Is it time to burst “Rashy’s” bubble?

[KM]

His form has been off in the last few games.

Martial and Lukaku have both been better in recent games.

Well as an attacking player you'd have to get numbers too right? Martial is debatable but I'm sorry Lukaku clearly hasn't been.

Have they even had a assist or goal in those five matches?

I'm not disagreeing that his form hasn't been off but the alternatives hasn't been great too.

 

[Raees]

"feck off" "you're making up shit" "get a grip" and then accuses other people of being hysterical. Christ.

So now you're the rational KM who didn't come into this thread riding on his high horse ridiculing half the people that posted in it? Nicely played.

 

[KM]

So now you're the rational KM who didn't come into this thread riding on his high horse ridiculing half the people that posted in it? Nicely played.

Thanks. At least I didn't start a thread which advocated a young attacking player should focus on his work rate more rather than attacking attributes.

 

[Raees]

That's from your own OP.

Great advice to a young attacker. Settle down pal with those shots and trickery. Just focus on your work rate and you'll be a good player.
That's the Mourinho approach.

Different players have different limitations. You can't go around coaching everyone as if they're Cristiano Ronadldo or Lionel Messi.. on the flip side you can't go around telling all wingers to be tracking back like Makelele.

There's a balance to be had.

With someone like Martial.. you'd want him to add more trickery to his game as he can get a tad one-dimensional in terms of how he runs at players. You wouldn't want him to be a workhorse as it just wouldn't make sense with the game he has and the personality he has.

With Rashford, he has such a wide range of skills.. you'd want to simplify his game a touch, because he's trying too much and sometimes negates the basics. Even Cristiano had to simplify his game in some respects to get the best out of himself.

For me Rashford is at his best when he's pressing from the front, he's not holding on to the ball for too long, he's relying more on his movement off the ball than ball-carrying with it. He's not the type of player you want to indulge too much with the ball, he's better when he's playing a more simpler game but can choose the right moment to explode and take opponent by surprise rather than use him like a Martial where you want him on the ball constantly driving at the opposition.

Every player is different - has feck all to do with Mourinho.

 

[sincher]

Well as an attacking player you'd have to get numbers too right? Martial is debatable but I'm sorry Lukaku clearly hasn't been.

Have they even had a assist or goal in those five matches?

I'm not disagreeing that his form hasn't been off but the alternatives hasn't been great too.

Martial has scored, Lukaku has played a bit better than Rashford IMO when he has been on the pitch in the last few games regardless of stats.

But if you want to look at stats, note that Martial actually has our best scoring rate of any of our players in the league despite not playing up front. Not sure he should be out of the team. Lukaku/Rashford more debatable. Not sure both Dalot and Young should have played either.

 

[KM]

Martial has scored, Lukaku has played a bit better than Rashford IMO when he has been on the pitch in the last few games regardless of stats.

But if you want to look at stats, note that Martial actually has our best scoring rate of any player in the league despite not playing up front. Not sure he should be out of the team. Lukaku/Rashford more debatable. Not sure both Dalot and Young should have played either.

Ole's tactics has been troublesome for me. Should go for a simple 4-3-3 rather than the funky stuff he's trying.

 

[sincher]

Ole's tactics has been troublesome for me. Should go for a simple 4-3-3 rather than the funky stuff he's trying.

Yeah I think he lost faith in the 433 too early.

 

[Ban]

Yeah I think he lost faith in the 433 too early.

I hope 3-5-2 won't be the norm.

 

[Casanova85]

Man Utd. used to have merciless strikers.

 

[Raees]

If you don't think that in this current age that Rashford isn't worth 150k then I think we should just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Just for reference.. Barcelona squad salaries:

Messi (500K)
Suarez (290K)
Coutinho (200K)
Pique (165K)
Rakitic (150K)

Madrid
Sergio Ramos (200k)
Kroos (200k)
Modric (180K)
Marcelo (150K)
Isco (120K)

City

KDB (350K)
Aguero (250K)
Sterling (180K)
Sane (90k)
Laporte (65K)

Chelsea

Hazard (225K)
Kante (150K)

Liverpool
Salah (200k)
Firmino (180K)
Mane (100K)

Spurs
Kane (200k)
Son-Min (140K)
Eriksen (75k)

If you can't see how even 150K is overpriced for Rashford based on European and domestic market.. even in the modern era? then yes we disagree. He's nowhere near proven as the names above. He should be around 80K a week or 100k max.

There is the old school market, there is the modern day market and then there is Manchester United football club with its ridiculous approach to player valuation.

 

[El Jefe]

Different players have different limitations. You can't go around coaching everyone as if they're Cristiano Ronadldo or Lionel Messi.. on the flip side you can't go around telling all wingers to be tracking back like Makelele.

There's a balance to be had.

With someone like Martial.. you'd want him to add more trickery to his game as he can get a tad one-dimensional in terms of how he runs at players. You wouldn't want him to be a workhorse as it just wouldn't make sense with the game he has and the personality he has.

With Rashford, he has such a wide range of skills.. you'd want to simplify his game a touch, because he's trying too much and sometimes negates the basics. Even Cristiano had to simplify his game in some respects to get the best out of himself.

For me Rashford is at his best when he's pressing from the front, he's not holding on to the ball for too long, he's relying more on his movement off the ball than ball-carrying with it. He's not the type of player you want to indulge too much with the ball, he's better when he's playing a more simpler game but can choose the right moment to explode and take opponent by surprise rather than use him like a Martial where you want him on the ball constantly driving at the opposition.

Every player is different - has feck all to do with Mourinho.

Exactly!! I really don't see what's hard to understand about this. He's no where as good as he thinks he is. He played within his limits under LVG and that is the player I would have liked him to keep developing to. An Andy Cole type rather than this Ronaldo version.

The same thing happened to Januzaj and that was his downfall. Came into the side as a playmaker and was great at it but all of a sudden thought he was Gareth Bale and got worse as time went on.

Adding more strings to your bow as a player is very beneficial but its also worth knowing your limitations and playing within them. Its what makes players like Mbappe and Ronaldo so great, they know what they can do and do it extremely well. You don't see Ronny trying Messi type through balls or Mbappe taking shots from 30 yards out.

 

[roonster09]

Just for reference.. Barcelona squad salaries:

Messi (500K)
Suarez (290K)
Coutinho (200K)
Pique (165K)
Rakitic (150K)

City

KDB (350K)
Aguero (250K)
Sterling (180K)
Sane (90k)
Laporte (65K)

Chelsea

Hazard (225K)
Kante (150K)

Liverpool
Salah (200k)
Firmino (180K)
Mane (100K)

Spurs
Kane (200k)
Son-Min (140K)
Eriksen (75k)

If you can't see how even 150K is overpriced for Rashford based on European and domestic market.. even in the modern era? then yes we disagree.

There is the old school market, there is the modern day market and then there is Manchester United football club with its ridiculous approach to player valuation.

Without checking for other teams, at least the Barca wages are wrong.

You have taken net wages for Barca players.

According to report published by L'Equipe, Messi earns 100 million per year, Suarez earns 34 million per year, Coutinho earns 27 million per year.

150K a week means Rashford will earn 7.8 million per year.

https://www.lequipe.fr/Football/Act...urs-de-ligue-1-dans-le-top-10-europeen/986428
https://www.goal.com/en-in/news/mes...er-ahead-of-ronaldo/itda4m5zzao21lzzd061hbtp8
https://www.barcablaugranes.com/201...-list-luis-suarez-philippe-coutinho-in-top-10

 

[dove]

We all knew it a long time ago but when you make a post even slightly criticising him, you get a crazy amount of backlash. We are not winning the league or CL with Rashford as a striker. He is a bit like Pogba, brilliant at times but usually extremely wasteful and does nothing useful to the team. But again this our stupid management's, fans and the board's fault. He is so hyped it's crazy, he started to believe in this hype himself and now he probably feels like a prime Ronaldo. Board will reward him with some ridiculous contract offer soon I am sure, we love to reward mediocrity. He is still young and can become a good player but it's about time he learns his limitations and stops acting like a superstar.

 

[KM]

Just for reference.. Barcelona squad salaries:

Messi (500K)
Suarez (290K)
Coutinho (200K)
Pique (165K)
Rakitic (150K)

City

KDB (350K)
Aguero (250K)
Sterling (180K)
Sane (90k)
Laporte (65K)

Chelsea

Hazard (225K)
Kante (150K)

Liverpool
Salah (200k)
Firmino (180K)
Mane (100K)

Spurs
Kane (200k)
Son-Min (140K)
Eriksen (75k)

If you can't see how even 150K is overpriced for Rashford based on European and domestic market.. even in the modern era? then yes we disagree.

There is the old school market, there is the modern day market and then there is Manchester United football club with its ridiculous approach to player valuation.

Where are these stats from?

Chelsea
Kante is at 300k(N'Golo Kante is ready to hand Chelsea a significant boost by signing a new Chelsea contract worth around £300,000-a-week.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/11/20/ngolo-kante-verge-signing-bumper-new-chelsea-deal/. Hazard's still on his 2015 deal.

Man City
Sterling is at 300k(Raheem Sterling has signed a three-year contract extension at Manchester City, committing him to the club until 2023 in a deal worth up to £300,000 a week.https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46157225).
Sane is still on the contract he signed for. in 2016 You can bet his new contract will be around 200k too.

Liverpool
Mane signed a new contract in 2018 and he's on 200k too.

Barcelona
The Barcelona are even more laughable. According to L'Equipe, Suarez and Coutinho are at more than what Sanchez is whereas Messi is comfortably the world's most richest.


Accuse other of making up shit and then bring in these "stats" just to prove your point. Well played @Raees.

 

[roonster09]

Where are these stats from?

Chelsea
Kante is at 300k(N'Golo Kante is ready to hand Chelsea a significant boost by signing a new Chelsea contract worth around £300,000-a-week.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/11/20/ngolo-kante-verge-signing-bumper-new-chelsea-deal/. Hazard's still on his 2015 deal.

Man City
Sterling is at 300k(Raheem Sterling has signed a three-year contract extension at Manchester City, committing him to the club until 2023 in a deal worth up to £300,000 a week.https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46157225).
Sane is still on the contract he signed for. in 2016 You can bet his new contract will be around 200k too.

Liverpool
Mane signed a new contract in 2018 and he's on 200k too.

Barcelona
The Barcelona are even more laughable. According to L'Equipe, Suarez and Coutinho are at more than what Sanchez is whereas Messi is comfortably the world's most richest.


Accuse other of making up shit and then bring in these "stats" just to prove your point. Well played @Raees.

Even Salah wages are wrong. He was on 130K when he was at Roma, somehow Liverpool journalists reported he earns 80K at Liverpool and signed extension already. Funny how all the Liverpool player wages are reported so less, yet they have such a huge wage bill.

He was earning 3.5 million net back in 2016-17 at Roma.

 

[Ban]

We all knew it a long time ago but when you make a post even slightly criticising him, you get a crazy amount of backlash. We are not winning the league or CL with Rashford as a striker. He is a bit like Pogba, brilliant at times but usually extremely wasteful and does nothing useful to the team. But again this our stupid management's, fans and the board's fault. He is so hyped it's crazy, he started to believe in this hype himself and now he probably feels like a prime Ronaldo. Board will reward him with some ridiculous contract offer soon I am sure, we love to reward mediocrity. He is still young and can become a good player but it's about time he learns his limitations and stops acting like a superstar.

How exactly is he hyped?
And how exactly does he act like a superstar? By shooting outside the box?

 

[KM]

How exactly is he hyped?

The majority of the Caf thought that he was a inferior footballer to Kelechi and Jesus and yet people think he's overhyped.

 

[simplyared]

I don't want him to lose the natural air of confidence the lad has but are we harming his long term prospects by making him think he's already an elite forward? I feel like his general game is so erratic and unpolished.

Said it before, he is a player capable of producing great moments but his overall 90 minute game leaves a lot to be desired on a regular basis. I genuinely do not think this lad can be a first team regular if we are looking to win big trophies unless he takes a big slice of humble pie and works really hard on all aspects of his game and simplifies it... i.e. becomes a work horse who understands his own limitations.

I think as a long term squad player he'd be a great asset to have around but I fear we have blown up his ego to such an extent - he would walk if he was told he's not good enough to make it here as a first team regular.

Go along wholeheartedly with this!
Noticed last night against Barca how he has now developed an overconfidence in himself which I hadn't noticed before. So yes great point and hope the right people have seen it and can get him sorted on the training ground.

 

[Raees]

Where are these stats from?

Chelsea
Kante is at 300k(N'Golo Kante is ready to hand Chelsea a significant boost by signing a new Chelsea contract worth around £300,000-a-week.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/11/20/ngolo-kante-verge-signing-bumper-new-chelsea-deal/. Hazard's still on his 2015 deal.

Man City
Sterling is at 300k(Raheem Sterling has signed a three-year contract extension at Manchester City, committing him to the club until 2023 in a deal worth up to £300,000 a week.https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/46157225).
Sane is still on the contract he signed for. in 2016 You can bet his new contract will be around 200k too.

Liverpool
Mane signed a new contract in 2018 and he's on 200k too.

Barcelona
The Barcelona are even more laughable. According to L'Equipe, Suarez and Coutinho are at more than what Sanchez is whereas Messi is comfortably the world's most richest.


Accuse other of making up shit and then bring in these "stats" just to prove your point. Well played @Raees.

Figures were taken from total sportek in relation to beginning of 18/19 season - apologies if they're out-dated or inaccurate.

re: Sterling (taken from Independent)

The winger’s new contract could be worth a potential £300,000-a-week, though only if Sterling meets a series of bonus clauses – which include winning the Ballon d’Or

https://www.givemesport.com/1451338...footballers-in-2019-based-on-monthly-earnings

Lets focus on Mane on 200K... Is Rashford anywhere close to him in terms of consistency and performance level?

Bottom line is no matter what statistics we will refer to - end of the day, 150K will be overpriced for Rashford and many of United's players will look overpriced to their domestic and European counterparts.

 

[Ban]

The majority of the Caf thought that he was a inferior footballer to Kelechi and Jesus and yet people think he's overhyped.

I don't know, we should see what total sportek thinks of him.

 

[deadrevelz]

Garbage as usual...

We have no alternatives but people are suggesting we should tell him he's not good enough to lead the line. Probably why you're not managers.

Then with the constant character assassinations about ego despite there being no evidence whatsoever. Just like Raheem Sterling. I've noticed a lot more of this is directed at Rashford, Lingard, Pogba, Martial and Lukaku compared to Matic, Herrera, Lindelof, Dalot, De Gea, Shaw etc.

Strange.

 

[Ban]

Garbage as usual...

We have no alternatives but people are suggesting we should tell him he's not good enough to lead the line. Probably why you're not managers.

Then with the constant character assassinations about ego despite there being no evidence whatsoever. Just like Raheem Sterling. I've noticed a lot more of this is directed at Rashford, Lingard, Pogba, Martial and Lukaku compared to Matic, Herrera, Lindelof, Dalot, De Gea, Shaw etc.

Strange.

Rubbish post if I ever saw one. You're claiming there's racism in analysing players here?

 

[deadrevelz]

How exactly is he hyped?
And how exactly does he act like a superstar? By shooting outside the box?

He isn't.
And he doesn't.
He works hard, tries his best and follows the manager's instructions. If we had Robin van Persie in the team, Rashford wouldn't be playing anywhere near as much and wouldn't shoot as much during the game. It's that simple.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Just for reference.. Barcelona squad salaries:

Messi (500K)
Suarez (290K)
Coutinho (200K)
Pique (165K)
Rakitic (150K)

Madrid
Sergio Ramos (200k)
Kroos (200k)
Modric (180K)
Marcelo (150K)
Isco (120K)

City

KDB (350K)
Aguero (250K)
Sterling (180K)
Sane (90k)
Laporte (65K)

Chelsea

Hazard (225K)
Kante (150K)

Liverpool
Salah (200k)
Firmino (180K)
Mane (100K)

Spurs
Kane (200k)
Son-Min (140K)
Eriksen (75k)

If you can't see how even 150K is overpriced for Rashford based on European and domestic market.. even in the modern era? then yes we disagree. He's nowhere near proven as the names above. He should be around 80K a week or 100k max.

There is the old school market, there is the modern day market and then there is Manchester United football club with its ridiculous approach to player valuation.

Ah good, I always like it when these arguments descend into playing top trumps with made up numbers in the newspapers. Always worthwhile.

 

[KM]

Garbage as usual...

We have no alternatives but people are suggesting we should tell him he's not good enough to lead the line. Probably why you're not managers.

Then with the constant character assassinations about ego despite there being no evidence whatsoever. Just like Raheem Sterling. I've noticed a lot more of this is directed at Rashford, Lingard, Pogba, Martial and Lukaku compared to Matic, Herrera, Lindelof, Dalot, De Gea, Shaw etc.

Strange.

Disagree. There's no racial element involved here in this thread.

 

[GazTheLegend]

Maybe he needs to focus a bit more on improving his game but guys - he’s only 21 years old. That’s completely nuts to
me. He IS gonna get better but yeah maybe he does need a reality check, it’s all about the hard work.

 

[Raees]

Ah good, I always like it when these arguments descend into playing top trumps with made up numbers in the newspapers. Always worthwhile.

What is a reliable source then for salaries?

 

[deadrevelz]

Rubbish post if I ever saw one. You're claiming there's racism in analysing players here?

Not accusing anyone of racism, just pointing out clear patterns. I think people have a tendency to group players together due to how they look, nationality etc. Rashford is being lumped in with certain players who have shown examples of this despite no evidence of his behaviour.

 

[Ban]

Not accusing anyone of racism, just pointing out clear patterns. I think people have a tendency to group players together due to how they look, nationality etc. Rashford is being lumped in with certain players who have shown examples of this despite no evidence of his behaviour.

So pointing out to subtle racism, yeah.

 

[OL29]

He's not been great recently, but he's had no support. The whole midfield and attack seems to be out of form at the moment so he's feeding off scraps. His decision making does need to improve but that'll come with age I expect.

 

[ForestRGoinUp]

It's ridiculous. Because we have a lack of quality players - our fans target the only good players we have; even if they should be played a bit more rotated in the squad.

How is that Rashford's fault that United don't have a Harry Kane type striker in front of him.

I just don't get it.

We should be using Martial & Rashford as secondary cogs to our first team at their age and experience - not the one and only attacking players we have that get belittled by our fans for not being good enough.

Ridiculous.

I agree with all of this, but in reality they are and will continue to be our first choice attackers, and by all indications we want to add a 19 year old to the attack which just reeks a little too much of naivety for me.

With that kind of pressure illogically heaped on them by the club, they will either get the glory or the grief that comes with it.

I know everyone wants to go young, which I get for the future, but I'd happily take Cavani and Bale this summer if only to take the pressure and spotlight off of Rashford/Martial. I think it would help their development, and help us score more goals. But even then I don't see Rashford ever being dropped from the first XI by Ole now.

 

[NinjaFletch]

What is a reliable source then for salaries?

Clubs' financial end of year accounts, but for obvious reasons they are not broken down by player.

I believe this is the most recent year for which we have complete data:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/06/premier-league-finances-club-guide-2016-17

Both us and City have released data for last year, and we've overtaken them.

(note here that this is a mix of 2016/17, and we've been fecked by the £/€ exchange rate in this period)

There are definitely question marks about the value for money we get, and whether the players we are investing in are worth it, but that's an issue of talent ID; the idea we're on a completely different planet to the other sides in terms of renumeration is demonstrably untrue.

 

[EwanI Ted]

You dont try and bring your players down a peg for playing badly. You only try and do that if they think they're so good they don't need to keep improving any more. If Rashford is acting the big man off the pitch, not bothering to train, not listening to his coaches, etc, then fine, Ole should call him out. But if he's doing all that stuff right and his only crime is to keep trying to make things happen on the pitch and failing because he's out of form, then no, let him keep trying.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The latest figures I read RE United and City's wages that we pay on average £10k a week per player more.

 

[kouroux]

I hope 3-5-2 won't be the norm.

Yeah because it doesn' help us at all. I've always hated this setup, so unnatural.

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

I agree with all of this, but in reality they are and will continue to be our first choice attackers, and by all indications we want to add a 19 year old to the attack which just reeks a little too much of naivety for me.

With that kind of pressure illogically heaped on them by the club, they will either get the glory or the grief that comes with it.

I know everyone wants to go young, which I get for the future, but I'd happily take Cavani and Bale this summer if only to take the pressure and spotlight off of Rashford/Martial. I think it would help their development, and help us score more goals. But even then I don't see Rashford ever being dropped from the first XI by Ole now.

I'm with you.

I will never say it loud due to the state of the forum but I would sell Sanchez & Lukaku to try and bring a discounted Bale in to replace them.

As bad as Bale may be to some - he is still a player that can atleast get 15 goals a season on his worst outings by also scoring types of goals we lack - Free kicks, headers and long distance goals for example.

When we get a player like that - we have a player that can learn but also play alongside him.

Rashford Greenwood & Martial learning of Bale is never a bad thing - never mind the fact that nearly every player in that team has the ability to score 10-15 goals a season in that attack on their best days.

I'm glad that some fans are open to Bale here.

 

[Raees]

Clubs' financial end of year accounts, but for obvious reasons they are not broken down by player.

I believe this is the most recent year for which we have complete data:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2018/jun/06/premier-league-finances-club-guide-2016-17

Both us and City have released data for last year, and we've overtaken them.

(note here that this is a mix of 2016/17, and we've been fecked by the £/€ exchange rate in this period)

There are definitely question marks about the value for money we get, and whether the players we are investing in are worth it, but that's an issue of talent ID; the idea we're on a completely different planet to the other sides in terms of renumeration is demonstrably untrue.

Thanks for that.

Disagree with the part in bold, because the talent ID aspect is so important. If you're paying average and medicore players the same amount the rest of the market only pays for the top end players, then you're not running the club well because when you are in the market for a truly elite player they're going to milk you for what you're worth and if they do sign on the dotted line, you're confronted with a bunch of mediocre players who will think they have the right to even more extortionate new contracts.

I don't think anyone can disagree that United are the worst side in the world right now when it comes to getting their bang for the buck.

 

[roonster09]

The latest figures I read RE United and City's wages that we pay on average £10k a week per player more.

Officially. Who knows how many hidden payments are done by City.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Thanks for that.

Disagree with the part in bold, because the talent ID aspect is so important. If you're paying average and medicore players the same amount the rest of the market only pays for the top end players, then you're not running the club well because when you are in the market for a truly elite player they're going to milk you for what you're worth and if they do sign on the dotted line, you're confronted with a bunch of mediocre players who will think they have the right to even more extortionate new contracts.

I don't think anyone can disagree that United are the worst side in the world right now when it comes to getting their bang for the buck.

I'm not sure we disagree at all really. I think we're on the same general page unless I have misunderstood? (Not helped by the site deciding not to show which bit you have bolded)

There are definitely valid complaints about how we rate our players, but those are complaints that can be made without buying in to media wankery about wages because it's mostly just things we already know.

It's demonstrably clear that we think Rashford is an elite talent and our best striker under Ole. We know that from how often he starts, when he starts, and how much faith the manager places in him. You can question whether any other club would think the same, and you can have your own opinions about Rashford's ability and that's perfectly legitimate, but it doesn't really change the fact that currently that seems to be what the club thinks of him.

If he gets a contract that reflects that, that doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know. The issue of which Rashford is (potentially – I don't agree with your assessment of his ability) a microcosm isn't that we are paying players too much, it's that we've paid it to players that aren't good enough.

Which is my point above. Anyone with a pair of eyes and a Sky Sports subscription can tell you that most of those clubs have better players than us. Unless you think we're purposefully buying players we think aren't good enough and then paying them shedloads for some bizarre reason all the wages tell you is the point that you (and I, and others) have already been making: that those clubs have better players than us. Quoting atrocious websites like givemesport or sportek (whoever they are) doesn't strengthen that point, it just presents the same information through a distorting lens of made up bullshit pulled out of some random persons arse.

 

[OL29]

The majority of the Caf thought that he was a inferior footballer to Kelechi and Jesus and yet people think he's overhyped.

Like with most players, particularly young players with potential, he's over-hyped and underrated in equal measure. Let's not forget how many compared him to Mbappè. It's the same with Martial, some think he can do no wrong, some refuse to give him any credit at all. Football's a polarising sport so it's not surprising, the bigger problem is the people who's start to become personal with their criticism. Loads of people in this thread who obviously just don't like the guy for some strange reason, they really drag down the quality of debate.