champions leagues was there to be won as City and Bayern Munich manager. Tactically City Last night wasn't great either and better side than Inter would have won.
I have read several times over the years that Fergie should speak up. Yep, the Glazers who are making a rich state and a multi billion company wait forever over a 5 billion deal, would of course change their views just because Fergie would speak up and as a result fans would protest.
wow blaming Fergie when he's the only Utd manager to have done something. Lets face it, he brought the young guns through while pep has played and bought his players and doesnt believe in his youth