True but not sure how that’s relevant. Dismissing the achievements of players in a past era b/c the game was played differently is silly across any sport
Is Pele overrated?
- Thread starter UnofficialDevil
- Start date
Yes but there is also regional league argument back then in Brazil too. Basically they have games playing against the top players at Brazil, they probably also many games playing against absolutely dogshite at Brazil too.
Interesting, I may check this out thanks.
Perhaps it's partly to do with the heavier balls and dodgy pitches in Pele's era. I think this makes players look slower and less fluid, and hence less technically impressive, than modern players, even if they actually aren't.
I think that is a factor for sure.
He played 1363 games in 80 different countries, scoring 1279 goals. There's is literally no reasoned argument against him in terms of opponents he faced or levels he played at. Averaged near a goal a game across his career and at international level as well (and in the World Cup and Copa Ameriva too of course). And he wasnt even a number 9!!! How many players have scored a rhousand goals (or 700+ if you believe that horsecrap about 'official goals') that are not out and out strikers? Even 600+? I can think ot Messi and Puskas and that's it. Is there anyone else?
The issue is that people don't understand that football now is different from football then. Brazil is a massive country and nationwide tournaments were only made possible by improvements in travel technology. Such tournaments were in their infancy during Pele's time. Hence the state leagues, which were strong enough to produce all conquering club and internationatel sides.
Apparently I am not questioning him capable of scoring/performing against toughest opponents during his era. He is clearly GOAT in my mind as he was well proven at all levels.
But just that for the sake of discussion on the topic, he could have been stat padding more than anyone else in game, having spending majority of his career playing week in week out in regional league, against some of dogshite opponents. That doesn't make him any less of a player though.
If anything he is underrated by the younger generation
The regional competitions argument is ridiculous. The campeonato paulista (Sao Paolo) or campeonata Carioca (Rio de Janeiro) were stacked with top teams. Sure they were officially regional but many of the best teams of Brazil were in those 2 states. They even held a kind of "supercup" between the best teams of the big 2 states., namely the Rio-Sao Paolo tournament.
In the paulista league you had teams like Santos, Palmeiras, Sao Paolo and corinthians. That's 4 huge teams which is even more than the usual European league. The French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch or German leagues don't have 4 equally strong teams...
If this doesn't convince anyone you also had a national Brazilian cup competition and of course the Libertadores cup which then was quality wise the equivalent of the European cup.
The regional competitions argument is ridiculous. The campeonato paulista (Sao Paolo) or campeonata Carioca (Rio de Janeiro) were stacked with top teams. Sure they were officially regional but many of the best teams of Brazil were in those 2 states. They even held a kind of "supercup" between the best teams of the big 2 states., namely the Rio-Sao Paolo tournament.
In the paulista league you had teams like Santos, Palmeiras, Sao Paolo and corinthians. That's 4 huge teams which is even more than the usual European league. The French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch or German leagues don't have 4 equally strong teams...
If this doesn't convince anyone you also had a national Brazilian cup competition and of course the Libertadores cup which then was quality wise the equivalent of the European cup.
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Pele thrived when he had quality around him. His all round game meant he would get the best out of the quality around him both maximizing his and their output. While there is no question his individual traits were excellent, he was much more of a team oriented player rather than a change the game on his own kind of maestro.
Same goes for Messi. Which is why Diego has the cult status which even Pele's multiple world cups couldn't match among football history fans.
I don't think he would win the WC with the 1986 Argentina.
Jeez. If football was so easy, many would have broken his records. But no, he was just too good for that generation of football. And with what defenders were allowed to do in the old times, it makes it all the more awesome.
What makes them dohshite opponents? Brazil produces more good footballers even to this day than any other country and that period was a golden time for Brazilian football.
Everything you have written here is wrong IMO. Pele not a change the game on his own kind of maestro? Why do you think that?
The actual number of goals he scored and how many he scored vs regional teams is debatable. He is absolutely one of the 3 greatest ever (along with the 2 Argentines) and truly speaking there is no need to bring up those dubious numbers to justify that.
There's nothing dubious about those numbers, it's literally a Guiness World Record. Perhaps you should raise your objections with them?
Talking about Pele's technique, people maybe argue that his technique wasn't on the level of Diego Maradona( Pele's technique is still rated as one of the best in this sport). I agree with this statement too. Maradona had a more clean first touch, a bit smoother in his control and more flamboyant in his skill. However, I've never seen anyone can do sombrero skill as smooth and efficient as Pele. He was the master of this art, plus he had a big advantage in that he was a two-footed player.
You'd do well to share evidence of that at the big stage where he scores something like Diego did against England.
Only the Caf has threads like these.
Gold.
Gold.
They are dubious numbers.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1099349-top-5-things-pele-does-not-want-you-to-know
You're kidding right? What bigger stage is there than the World Cup final? And that goal and the Belgium goal are among a handful that Diego scored like that in his career. Pele scored dozens of goals like that. The closest in the World Cup was against Mexico.
That is a well known piece of shite article by a very poor media outlet. Again, take it up with the Guineess committee, I'm sure they'll hear your pleas.
Great, so shouldn't be that hard for you to share a couple of them here unless you are just pulling stuff out of the arse.
Mate, I'm not gonna do all your work for you, it's as simple as searching 'Pele dribble goals' on youtube.
Have seen enough of his goals . Anyways, no point discussing this to death over text rather than evidence, will leave this here.
Absurd question. Pele was magnificent. He would easily scoop up balloons of gold today, at least during his Prime years of 18-30. After 30 he was still a force but of course in decline. I can’t believe threads like this even exist, although online forums are meant for discussion and re-valuations.
Well he was given 7 retrospectively.
He would have, and as @Andrade pointed out, he was awarded 7 ballon d'ors by France Football, which would be tied for most all time with Messi.
People saying football wasn't developed back then that much in comparison to today's game, you realize this applies to all other players in this age, right ? And he still stood out among them.
Game is too different to compare. Pitches were far worse, which made them a lot more tiring to run on and far tougher to play. Footballs were heavier; football equipment was heavier. There were no substitutions. Foul thresholds were far higher. A modern player being dumped back then would be crying within a minute.
I mean, do you even understand what is it like playing in regional league?
If we are playing one today, we could be facing top opponents like City this week, then possibly dogshite opponents like Salford City on the other weeks. Leagues are basically organised in regional basis, which means clubs will be facing all the local teams, and could include all the dogshite too (depends on overall strength of your region).
Whereas other top teams located far away from your region (ie Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal), you don’t even get the chance to play against them under regional league format. So we will be only playing against a few PL teams from our region, a few from Championship, and possible a few from League One or Two too under such format.
National league system was only implemented in Brazil after 70s. Hence for majority of Pele career, he was playing in sub standard format of league system.
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then just compare to players of his era. Don't cross era cos that is very silly too.
we are saying the same thing...
I want to be respectful, but this is a silly post, Brazil is about 5 times the size of the UK, which is why the regional leagues existed. There is no evidence whatsoever that the regional leagues were weak compared to the standards of the time. None at all. Again, Brazil has always had more good footballers than any other country.
Well I am afraid most people don’t share the same view as yours in terms of regional league standard. Having more good footballers have nothing to do with playing against more dogshite opponents from same region. While having larger country size does not guarantee the quality all around are just as good.
You literally have no idea what you're talking about. The Campeonato Paulista at the time contained 5 of Brazil's most famous and storied clubs: Santos, Palmeiras, Corinthians, Sao Paulo and Botofago. Also, nationwide tournaments had started during Pele's time, which he also competed in. Please stop this nonsense. Why are Ronaldo fans so bereft of football knowledge?!?!
Saw him play in the 1966 World Cup. Driving down the East Lancs with my dad and granddad, I couldn't believe I was actually going to see Pele on the flesh. I imagine that every youngster in the crowd that day - and there were a lot - felt the same way. Every time he touched the ball we expected magic and we weren't disappointed when he scored the first goal of the game. But after that, against Hungary and Portugal, he was kicked from pillar to post. Stop Pele and you stop Brazil was how one commentator described it and they did it by any means necessary.
Is this the Bulgaria game you are describing? I've watched the film of that game but it must have been amazing to see it live. And of course you're right about Portugal, that kind of savagery wouldn't be allowed today. Also, there were no substitutes so he was just limping around on the pitch.
You mean there is only 5 teams in the league? Do you even know what you are talking about?
Yeh if you can’t get your arguments right, let’s just start the names calling.
Your breadth of football knowledge must be something, im assuming you've seen best and and sir Bobby as well, how did they compare? (Obviously a small sample size but still).
You can't compare generations looking back at players. This happens all the time in tennis as well. People set the bar for the successors to break it.
No of course I'm not saying there's only 5 teams in the league
I'm not being funny here, this is a serious question, no disrespect intended. Is English your first language?
I think you are having hard time understanding simple arguments here.No of course I'm not saying there's only 5 teams in the league
I'm not being funny here, this is a serious question, no disrespect intended. Is English your first language?
And I’m not being funny here, are you are a grown up?