I'm not for one minute saying you're wrong but if James's current contribution to the team keeps up that will a difficult one to argue. Over 3 games Dan James has looked by far a bigger threat than Rashford during the Southampton game I would go as far to say Dan James was a far better player than Rashford.
Is it time to burst “Rashy’s” bubble?
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I'm not for one minute saying you're wrong but if James's current contribution to the team keeps up that will a difficult one to argue. Over 3 games Dan James has looked by far a bigger threat than Rashford during the Southampton game I would go as far to say Dan James was a far better player than Rashford.
Scored a lovely header last season away to Valencia and he also scored one on his premier league debut against Arsenal. You’re correct though, it’s not really a forte of his although it’s something I believe he’ll improve on given his height and athleticism.
I do think some of the criticism of his weekend performance is ott. He’s not played up top this season so it’s not surprising if his forward play was rusty but we shouldn’t forget that he’s been one of our most productive players in the first few games. He also stated that he doesn’t really see himself as a number 9: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....us-rashford-man-utd-ultimate-forward-no-9/amp
It looks to me like he has ambitions to become a Gareth Bale or Cristiano Ronaldo type of forward who can cause damage all across the front line but like others have stated, he needs to develop the simpler parts of his game like first touch, movement and short passing first, these are the basic tools to build a platform to become top class.
That's basically what a natural instinct for goal is. It's really hard to teach if you're not systematically putting in balls from specific positions. I have very little faith that he improves in that area by a significant amount.
21 year old misses a few chances in a game we draw, let's all take the knives out right? He'll be fine. Long term this season think he'll mainly play off the left anyway with Martial central, and that was looking very promising in the opening few games.
Does look like his form has really suffered in the last 18 months or so,whether he is able to find that 15/16 version of him again remains to be seen.
I feel the situation with Lingard is very different and his Utd career peaked with the winning goal in the FA Cup Final. Yes I know he has scored goals since but the consistency has never been there at all.
I feel the situation with Lingard is very different and his Utd career peaked with the winning goal in the FA Cup Final. Yes I know he has scored goals since but the consistency has never been there at all.
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I strongly disagree.
Players with natural instinct for goal don't rely on runs to sniff out goals. The rely in their innate anticipation. A great example of unteachable anticipation is the goal Aubameyang scored spurs this past weekend. Its all in the anticipation. Not the movement
A player who isn't naturally gifted at anticipating, relies instead on excellent off the ball movement to get goals. Henry was a great example. Even CR7. They perfected movement in and around the box. Constantly making runs into areas good balls tend to be knocked or played into. Including mastering blind side runs. In their earlier days they never stood still, in and around the box. Inevitable it led them to be in regularly great goal scoring positions. Hence once they improved their finishing technique and composure. Their numbers went through the roof consistently. Especially in CR7s case.
Sterling is another beneficiary of this. His runs off the ball in and around the box, are brilliant. But he has never been a nature goal scorer. So he used to miss loads. But as his finishing technique and composure has improved, do have his numbers.
To me Rashford needs to improve his runs. Its the same thing holding a more natural finisher like Martial from getting truly high numbers of goals.
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Rashford is not lazy, I don’t necessarily believe there is a huge problem caused by believing his own hype and he is not suffering from being played out of position
The simple fact is Rashford lacks the basic technique to be a top player. I’ve always said Rashford is a manufactured footballer. He has been in our Academy since he was 9. He’s not a natural talent, he’s a natural athlete who has been coached daily to develop some football skills
Those people who are suddenly expecting an exponential improvement in his technique just because he is getting older are going to be sorely disappointed!
The simple fact is Rashford lacks the basic technique to be a top player. I’ve always said Rashford is a manufactured footballer. He has been in our Academy since he was 9. He’s not a natural talent, he’s a natural athlete who has been coached daily to develop some football skills
Those people who are suddenly expecting an exponential improvement in his technique just because he is getting older are going to be sorely disappointed!
Decision making is his biggest flaw. I also think people are particularly harsh on him because he has been in and around the first team so long. The fact is at his age he wouldn't have broken through at most big teams.
PFA Young Player of the Year is given to players 24 and under yet we are writing off a 21yr olds entire development.
PFA Young Player of the Year is given to players 24 and under yet we are writing off a 21yr olds entire development.
I'm sure that's wrong, I read few threads and articles on Rashford even before he made his first team debut. It was all about his technique and his how complete player he is. At that time he wasnt even 9.
@jb8521 @khoazany @limerickcitykid follows them regularly, so should shed more light on this.
Two words Theo Walcott. His decision is the same as when he was 17-18. Rashford is not as basic, but decision making and technique dont suddenly get better
Rashfords difficulty is the 11 games he played in 15/16 - he scored 5 goals in 870 mins and outperformed XG significantly (5 goals from 3.03 XG). The reality here is simple, he was either the worlds best striker or he got on a hot streak and everything he touched turned to goal.
Since then, his XG to goal rate has returned to the mean and the Data shows he doesn't finish his chances he gets. He simply isn't good enough & the data is starting to back it up.
Since then, his XG to goal rate has returned to the mean and the Data shows he doesn't finish his chances he gets. He simply isn't good enough & the data is starting to back it up.
I was surprised how poor he took his left footed shots on Saturday. His technique was that of teenage footballer. He has to think and take an extra step when shooting with the left and this usually gives the defender time to block. The other thing I noticed is he rarely bends his knee shooting from the left. It's usually a straight leg, again, like a teenage footballer who hasn't practiced properly. Any footballer knows you get most of your power with the knee.
Yeah it's complete nonsense. Up until 16 he was tiny & not even particularly fast because his legs were so short. He was always known a technical player & played a lot of his football in the younger age groups as a number 10 & when he started playing for the u18s as an u16 it was his technique that stood out. It was only really in his 2nd year as an u18 that he started to use his pace a lot more because the coaching staff wanted him to be more direct.
I think we're not on the same page on what is a natural goalscorer. You seem to see it's more synonymous with finishing but I see it as more like what you are describing. The key to scoring many goals is to be in the correct position for that to happen, not to belt in a shot from outside the box or scoring 1v1's. Players that are natural goalscorers get into these positions more often because of their off the ball movement.
Remember what you thought of Rashford after his first 3 games ?
Either you believe young footballers are not good
Or you believe if you're good enough you're old enough
Can't keep flipping between the two to whatever suits Rashford the most
He's paid at the MUFC leading striker level
Asking less of him makes no sense
Or you believe if you're good enough you're old enough
Can't keep flipping between the two to whatever suits Rashford the most
He's paid at the MUFC leading striker level
Asking less of him makes no sense
Not at all. Aubameyang's goal that I gave as an example of a natural goal scorer was all in the anticipation and awareness. Not about the finishing.
That goal was all about a natural goal scorer's ability to:
a) read where the ball will land in any situation. ( e.g See a possible defensive mistake before it occurs)
B) to be aware of the goal and the keeper position at all times. So much so with a single look way in advance of the ball arriving, they innately know where the keeper is and where they will place the ball beyond him if they make any decent contact with the ball, once they get to it. It can't ever be taught.
A player who is good at movement rather would get in the same position and 9/10would miss. Either hitting the post, hitting wide, or giving the keeper a chance to save, unless they have been honing their finishing skill. Sterling is the embodiment of this. I'm next to certain he'd miss that chance Aubameyang scored from because he'd have to look again to see where the keeper was. Robbing himself of that split second to beat the keeper....
I assure you. Their off the ball movement is secondary. Its their awareness and anticipation ability that is key. A natural goal scorer will always 00find the ball, even in a crowded box , surrounded by 2 markers. Precisely because they will read where it will end up before anyone else. Not because they MOVE better. They can be inherently lazy players But a natural goal scorer will always get to the ball first.
Strikers/attacking players who are not naturals at anticipation and goal awareness can compensate for a lack of that ability, by working the percentages with excellent movement. If one constantly makes near post, far post, shoulder of last man and blindside runs. Inevitably the number of tap in opportunities will sky Rocket. It's something Ole keeps talking about in press conferences and what he is clearly trying to teach Rashford and Martial. I believe if they are truly working at it, we are going to see the benefits over the next 6 months
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Yep, and in relation to those performances Rashford has either not progressed or even regressed.
I agree with those that are saying he is now earning enough to warrant the expectations.
That's all off the ball movement you're describing. Off the ball movement is anything you're doing when you don't have the ball when you're team is in possession.
It's not that easy to teach even though the concept is relatively simple. Ian Rush has been teaching kids all over Europe the basics of finishing his entire post-football life but those basic principles aren't all that common at top level or at least aren't as common as they should be. These players don't just strike to me having trained that way, maybe I'm wrong. Can't see I've seen much improvement in 8 months at least.
You are still not quote getting what I've been trying to put cross. What separates a natural goal scorer who uses instinctual ability, from a player with excellent off ball movement, who can finish is the ability to read where a ball will land before anyone else. Its what's goes on in the head that separates them. A natural hitman takes a mental picture of the goal and where the keeper is, then runs several scenarios in the head of where and what could happen to the ball, in mere seconds, then their innate ability enables them to pick out the right trajectory, and what mistake will be made to let them take advantage, every single time. Then they pounce. If one is not aware of that process, one can see them score that type of goal Aubameyang did and easily be deceived into thinking it was just the movement that made the goal. Rather than what I described
Think about it, how many times have we seen lazy, slow players who people used to call 'poachers' still beat people 2 times as fast, taller and quicker to a ball, who were marking them? [inzaghi, in his late 20's] And when a natural goal scorer is additionally blessed with movement, pace and power they are usually nigh unplayable.
At United currently, our two starting strikers do not have great striker off the ball movement. I suspect because they've spent so much time on the flanks. That is why in and around they box they still pass up super easy opportunities to get goals, because they'd don't make runs a striker should make and its something Ole talks about constantly. I also believe him when he states it can be improved. I mean, he mastered the art of making such runs when he was a player
I agree. He hasn’t excelled how we hoped he would have, and neither has Martial after his amazing start. I think a lot of it was to do with previous managers playing them wide or not playing them at all. And now you have a manager who plays them all the time.
My hope is that they are still just a bit too young to be regular goal scorers and and by 23-24 they will start hitting 20+ goals a season.
Thank you. This is what I remember too reading from those times.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/marcus-rashford.354968/
This was the thread from 2012 when there was talk about his technical ability. Funny how narrative was set that he was never impressive/standout for academy and just a speed merchant.
You're still describing off the ball movement and then saying it's different from off the ball movement and thinking I'm misunderstanding you. I'm not. I think what you consider off the ball movement is like a run a player makes in the NFL, something that's drilled into them doing. That's part of it but not all of it. Off the ball movement is what the phrase implies, movement when you don't have the ball, specifically in our context when the team is in possession.
Let's go back to what you responded to in the first place.
We're talking about the same things here but we're using the same words to mean different things. I agree that Rashford can get better simply by training but I don't think he'll ever be close to be a 20+ goal player unless padded by penalties.
That might be the case yes and it probably can be improved but I don't think it's something that everyone improves at and I don't think it's easy either. I at least have not seen any progress. Rashford can counter, as in run straight forward when we receive possession but 3 of our 4 games have been against teams sitting back and we've created less chances than our opponents despite dominating possession. If what Ole is saying is actually true then he's failing at his job. Personally I just don't think Rashford is good enough to lead given the quality of the team if we are to aspire to play in the CL again via qualification in the PL.
I'm not a big fan of the Inzaghi comparison. He was a pacy player in his youth that declined quickly contributed little to overall play. Blessed in his career by playing in front of Zidane and Del Piero at Juve and Rui Costa, Seedorf, Pirlo and Shevchenko at Milan but still only reached 20 goals once and that he did with Atalanta. I get your point but I think he's vastly overrated and his style of play doesn't cut it today. No way that a player of ours could get away with being "lazy". Messi is the only one in football who's allowed that but that's another discussion.
My point is simply this. A natural goal scorer will hurt you regardless of work rate or speed. Simply because of that unteachable ability to predict where a ball will always end up during a give a run of play.
But with dedicated training and application. A player with speed and work rate can be taught to make the kind of runs that will give goal joy. By simply playing percentages
I agree. I however don't think the current United team is playing percentages very well from any position in attack. Not sure what's being done.
I never rate him as player simply because his decision making were abysmal , he can have all the physical trait , speed and explosiveness it doesn't matter without functioning footballing brain. Knowing where or to pass or shoot , where or when to run or hold is the most important trait as an attacker , I hope he can someday learn all those traits but the problem is human can't add their IQ no matter how hard they learn. Without good decision making he will be forever an average footballer.
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While he is still young, he has played three full seasons for us and is on a very nice contract... so I am expecting him to do a lot more this season. These expectations may be a little high but he should be getting at least 20 goals in all comps this season.
All so called obstacles like Zlatan, Lukaku and Sanchez have been removed for him, so show us what you can do.
At the moment I’m seeing Walcott-Arsenal parallels taking place.
All so called obstacles like Zlatan, Lukaku and Sanchez have been removed for him, so show us what you can do.
At the moment I’m seeing Walcott-Arsenal parallels taking place.
Our current set of strikers simply don't make striker runs consistently. Even tough our supply to the box has improved thanks to a revived right flank
But still a lack of a 10 is robbing us of midfield control.
Way too early to tell, but I was very pleasantly surprised with Greenwood’s movement in this regard. He scored a goal in pre-season from gambling to go between two defenders, and he has done this a bunch of times when he’s played. Was tearing my hair out these last years watching Lukaku and Rashford refuse to gamble on a cross either between defenders or first post.
As a former striker I can’t deal with it! If you play the percentages like that you’ll end up with 4-10 goals from these chances a season.
It is fair to have this expectation when his salary is higher than Aubameyang , Lacazette, Vardy, Mane, and on par with Salah.
You say all his obstacles have been removed and yet he is still not being played in what he would regard as his best position, as Martial seems to have been given priority there. Therefore he'll still have an excuse.
Yep. I'm sorry, but we the club have put Marcus 'Rashy' Rashford into the 'Big Dog League' in terms of salary. Considering he wanted even more than he got, by all accounts (weren't there rumours of 300k a week?), he also clearly sees himself as a big player. So it's time to prove it. Unfortunately, I think the club have made a stupid mistake and 'Rashy' himself simply capitalised on being the big home-grown talent that the club is basing it's image around at present - I think he's parlayed that standing into a huge contract as opposed to truly believing himself to be one of the best out there.
I don't see the skill-set in Rashford that will amount to world class. Lacks way too many key attributes that aren't exactly teachable.
I don't see the skill-set in Rashford that will amount to world class. Lacks way too many key attributes that aren't exactly teachable.
What a load of trash.
He was undersized till 16 and our academy doesn't keep scholars based on how athletic they are but on their footballing talents.
He's our very own Theo Walcott.
if you're referring to previous seasons then fair but this seaosn in particular Martial has been incredibly consistent in his past three games. He has made every run and even more. But like you say we have found a way to be unfortunate by lacking a good number 10. Thats just United nowadays. Solve one problem only to purposely create more.
htf does he start over Sancho?
nice 30 yard shot 
nice 30 yard shot
He morally assisted that goal.
I will repeat what I’ve been saying for 3 yrs.
Tall lanky players don’t make good strikers as they lack natural balance. He’s quick and thrives with space behind but will never have the dexterity required to manouvre in minimal space and that’s why Guardiola buys shorter players. James has a much higher ceiling than Rashford who I believe has peaked
Tall lanky players don’t make good strikers as they lack natural balance. He’s quick and thrives with space behind but will never have the dexterity required to manouvre in minimal space and that’s why Guardiola buys shorter players. James has a much higher ceiling than Rashford who I believe has peaked
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