Yeh what a way to degrade a normal football discussion Messi fanboy @mshnsh
Is Pele overrated?
- Thread starter UnofficialDevil
- Start date
I feel this discussion highlights generational differences in how the game is now perceived.
Is Pele overrated? Not a chance, one of the most gifted, and influential players ever seen. His goalscoring numbers are astonishing. And consider his influence across the footballing globe.
Pele. Cruyff. Charlton. Best. Di Stefano. Eusebio. Beckenbauer. Rivera.
Watch, really, watch the archive of these players, and you will note that they were clearly, clearly special. Their peers all state the same, you cannot simply dismiss that. For instance, could you really suggest George Best wasn't a special player? He was an absolute genius. Cruyff's game essentially provided the blueprint for Pep. Pep hismself acknowledges this.
All these players performed when the games were slower, players not as fit. Maradona too. But this does not detract from their greatness.
Such discussions must be framed within context, of course players are fitter now, with huge resources applied to players regarding nutrition, health longevity, treatment, recovery etc. The facilities (look at the quality of the pitches for example...).
Put Pele in a football environment we have today and his footballing instinct and sheer talent, and ability, would still shine.
Is Pele overrated? Not a chance, one of the most gifted, and influential players ever seen. His goalscoring numbers are astonishing. And consider his influence across the footballing globe.
Pele. Cruyff. Charlton. Best. Di Stefano. Eusebio. Beckenbauer. Rivera.
Watch, really, watch the archive of these players, and you will note that they were clearly, clearly special. Their peers all state the same, you cannot simply dismiss that. For instance, could you really suggest George Best wasn't a special player? He was an absolute genius. Cruyff's game essentially provided the blueprint for Pep. Pep hismself acknowledges this.
All these players performed when the games were slower, players not as fit. Maradona too. But this does not detract from their greatness.
Such discussions must be framed within context, of course players are fitter now, with huge resources applied to players regarding nutrition, health longevity, treatment, recovery etc. The facilities (look at the quality of the pitches for example...).
Put Pele in a football environment we have today and his footballing instinct and sheer talent, and ability, would still shine.
Lennox and Vitali Klitschko at their peak would smash Joshua. I don’t even rate Tyson that high but 110% Tyson’s speed could easily KO Joshua just like Andy Ruiz did.
We saw what Holyfield did to Riddick Bowe who was similar skill and size to Joshua so again I don’t see any easy wins for him in the 90’s generation.
Lewis would just plain defeat him. Lewis’s jab was the best shot in heavyweight boxing history. Joshua has proved nothing like that. He doesn’t hit as hard and his boxing isn’t the same level as Lewis.
A further back player like Platini would be amazing in the modern game. He looked tailor made for modern football.
Had close control, ability to beat a man, create and score goals. Plus played in Serie A in the 80’s which was a brutal league so would be defensively aware also.
Totally agree.
When you see clips of Pele, cryuff and best having the heels kicked off them and then watch our modern gladiators role around searching for pain after being touched , I don’t think many modern footballers would take up the sport let alone compete in it. Can you imagine Ronaldo and messi trying to dribble around some of the defences back then. Just watch clips of maradonna be literally kicked out of the World Cup in 1982 by every team they played.
I think back in the day, the sport was more geared to real footballers with real talent, now it’s more athletic focused. You wouldn’t see a lot of those players , maradonna Gazza, McGrath and best (who liked the gargle) make it as far as they did. Some might argue they would of gotten the support they needed but they probably wouldn’t make it far enough in the sport to get that support.
Back then players weren’t made for life with the pennies they got from football. I think they had more character and cared more for the game. Now it’s a job, they don’t give two sh*tes about the clubs or the fans. We are chumps to fill their coffers.
Generational discussions are interesting thought experiment but flawed in bias.
Maradona was fouled 23 times by Gentile in the 1982 World Cup match between Italy and Argentina. 11 in the first half. Imagine that happening to the players nowadays?
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It's a blessing modern football rules largely protect offensive players from this sort of defending "approach".
People shouldn’t be trying to shoehorn Cristiano into discussions comparing him to Pele, Pele was just as good of a goal scorer and on a whole another level when it came to playmaking, people somewhat down the line have misconstrued Peles thirst for goals as thinking he was an out and out number 9, when he was far more similar to Messi than CR7 and the likes.
Exactly and can you imagine what a player like maradonna or pele could do with the modern protections messi and Ronaldo are afforded?
I also think players back in the day had more character and this character drove them to succeed. I think ego and status seems to drive a lot of the modern footballers who have some sense of entitlement. Downing tools is now considered part of the game , it’s pathetic.
Yeah Pelé has the most assists all time (Messi has the most "official" assists but trails Pelé by 19 or so for the most assists all time.
His 1113 goal contributions (which speak to your point that he's more Messi than Ronaldo) were the all time record until they were broken by Messi this year.
Most goal contributions in a calender year: Pelé has the 2nd most ever behind Messi's 2012.
Thanks, perhaps it's not very far fetched to say that best was the most supremely talented player to ever don a United shirt(outside the likes of Duncan Edwards whom we unfortunately have no footage of), so if pele was anything comparable and even better than he sure as hell was something.
Pele once said that George Best was the greatest ever footballer.
George Best played his best football in the 60’s, ergo, he is null and void, didn’t you know?
There are few match compilations I know of, two from our own harms:
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/how-good-was-duncan-edwards.472215/
The vid in post #1 is the best compilation on him imo, albeit only from one half of the game. But you can see why he had the reputation he had.
Then there's two more:
(also only from 45 min of footage)
This one is still the only full game available, but Edwards was forced to play CB there, due to GK injury and no subs.
[Edit - there's a second full game now, England against none other than Brazil]
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Almost everything that you've written here is pretty ignorant to say the least but I'll refute the most obvious mistake that you've made — Pelé faced the best players across the globe on a regular basis:
ITALY
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
06-01-1960 3-2 1 AS Roma
06-03-1960 0-3 – Fiorentina
06-18-1960 2-0 1 Juventus Torino
06-21-1961 5-0 2 AS Roma
06-24-1961 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-15-1963 4-3 2 AS Roma
06-19-1963 0-2 – Inter Milano
06-22-1963 0-4 – AC Milan
06-26-1963 3-5 1 Juventus Torino
10-16-1963 2-4 2 AC Milan
11-14-1963 4-2 – AC Milan
09-05-1966 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-17-1967 2-1 1 Mantua
06-20-1967 1-0 – Venice
06-24-1967 5-1 3 US Lecce
06-27-1967 1-1 – Fiorentina
06-29-1967 3-1 1 AS Roma
08-26-1967 0-1 – Inter Milano
06-09-1968 2-1 – Cagliari
06-12-1968 2-0 1 Alexandria
06-21-1968 4-2 1 SSC Napoli
06-26-1968 6-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-28-1968 5-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-24-1969 1-0 – Inter Milano
09-24-1969 7-1 2 Combination Geneva / Genoa
06-23-1971 2-1 1 Bologna
06-27-1971 1-1 - Bologna
06-30-1971 1-0 1 Bologna
03-03-1972 2-0 – AS Roma
03-05-1972 3-2 2 SSC Napoli
04-29-1972 1-0 – SSC Napoli
05-01-1972 3-2 2 Cagliari
06-25-1972 7-1 2 Catanzaro
05-25-1973 3-0 1 Lazio Roma
05-28-1973 4-2 2 Lazio Roma
29 wins, 2 draws, 7 defeats
110-55 goals
41 goals scored by Pelé
76 % won
37 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 3-1, 1 goal by Pelé
SPAIN
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla
06-19-1960 2-2 – Espanol Barcelona
06-25-1960 1-0 – FC Valencia
07-02-1960 3-4 1 FC Barcelona
06-12-1963 0-2 – FC Barcelona
08-28-1967 1-4 – Deportivo Espanol Malaga
08-29-1967 2-1 – Malaga
09-17-1969 3-1 – Atletico Madrid
08-31-1974 0-2 – Espanol Barcelona
09-01-1974 1-4 1 FC Elche
09-03-1974 3-2 2 Real Zaragoza
5 wins, 3 draws, 6 defeats
30-34 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
36 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-2, 1 goal by Pelé
WEST GERMANY
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
05-27-1960 9-1 3 TSV 1860 Munich
06-01-1960 4-2 2 Eintracht
06-15-1960 4-2 1 Selection Berlin
06-03-1961 6-3 2 VfL Wolfsburg
06-26-1961 8-6 3 Karlsruher SC
10-20-1961 3-3 2 FC Hamburg
05-29-1963 3-2 1 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-02-1963 2-1 1 FC Schalke 04
06-05-1963 5-2 4 Eintracht
06-08-1963 3-1 1 VfB Stuttgart
06-13-1967 5-4 2 TSV 1860 Munich
06-17-1967 3-0 1 Selection Saarland
07-30-1971 3-1 – Hannover 96
02-27-1973 0-3 – Combination Bavaria
06-10-1973 5-0 1 Arminia Bielefeld
16 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
85-39 goals
29 goals scored by Pelé
84 % won
34 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 2 goals by Pelé
FRANCE
06-07-1960 5-3 1 Stade Reims
06-09-1960 4-1 1 Racing Paris
06-17-1960 3-1 1 Stade Reims
06-23-1960 3-0 2 FC Toulouse
06-07-1961 6-1 1 Racing Paris
06-09-1961 6-2 2 Olympique Lyonnais
06-13-1961 5-4 1 Racing Paris
10-17-1962 5-2 2 Racing Paris
03-31-1971 0-0 – Selection Marseille / St. Etienne
8 wins, 1 draw
37-14 goals
11 goals scored by Pelé
89 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 1 goal by Pelé
ENGLAND
10-22-1961 4-2 1 Sheffield Wednesday
09-22-1969 3-2 2 Stoke City
09-21-1970 2-2 2 West Ham United
02-02-1971 1-0 – FC Chelsea
02-21-1972 1-2 – Aston Villa
02-23-1972 2-0 - Sheffield Wednesday
06-04-1972 4-2 3 Newcastle United
06-13-1972 2-2 1 Coventry City
5 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
19-12 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
63 % won
47 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-1, 1 goal by Pelé
06-05-1959 2-3 2 Inter Milano
06-26-1959 7-1 4 Inter Milano
06-30-1959 4-2 - Genoa
06-01-1960 3-2 1 AS Roma
06-03-1960 0-3 – Fiorentina
06-18-1960 2-0 1 Juventus Torino
06-21-1961 5-0 2 AS Roma
06-24-1961 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-15-1963 4-3 2 AS Roma
06-19-1963 0-2 – Inter Milano
06-22-1963 0-4 – AC Milan
06-26-1963 3-5 1 Juventus Torino
10-16-1963 2-4 2 AC Milan
11-14-1963 4-2 – AC Milan
09-05-1966 4-1 1 Inter Milano
06-17-1967 2-1 1 Mantua
06-20-1967 1-0 – Venice
06-24-1967 5-1 3 US Lecce
06-27-1967 1-1 – Fiorentina
06-29-1967 3-1 1 AS Roma
08-26-1967 0-1 – Inter Milano
06-09-1968 2-1 – Cagliari
06-12-1968 2-0 1 Alexandria
06-21-1968 4-2 1 SSC Napoli
06-26-1968 6-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-28-1968 5-2 2 SSC Napoli
06-24-1969 1-0 – Inter Milano
09-24-1969 7-1 2 Combination Geneva / Genoa
06-23-1971 2-1 1 Bologna
06-27-1971 1-1 - Bologna
06-30-1971 1-0 1 Bologna
03-03-1972 2-0 – AS Roma
03-05-1972 3-2 2 SSC Napoli
04-29-1972 1-0 – SSC Napoli
05-01-1972 3-2 2 Cagliari
06-25-1972 7-1 2 Catanzaro
05-25-1973 3-0 1 Lazio Roma
05-28-1973 4-2 2 Lazio Roma
29 wins, 2 draws, 7 defeats
110-55 goals
41 goals scored by Pelé
76 % won
37 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 3-1, 1 goal by Pelé
SPAIN
06-17-1959 3-5 1 Real Madrid
06-24-1959 4-4 1 FC Valencia
06-28-1959 5-1 2 FC Barcelona
07-05-1959 2-2 1 Betis Sevilla
06-19-1960 2-2 – Espanol Barcelona
06-25-1960 1-0 – FC Valencia
07-02-1960 3-4 1 FC Barcelona
06-12-1963 0-2 – FC Barcelona
08-28-1967 1-4 – Deportivo Espanol Malaga
08-29-1967 2-1 – Malaga
09-17-1969 3-1 – Atletico Madrid
08-31-1974 0-2 – Espanol Barcelona
09-01-1974 1-4 1 FC Elche
09-03-1974 3-2 2 Real Zaragoza
5 wins, 3 draws, 6 defeats
30-34 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
36 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-2, 1 goal by Pelé
WEST GERMANY
06-06-1959 6-4 1 Fortuna Düsseldorf
06-07-1959 3-3 – 1. FC Nuremberg
06-11-1959 6-0 1 Selection Hamburg
06-13-1959 7-1 3 Selection Lower-Saxony
05-27-1960 9-1 3 TSV 1860 Munich
06-01-1960 4-2 2 Eintracht
06-15-1960 4-2 1 Selection Berlin
06-03-1961 6-3 2 VfL Wolfsburg
06-26-1961 8-6 3 Karlsruher SC
10-20-1961 3-3 2 FC Hamburg
05-29-1963 3-2 1 Selection Lower-Saxony
06-02-1963 2-1 1 FC Schalke 04
06-05-1963 5-2 4 Eintracht
06-08-1963 3-1 1 VfB Stuttgart
06-13-1967 5-4 2 TSV 1860 Munich
06-17-1967 3-0 1 Selection Saarland
07-30-1971 3-1 – Hannover 96
02-27-1973 0-3 – Combination Bavaria
06-10-1973 5-0 1 Arminia Bielefeld
16 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
85-39 goals
29 goals scored by Pelé
84 % won
34 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 2 goals by Pelé
FRANCE
06-07-1960 5-3 1 Stade Reims
06-09-1960 4-1 1 Racing Paris
06-17-1960 3-1 1 Stade Reims
06-23-1960 3-0 2 FC Toulouse
06-07-1961 6-1 1 Racing Paris
06-09-1961 6-2 2 Olympique Lyonnais
06-13-1961 5-4 1 Racing Paris
10-17-1962 5-2 2 Racing Paris
03-31-1971 0-0 – Selection Marseille / St. Etienne
8 wins, 1 draw
37-14 goals
11 goals scored by Pelé
89 % won
30 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 4-2, 1 goal by Pelé
ENGLAND
10-22-1961 4-2 1 Sheffield Wednesday
09-22-1969 3-2 2 Stoke City
09-21-1970 2-2 2 West Ham United
02-02-1971 1-0 – FC Chelsea
02-21-1972 1-2 – Aston Villa
02-23-1972 2-0 - Sheffield Wednesday
06-04-1972 4-2 3 Newcastle United
06-13-1972 2-2 1 Coventry City
5 wins, 2 draws, 1 defeat
19-12 goals
9 goals scored by Pelé
63 % won
47 % of Santos goals scored by Pelé
Average result: 2-1, 1 goal by Pelé
I agree that players back then was kicked to pieces more than now, but Messi is also one those players who was kicked and fouled constantly and rarely refused to go down.
What a terrible post. This is all baseless crap. Nobody is arguing these things, I don’t know what you’re reading.
The Brazilian league was one of the best leagues in the world from the late1950s until the 1960s. However, you can't overlook the European leagues like Spanish, Italian, and even England.
The late 1950s was a period of Spanish football especially Real Madrid. They dominated world football by winning 5 European Cups consecutively and had excellent players like Di Stefano, Puskas, Gento, Santamaria, and a lot of great Spanish local talents. Barcelona (the biggest Real Madrid rival), a team who beat Madrid two times in league competition and won Inter-Cities Fairs Cup two times during 1955- 1960 also had some all-time greats like Luis Suarez Miramontes, Kubala, Kocsis, Ramallets, and others were top-class Spanish talents at that time.
Italian teams during that period also had a lot of top players in several clubs like Altafini, Sivori, Hamrin, John Charles, Liedholm, Cervato, Ocwirk, etc. A lot of players in Serie-A at that time could also be considered all-time great-level players.
The first half of the 1960s situations were still similar to the late 1950s. La Liga and Serie A had many world-class talents both homegrown and foreign countries. This period IMO was not only the peak period of Pele but also Brazilian football too.
The late 1960s situations were a bit different. Madrid/Barcelona and Spanish football were in a declining stage, they didn't dominate in European competitions as much as they could before. Calcio Serie A also had a bit of a problem with signing foreign players after the WC 1966 performance. Anyway, Brazilian football was still at the level of excellence.
From the late1950s until the late 1960s, it must be between Calcio, La Liga, and Brazilian in terms of having the greatest talents.
I rate Ronaldo(R9) as the best Brazilian player in 25 years ahead of Ronaldinho, Neymar, Rivaldo, Kaka, etc. However, he has no chance to be the Brazilian player of all time ahead of King Pele. Even the second place has a lot of debates and controversies between him, Zico, and Garrincha.
Just based on these stats, the spanish teams back then even beat Pele’s santos overall, as compared to the English German French and Italian teams which mostly lost to Santos. The difference between the Spanish and the rest vs Santos is significant
errrr: No! For me, only he and Cruyff challenge prime Ronaldo as greatest ever (certainly in their positions)
No he's not, Pele was one of the greatest dribblers ever. He wasn't way behind anybody. The Maracana has a plaque detailing a goal when he dribbled from his own penalty area past seven players and scored. It is known as the 'gol de placa'.
Best, like Pele, was pretty much a marked man on the pitch. A few years ago I read an interview with Pele about the 1966 World Cup and said it opened his eyes to just how brutal the European game was. Interesting comment because the prevailing view in England at the time was that South Americans were dirty to a man. I saw Pele playing against Portugal. I was right by the touchline at Goodison. They kicked lumps out of him. One player - I think it was Morais but I may be wrong - kicked Pele to the ground then whacked him again. They strapped Pele's knee but even then they whacked him. The look on his face was one of pure pain and I felt so sad to see him like that.
Best got stick from the usual suspects. Chopper Harris is oft mentioned, but the two players I saw deliberately try to break Best's legs were Billy Bonds and a Derby player called Powell. A nasty pair of bastards they were. In one match at Old Trafford, Powell, who was about 17, went in with both feet. Best dodged him and said something which upset Powell who went after him. Big mistake. Wyn Davies was playing for us that day and a minute or two later, he laid Powell out flat after jumping for a high ball. Clough was on the touchline going mad but Powell played the rest of the game in a daze.
Super overrated. Even in his national team Garrincha was better
Rivellino is the one who is underrated. He scored in every match of the 1970 World Cup, for Brazil. Nobody else has equaled that.
That was Jairzinho FFS and neither he nor Ruvelino were better than Pele at that World Cup. The ignorance in this thread is comical, but also quite alarming.....
Do any non old people even care whether Pele is overrated? I don't even know what position he played (my guess is striker?). His achievements are also entirely impossible to compare to modern football. He basically played a different sport.
My Is Totti overrated thread was far better.
My Is Totti overrated thread was far better.
I think its obsession with Messi and Ronaldo being called the greatest that drives it since traditionally Pelé and Maradona have those titles.
I do, it’s important to conserve historical records and achievements and not have them ruined by myths.
Only by comparing and understanding the past can we appreciate current events in a greater context. What you’re suggesting is like saying what is the point of history because it’s impossible to compare things that happened in the past to now.
No he wasn’t.
The two greatest World Cup players versus the two greatest Champions League players. Problem is that the latter two also play in the World Cup and erm...uh...well.....
Also, the Champions League has existed for 30 years. What about the rest of European Cup history? Doesn't Alfredo DiStefano have some say as the overall king of European club/CL football, what with his 5 straight titles at a time when you had to champions (or title holders) to enter?
The World Cup on the other hand has existed in pretty much the same format since 1930. No dispute that Pele and Maradona are the greatest we've seen in that partucular arena.
Is Pele overrated? Well, a bit of course.
Most of us have only seen highlight reels, which will only show the top moments, so straight away we think that was the consistent level for his whole career.
It reminds me of when we used to see certain players who played abroad as so much better than our own, because of the mystique of only seeing certain show reel moments.
Most of us have only seen highlight reels, which will only show the top moments, so straight away we think that was the consistent level for his whole career.
It reminds me of when we used to see certain players who played abroad as so much better than our own, because of the mystique of only seeing certain show reel moments.
Have you considered he was even better than that? A lot of Pele’s best moments (including his best goal) weren’t even caught on camera. He was at a consistent level pretty much his whole career as contemporary reports and records would say.
This isn’t some obscure nobody from YouTube we are talking about, it’s Pele, one of the most famous sporting figures of the 20th century.
I see what you mean on the mystique thing but players from abroad were generally better years ago than English league players. The difference now is the Premier League is the best league. Reputations don’t build on nothing.
I think that works both ways though. From what I've seen the full games of Pele don't show him in any worse light.
The thing is that his all-time Youtube compilation is nowhere near as compelling as it could be had cameras captured all the great things he's done. For example, the 3 World Cup knockout games from 1958 provide a stronger compilation than most players have over the course of their lifetime. Imagine instead of 3 games, we got to see him fully tearing it up in hundreds of games at club level around this time.
I'd say it's different when looking back at defenders who we tend to judge on their feck-ups as opposed to positive moments. No footage = no feck-ups.
I entirely agree on the subject of history. I'm a giant history nerd
Though not on the subject of comparing players of different era's. The parameters are simply too different. Pele's talent isn't in doubt, but who knows whether he'd have had the stamina and physical prowess for today's game? There's no way of knowing.It's a bit like asking if ancient Rome would've been able to conquer the modern world. And while I'm sure people on Reddit would love to debate that, I think it's a bit moot.
Anyway, on topic, no I don't think Pele is overrated.
This made me remember the Baddiel and Skinner fantasy football show from the mid 90s.
They had a little section called something like Pele was crap, and dug out loads of clips of him messing up shots, passes etc.
Obviously meant as an ironic feature, but still entertaining nonetheless.
It wasn't 'loads', it was a handful and they were all from the 1970 World Cup. They did something similar with Rivelino and a couple of other players. The clips were preceded by a song to the tune of 'Back Home' (ii.e. just like the FFL theme music) which opined that Pele was 'worse than Jason Lee'. The less said about that programme's association with Jason Lee, the better......
He is not overrated, he is underrated. He is alone at the highest tier of all generational players. There were, and will be generational players like CR, and Messi. Such as Maradona, Best, Cryuff, Platini, etc. But no one ever dominated world football as much as Pele did. We say CR is a mentality freak, but Pele is on another level.
That show was shite and the racism towards Jason Lee was a disgrace. They attacked the guy relentlessly