I think that's head in the clouds thinking. I don't see how you can claim that tbh.
Is our squad average? Yes.
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Our form since ETH has been relieved of his duties is more in line with what we should see long term. Despite being absolutely gash previously we're a mere 4 points away. Not an outlandish claim. I'll retract the "comfortably" part, but we should be making a really good stab at it.
We have not played well though, we beat 2 poor teams, without playing well in any match, and we drew against Chelsea who played better than us.
And you think that shows top 4? Looking at the table I would say that shows top 10.
I’m really not sure. We’ve not played particularly well. Underlying stats for these games gives me little hope we can push into the top four and opposition has been average in 3/4 games.
we have a good squad, just completely bereft of confidence
I agree here. At this point, I really think different people have vastly different understandings of the terms "form", "quality", "standard", "result" and "performance". Because from my point of view, we haven't seen anything different in the last few games - the same football but with Casemiro AND Ugarte in there and with better results.
Yeah but who knew having a midfield was important?
Well I am fairly sure many people know but there are enough teams out there who do quite fine without two players like Casemiro and Ugarte in their midfield. It is fine as a first bandaid but it also isn't going to cut it moving forward. At least if we really attempt to get back to the first row.
I thought at the start of the season we'd be comfortably top 4. Even with all our forwards being really poor so far, I still think we should be 4th by the end of the season. Our defence is good with deep cover. Our Midfield has some really good options, even if finding a balance has taken too long. I thought Hojlund would kick on this year but the lack of service is only half the problem there.
When I look at our squad I no longer see loads of players that aren't good enough. We have some coming to the end of their careers, and some younger players who may never reach the heights required for this club. But all are worth their place in the squad for now. Rashford being the clear exception. A player who should be in his prime but simply not delivering for far too long. So a new forward is essential. A quick one. Preferably can play centrally and wide.
So I am optomistic about the squad. I think it does have some decent depth and balance about it. Add some quality up front and replace Eriksen and Casemiro well and we could be challenging again in the next year or two.
When I look at our squad I no longer see loads of players that aren't good enough. We have some coming to the end of their careers, and some younger players who may never reach the heights required for this club. But all are worth their place in the squad for now. Rashford being the clear exception. A player who should be in his prime but simply not delivering for far too long. So a new forward is essential. A quick one. Preferably can play centrally and wide.
So I am optomistic about the squad. I think it does have some decent depth and balance about it. Add some quality up front and replace Eriksen and Casemiro well and we could be challenging again in the next year or two.
So it's different, but you're saying it's pretty much the same. How does that work out? It's a results business and we're actually getting them now, as opposed to sticking with a manger who was substantially holding us back from getting results. The standards have been so damningly low that I think a lot of fans are being overly critical of what this squad could be capable of.
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I swear there's some anti-de Ligt propaganda going on. I hear this nonsense from so many people. At least you didn’t add the part about him being "benched by Dier."
- He was absolutely fine at Juve, which is why he moved to a better team, Bayern Munich, who paid 70 million for his services.
- He was Bayern's best defender over his two years there and even made the Bundesliga Team of the Season. Fans were even signing petitions for him to stay.
Oh and labeling Mainoo as an average midfielder after, what, five games into his sophomore year? Come on man
It is the same football. Just with slightly different players. We haven't improved anything, we still offer chances to the opponents and we still are fairly bad in generating ones for us. This isn't even criticism, Ruud didn't have the time to change things. I just find it odd that people talk about us turning form. FFS, look at todays "result" - our goals were an own goal and two efforts with a combined xG of 0.06. There wasn't much to be really happy about because if that game is played again, the odds might change considerable.
Not sure what we are getting at here. I agree with you, the manager was a problem from a certain point onwards. But the players are a problem just as well. Plus as I have alluded to, some fans differentiate between result and performance. If that doesn't apply to you, thats fine, nothing wrong with that either. But in a low scoring game like football, results aren't giving you all too much in terms of insight, performance can provide with more. Pretty sure thats nothing you would argue against, wouldn't you?
This bolded part is just rubbish, really. You honestly think Leicester might get a result of the match is played again? Obviously performances have improved. Our star DM signing in the summer Ugarte had the most interceptions of a United player in God knows how long. Bruno is looking like a player again. Amad is thriving from not having a manager with embarrassing judgement. There's a host of improvements which are leading to positive results. Just because the club has been dragged through the mud the past year and a half doesn't mean this squad isn't capable of a top four finish.
Well I didn't say it was a close game or a fifty fifty. But if we play that match 10 times, there is a good chance that it ends with goalless draws more often than not.
Great. That is awesome. Just fyi - thats us catching up with the other teams in the league. Not us getting the upper hand.
I guess that stuff is subjective but I don't know what you are talking about. Feels like people were so adamant about ETH, that they are now so desperate to see change that they do. Wouldn't be the first time, was the same with Ole. Through 3 years... And it was the same in ETHs first season.
Honestly mate... Just watch different teams from time to time. I watched Brighton against City yesterday, this looks almost like a different sport. Even the Pool game yesterday was different - the intensity that is there on display would have you guys creaming for half a week. I am happy that you are hopeful and optimistic, why not, great attitude. But there is just nothing to suggest, that this team is capable of top four - look at what people are fawning over: Shaw from 3 years ago, Rashford from 2 years ago. Bruno from 3 years ago. Martinez best ball playing CB in the league (better not watch Konsa or van Hecke), Dalot best RB in the league... It is fine to be hopeful but lets not act as if thats the only and therefor the right way to see things.
The tactics we deployed surely made us look worse than we are. And maybe different tactics fall into place and it clicks really fast. But that isn't something we should expect out of thin air.
No - we just have a very young and thus inconsistent attack. The rest of the squad stacks up really well against most teams. Unfortunately the only senior attacker we have has mentally checked out for years for whatever reason.
This squad should be fighting for top four. Third spot should be the aim. Get a left back, midfielder and attacker in before next season and we should start thinking of top spot. Still hard to make up an opinion on Onana.
Squad is not good enough for top 4
We need a quality striker and a proper left back
We need a quality striker and a proper left back
He wasn't fine in Turin, not even close. He was slow, made silly mistakes, couldn't keep his concentration for 90 minutes. I know, i watched several Juve matches. That's why Juve sold him 20 million euro cheaper than the sum they bought him for. In Munich he had a decent season before he failed again and was being sold for more than 20 million euros cheaper than they bought him for. A the age of 20 he was the world's most expensive centre back, at the age of 25 he has average value. Juve paid 85 million for him and three years later sold him for 67 million. Three years. Do you think they decide to loose 18 million and get rid if him just because de Ligt was good? Nonsense. Bayern paid 67 million for him, and TWO years later they sold him 22 million euro cheaper. Do you think they decide to loose 22 million and get rid if him just because de Ligt was good? Nonsense. His first season was okay but the second was bad. So, in 5 years his value went down from 85 to 45 euros. You probably did not read the news, interviews but Max Eberl, the sport director of Bayern Munich stated in an interview that they were actually HAPPY to sell him as he isn't aggressive enough on the pitch, fell down in the pecking order as they prefer Kim and Upamecano instead. And you probably did not read what Rio Ferdinand said about him. He wasn't happy about de Ligt for exactly the same reason, the guy's value and performance is in constant decline since the age of 20. A classy player's value between 20-25 years should increase constantly, not decrease. Maybe not the best exapmle, but for instance Vini jr's value was 50 million at the age of 20, four years later it's 200 million. Well, he is definitely better than Lindelöf or Maguire so in this sense he was a good singing but still not a top team level. At least not yet, i hope ha's gonna improve under Amorim. Let's see.
We don't have enough goals for a top 4 team, but the squad is better than average other than that.
Having a quality, proven striker is essential right now, not just to give a chance to get that top 4, but because if we do not, we will destroy rasmus's career before it gets going.
He has potential, but the worst thing for him is starting every week when he is out of his depth. He deserves better, and so do we.
Having a quality, proven striker is essential right now, not just to give a chance to get that top 4, but because if we do not, we will destroy rasmus's career before it gets going.
He has potential, but the worst thing for him is starting every week when he is out of his depth. He deserves better, and so do we.
Top 6 GK
Top 4 defensive line
Top half, maybe top 8 midfield
Bottom half, maybe bottom 6 attacking line
If United get a good LB they'll have more of less settled 7-8 main squad players in order to fight for top 4, with the 3 guys up front being the biggest issue.
Top 4 defensive line
Top half, maybe top 8 midfield
Bottom half, maybe bottom 6 attacking line
If United get a good LB they'll have more of less settled 7-8 main squad players in order to fight for top 4, with the 3 guys up front being the biggest issue.
You’re confusing unfulfilled potential with not being good enough.
Juve paid an insane amount for his potential and gave him a hefty contract. That investment only makes sense if he becomes one of the best defenders in the world -- which he hasn’t. He's not the new Beckenbauer or anything like that. Still he was good enough to attract Bayern’s interest, who paid a lot for him. Would they have paid €67 million for a failure? And his second season was not bad, he was just injured a lot. When he was fit he started almost every game.
These are the words of Bayern’s sporting director, I assume?
So they sold him because:
1) they had to sell someone to balance the books
2) They felt Upamecano and Kim better suit the new manager
3) There was an offer for de Ligt unlike the other two
Nothing from that make him a failure or not good enough. It's an open question, if the other two are better than de Ligt. I don't think so. We're not the only club who make wrong decisions, but time will tell.
Its not clear whether its the players or coaches or pressure to paly for United but our general play is way below average. We are hardly entertaining save for a few moments of individual brilliance.
If you watch Brighton /Brentford/Southampton they play some very good football for long periods of their games despite eventually losing their games
If you watch Brighton /Brentford/Southampton they play some very good football for long periods of their games despite eventually losing their games
We have a great squad, but lack of experience in the forward line. Don't press together, dont track back, don't find the passes, shoot when the shot isn't on, make a run at the wrong time, unable to hold up the ball etc
the lack of accountability under Ten Hag has stifled a lot of their growth. I hope Amorim can rectify that because if the attack fires we will be in the top 4 by end of season.
the lack of accountability under Ten Hag has stifled a lot of their growth. I hope Amorim can rectify that because if the attack fires we will be in the top 4 by end of season.
You wrote a whole novel about a simple situation. He wasn't good enough that's it. Do you know what happens when a player is good enough? His club will not sell him after 2-3 years but will offer him a contract extension. This happened to many players, also at Bayern and Juve.
"1) they had to sell someone to balance the books". Of course, and why did they sell him? Because he was actually expendable, they did not need him. They could've sold other players too but they haven't.
"2)They felt Upamecano and Kim better suit the new manager.". Well, it shows how limited de Ligt's capabilities are. He simly cannot play the modern centre back's role.
"3) There was an offer for de Ligt unlike the other two.". Wrong. They stated in Munich that they are willing to sell de Ligt but not the other two and Bayern is in a really good financial situation so they don't have to sell anyone if they don't want to. That's why he ended up in Manchester, and the truth is (if the news are right) that no other club wanted to sign de Ligt. Or at least not for 45 million. Which is scary to say the least.
I've seen a lot of this take since Amorim was appointed: we've got a really good squad just need proper coaching and we'll easily be top 4 (or challenging).
I think we're far from that. Even with a top coach. Midfield is the same concern it has always been, bar maybe that brief early spell under Ole with Matic, Pogba and Herrera. We've got one reliable quality full back. 3 prospects up front and nothing else to write home about.
If I could have written the script for this season it would be Ruud staying in situ until June, with Amorim finishing the season with Sporting. Finishing outside the European places and going into next season with a much thinner squad, clearing out all the high earners and the non-performers.
It'll be more difficult to make the required changes if we're in the Europa next season. If we're in the CL (which would be some feat) I'll have no complaints, but it'll still likely be a slower building process.
I think we're far from that. Even with a top coach. Midfield is the same concern it has always been, bar maybe that brief early spell under Ole with Matic, Pogba and Herrera. We've got one reliable quality full back. 3 prospects up front and nothing else to write home about.
If I could have written the script for this season it would be Ruud staying in situ until June, with Amorim finishing the season with Sporting. Finishing outside the European places and going into next season with a much thinner squad, clearing out all the high earners and the non-performers.
It'll be more difficult to make the required changes if we're in the Europa next season. If we're in the CL (which would be some feat) I'll have no complaints, but it'll still likely be a slower building process.
We have assembled a distinctly average squad with an enormous amount of money. Doesn't mean EtH shouldn't have done way better than he has but feck me we have some crap in the squad and everytime we manage to get rid off one or two we somehow manage to replace them with even worse (see Zirkzee)
So it was the players attitude and lack of ability after all.... And not Ten Hag, or Rangnick, or Ole, or Jose....
Yes. It’s an incredible feat to spend as much money and end up with a squad as average as ours.
Especially the lack of goal threat and creatively from our attackers is baffling. Bar Bruno Fernandes we have no reliable output - and even he does not produce what did a while back.
Especially the lack of goal threat and creatively from our attackers is baffling. Bar Bruno Fernandes we have no reliable output - and even he does not produce what did a while back.
our midfield is very underwhelming, and for years it’s been way too slow. With Mainoo and Ugarte we have some promise, but Casemiro, Eriksen will be off, Casemiro if he continues his better form we can definitely sell him off. and Bruno- still has these incredible numbers over all that maybe he can be useful right under the two.
The midfield signings are so important as all moving forward.
I think if we get into CL it’ll be about our players playing fantastic and we can sell a decent amount of them while attracting younger better options
Ineos have to step up and we have to stop making stop gap and decent signings.
How come other teams can buy good players but we can’t?
While understandable, I think the worst thing we can do is to overestimate the performance today, probably even the 3 next ones as well. Amorim decided to change things up, which is something I respect a lot (if he fails, he at least fails with his plan A), so the players, on top of all the aspects in term of what they can do and what not, now also have to come up with playing a different system. Same as Dortmunds or Brightons systems have made their players look better than they are, I think our players might suffer from the opposite. Don't get me wrong, we have shared opinions on this questions and I am critical since ages, even towards some of fan favorites around here. Lets give them time to understand their roles, give Amorim the chance to figure our, how to adapt and which players can give him what capability. It is safe to say that there is noone in the squad, who shouldn't be questioned to varying degrees. None of them, maybe bar Mainoo and Garnacho is above all questions on whether they should be part of Uniteds future.
Thats just wrong. How on earth do you come up with the idea that we have an either-or-situation here?
Average to poor.
I think, a major part in this plays the idea that players should be merely measured in a scale of good and bad. Other teams look for skillsets and choose players whose skillsets fit a certain role description. Its a damn shame, that United didn't seem to get this memo for last like 15 years but hopefully, we'll turn a corner with more competent people running the show now.
This was a perfect match to prove the OP. Yes, our squad is average. I remember some comments saying that with the arrival of Amorim everything's gonna change and we're gonna fight for the top four. I already wrote a few times that it isn't possible as we simply don't have the quality. Now even the most optimistic fans could see that. According to Transfermarkt, our squad worth 854 million euros. We're 12th in PL, seven of the 11 teams ahead of us worth less than that. I don't say EtH was a good coach, not even close. On top of that he is one of the main reasons why we have average squad. But no manager could make a top4 team out of these players. 6-7th max.
I don't think its average. An average squad can be coached so it can punch over its weight. SAF was able to win the league title with an average side same as Ranieri did with Leicester. What we've got is worse ie its an imbalanced squad
Let's start from the defense. Our LBs/WBs are injury prone which was bad enough in the 80s when the role of the LB was basically a makeshift CB but is even worse now where Wingbacks are becoming key players in football. Then we've got the CBs who simply can't remain fit. That means that we struggle to build any sort of partnership whatsoever which was key during the Pally-Bruce, Stam-Johnsen and Vidic-Rio era.
Midfield is even worse. Ugarte is fine as DM but we've got no adequate cover for him. As no 8 we've got Mainoo whose got great potential but is not the finishing product yet, Eriksen and Casemiro lack legs and while Mount can play as no 10 (if he remains fit) he's no number 8
Our creative spark simply doesn't exist. In terms of the EPL, our two main assist men (Diallo and Bruno on 3 each) has as many assists as Salah alone. Individually they had created less assists then the likes of Ndidi and Damsgaard. Don't get me started on Rashy and Garnacho. Despite all the BS around them they have 1 assist a piece ie at the same level of Dalot, Zirkzee and Mazraoui. No wonder why we can't score goals.
United need to take some very serious and very painful decisions. We've got players on silly salaries that needs to be pushed out and players who think that they're at the cusp of glory that are simply not ready and should be squad players at best. The big question is....do we have the guts and the money to take such decisions?
Let's start from the defense. Our LBs/WBs are injury prone which was bad enough in the 80s when the role of the LB was basically a makeshift CB but is even worse now where Wingbacks are becoming key players in football. Then we've got the CBs who simply can't remain fit. That means that we struggle to build any sort of partnership whatsoever which was key during the Pally-Bruce, Stam-Johnsen and Vidic-Rio era.
Midfield is even worse. Ugarte is fine as DM but we've got no adequate cover for him. As no 8 we've got Mainoo whose got great potential but is not the finishing product yet, Eriksen and Casemiro lack legs and while Mount can play as no 10 (if he remains fit) he's no number 8
Our creative spark simply doesn't exist. In terms of the EPL, our two main assist men (Diallo and Bruno on 3 each) has as many assists as Salah alone. Individually they had created less assists then the likes of Ndidi and Damsgaard. Don't get me started on Rashy and Garnacho. Despite all the BS around them they have 1 assist a piece ie at the same level of Dalot, Zirkzee and Mazraoui. No wonder why we can't score goals.
United need to take some very serious and very painful decisions. We've got players on silly salaries that needs to be pushed out and players who think that they're at the cusp of glory that are simply not ready and should be squad players at best. The big question is....do we have the guts and the money to take such decisions?
Been watching united since the mid 90s. Its the worst in my lifetime. I genuinely only rate 5 players max. The last few windows have set this club back a few season. Paid silly money for some bang average players.
One thing that gives me hope is Amorim seems like the type of manager who can maximise some of the under performing players potential eg Mount, Hojlund . We have been after a major clear out since Ralfs open heart surgery comment. Rashford, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, Dalot should of been sold years ago. It makes me laugh that we are starting Erisken, Casemiro and even though I love the guy Johnny Evans. Would rather give some of the under 23s a chance than some of these players. To quote Roy Keane its a long road back for this team.
One thing that gives me hope is Amorim seems like the type of manager who can maximise some of the under performing players potential eg Mount, Hojlund . We have been after a major clear out since Ralfs open heart surgery comment. Rashford, Shaw, Maguire, Lindelof, Dalot should of been sold years ago. It makes me laugh that we are starting Erisken, Casemiro and even though I love the guy Johnny Evans. Would rather give some of the under 23s a chance than some of these players. To quote Roy Keane its a long road back for this team.
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There is enough ability in the squad to become resolute. We have all seen the downturn in the 18 months or so to know things are not going to change in an instant.
On the positive side Onana is now looking very accomplished. Mazaroui looks a very good signing. Jury still out for me on De Ligt.
Yoro has not kicked a ball for us yet but there is a lot of hype around him. Mainoo is going to be a top player who I fully expect to flourish under Amorim. Ugarte looks to be settling in more with each game and adds a sorely needed energy to the engine room.
Amad has good quality and is another who will benefit a lot when the new system starts to gain traction. Garnacho has something about him but a little raw at the moment but feels like he offers a threat. Hoijlind will improve and has to but he is a better player than he is showing.
Would like to see us go for a young athletic CM to add competition and cover as Casemiro and Eriksen will find the new system tough.
Don’t think things are as gloomy as predicted there is just no instant fix but I do think and 5-6 games time we will see clear improvement and evidence of a style of play that is much more of what we are looking for. Unfortunately results might not come straight away.
On the positive side Onana is now looking very accomplished. Mazaroui looks a very good signing. Jury still out for me on De Ligt.
Yoro has not kicked a ball for us yet but there is a lot of hype around him. Mainoo is going to be a top player who I fully expect to flourish under Amorim. Ugarte looks to be settling in more with each game and adds a sorely needed energy to the engine room.
Amad has good quality and is another who will benefit a lot when the new system starts to gain traction. Garnacho has something about him but a little raw at the moment but feels like he offers a threat. Hoijlind will improve and has to but he is a better player than he is showing.
Would like to see us go for a young athletic CM to add competition and cover as Casemiro and Eriksen will find the new system tough.
Don’t think things are as gloomy as predicted there is just no instant fix but I do think and 5-6 games time we will see clear improvement and evidence of a style of play that is much more of what we are looking for. Unfortunately results might not come straight away.
Amad and Garnacho has great abilities.
Rashford does have the ability to score goals from time to time. Hojlund is a fast runner and a great poacher.
Bruno is one of the best no10 and Eriksen is the best back up.
Mainoo is incredibly gifted at retaining the ball and Ugarte is a master tackler.
The defence is also better than before with so many new additions!
Things are looking bright
!
Rashford does have the ability to score goals from time to time. Hojlund is a fast runner and a great poacher.
Bruno is one of the best no10 and Eriksen is the best back up.
Mainoo is incredibly gifted at retaining the ball and Ugarte is a master tackler.
The defence is also better than before with so many new additions!
Things are looking bright
!
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Average and ill suited to the new system.
Players like Garnacho, Rashford despite what many think, are just that. Average. The reason they are average is due to a combination of one dimensional technical ability and lack of adaptability and unwillingness to work hard, especially off the ball.
Dalot belongs in the average category too - his mental lapses let him down too often.
Antony is below average.
I'd like to see a Mainoo / Ugarte midfield 2 and think Mazraoui and Shaw could play the wing back roles, but we need to see the former two coming towards the defenders looking for the ball with the latter two making themselves available to receive and then give an go. Our overall game is way too slow and static with no urgency. Even Mainoo lacks it sometimes, but this can be coached into him.
Also bang average to date is Hojlund - I just do not see it with him even if he's young. He can barely win a ball pumped up to him - he struggles to win any headers at all, and doesn't really seem to be a hold up type, despite his size. Technically he seems limited too. He's a bull, and a timid one at that.
I think we look set in defence with De Ligt, Yorro and Martinez, but we need an extra CM and new forwards for me - Amad is the only one who works hard and has that creative spark and can carry the ball. He should be in the starting 11 every week, but up front rather than as a wing back, eventually.
In short though, our squad is nowhere near top 4, and is definitely average at this point.
Players like Garnacho, Rashford despite what many think, are just that. Average. The reason they are average is due to a combination of one dimensional technical ability and lack of adaptability and unwillingness to work hard, especially off the ball.
Dalot belongs in the average category too - his mental lapses let him down too often.
Antony is below average.
I'd like to see a Mainoo / Ugarte midfield 2 and think Mazraoui and Shaw could play the wing back roles, but we need to see the former two coming towards the defenders looking for the ball with the latter two making themselves available to receive and then give an go. Our overall game is way too slow and static with no urgency. Even Mainoo lacks it sometimes, but this can be coached into him.
Also bang average to date is Hojlund - I just do not see it with him even if he's young. He can barely win a ball pumped up to him - he struggles to win any headers at all, and doesn't really seem to be a hold up type, despite his size. Technically he seems limited too. He's a bull, and a timid one at that.
I think we look set in defence with De Ligt, Yorro and Martinez, but we need an extra CM and new forwards for me - Amad is the only one who works hard and has that creative spark and can carry the ball. He should be in the starting 11 every week, but up front rather than as a wing back, eventually.
In short though, our squad is nowhere near top 4, and is definitely average at this point.
I don’t believe your squad are average I just think most are lazy and comfortable on very big money