Hardly head and shoulders. LVG has done this far more often at previous clubs so actual has a proven track record I this respect.
However I would still prefer Poch as our coach
Is LVG the best coach at developing youth players in recent times?
- Thread starter Rozay
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However I would still prefer Poch as our coach
Yea and I acknowledged that. However, I am comparing his time at United which is why I referenced 'for United' multiple times in my post.
I'm with many on here. I don't think he's necessarily worthy of getting all the credit for developing the youth players. however, I do think he should be given credit for knowing when a player is ready to step up to the first team and not to be afraid to trust them to do their job, something i don't think Mourinho is good at. We've seen this over and over again with Ajax (Seedorf, Kluivert, Davids etc), Barca (Iniesta / Xavi), Bayern (Muller and co), and he's done it with our team. Partly being due to the injuries, but also when he feels they're ready.
Lets face it, Louie isn't going to just throw an 18 / 19 year old into the team unless they've trained with the squad, impressed Louie and done what he's asked them to do well. So in that regards, he has helped develop some parts of their game, but then that's also the job of the manager.
So yes, give the man some credit.
In a way, i'd actually like him to be head of some youth development for the u14-u19 players as he's obviously got some talent there, but don't see that happening.
Lets face it, Louie isn't going to just throw an 18 / 19 year old into the team unless they've trained with the squad, impressed Louie and done what he's asked them to do well. So in that regards, he has helped develop some parts of their game, but then that's also the job of the manager.
So yes, give the man some credit.
In a way, i'd actually like him to be head of some youth development for the u14-u19 players as he's obviously got some talent there, but don't see that happening.
I don't think this is fair, and sounds like general anti-philosophy resentment is creeping in. As I said in my OP, Van Gaal has shown this throughout his career, right back to Ajax. He's never been known as a boring manager in his career. Young players have thrived under him in many attacking set-ups.
Does he though? I'm a big fan of Pochettino and like that he's not afraid to play young players but most of the players he's played at Spurs are experienced either through loans or playing for other clubs so its not as if he's brought through a load of academy players. The only players who have come through their youth system and played regularly this season are Mason who is 24, Carroll who is 23 and Kane. Kane is the only 1 who is a regular starter. The likes of Alli, Dier and Davies were all bought in having played quite a bit of senior football with other clubs just as United have done with Jones, Shaw, Depay and Martial. Even before all of the injuries United had more young players involved in the first team than most of the other teams in the league
Once again...after one decent victory LVG is the don! 
Half of these youngsters wouldn't even have had a sniff if we didn't have so many injuries at this time! Ridiculous question!
Half of these youngsters wouldn't even have had a sniff if we didn't have so many injuries at this time! Ridiculous question!Not everything has to be all or nothing. It is actually possible to give someone credit for things they do well while also being critical of things they do wrongOnce again...after one decent victory LVG is the don!
How can we not give credit to LvG with the youngsters. He clearly trimmed the squad to involve the youngsters at some point, that was his plan from the word go as he has always said, whether he foresaw the injury crisis ahead. The man takes pride in working with young players and his attendance to most U21 games and his trusted assistants in his absence is a testament to his work with them.
Not giving him the credit here is just blind hatred for his flaws with the first team.
Not giving him the credit here is just blind hatred for his flaws with the first team.
You're missing the point, and you are practically hitting it on the head.
LvG doesn't PLAN to play youth when his first teamers are available. He builds his squad so that WHEN the first team is NOT available, his reserves by necessity are youth players.
That isn't a fluke. It isn't bad planning. He has done it for 3 decades. That is what he does. Instead of having fringe senior players fill in for injuries, he builds his squad so that he dips into the youth when it is needed. It's actually from my perspective brilliant, risky, but also genius. Senior fringe players are peaked, and past it. Playing them is safe. If you play youth instead, you don't know if that kid is a game raising cnut who can't get it up to train at his top level. You don't know if something will click with a player who is an unknown. They are still growing, developing and finding themselves as athletes. You're not going to give a 32 year old journeyman game time and discover the next Messi. If you play your youth when injury crisis hits however, you're at least giving yourself a chance to discover a star.
Yeah I get all that and completely agree but why post this now? Because we beat FC Midtjylland 5-1 at Old Trafford with Rashford getting a brace. Those kids would not have been playing if it wasn't for the injuries. Van Gaal said it himself that Rashford was the best available option at the time.
If he had given Rashford and others a chance when Rooney, Depay, Schneiderlin, Darmian etc. were playing shite then yes he would have deserved all the credit in the world. CBJ only got his break due to injuries.
So, no I don't think van Gaal deserves any credit!
Van Gaal will never win with some (and I'm a fairly big critic,) but his record in promoting youth over the years speaks for itself.
He has also alienated or ignored a couple of the talented young players.
Bringing in youth through the academy and buying youth is a concept that is only indistinguishable by name. The parallel that exist between these two notion is that if a manager is good at developing young players, he is capable of establishing a progressive foundation for the future. As such, you can say United had more young players involved in the first team, but you can't argue that some of those young players are being developed according to expectation. Pochettino on the other hand seems to get the best out of these young players who had little hype and make them into solid or top class players.
Sums it up perfectly. I would say LVG is great for giving young players a chance not for developing them. None of the players he blooded last season are anywhere near the team now. Even Memphis he has handled really badly.
Fergie identified the young players who had the talent to make it and integrated them into the side. Pereira is clearly the most talented young player at United and doesn't get a look in. You get the impression with LVG that he uses the young players as dispensible squad players who will be replaced with the next batch in a season or 2.
It's like trying to develop an elite swimmer from a group of kids. You can either throw them all in the deep end or identify the most talented ones and teach them how to swim.
I understand the sentiment but strictly speaking LVG hasnt developed these players, thats been done by countless unnamed and unheard of junior and youth coaches through the years. They have done all the unheralded hard work in producing players who may be capable of making the step up. LVG does deserve credit for giving them an opportunity but is not LVG who is "developing" the players.
Definitely deserves praise for trimming the squad to give youth a chance, when that decision to trim has also hampered the team. It's like praising him for making one good decision that leads to numerous negative side effects.
Thank you.
So throwing Marcus Rashford into a must win game in Europe, 10 minutes before kick off is "development"?
I guess LvG laid the foundations to promote him, previously.
I guess LvG laid the foundations to promote him, previously.
You missed the "in recent times" part of the thread title. The OP is obviously talking about LVG's long history of giving young players chances. And while LVG has not developed many young players at United, giving them a shot is definitely an important step in their eventual development on the first team front.
Regarding Puyol, it's the director of the academy who convinced the staff to give him a chance, the plan was to get rid of him.
Shifts off some 17 players.
Hasn't got enough players to fill the bench at a must-win home European game.
Gets credit for bleeding youth!
Hahahhaha.... Is that you Luis!?
Hasn't got enough players to fill the bench at a must-win home European game.
Gets credit for bleeding youth!
Hahahhaha.... Is that you Luis!?
I also think it's extremely unfair to list youth players Van Gaal has NOT played extensively in order to say 'what about them'?. The fact is, he has played enough kids to demonstrate that he is willing to play them when he sees fit, but ultimately - HE is the coach, not you, he is not obligated to play Wilson, Keane or Pereira specifically because you feel they are the ones who should be getting the games. That's his decision to make.
Also, with regards to Keane, he, for me, is clearly not a first-team United player anyway. He may have had a chance to be one a few years ago, but he's not the same player since his injury, and has probably scored about 4 goals on loan over the last couple of years since then. Wilson was supposed to be the one, and people seem to have forgotten Van Gaal giving him plenty of opportunities last season, way more than we usually give youth strikers, and the fact is - Wilson has rarely shown himself worthy to play.
As for the whole 'he was forced' - he moved Wilson above Falcao last season, he started him against Liverpool in the League when he did NOT have to. He was always the first sub off the bench when we needed a striker. Now there's all the 'he loaned Wilson' comments. Why shouldn't he? He was of little use to the first-team. It's just like the press who all turned into James Wilson specialists in September, and all popped up to have a go after a debut goal for Brighton, but have gone quiet since then.
Likewise Tom Thorpe. All the caf experts demanded he be played, but the fact is, another young player in McNair was chosen instead. That's not a discrimination against young players, it's a discrimination against Thorpe - who he obviously didn't fancy. He's since left, and not to go to Hull City or Boro or a top Championship side either. The whole game must be so against Top Thorpe.
I personally would like to see Pereira play a bit more, but the fact is, I'm not the coach, and I'm at least comfortable in knowing that he isn't being left out because the coach hates playing young players.
Also, with regards to Keane, he, for me, is clearly not a first-team United player anyway. He may have had a chance to be one a few years ago, but he's not the same player since his injury, and has probably scored about 4 goals on loan over the last couple of years since then. Wilson was supposed to be the one, and people seem to have forgotten Van Gaal giving him plenty of opportunities last season, way more than we usually give youth strikers, and the fact is - Wilson has rarely shown himself worthy to play.
As for the whole 'he was forced' - he moved Wilson above Falcao last season, he started him against Liverpool in the League when he did NOT have to. He was always the first sub off the bench when we needed a striker. Now there's all the 'he loaned Wilson' comments. Why shouldn't he? He was of little use to the first-team. It's just like the press who all turned into James Wilson specialists in September, and all popped up to have a go after a debut goal for Brighton, but have gone quiet since then.
Likewise Tom Thorpe. All the caf experts demanded he be played, but the fact is, another young player in McNair was chosen instead. That's not a discrimination against young players, it's a discrimination against Thorpe - who he obviously didn't fancy. He's since left, and not to go to Hull City or Boro or a top Championship side either. The whole game must be so against Top Thorpe.
I personally would like to see Pereira play a bit more, but the fact is, I'm not the coach, and I'm at least comfortable in knowing that he isn't being left out because the coach hates playing young players.
Yes but he did have enough players though. They were just young players. We didn't have 3 on the fecking bench on Thursday, we just didn't have Evans on the bench on Thursday, who had his chance and showed himself to be utterly useless last season, and younger players will get that chance instead.
What I am giving him credit for is that his philosophy works. What will soon be evident is that, you can bring any youth from Under 18, Under 21 and they will fall in. They will look like they have been playing with the senior team for a while. This is what LVG is about to me and this is why I am not there with most of you holding the pitch forks and torches. Whoever replaces him must be entrusted to bring this structure to fruition.
Can I have my name back please..
The problem is with the developing, if the question was, is he the best at giving youth players a chance or more accurately at integrating them into the first team? The answer would be yes, he is among the best.
At Barcelona, Bayern, Ajax or United, LVG benefitted from the youth coaches, it doesn't mean that he is poor since we also know that when the players are training full time with him they continue to improve and sometimes improve even faster but in our case, today, LVG didn't develop them, he is developing Shaw, Pereira, Januzaj, McNair and Martial these are the players that he has with him all the time.
I dont know enough about the full youth coaches really but I would have thought them and warren joyce were the only people that could be credited with our youth development. LvG is only using the players available. He has to field 11 players at the end of the day.
It's really not that complicated:
- LvG trimmed the squad to give youth a chance
- He bought young players who aren't the finished product and need to be developped
- He overdid the trimming a bit, leaving him with a squad thin on experience and class in general and especially when hit with injuries
- He got hit by a wave of injuries
- The above led to the situation that he had to play a must win game with very young and inexperienced players
- He succeeded and had them playing like mature players
He does deserves credit for giving youth the chance and buying young players, he deserves criticism for overdoing it, he doesn't deserve much criticism for the wave of injuries, because they are almost all contact injuries. He deserves credit for having young and inexperienced players play like that, especially so many together, not many managers know how to do that and therefore do more to avoid a situation like that.
Development from talent to good player happens in and around the first team. That's the most important development of a player, but cooperation between the manager and the academy makes the transition smoother and makes it easier to give them match time, but at the academy players can only be developed to the level of beeing ready for a debut. They can only prepare them for the next stage of development.
- LvG trimmed the squad to give youth a chance
- He bought young players who aren't the finished product and need to be developped
- He overdid the trimming a bit, leaving him with a squad thin on experience and class in general and especially when hit with injuries
- He got hit by a wave of injuries
- The above led to the situation that he had to play a must win game with very young and inexperienced players
- He succeeded and had them playing like mature players
He does deserves credit for giving youth the chance and buying young players, he deserves criticism for overdoing it, he doesn't deserve much criticism for the wave of injuries, because they are almost all contact injuries. He deserves credit for having young and inexperienced players play like that, especially so many together, not many managers know how to do that and therefore do more to avoid a situation like that.
Development from talent to good player happens in and around the first team. That's the most important development of a player, but cooperation between the manager and the academy makes the transition smoother and makes it easier to give them match time, but at the academy players can only be developed to the level of beeing ready for a debut. They can only prepare them for the next stage of development.
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No
Here is our matchday squad against Ipswich town earlier this season.
United: De Gea; Valencia, Smalling (Jones 69), Blind, Young; Schweinsteiger, Herrera; Mata (Martial 69), Fellaini, Pereira; Rooney (Memphis 81).
Subs not used: Romero, Darmian, Carrick, Schneiderlin.
I am highlighting this game on its own because, this is the kind of game SAF and generally other managers like Wenger would put out a relatively youth squad.
United: De Gea; Valencia, Smalling (Jones 69), Blind, Young; Schweinsteiger, Herrera; Mata (Martial 69), Fellaini, Pereira; Rooney (Memphis 81).
Subs not used: Romero, Darmian, Carrick, Schneiderlin.
I am highlighting this game on its own because, this is the kind of game SAF and generally other managers like Wenger would put out a relatively youth squad.
I think that is fair, but I also think by the same token, it isn't fair to give other first-team coaches for developing young players, but then take it away from Van Gaal and give it solely to the youth coaches. I think it's more about semantics here anyway. Whether the word is 'development' or not, I just think Van Gaal is the best first-team coach at working with youth in recent times.
Also, to say 'it was Joyce' for instance, is also a bit simplistic to me. CBJ, for instance, didn't work with Joyce for that long. He has worked with several coaches at United since he was a kid, different ones as he moved up every year. Van Gaal is just the latest. And for me, he is showing things in the first-team I didn't really see before anyway, but ultimately, Joyce had him for what, a year? Before him, who, McGuiness? These coaches didn't work with him for 5 years either, so they should not be credited with his development per se. And didn't he spend most of his time at centre-half anyway?
You do have a point with some of the players you mentioned though, like Shaw, Adnan etc - and he hasn't necessarily turned them into world beaters. So I can certainly see that side of the argument. I just don't agree with the other extreme that seems to almost imply these players are finished articles already at 17 and 18, all Van Gaal should be credited with is 'picking them'. In any case, that is no small contribution. He's not expected to teach 18 year olds how to play football after all, but giving the chance, the structure, and most importantly - the confidence to do it for a club like Manchester United is massive I think.
Are you insane OP? Are you actually expecting people on the caf to actually give LVG any credit? You must have lost your mind.
It was early in the season, and we were clearly building our team. The likes of Jones were just coming back from injury too and needed the bench spot. I can't recall any other extenuating circumstances with individuals if there were any. But tbh, the same time last year, he went the other way at MK Dons and we saw what happened. He's entitled to field a strong squad I think. And Pereira started, and was probably better to integrate him into that kind of team.
And I think Fergie shouldn't even be compared, he rarely trusted youth at all in his latter years. Even if he did play them in the odd cup game, he wouldn't involve them in bigger games. Van Gaal has started kids when it matters.
Nailed it.
Which basically shows that he didn't trust the youngsters earlier in the season and they are currently being played out of compulsion. Just look at the full back situation and how far down the pecking order are the current ones and add to the fact that he tried to sign debuchy in January.
Like when?, not out of compulsion.
Doesn't get much bigger than starting James Wilson against Liverpool in the League instead of Falcao. I'm pretty sure McNair has started games he did not absolutely have to last season too, probably Blackett too.
The same odd game you said about SAF giving chances to youth players like Gibson against Bayern, Welbeck against Real.
If Mourinho had 20 injuries to his Chelsea team and had to play the youth would he have got the same praise?
LVG didn't even trust Rashford enough for the bench against Shrewsbury on Monday.
LVG didn't even trust Rashford enough for the bench against Shrewsbury on Monday.
A) LVG trusted youth without injuries (mcnair,blackett among the ones bought for millions - for some reason you regard then as older players
B) he trusted Keane before R Ashford, before Keane it was Martial
C) Mourinho would have 20 injuries & still play any adult he has left. For every Costa- he has remy, falcao, pato & I remember him even playing with no striker upfront and hazard as a striker
D) lotus cheek has to get games by injuries to - fabregas,matic,Mikel, traore whilst lotus cheek is not even an unknown quantity anymore.
Mourinho isn't bad but let's not put him in the same category as LVG. That's just idiotic.