Is it time to burst “Rashy’s” bubble?

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The problem with Rashford is all linked to the bigger problem with the club as a whole. At no club with ambition to win things would Rashford be the main man like he now is at Utd, he'd be at best an impact player off the bench, at Utd he's expected to be the player to take us to the next level, something he's simply not good enough to do. You only need to look at the front 3s at Liverpool and City then Utd's to see a huge drop off in class. Then there's the bench which is laughable, there's nobody to keep these players on their toes as the squad has been neglected so bad that the "depth" = a 17 year old, again something that wouldn't happen at any club with an ambition to win things.

The neglect at Utd is a disgrace and I don't really know what those in charge are thinking, as it's only a matter of time before you start devaluing the club massively if you continue to take us down the path of also rans like they are currently doing.
 
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He plays with so much frustration. He smacks every ball more often than not. Power isnt always the answer. Same with his pointless freekicks from 30+yards out.
 
RazorOz said:
The problem with Rashford is all linked to the bigger problem with the club as a whole. At no club with ambition to win things would Rashford be the main man like he now is at Utd, he'd be at best an impact player off the bench, at Utd he's expected to be the player to take us to the next level, something he's simply not good enough to do. You only need to look at the front 3s at Liverpool and City then Utd's to see a huge drop off in class. Then there's the bench which is laughable, there's nobody to keep these players on their toes as the squad has been neglected so bad that the "depth" = a 17 year old, again something that wouldn't happen at any club with an ambition to win things.

The neglect at Utd is a disgrace and I don't really know what those in charge are thinking, as it's only a matter of time before you start devaluing the club massively if you continue to take us down the path of also rans like they are currently doing.
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Completely agree.
 
RazorOz said:
The problem with Rashford is all linked to the bigger problem with the club as a whole. At no club with ambition to win things would Rashford be the main man like he now is at Utd, he'd be at best an impact player off the bench, at Utd he's expected to be the player to take us to the next level, something he's simply not good enough to do. You only need to look at the front 3s at Liverpool and City then Utd's to see a huge drop off in class. Then there's the bench which is laughable, there's nobody to keep these players on their toes as the squad has been neglected so bad that the "depth" = a 17 year old, again something that wouldn't happen at any club with an ambition to win things.

The neglect at Utd is a disgrace and I don't really know what those in charge are thinking, as it's only a matter of time before you start devaluing the club massively if you continue to take us down the path of also rans like they are currently doing.
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Spot on. He should be a substitute, an impact player developing his skills. There should be a world class zlatan type striker starting ahead of him.

Our owners are killing this club.
 
Stacks said:
Dunno why you felt the need to show how much of a top red you are. United bring through youths but not at the expense of success. We are not Arsenal under Wenger. I recall Giuseppe Rossi (arguably our most talented player in academy for past 20 years) didn't get the chance here to mature and neither did Pique, simply because there were better options. United first team is not and has never been an academy. There has always been a need to compete so the players have to deliver despite their age. I am not so certain neither Rashford or Martial will become world class but I am happy to have the both of them. My concern with Rashy is that he has shown no progress over 3 seasons and is still doing the same stupid shit so perhaps he needs better coaching.
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Thanks for that. Not really thought of myself as a 'top red' before.

Rossi was renowned as a pure finisher - not what we needed at the time and if that is your opinion that he was our most talented graduate then fair enough. The fact is he didn't make it wheeras someone like Welbeck did who was an important option for us. He was trusted in the big games and one time even ahead of Rooney. Some of our most talented academy products - Terry Cooke for eg - never made it. So hence the caution with the current crop but Greenwood has been included in all 3 match day squads and made an appearance in each so he clearly has something to offer. He has not been fazed by it and must be continuing to work hard in training to keep himself in contention each week.

Pique wanted to go home. It may have made a difference if Ferdinand and Vidic were older. I think he and Evans would have been brilliant together but like Fabregas the threat was always there from Barcelona. I think he would have gone eventually.

The difference between us and Arsenal is that they bought in quantity and the cream of their crop had bad injuries - Diaby and Wilshere. That is just bad luck.

In terms of our young players. Those with enormous potential are/were introduced / bought early. Players such as Whiteside, Best, Sharpe, Giggs and Ronaldo fulfilled their potential with us (Whiteside and Sharpe were undone later by injuries). So they have to be very good to make it.

I think Rashford is very good and he has improved. It is easy being the novice, the unknown but as soon as you become a regular, teams know enough about you to try and stop you. He and Martial have had no choice but to improve otherwise they would have been out the door. First half of last season Rashford was snatching at chances when one on one and since Ole has arrived his composure has vastly improved. He looks like a real finisher now and he will add the tap ins I am sure of that.

He is an england regular and at 21 his record for us is incredible as are some of his performances. He has 2 in 3 already this term including a MOM performance. All he did was to let his frustration show against CP but then so many great players before him at that age have done the exact same thing.

Ole tried to get a little bit of forward experience to help them. A bit like Larsson did with Ronaldo and Rooney but it was a very difficult market. So we go with these knowing that they may be inconsistent now but that they will become less so.
 
I think there is a bit of overreaction going on here. "Rashy" as ole likes to call him is a decent player. He isn't and I doubt will ever be a top player. But his on top player money hence his trying too hard to live up to the hype. I reckon we may be making the same mistake with hudson odoi with all this 200k a week nonsense talk going about.

Young players this day are not prepared to earn their stripes before demanding big wages and all the top clubs are just panicking and giving them whatever they want due to the fear of losing them and having to pay 100 million for replacement.

If it wasn't for Van Gaal, Rashford will probably be competing for playing time with DCL at Everton now.
 
K13 said:
Thanks for that. Not really thought of myself as a 'top red' before.

Rossi was renowned as a pure finisher - not what we needed at the time and if that is your opinion that he was our most talented graduate then fair enough. The fact is he didn't make it wheeras someone like Welbeck did who was an important option for us. He was trusted in the big games and one time even ahead of Rooney. Some of our most talented academy products - Terry Cooke for eg - never made it. So hence the caution with the current crop but Greenwood has been included in all 3 match day squads and made an appearance in each so he clearly has something to offer. He has not been fazed by it and must be continuing to work hard in training to keep himself in contention each week.

Pique wanted to go home. It may have made a difference if Ferdinand and Vidic were older. I think he and Evans would have been brilliant together but like Fabregas the threat was always there from Barcelona. I think he would have gone eventually.

The difference between us and Arsenal is that they bought in quantity and the cream of their crop had bad injuries - Diaby and Wilshere. That is just bad luck.

In terms of our young players. Those with enormous potential are/were introduced / bought early. Players such as Whiteside, Best, Sharpe, Giggs and Ronaldo fulfilled their potential with us (Whiteside and Sharpe were undone later by injuries). So they have to be very good to make it.

I think Rashford is very good and he has improved. It is easy being the novice, the unknown but as soon as you become a regular, teams know enough about you to try and stop you. He and Martial have had no choice but to improve otherwise they would have been out the door. First half of last season Rashford was snatching at chances when one on one and since Ole has arrived his composure has vastly improved. He looks like a real finisher now and he will add the tap ins I am sure of that.

He is an england regular and at 21 his record for us is incredible as are some of his performances. He has 2 in 3 already this term including a MOM performance. All he did was to let his frustration show against CP but then so many great players before him at that age have done the exact same thing.

Ole tried to get a little bit of forward experience to help them. A bit like Larsson did with Ronaldo and Rooney but it was a very difficult market. So we go with these knowing that they may be inconsistent now but that they will become less so.
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I agree with much of this. When I suggested he hasn't improved I am including his break through in 2016 when he was actually a very decent finisher and poacher. He was popping up in the spaces in the box, almost like an instinctive striker but I feel in the pursuit of trying to become this well rounded complete forward, he could risk becoming a master of none, in a sense.
 
I think he is on a hiding to nothing, it's not his fault that, through mismanagement at all levels of the club, he is now thrust into the position of being a first-team player for us. It is crazy that we have put him on higher wages than Sergio Aguero, but again it is the management of the club that sanctioned that deal. He seems like a good guy who cares about the club, he's not good enough to lead us to the next level but what can we do other than get behind him and hope he over performs?
 
Rashford is running the risk of turning into Welbeck, so much potential but in the end, fizzled out, needs to concentrate more on doing the basics rather than what looks good on re-runs, I think he has forgotten about this, maybe he has even started believing his own hype, I have not seen any vast improvement since has been in the first team.

If anything it appears as though there has been a regression in his ability to do the simple things, not sure if this is down to the constant managerial rotation or his position rotation, I think United are crying out for an experienced striker, someone the younger lads in the team can actually learn from, he has time on his age on his side, but he will be 26 or 27 before he knows it and still doing the same silly things.

The basics, in the long run, will give you the foundation to create more complex abilities, so god knows what they do in training because do they even teach them the basics any more?
 
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Stacks said:
I agree with much of this. When I suggested he hasn't improved I am including his break through in 2016 when he was actually a very decent finisher and poacher. He was popping up in the spaces in the box, almost like an instinctive striker but I feel in the pursuit of trying to become this well rounded complete forward, he could risk becoming a master of none, in a sense.
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Absolutely his breakthrough year was exhilarating and he scored some really important goals.

Do you not think that all the top strikers now are more rounded players? I am struggling to think of one that only scores. I think the false 9 tactic has left pure poachers out of the picture such as the likes of Sturridge. Even Aguero and Kane who are ace poachers seem to get involved in the build up and run the channels. There are others like Firmino and Benzema who link everything together. Do you prefer him in one of these roles?

I personally like him on the flanks because when Martial drops deep he is timing his runs into the space left brilliantly and creating havoc. Now he has the temperament/maturity to finish most of these one v ones off. There is also a little more space out on the flanks and the likes of Henry, Ronaldo and Messi all learn't their trade out there so I don't think it will do him much harm if he spends a bit of time out there.

What do you think? Or did you have in mind a completely different role?
 
Yep he needs to nail the basics. Sometimes his control is the level of a league 2 player. He has tried to emulate Ronaldo in so much of his play without having the basic technique of Phil Neville. There’s a lot of promise there though - that goal against Chelsea was pure quality.
 
Rashford along with Lingard are still first picks for England so In their minds they think they are doing all the right things. Southgate dropping them may be the best thing that could happen and on current form it should happen very soon.
 
padzilla said:
I think he is on a hiding to nothing, it's not his fault that, through mismanagement at all levels of the club, he is now thrust into the position of being a first-team player for us. It is crazy that we have put him on higher wages than Sergio Aguero, but again it is the management of the club that sanctioned that deal. He seems like a good guy who cares about the club, he's not good enough to lead us to the next level but what can we do other than get behind him and hope he over performs?
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That would be crazy but there's not a chance that's true! :lol:
 
padzilla said:
I think he is on a hiding to nothing, it's not his fault that, through mismanagement at all levels of the club, he is now thrust into the position of being a first-team player for us. It is crazy that we have put him on higher wages than Sergio Aguero, but again it is the management of the club that sanctioned that deal. He seems like a good guy who cares about the club, he's not good enough to lead us to the next level but what can we do other than get behind him and hope he over performs?
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No, Rashford isn't on Aguero wages but we've entrusted him a role of Sergio Aguero in the side which at his age is completely bonkers.

I feel sorry for him because in attack we still play such primitive football, players will look for an option in middle. After few seconds someone will come close to receive a pass only to send it back to where it came from. Eventually when this leads us nowhere, we play it to our fullbacks (who are not good crosser of the ball) or to strikers playing as wingers who like to cut inside in an already crowded central space. There is no vision or purpose with which we attack, it is all so evident. You never seem to understand what we are trying to do in possession, what do you expect from a 21yo who's been coached by 3 different managers in 3 seasons to do in such a scenario? 3 managers under whom we've looked equally clueless in attack?

His role in the side is that of a star player and therefore he keeps trying dumb things throughout the 90 minutes, a well managed team wouldn't entrust such a young player with these responsibilities and a well coached team would be gradually improving Rashfords' game year after year. We are neither at the moment and that's the reason we're struggling. Rashford is just a symptom of the setup we've employed.
 
It’s ridiculous to have a go at Rashford and question his ability because of what happened at the weekend.But it’s equally ridiculous that Man United expects a 21 year old to lead the line and score 25-30 goals a season...
 
Burst his bubble and then what, loosen up the purse strings and actually spend money on a world class talent fit for a club like Manchester United? Are you out of your mind?
 
K13 said:
Absolutely his breakthrough year was exhilarating and he scored some really important goals.

Do you not think that all the top strikers now are more rounded players? I am struggling to think of one that only scores. I think the false 9 tactic has left pure poachers out of the picture such as the likes of Sturridge. Even Aguero and Kane who are ace poachers seem to get involved in the build up and run the channels. There are others like Firmino and Benzema who link everything together. Do you prefer him in one of these roles?

I personally like him on the flanks because when Martial drops deep he is timing his runs into the space left brilliantly and creating havoc. Now he has the temperament/maturity to finish most of these one v ones off. There is also a little more space out on the flanks and the likes of Henry, Ronaldo and Messi all learn't their trade out there so I don't think it will do him much harm if he spends a bit of time out there.

What do you think? Or did you have in mind a completely different role?
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An electric striker who runs in behind like Vardy. Maybe even early career Eto'o. I don't feel being involved in the build up is his strengths. He doesn't have the guile of an Aguero or Benzema as Kun started his career as a support striker and later became a 9. Benzema was more a 9 and a half. I feel he (Rashford) is trying to force it a bit.
 
Ronaldo between ages 18-21 had many of these complaints levelled at him.
 
Nikelesh Reddy said:
It’s ridiculous to have a go at Rashford and question his ability because of what happened at the weekend.But it’s equally ridiculous that Man United expects a 21 year old to lead the line and score 25-30 goals a season...
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Like we did with Rooney?

Or Newcastle did with Andy Cole?

Or Arsenal did With Henry?

Or which ever other club i pluck out of the air that has had the same situation?

Marcus Rashford is a decent striker, he is never going to be anything other than that, what’s ridiculous is not that we are going into a season with a 21 year old leading the line (which we arent Martial is our front man but thats not the point), but that we are going into a season with nothing more than a couple of “decent” forwards, who are on world class money.
 
padzilla said:
I think he is on a hiding to nothing, it's not his fault that, through mismanagement at all levels of the club, he is now thrust into the position of being a first-team player for us. It is crazy that we have put him on higher wages than Sergio Aguero, but again it is the management of the club that sanctioned that deal. He seems like a good guy who cares about the club, he's not good enough to lead us to the next level but what can we do other than get behind him and hope he over performs?
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That can’t be right. He’s on higher wages than Aguero?! :wenger:
 
Stacks said:
An electric striker who runs in behind like Vardy. Maybe even early career Eto'o. I don't feel being involved in the build up is his strengths. He doesn't have the guile of an Aguero or Benzema as Kun started his career as a support striker and later became a 9. Benzema was more a 9 and a half. I feel he (Rashford) is trying to force it a bit.
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I agree re the electric pace and the running in behind but don't you think he cuts in quite nicely from the left as well?
 
padzilla said:
It's true according to James Richardson's Totally Football podcast.
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And where is he getting his info? I've listened to that podcast and often their talking points are based off what the papers are saying.

I've not seen any consistent figures for footballers wages. Its 150 here, 200 there 250 rising to 300 somewhere else.

That's besides the fact that I'd be highly dubious about any official figures for City's wages actually being the total the club are paying.
 
Man of Leisure said:
That can’t be right. He’s on higher wages than Aguero?! :wenger:
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Depends..I m very skeptic of how City report their accounts.
Remember when it emerged that Mancini had "two salaries", one of which was not official?
 
sparx99 said:
Ronaldo between ages 18-21 had many of these complaints levelled at him.
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He wasn’t positioned as our key attacker and most certainly wasn’t one of the clubs highest earners at the time. We had RVN leading the line until Ronaldo naturally took his place.

Rashford has been positioned in this role without organically making it is. Ronaldo took off 2nd half of 05/06 season. I believe he was 22 that season. I could be wrong.
 
RazorOz said:
The problem with Rashford is all linked to the bigger problem with the club as a whole. At no club with ambition to win things would Rashford be the main man like he now is at Utd, he'd be at best an impact player off the bench, at Utd he's expected to be the player to take us to the next level, something he's simply not good enough to do. You only need to look at the front 3s at Liverpool and City then Utd's to see a huge drop off in class. Then there's the bench which is laughable, there's nobody to keep these players on their toes as the squad has been neglected so bad that the "depth" = a 17 year old, again something that wouldn't happen at any club with an ambition to win things.

The neglect at Utd is a disgrace and I don't really know what those in charge are thinking, as it's only a matter of time before you start devaluing the club massively if you continue to take us down the path of also rans like they are currently doing.
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Pretty much this.

Also, Ronaldo scored 23 goals for us in the 06-07 season. I'd be surprised if Rashford, who is at the same age, doesn't have 20 by the end of this one.

We won the title in the 06-07 season, btw. CR7 had Rooney (who scored 23 as well), Giggs, Scholes, Carrick, Saha and Ole himself going forward, with VDS, Evra, Vidic, Rio and Gary Neville behind him. And SAF managing him.

We're putting Rashford under ridiculous pressure, thanks to our terrible management and recruitment policies. While it doesn't help our chances right now if we keep wasting set pieces, it shows what a remarkable attitude he has at a mere 21 years of age that he backs himself every single time. He's faced racism, he lives in the era of toxic social media backslashes everytime he misses, and yet he gets his head down, stays humble and keeps believing in himself.

Feck bubbles. I fecking hope he succeeds big time and wins a bunch of silverware for us, because he has the talent, attitude and desire to do it.
 
sparx99 said:
Ronaldo between ages 18-21 had many of these complaints levelled at him.
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I really wish people would stop bringing all-time great players into these debates - anyone with eyes can see that Rashford will never follow the same trajectory Ronaldo, so comparing records or their progression or whatever is just pointless. I think far too many people on here (not aimed at you necessarily) analyse players with spreadsheets, rather than watch games.

McTominay, James, Rashford, Gomes, Chong, Garner, Greenwood...all MIGHT become world class superstars but it has feck all to do with Ronaldo's goalscoring record was at 'X appearances', or because 'Zidane was playing for Bordeaux at 25, so Martial could still win the Ballon D'or'. For every Ronaldo, there are 1000's of failed, overrated and mediocre players, that don't improve or blossom. Apart from the blindingly obvious that young players generally get better with age and experience, comparing stats is a poor alternative to actually watching players.
 
Bags of potential, but massively over-rated cause he's English.
 
I think it's time to burst the bubble of the people here who can't seem to handle the fact that you support your team whatever - you take the bad with the good and you realise everything including football goes in cycles. It literally took decades for Manchester United post Matt Busby to get back to the top of English football.

Alex Ferguson was brought in to a discontented, perpetual great run in the FA Cup, not near winning the title Manchester United. What he accomplished is rare, not the norm in football. Ole was brought in to steady the ship and bring back United's identity - he can't do it in 3 or 13 or 30 games. He and the lads are re-building.

Marcus Rashford is a young lad with a great attitude as Louis Van Gaal made a point of saying. Ask him if he is the finished product - he would tell you no. He is still learning and willing to learn. Stop slagging off or dismissing our honest lads who are working to get United back where it belongs. He has a great instructor in Ole and others will assist him.

I believe if some United supporters really can't handle being patient and supporting the club and the lads doing their best as most are, then please POQ to Manchester City. You sing when we're winning, you go overboard with negativity and nonsense when United isn't winning and genuine fans know these are the times to show support.
 
izzydiggler said:
I really wish people would stop bringing all-time great players into these debates - anyone with eyes can see that Rashford will never follow the same trajectory Ronaldo, so comparing records or their progression or whatever is just pointless. I think far too many people on here (not aimed at you necessarily) analyse players with spreadsheets, rather than watch games.

McTominay, James, Rashford, Gomes, Chong, Garner, Greenwood...all MIGHT become world-class superstars but it has feck all to do with Ronaldo's goalscoring record was at 'X appearances', or because 'Zidane was playing for Bordeaux at 25, so Martial could still win the Ballon D'or'. For every Ronaldo, there are 1000's of failed, overrated and mediocre players, that don't improve or blossom. Apart from the blindingly obvious that young players generally get better with age and experience, comparing stats is a poor alternative to actually watching players.
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The point I was making is that performances at ages 18-21 aren't necessarily indicative of how good a player will become. I think people have lost sight of how to judge young players. Inconsistency and poor decision making are absolutely expected for young players. Whether they reach their potential is massively dependant on improving those two things. All things considered, Rashford is way ahead of the curve in terms of his development versus other players of a similar age. Compare him to Sterling at the same age or Harry Kane or Lewandowski or Drogba etc. Players like Michael Owen who was amazing aged 18-21 are the exception rather than the rule.

As others have said it is gross mismanagement that a club of our size is so reliant on the form of a 21-year old striker. He should be learning his craft out of the glare but instead, he is expected to perform like 27-year old Lewandowski. It's not a fair expectation.
 
  • 21
  • On High wages
  • Guaranteed starter for his boyhood club
  • Number 10 shirt (this still means something to me)
  • Freekick duties
  • Shoots on sight and no one cares that he has never scored a long range goal
  • Regular for his country

What a life.
 
Is rashford good enough to start matches especially if he is starting out on the left wing? When James was put there late against palace I felt more was happening than what was seen with rashford. Perhaps rashy needs to be competing with martial for the striker role?
 
RedStarUnited said:
  • 21
  • On High wages
  • Guaranteed starter for his boyhood club
  • Number 10 shirt (this still means something to me)
  • Freekick duties
  • Shoots on sight and no one cares that he has never scored a long range goal
  • Regular for his country
What a life.
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Jealous much.
 
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